A Bitcoin Mine In Navajo Nation Flares Tensions (vice.com) 172
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Motherboard: Just outside of Shiprock, New Mexico, on land belonging to the Navajo Nation, a Bitcoin mine owned and operated by a Canadian investment company consumes seven megawatts of power each month -- enough to power 19,600 homes. The operation is run by a firm called WestBlock Capital and mines between 23 and 25 bitcoins per month, equivalent to roughly $1.4 to $1.6 million USD, with a majority of its power coming from renewable solar energy. According to a press release from the mine's parent company, Luxxfolio, the mine accesses these resources "at significantly reduced cost in the bottom decile of global power costs."
But all around the mine, Dine -- citizens of the Navajo Nation -- live without electricity or running water in their homes. The Navajo Tribal Utility Authority (NTUA), the nation's non-profit utility enterprise that initially partnered with Calgary, Alberta blockchain company WestBlock on the mine project, is working to connect more homes on the nation to basic utilities. A short documentary detailing the project by Bitcoin mining hosting company Compass was released last week, framing the mine as a means to achieve sovereignty and economic prosperity for the nation. But some Dine are bristling at the idea of a foreign Bitcoin mining company getting access to dirt cheap electricity while residents in Navajo Nation live without basic utilities like power and running water.
Tyler Puente, who commented on a since-deleted Facebook post from Navajo Nation President Jonathan Nez's Facebook page about the mine's groundbreaking ceremony that Navajo leadership are allowing outsiders to take advantage of Dine, told Motherboard that he sees the Bitcoin mine as a form of "financial colonialism." "I think Bitcoin companies prey on communities like my own," said Puente. "My perspective is that we're being used." To some Dine, WestBlock project resembles a form of crypto-colonialism, a term that describes the exploitation of lands and resources by cryptocurrency and blockchain interests, often under the guise of progressive or egalitarian rhetorics for the host communities.
But all around the mine, Dine -- citizens of the Navajo Nation -- live without electricity or running water in their homes. The Navajo Tribal Utility Authority (NTUA), the nation's non-profit utility enterprise that initially partnered with Calgary, Alberta blockchain company WestBlock on the mine project, is working to connect more homes on the nation to basic utilities. A short documentary detailing the project by Bitcoin mining hosting company Compass was released last week, framing the mine as a means to achieve sovereignty and economic prosperity for the nation. But some Dine are bristling at the idea of a foreign Bitcoin mining company getting access to dirt cheap electricity while residents in Navajo Nation live without basic utilities like power and running water.
Tyler Puente, who commented on a since-deleted Facebook post from Navajo Nation President Jonathan Nez's Facebook page about the mine's groundbreaking ceremony that Navajo leadership are allowing outsiders to take advantage of Dine, told Motherboard that he sees the Bitcoin mine as a form of "financial colonialism." "I think Bitcoin companies prey on communities like my own," said Puente. "My perspective is that we're being used." To some Dine, WestBlock project resembles a form of crypto-colonialism, a term that describes the exploitation of lands and resources by cryptocurrency and blockchain interests, often under the guise of progressive or egalitarian rhetorics for the host communities.
Then do something. (Score:4, Insightful)
The Navajo nation should require that 100% of it's residents in it's territory be connected to power before any "excess capacity" energy goes into the bitcoin mining. Otherwise, yes, it's exploitive, just like it was hundreds of years ago.
Re:Then do something. (Score:4, Insightful)
Can't they just charge a price per kilowatt-hour just under what it costs in the lowest alternative, then pocket the difference? Then use that to pay for infrastructure upgrades? Or is the Navajo nation so corrupt that they will use the money to run off and buy liquor and booze or something? Surely a contract can be written to earmark the money somehow. It makes a hell of a lot more sense to draw long term revenues from the Bitcoin farm than to accept some kind of one-time offering for infrastructure.
Re:Then do something. (Score:5, Insightful)
Read TFA. The energy was sitting there unused, that's why WestBlock was able to make this deal. Logistics make it too costly to build the infrastructure out to the rural areas. It's not WestBlock's fault that that situation existed, but it did. They are using generation capacity that wasn't otherwise being used, the utility is getting paid for that, and the Navajo is getting significant revenue from the land lease and taxes. Everybody wins, but there's always some bitch got to whine about it.
