Tesla Is Letting Non-Tesla EVs Use Its Supercharger Network For the First Time (theverge.com) 66
Tesla launched a pilot project in the Netherlands this week in which non-Tesla electric vehicles will be allowed to use its Supercharger network, representing the first time that the automaker is opening up its proprietary charging stations to EVs from other companies. The Verge reports: Tesla's Supercharger network is often held up as the best possible example of an EV charging network: fast, reliable, and plentiful. But Tesla's network is also exclusive to Tesla owners, meaning someone driving a Volkswagen or Ford EV wouldn't be able to use it. But that's now starting to change. Tesla CEO Elon Musk has, for years, talked about opening up his company's vast Supercharger network to other electric vehicles. And over this past summer, he started revealing key details about how it would actually work. Now the company is ready to start the process by announcing its first pilot project.
Initially, only 10 Supercharger stations in the Netherlands will be available to non-Tesla EVs. Vehicle owners will need to download the most recent version of Tesla's smartphone app (version 4.2.3 or higher) in order to access the stations. After downloading the app, customers will be prompted to select "Charge Your Non-Tesla" in order to find the closest participating Supercharger site. Tesla owners can still use the stations just as normal. "We will be closely monitoring each site for congestion and listening to customers about their experiences," the company said in a blog post. "It's always been our ambition to open the Supercharger network to Non-Tesla EVs and, by doing so, encourage more drivers to go electric," the company said. "This move directly supports our mission to accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy."
Initially, only 10 Supercharger stations in the Netherlands will be available to non-Tesla EVs. Vehicle owners will need to download the most recent version of Tesla's smartphone app (version 4.2.3 or higher) in order to access the stations. After downloading the app, customers will be prompted to select "Charge Your Non-Tesla" in order to find the closest participating Supercharger site. Tesla owners can still use the stations just as normal. "We will be closely monitoring each site for congestion and listening to customers about their experiences," the company said in a blog post. "It's always been our ambition to open the Supercharger network to Non-Tesla EVs and, by doing so, encourage more drivers to go electric," the company said. "This move directly supports our mission to accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy."
I think that EU laws ban exclusive / plug mandate (Score:2)
I think that EU laws ban exclusives and force an plug mandate!
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Tesla were required to adopt the CCS standard for charging in the EU, and also put it in UK cars. They had to convert the old chargers too.
Their chargers don't currently work with other cars, except for this trial. Some cars report an ID do charging is automatically started and billing is taken care of. Presumably owners of other vehicles will have to manually use a website or the crappy Tesla app.
The only real issue that has come up so far is that the chargers have short cables. Some cars need to park over
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Are Tesla's European superchargers not charging at the same speeds as their American ones? Because in the US they have a 250 kW max, and seem to significantly outperform other chargers, even ones that advertise higher power delivery.
I wish they would do that for power tools (Score:1)
Every brand its own charging standard. I would have thought that the third tier brands would copy the first tier standards, but no. Once a culture is in place it sticks.
We forget how lucky we are that AA, AAA, D batteries were standardized long ago.
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Some of the European ones are 250kW max, but many other networks are installing 350kW chargers.
It's a bit more complicated than that, in fact. Tesla chargers are usually paired up, so it's 250kW between two of them.
The main difference is lack of 800V support though. Tesla cars use 400V batteries and can only sustain high charge speeds for a few minutes, then they drop down to less than half the maximum. 800V cars tend to be able to sustain high speeds for longer, but only at 800V.
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It's a bit more complicated than that, in fact. Tesla chargers are usually paired up, so it's 250kW between two of them.
It's a lot more complicated than that. V2 chargers were paired, so it was 150 kW between two.
As I understand it, V3 chargers are in groups of 4 (or, occasionally, up to 7), so four stalls share 350 KVA (or more) from the grid (depending on the cabinet), supplemented on their 1 kV DC shared power bus by a bank of storage batteries (and by other charger banks, if idle).
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I don't think the EU has the exclusive plug mandate yet. However they standardized with CCS. I think the EU mostly formally asked Tesla to open up its supercharger network. (kinda of the way your boss asks you to do a particular job)
Tesla has been open to the idea of sharing its network for a while, However they wanted to share it their way, (mostly with other car companies paying Tesla a license fee to use their network). However I think they realized that plan won't happen, so opening their chargers is
also need to let 3rd party repaired teslas use the (Score:1)
also need to let 3rd party repaired tesla's use them
Re:advertising (Score:4, Insightful)
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Sorry, no open chargers right now. Thank you for the updated location information and fresh contacts update. You could be charging right now if you owned a Tesla. Click Here to order yours now!
metering and meter certification? (Score:2)
metering and meter certification?
is Tesla willing to have the local government come out and test / do certification on there power meter?
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(I guess at least with EV charging the car may have the ability to tell for itself how much juice it has taken on with more accuracy than a car's fuel gauge.)