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I've been trying to get to the bottom of this. It seems that the Navajo power company had excess capacity. Due to lack of infrastructure they had 15MW of power they couldn't sell to anyone.
The bitcoin miners came in and did a deal where they would pay low rates for half of it, with the idea being that at least then there is some ROI for the Navajo and they can use the money to build the infrastructure they need to get that power to members of their nation.
The issue seems to be that the low price being paid
Re: Then do something. (Score:2)
I've been trying to get to the bottom of this.
Why; did it look like a two-year-old?
Re: Then do something. (Score:2)
And it must be megawatthours, not megawatts each month.
Re: Then do something. (Score:4, Insightful)
And it must be megawatthours, not megawatts each month.
TFA says "seven megawatts of power per month" which makes it clear it was written by an idiot.
But it also says "enough to power 19,600 homes for a month." Seven megawatt-hours is way too little for that.
The most plausible explanation is that the bitcoin mine consumes seven megawatts of power. That would be 360 watts per household, which is low but plausible for poor households in a mild climate.
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Apparently they have an excess of 15MW of capacity. They sold half of it to the crypto miners, because they can't sell it to anyone else.
It's not clear why they have an excess of 15MW. Maybe someone can fill us in.
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Realistically the would have to move the solar panels to the houses, but that then involves batteries and all kinds of ot
Re: Then do something. (Score:3, Insightful)
They had the last 100-something years to do that though. The fact these people have no electric or water has nothing to do with a few months of Bitcoin mining.
The energy was being produced and went unused, basically their government wasted tons of subsidies on green solar energy boondoggles when the community wasnâ(TM)t even connected to a grid.
So you create production but you donâ(TM)t have demand, because they havenâ(TM)t been wired in, obviously if someone is willing to pay for the energy
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I live near the Navajo Nation. I don't think you quite understand how large and dispersed it really is.
Indeed. The Navajo Nation territory is larger than 10 U.S. states but with way fewer people than any of them.
It is bigger than West Virginia but slightly smaller than South Carolina.
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The Navajo Nation and surrounding land is the only place I've hit "scan" on my car's FM radio and had it go around and around without finding anything.
Re: Then do something. (Score:4, Insightful)
The indian nation could choose to do that, but who would build the infrastructure to make that happen?
If anyone on the reservation wants electricity they need only go out and buy a bunch of solar panels, thats what the crypto-miners did...
Oh, wait, they have no money, and since they dont vote they dont get infrastructure investments from politicians. If you were to wire the indian reservation, they'd then need more money to buy appliances and devices to use that electricity - but they have no money to fo that either. And if they somehow got someone else to fund and build the infrastructure, and they also found someone to give them tvs, washer/dryers, A/C, etc. how would they pay their electric bills? They still have no money.
But yes, you captured their entire plight with your pithy retort that the native americans are suffering because they were weak negotiators... /SMH
Re: Then do something. (Score:4, Informative)
The crypto miners didn't build the solar facility. The Navajo did, at least that's my understanding. Their problem is that due to lack of infrastructure they have excess power they can't sell. The crypto miners agreed to buy half of it at low cost and built their facility nearby. In other words they took advantage of the lack of money for infrastructure to get that energy to where it could be sold.
The complaint now is that it's an exploitative deal. If it wasn't for lack of money to build infrastructure they could sell that energy for much more than the crypto miners pay.
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The crypto miners didn't build the solar facility. The Navajo did, at least that's my understanding. Their problem is that due to lack of infrastructure they have excess power they can't sell. The crypto miners agreed to buy half of it at low cost and built their facility nearby. In other words they took advantage of the lack of money for infrastructure to get that energy to where it could be sold.
The complaint now is that it's an exploitative deal. If it wasn't for lack of money to build infrastructure they could sell that energy for much more than the crypto miners pay.
But they don't, do they? This is not the Canadian firm' fault, nor its obligation to fix. At this moment, the power plant in the reservation is in a better situation than before because it is selling excess power that was going to waste.
We are focusing and blaming the wrong actor (the mining company) when we should be blaming local and federal government (and let's be honest, in-house racism and colonialism) for most people in the reservation lacking the means to connect themselves to basic utilities.
Ye
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Right, it's not the crypto mining company's fault or obligation to fix, but they are exploiting a bad situation for their own gain. It's morally distasteful, especially given the history.
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If the miners weren't there, where would tha
Re:Then do something. (Score:5, Insightful)
Is it possible that the profits from the miners could be going towards building out the infrastructure to send power to more homes?
Trying to reason with people who are so convinced Capitalism is evil, is like trying to teach a pig to sing. They're so absolutely convinced that any transfer of money, for anything, is someone fucking over someone else.
All this solar power, not doing a damn thing, and they freak out over it being sold, on the cheap, when it cannot be sold to the residents who aren't even hooked up to the fucking grid.
Of course the profits should be put into building out the infrastructure. That's an absolutely logical course of action. Sell the infinitely renewable solar power for cash. Use said cash to finishing building the network. THEN kick out the bitcoin miners if there's not enough electricity left over.
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The complaint is the deal with the miners is selling the electricity at such a low cost that the nation isn't getting much out of it. And that the miners would be willing to pay more for the electricity, thus providing funding the tribe needs for infrastructure that is sorely lacking.
Re:Then do something. (Score:5, Insightful)
The Navajo nation should require that 100% of it's residents in it's territory be connected to power before any "excess capacity" energy goes into the bitcoin mining. Otherwise, yes, it's exploitive, just like it was hundreds of years ago.
Why? They're using solar. Any electricity generated, and not used, is wasted. Those solar panels (or molten salt if that's what they're using) are sitting in the sun... If nobody is using the electricity then why the fuck wouldn't you sell it?
Explain, please, how excess solar capacity, not sold, benefits these Indians in any way, shape, or form.
Maybe use the revenue from selling the electricity, to finish building their grid? Think maybe that'd be a good use for the money? Then, when folks are hooked up and spare capacity is low, kick out the bitcoin miners. Doesn't that sound a bit more reasonable?
You do understand how solar works, right? We get a new batch of sunlight, for free, every goddamn day. Anyone who wants to let solar panels idle, and not do a damn thing, probably eats paint chips and licks windows.
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The Navajo nation should require that 100% of it's residents in it's territory be connected to power before any "excess capacity" energy goes into the bitcoin mining. Otherwise, yes, it's exploitive, just like it was hundreds of years ago.
If the mining rig is mostly solar-powered, then this requirement would be moot, for starters.
Secondly, the power goes unused, so it is not a case that this mining rig is taking anything from people (who sadly aren't connected to basic utilities at all.)
This is hardly colonialism, since the Canadian company isn't taking something from them (they don't have it.)
Instead of blaming the Canadian company, we should be blaming ourselves, US of A citizens, for allowing US citizens to live without basic utilit
Yeah pass a law, emit an edict (Score:2)
Require all navajo to be given free flying silver ponies before selling any electricity excess were not using. Passing laws would make that happen. Or they could sell that unused power, get some cash flow and use it to help people electrify their homes. But then they won't get the silver flying pony law passed
seven megawatts of power each month (Score:5, Insightful)
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It's technobabble for "this editor has absolutely no freaking idea how units of power or power capacity works".
It is 100% common in stupid people. Editors can't be held to any kind of standard like understanding that there's a difference between megawatts and megawatt-hours now, can they?
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I want five megawatts by mid-May.
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Re: seven megawatts of power each month (Score:2)
they're getting it at subsidized prices
Whi, exactly, do you imagine is 'subsidizing ' their electricity?
Being on an indian reservation, federal and state 'green energy' subsidies aren't available to them.
Any discount the crypto-miners may get on their electricity is likely due to their reliable load on the power grid, which helps the utility increase efficency by being able to better predict consumption.
Electricity has been a thing for over a century, why hasn't this 'nation' figured out how electrify their community? If they weren't so poor, th
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Then on top of all that, they were completely surrounded on that land by the very people who did all these horrible things to them?
Are you really asking why native American tribes are poor???
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Maybe because their people were brutally murdered, their land stolen, and then the few remaining were moved onto the inhospitable land that nobody else wanted?
Then on top of all that, they were completely surrounded on that land by the very people who did all these horrible things to them?
Are you really asking why native American tribes are poor???
Name one people, anywhere, who weren't murdered and didn't have their land stolen. I'll wait.
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Name one people, anywhere, who weren't murdered and didn't have their land stolen. I'll wait.
Me (so far), I have not been murdered nor had my land stolen.
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Here in Canada, after stealing the land, we sent generations of the natives to reeducation camps to have the "Indian beaten out of them".