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Of all the companies you choose to make that argument with, you picked Tesla? The one automotive company that's never run one commercial or banner ad or done any form of paid advertisement?
Seems a pretty weak argument there.
Dongles? (Score:2)
Re:Dongles? (Score:5, Informative)
All EVs support 120V/240V charging from 12 amps to 80 amps, but that's (relatively) slow charging. For example, my Volt charges in about 4 hours at 240V/15 amps. My Bolt charges in 10 hours at 240V/32 amps. These numbers are from 0 to 100%, not 0 to 80% which is a lot faster.
For fast charging, there are 3 different standards. One is Nissan and a handful of others, called Chademo. One is Tesla. One is Chademo. There are differences in the plug, communication protocol, as well as voltage and current.
Most EV drivers don't use the fast charging, because they charge at home overnight, and rarely exceed the range of the car in a single day. My Bolt has the DC fast charging option, but I have never used it once in over 4.5 years of ownership.
Re:Dongles? (Score:5, Informative)
In Europe, new Teslas have CCS ports, and Tesla has been adding CCS these to the Superchargers in Europe. This is how Tesla can offer charging to other brands.
https://electrek.co/2018/11/14... [electrek.co]
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I see. Good of the EU for requiring CCS. I wish California would do the same.
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Thing is, the SAE J1772 physical interface (which is the AC side of the CCS plug) is crap. Design by committee -- way oversized and prone to breakage due to its silly tab-lock mechanism.
Tesla offered their design -- which is the same wire protocol and same power spec as J1772 -- to the SAE, and got promptly told to talk to the hand. Not invented here.
I agree, a universal connector would be wonderful, but Tesla's would've been a much better choice as that universal connector.
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The Tesla plug has a couple of issues that got it rejected. The first one is that it passes AC and DC over the same pins, and those pins are not very big compared to the CCS ones. That means that the Tesla plug won't be safe for 800V or super high power charging.
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Ability to tolerate higher voltage is more down to the insulators than to the connectors. Higher CURRENT is a connector issue, they need more contact area and more cross-section.
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It's the insulation in the connector that is the problem. There isn't enough between the two pins for 800V.
You have to remember that these connectors will be used in the rain and snow, moisture will get in there.
Tesla came late to the game in Europe, by the time they had any presence CCS and CHAdeMO were widely deployed and adopted by EV manufacturers. I don't know the exact timing in the US but Tesla didn't even have DC charging until after both the Leaf (CHAdeMO) and Zoe (CCS) were selling in volume, so t
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Sure, I was referring to the person who said he wished California required CCS. In Europe, the larger connector makes sense to accommodate 3-phase power. That makes sense.
And thanks to those about referencing insulation spacing for > 600V. Learn something new every day.
Still like the Tesla connector but have a much better understanding now. Don't see AC/DC-on-same-pin as a major issue (it clearly isn't) -- but the spacing for very high voltage applications makes sense.
Great... (Score:1)
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B.S.
No tesla driver rents an ICE just because long trip.
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Define a "long" road trip ...? I did a 20-state, 7000 mile road trip last year in a Model X. No charging issues whatsoever. Even in Montana, and Idaho, and Wyoming, and Utah and South Dakota ... whatever other flyover states we were in.
Re: Great... (Score:2)
This is about Europe. Network buildout is not impressive. Look at the kind of detour you have to make in St PÃlten, Austria. Or how there's a clumping of stations at one place, to then have to wait in line at an only station in 100km. When you wait for a charger you can't leave the car after a long trip leg, as some other car may take a freed up stall. There are stations that were medium busy in 2019 and which haven't seen an extension since, despite way more traffic and regularnwait times. At a place
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Tesla's big lie (Score:2)
Tesla's big lie is that "It's always been our ambition to open the Supercharger network to Non-Tesla EVs."
If they really were sincere about that, they wouldn't have built non-standard DC chargers to begin with. High-current, standard DC chargers existed and Tesla chose to ignore them for years.
Re:Tesla's big lie (Score:5, Informative)
Re: Tesla's big lie (Score:1)
Teslas in Europe use CCS and charging at 250kW chargers, where exist, is as fast as the battery can soak it in. Not sure what bottleneck you reference
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I think he is referring to this: hy Other Car Companies Don't Use Tesla Superchargers [roadandtrack.com] The article explains why the other car companies may not have taken-up Tesla on the offer. I don't know what CCS standard was around at the time.
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This is great news... (Score:5, Insightful)
But there is still something that bothers me with EV charging.
Why do every network require some app, account, etc... At the gas station, all you need to do is insert your credit card, and most of them have other options, including cash. Furthermore, there is a huge display with the prices, so that at a glance, you know exactly how much you are going to pay.
And even if we argue that EV charging is more like parking, parking lots have no problem charging you with card or cash.
Re: This is great news... (Score:2)
Same can be said for parking apps, why do hospitals and towns use proprietary apps to charge for parking. Get on one app scheme please.