Generations of broken families result in a broken people.
Re: seven megawatts of power each month (Score:2)
They must mean megawatthours.
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Unfortunately not.
They mean: the mining rigs are constantly drawing 9MW, which means: each hour they consume 9MWh.
So the total energy is 9MWh * 24h * 30 days - something like 6,500 MWh.
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Re: seven megawatts of power each month (Score:2)
It says it right there in TFS, are you a numpty? consumes seven megawatts of power each month -- enough to power 19,600 homes
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The “each month” is superlative, but presumably it is 7MW continuously, or roughly 5GWh/month. Retail value of that energy (close to source) would normally be around $50,000.
Now, the real question to me is why the Navajo Nation hasn’t sought help if so many of their people are without electricity. A basic setup to provide basic electricity for a home without any other source of power is about $1,200, including 650W of solar, 2kWh of battery, and 250W inverter. The most basic solution is
Re: seven megawatts of power each month (Score:2)
They are bone-achingly poor, they lack running water, electricity, broadband internet, etc.
As an 'independent nation' they don't pay state or federal taxes or vote in State & federal elections, so they are cut-off from all sources of 'free money' from the government for infrastructure projects.
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I get that (and feel the pain), but the grant access and tax deductions are still available— they just might need to finance tax deductions via a third party to take advantage. Personally I know one nonprofit that will finance up to 35% of the cost, plus tax deduction based financing credit of 30%, and you are looking at extremely low cost to the end user.
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As an 'independent nation' they don't pay state or federal taxes or vote in State & federal elections, so they are cut-off from all sources of 'free money' from the government for infrastructure projects.
Why are you lying? Indians, even those living on reservations, have every right to vote in Federal and State elections. Off-reservation Indians also have the right to vote in local elections. All tribal members have the right to vote in tribal elections for that particular tribe.
Native Americans have been allowed to vote in United States elections since the passage of the Indian Citizenship Act in 1924
Some states have laws that have made that difficult, historically, but by and large those barriers a
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Read the article.
It is not so simple as "oh we have no power", and "the bit coin miners" make our life hard.
While it is super bad written, especially the misleading headline, it is informative.
In other words: they have power and water. But not everyone. And the local utilities are involved in the project and are upgrading the power and water grid.
On the first picture in the article, you clearly the normal domestic power lines.
It's a rate of acceleration (Score:2)
It's like saying gravity is 9.8 meters per second every second .
Seems like the Navajo cut a bad deal with the mine (Score:3)
If these Navajo were more business savvy, they would have offered the land at a discount in exchange for a portion of the power produced by their solar plant.
Hell, they should still actually DO that if the Bitcoin farm wants to expand. The smart Native American tribes stopped complaining about the evils of capitalism years ago, and embraced it by building casinos and payday lending organizations. These folks should look into doing something similar.
The problem isn't power (Score:2)
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If you have cheap electricity then you don’t need water for [evaporative] cooling. You might need thermal storage so you aren’t running compressors against the hottest ambient air temperatures in the day, but it isn’t that hard. (You might run backup cooling with cooling towers which require some water consumption, but a more typical configuration would be a misting system on drycoolers for backup only.)
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It's hard to be savvy when you are poor. The choice facing them seems to have been sell to these guys for just above cost and at least cover the running costs of the plant, or get nothing.
Ideally they could have taken a loan to cover the cost of transporting the energy to where it could be consumed, but presumably they were not in a position to raise capital that way.
Navajo cannot sell their land (Score:2)
To protect Indian tribes against unscrupulous banks stealing their land most Native Americans can't sign contracts that turn over land to non natives. This is a double edged sword because it means they can't gain bussiness cash flow by borrowing against their land collateral. This is why things like "Indian" gaming casinos and land leases are so important to the development of their own capitalization. But this means you have to leverage the startup costs by letting outsiders profit . Someone had to pay
The absolute best idea! (Score:3)
The absolute best idea is: The Navajo nation are obviously getting something back from letting them mine. If the deal is not sweet enough, then yes they should charge more to the business for power or force them to install power utilities for everyone else. (I'd prefer the "force them to pay more", since that generates ongoing revenue for the Navajo nation.)
IN ADDITION though, the Navajo nation should have a lightbulb appear above their heads and go: "DUH, we can just mine crypto ourselves, since it's so wonderfully profitable and we have very cheap power!" (Even if they turn around and sell it as it's mined. This idea is just so obvious...)
Re: The absolute best idea! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: The absolute best idea! (Score:5, Insightful)
on land belonging to the Navajo Nation
This is, hands down, literally all they ever needed to win this game.
Indian reserves are sovereign and can make up all manner of laws outside of the norms of the US. They effectively operate as a mini-nation. If they want more money, they can just invoke a tax against all crypto mined within their lands, or an additional tax against power that is used to mine crypto, or a specific tax against companies that are or were named "WestBlock Capital".
They're literally holding all the cards while crying all the tears. Grow up.
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on land belonging to the Navajo Nation
This is, hands down, literally all they ever needed to win this game.
Indian reserves are sovereign and can make up all manner of laws outside of the norms of the US. They effectively operate as a mini-nation. If they want more money, they can just invoke a tax against all crypto mined within their lands, or an additional tax against power that is used to mine crypto, or a specific tax against companies that are or were named "WestBlock Capital".
They're literally holding all the cards while crying all the tears. Grow up.
This. There's nothing preventing the Navajo Nation from raising taxes, or working a deal with the firm to work with them (and the state) to help communities to connect to basic utilities.
The bitcoin rig owners hardly operated in bad fate, if at all. They saw power unused, and offered to buy it at a discount. Now the power plant is making more money.
Communities being disconnected are not part of that equation, because that problem is not one for the firm to solve. This is a public policy problem (where t
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They can tax all they want, but enforcement is quite another deal. We are also talking about Native Americans. Few people have been screwed over as much as they have.
Revenue to support water and internet too (Score:2)
I'd prefer the "force them to pay more", since that generates ongoing revenue for the Navajo nation...
Taxing them also allows the revenue to support water and internet.
Re: The absolute best idea! (Score:2)
The navajo nation does NOT have 'cheap electricity' - the canadian crypto-miners only have electricity because they had enough money to buy solar panels and the local utility ran power lines to their facility because they had sufficient funds to actually pay for their electricity.
The Indians can't build solar panels, can't buy crypto-mining rigs, and likely couldn't even build a building to house the mining rigs. They have no money, all they have is land and no jobs.
If the power company is happy (Score:2)
What's the problem? (Score:4, Insightful)
The bitcoin miners came to the Navajo Nation with an idea and capital in exchange for electricity and giving a piece of the action to the Navajo.
Are the miners consuming a limited resource?
If this is a bad deal for the Navajo people that's not the miners fault.
If the piece of the action is not spent wisely that's not the miners fault.
If exploitation exists it's Navajo on Navajo.
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I agree with this. This doesn't seem predatory. This seems like a win-win scenario but one of the winners is unhappy that they're not winning enough.
I would say this was a bad deal to start with, but I'm not sure that's even true. This was an unused resource (and green, to boot!), and someone came along and said "we'll give you money for half of your leftover resource". You can either not take the money and keep status quo, or take the money and see no ill consequences. The money that they offer isn't
Hear me out .... (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't want to come across sounding like an asshole here. But it seems to me the native American Indian tribes really have gotten some pretty sweet deals from the Federal government that they continue to moan and complain about. America doesn't exactly have a great history or track record of "making things completely right again" for anyone we conquered or took advantage of over the years. But you can't hold current generations responsible/liable for previous wrongs they had no part of, either. It's a pretty HUGE deal that our government allows tribal lands to be pretty much sovereign, and they can have such financial windfalls as their own casinos, which often have arrangements where the tribe is the SOLE collector of their revenue.
At some point, one has to ask why their own tribal leaders are cutting such poor deals for their own people, if they're agreeing to businesses setting up shop on their land and it's really not beneficial for them? In this situation, I fail to see how it's really anything other than "sour grapes", and the unfortunately all too common attitude of "they OWE me", just because they have what you want? Sure, I get that this bitcoin farm might generate and use enough power to provide energy for 19,000 or so homes. Ok .... but who paid to put all those solar panels up and for the rest of the power being used? If the deal says they have to share some of the power with the native tribes on the land, then that's that much more power than they had before, right? Do they think they should just sit there with no utilities until a company comes along, and then they should just solve that whole problem for them at no cost to them? Good luck with that.
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I don't know the details of this bitcoin farm, but I'd bet heavily it's another case of non-Natives making promises, and the Natives left holding the bag. It's not just a fact of history: it's still happens.
Re: Hear me out .... (Score:3)
Lets not pretend the navajos had electricity for their people, then decided to give it all to a few nice canadians for a few blankets and beads. All the Navajos have is land, which they are (apparently) leasing to the canadians for some money. What is the navajo nation doing with that rent money?
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What is the navajo nation doing with that rent money?
I could tell it to you.
But you could also read the article.
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I don't want to come across sounding like an asshole here.
If you're worried about coming across like an asshole it's better to pay extra attention to how you word the controversial idea than draw attention to the fact it's probably offensive.
But it seems to me the native American Indian tribes really have gotten some pretty sweet deals from the Federal government that they continue to moan and complain about.
Some sweet deals yes, but also some real terrible ones. For me the litmus test is the welfare of the native populations which isn't that great.
America doesn't exactly have a great history or track record of "making things completely right again" for anyone we conquered or took advantage of over the years. But you can't hold current generations responsible/liable for previous wrongs they had no part of, either.
Yet the current generations of American Indians are still living with the consequences of those previous wrongs.
It's a pretty HUGE deal that our government allows tribal lands to be pretty much sovereign, and they can have such financial windfalls as their own casinos, which often have arrangements where the tribe is the SOLE collector of their revenue.
At some point, one has to ask why their own tribal leaders are cutting such poor deals for their own people, if they're agreeing to businesses setting up shop on their land and it's really not beneficial for them?
The best form of governance for aboriginal communities is a difficult que
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How can you blame people like me or my ancestors for problems like this? We didn't do anything, why should we suffer? My family didn't even get off the boat until 1901. This has absolutely nothing to do with me, or my ancestors.
Unless you subscribe to Critical Theory, that is. Of course you don't, you're a thinking person. Critical Theory tells us a "Catechism of Contradictions." [quillette.com]These include such prescriptions as: embrace multiculturalism, but donâ(TM)t culturally appropriate; silence is viole
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Your ancestors are irrelevant. You, personally, benefit every day from that theft. We all do. It's only right that the country and people that benefit from that terrible injustice should do something to make up for it.
It's not about punishing or blaming anybody. It's about lifting up those who were oppressed and who's rights were violated by the US government (and the colonial
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We wouldn't even be in a situation that this would be a thing if all our ancestors didn't either turn a blind eye or directly steal from these people.
How can you be so sure?
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How can you be so sure?
Common sense and reason. Rather than trying to justify past choices to keep my present.
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Common sense and reason, when applied to the past, are both biased by the present and affected by hindsight 20/20.
Whatever you need to tell yourself (Score:2)
Common sense and reason, when applied to the past, are both biased by the present and affected by hindsight 20/20.
about your lack of reasoning and logic.
Re: Hear me out .... (Score:2)
Indians that live on reservations dont vote in US elections, nor do they pay taxes to the state or federal government.
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Indians that live on reservations dont vote in US elections, nor do they pay taxes to the state or federal government.
Holy smokes, where do you get that bullshit, and how can you spread it as fact with a straight face? People living on reservations do pay federal taxes (with exceptions on income coming from trusts, for example) and they most definitely vote.
Jesus Christ, this is stupid. How can you?
Nothing new (Score:2)
First nation leaders have a pretty solid history of signing shitty deals with the white man.
Re: Nothing new (Score:2)
"I think [...] companies prey on communities like my own," said Puente. "My perspective is that we're being used." New world order. Same old story.
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Is it?
NTUA continues to provide basic utility services to the mine. Moalemi said that tax revenue to the Navajo Nation for these utilities over three years is approximately $48,000 USD, not including worker pay. He added that the land lease revenue for the nation over five years is approximately $60,000 USD.
So instead of "This is generating local revenue", the result is "Give us all the power you're using and generating"?
Or is the result "Now that you've setup, and leased the land, and become revenue profitable, we want to change the deal and want more"? After all, setup costs were:
MacLean estimated that the build cost between three and five million dollars, and that the mine now holds equipment valued at $20 million USD.
So they spent $25M US to build and buy equipment, AND there are ongoing employee + energy costs, along with other incidentals. EG, equipment replacement / maintenance, taxes, land leasing, etc etc. They're making 1.5M per m
Re: Nothing new (Score:2)
Dumb, dumber, dumbest... (Score:5, Insightful)
A bitcoin mine is pretty dumb. But - the Navajo feeling like they're being used? They signed a deal with the Bitcoin company, taking rent in return for use of their land. They negotiated the terms - if they don't like the amount they are charging, who is to blame? All too likely the real problem is: the money is flowing into coffers controlled by the tribal leadership, and the average tribal members never see a penny of it. There's a reason local houses don't have electricity or running water, and it's not the bitcoin mine.
I grew up not far from reservations, and this is the absolutely typical story you hear all the time. "Poor us, woe is us". Those tribal members who leave the reservation and join modern society do just fine. They can retain their culture without sitting in a hovel and whining about it. Those who stay behind, moaning about how unfair life is? Eventually one's sympathy runs out, because they could leave. Or, they could tell the tribal leadership to get off its collective, corrupt duff and do something useful.
I'm overgeneralizing, obviously - some tribes do better than others. But the continual "woe is us" while doing absolutely nothing to improve their situation? That gets seriously tiresome, and deserved to fall on deaf ears.
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Those tribal members who leave the reservation and join modern society do just fine. They can retain their culture without sitting in a hovel and whining about it.
Part of their culture is tribal life, so they literally can't if they leave.
Don't get me wrong, I've seen the reality of tribal members fucking over tribal members first hand, like literally people stealing wood off their neighbor's house for firewood, and of course people kicking other people off the rolls so they aren't tribal members any more, because they are slightly less native — mind you, their other parents were Mexican, which frankly is another kind of "native" "American". Consequently I have
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Part of their culture is tribal life, so they literally can't if they leave.
Don't get me wrong, I've seen the reality of tribal members fucking over tribal members first hand, like literally people stealing wood off their neighbor's house for firewood, and of course people kicking other people off the rolls so they aren't tribal members any more, because they are slightly less native — mind you, their other parents were Mexican, which frankly is another kind of "native" "American". Consequently I have no illusions that tribal members are any more noble than anyone else. But let's not pretend that the modern world is compatible with their cultures, it ain't.
I don't disagree that the two are incompatible as currently implemented. If indeed one doesn't want to "live in the white man's world" and instead clings to "tribal life" as their culture, then they're relegated to a life of shitting in outhouses and living with no electricity or water. Or to live with the dichotomy that exists on many New Mexico and Arizona reservations of a few that live large and the rest that live in squalor. Somehow the former find a way to reconcile modern life with their "tribal w
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It doesn't have to be that way, but in this day and age I have increasingly less sympathy for those who won't endeavor to change their circumstances.
The big problem is that others changed their circumstances for them. Their prior way of life is now unsustainable due to literally deliberate attempts to destroy it. Aside from relocating whole tribes to other tribes' lands that they didn't know how to live on, perhaps one of the most visible examples of that is the near-extermination of the American Bison. They were killed off to make room for farming and for cattle ranching. Whole tribes can't survive as they used to without them. Coastal tribes are affec
Units. (Score:2)
Get your F-ing units straight.
Assuming that "7 megawatts" must be "7 megawatt hours". At 7MWh/month that's only 10kW... You could have that in solar panels on a residential home....
Megawatts per month (Score:2)
When do these units stop? It's OK to say
- megawatts
- megawatt-hours per month
Megawatts per month just outs the illiterate
Unbridled racism (Score:2)
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I don't know how the comment about them getting sweet deals from Uncle Sam is modded +5. The government has broken nearly every treaty that was agreed upon for centuries. Not to mention the little genocide thing too.
Most of the smart people left this site long ago. It's mostly old cranky conservatives now who don't understand new technology or immediately write off any findings because they know better than the people doing the research. The ban crypto comments are the best because this site used to post De
then the dumb fucking tribal elders are to blame (Score:3)
This is all about envy.
Native tribes control their land.
They could, TOMORROW enact a new rule taxing bitcoin mining in their territories and there's little the company could do about it than pay or move. They are taking advantage of the situation today, but could suffer from it just as quickly.
(Given my experience with most native tribes, they're likely as not to stupidly, sort sighted, kill the golden goose anyway.)
But this is purely about envy. They're using SOLAR power, so we can't bitch about their consumption, so we find something else to complain about. Why not complain about the Kardashian's being billionaires while outside their mansions Los Angeles is swollen with homeless? It's the same dynamic.
They are showing up in Canada's far north too (Score:2)
A bit more information (Score:2)
Ok, I spent way too much time surfing around. There are lots of articles out there, all crappy in different ways. Here are a couple of facts that seem to be generally agreed:
- The solar plant produces a peak of 8MW. An off-the-cuff estimate: they could average around 50MWh per day of energy production.
- The Navajo initially invested in an "equity stake" in the bitcoin venture, back in 2017.
- They sold their stake this year, at a substantial profit. Presumably, the plant still pays rent for the land.
Ban it. (Score:5, Insightful)
China did something right by banning bitcoin mining. This practice is tremendously wasteful of energy and screws up the hardware market, all so rich people can gamble in a global casino that is already stacked against everyone else.
People complain that fiat money is a massive game of "let's pretend," but bitcoin is even worse. The scarcity is even more artificial than it is for fiat money, as anyone with basic technical know-how can spin up a new cryptocurrency and try to convince people to go for that instead (or in addition-to). Further, the lack of regulation means bitcoin enables crime even more than fiat money, and purchasing bitcoin means you are helping kidnappers get their payouts and who-knows-what else.
The law tends to be very slow to keep up with tech. I am surprised that China, of all countries, are the first to stand up and do what's right here. I wish we would catch up.
Re: Ban it. (Score:5, Interesting)
China did something right by banning bitcoin mining. This practice is tremendously wasteful of energy and screws up the hardware market, all so rich people can gamble in a global casino that is already stacked against everyone else.
This particular crypto-mining facility is not really 'wasting' much energy - they have tapped into solar power for the majority of their needs, and likely could go completely solar with sufficient storage capacity to carry the miners through the night.
The locals have no electricity - OK - up until these crypto-miners arrived they were apparently OK with that situation...
The plight of indian nations is the stuff of tragedy, with only a few figuring out how to turn their current situation into a profitable venture. Rather than pretend it's the Canadian Crypto-miners responsibility to drag these people into the 21st century ask yourself why these people haven't figured out a way to improve their lot. Do they have any industry? Do they raise any livestock? Do sny farming?
They love in a 'nation' independent of the federal, state and local governments and likely eek out an existence out of the meager assistance given them by the bureau of indian affairs.
If they cant figure out how to 'make a go of it' where they are, then they need to consider leaving the reservation.
I'm curious - how much of the past several trillion dollar spending packages increased aid to the native american population living on reservations?
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They love in a 'nation' independent of the federal, state and local governments and likely eek out an existence out of the meager assistance given them by the bureau of indian affairs.
Indians (or Native Americans) are not independent of the Federal Government. They are also not totally independent of State Government. Indian reservations that want to offer gambling are required to enter into a Compact with the host State. States that ban all gambling, and treat it as a crime, can also prohibit reservations from offering it. Said states, however, cannot even offer the lottery. If they offer any gambling at all, then the reservation has the right to do the same.
States also have criminal
It's the cash flow stupid (Score:2)
Most tribes are prohibited from from transferring land to non tribal members. This was done for their own safety as it prevents outsiders from say foreclosing in loans and thus seizing land. ( the same is true of most countries actually).
But this also means you cannot borrow against your land from an outside bank. Without that liquidity you can't build any capital intensive businesses to raise your tribe out of poverty. All you can do is invite outsiders in to profit from something you have. You can in
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How do you enforce such a ban? It's akin to banning mp3 files. Say my bitcoin wallet is on a computer in Finland and I live in the USA. They aren't in my physical possession but I have access.
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If you think your Bitcoin wallet is on a computer in Finland, it means you do not know how crypto-currencies work.
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In a home setting they can act as space-heaters (I use a miner in the workshop for the winter for exactly this reason) In an industrial scale, miners could function effectively as pre-heaters for any number of steam turbine power plants. If this were subsidized, it would also serve to drive the profit of 3rd party miners down which would further incentivize efficient use of the thermal
What's the problem? (Score:3)
If they get all their energy from the sun then where's the harm? And just because they happen to be physically near the Navajo why does that make them more responsible for the Navajo poverty than say Warren buffet or google or Goldman sachs? They are not consuming resources the Navajo could be using instead. It's likely they are providing some jobs in the area and they are defeintekt showing the Navajo how to monetize their own solar resources without them having to risk seeing if it's a good bussiness mo