Re: This is great news... (Score:3)
In Europe, it's also fun to cope with the random, punitive ways one is supposed to pay for public road use, except in Germany
Re: This is great news... (Score:2)
Also, how poorly they can be marked. Spending 30mins on some random charger is not fun, you give up, drive away and see there's another station at the same petrol station a couple hundred feet away. As you drive on a 1-way road leading back to the highway. No, branding doesn't always help identify the chargers, because in Europe, each charger may have more than one, unclearly marked brand, and the apps, some of which cover multiple networks, use other names
Re:This is great news... (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is, EV charging stations are mostly unattended. So accepting cash is out of the question - they like to put chargers everywhere and not have to worry about having to maintain them on a daily basis (which accepting cash requires).
Second, many EV spots charge idle times - an EV charging spot is NOT a parking space and you're only supposed to use it for charging, then vacate the spot so someone else can charge. To encourage this turnover, many EV chargers charge for non-charging time to encourage you to move your car to a regular parking spot and free up the spot for someone else.
The second point is why I think DC fast charging is not as necessary as many people believe - a level 1 or level 2 charger is more than adequate. You can fit more level 1 and level 2 chargers in a parking lot, and since they are "charge al day" type of chargers, they can be real parking spots. For places where you park for hours at a time, like for work, this is more than adequate - I'd rather have 100 EV level 1 charging parking spots instead of 1 150kW spot that people have to rotate through when you're parked longer term.
As for why an app, same thing - less maintenance. Having even a credit card swiper on a unit is another point of failure. Especially since detecting end of charge is more complex than you may think. Remember when you're done charging the cable unlocks so someone else can use the charger - you don't want them to bill their charging to your account by accident.
Unlike a gas station, where even unattended ones need daily or weekly maintenance (i.e., someone still has to fill the tanks and thus can fix any problems while on site), an EV charging station once set up can be left alone for months without someone coming around to fix things. It's why a lot of chargers are broken - it broke and there's no one around to fix it because there's no need to send someone around every day to check things over. They only consist of some power transformers and heavy duty switching gear, the likes of which are often meant to operate for years without needing maintenance.
I'm sure in a few years we'll be hearing about EV chargers that literally people forgot existed because you practically don't need to do anything with them once installed. And maybe in a decade or two, we'll hear of EV chargers that were walled off and forgotten about.
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Contactless credit card support is no more a point of failure than app-based control.
I can pay with Apple Pay literally everywhere and don't need to take any other payment method.
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"The second point is why I think DC fast charging is not as necessary as many people believe - a level 1 or level 2 charger is more than adequate."
No. Just no.
Without fast DC charging, you have an expensive vehicle that can never leave your metro area. I bough an EV to replace a car -- a car that I actually take on vacations, not as a city vehicle.
Yes, 80-90% of my charging is done at my home in my carport. But that other 10% is _extremely_ important, and I would not bother with an EV if it were not there.
L
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I actually agree with both of you.
The primary -- and overwheming majority -- of chargers should be Level 2 chargers.
DC fast charging is, though, very much necessary. As you said - super important when on a long trip. But that's not the majority of the time, and while super important, day-to-day local use should be done with Level 2 chargers.
It needs to be there, but not as ubiquitous as L2. The way I see it, L1/L2 chargers should be every-friggin-where. Put a plug at the base of every light post. But,
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At the gas station, all you need to do is insert your credit card, and most of them have other options, including cash. Furthermore, there is a huge display with the prices, so that at a glance, you know exactly how much you are going to pay.
If you spent an entire day filling up your car (or left it filling overnight) that huge display with prices at a glance would be equally useless to you.
Likewise when every street corner needs charging infrastructure it doesn't make much sense for them all to include individual credit card readers. That's an insanely pointless expense. You also use an app to unlock a Lime scooter, and don't swipe a credit card for the same reason. The app also locates the scooter or charging station for you.
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My city replaced the parking meters a few years back, they now all have a credit card reader. If it makes sense to accept credit cards at every single metered street parking space (some of which only charge $0.30/hour) it can't possibly be an 'insanely pointless expense' to put them on car chargers.
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My city replaced the parking meters a few years back, they now all have a credit card reader.
What an absolute waste. My city has numbered zones. I get out click a button on my phone and go on my way with payment taken care of completely without me having to worry about time, details, or play with some machine or look for my wallet. Bonus point, it actually gets paid by credit card anyway. It's like a TV remote, except for parking.
Incidentally does every parking meter have a credit card reader? I'm guessing you replaced the hundreds of meters with one reader serving an entire parking zone, something
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The EU is requiring them all to accept contactless card payments at the charger. Tesla will need to upgrade their chargers to offer this in due course.
There needs to be some additional legislation about how costs are displayed, similar to how petrol must be sold by the litre with the price clearly advertised.
This will suck (Score:3)
The network is already stretched thin, with stations few and far between, some of them also requiring a many-mile detour. Also, since this year, waiting times routinely happen on trips. It sucks to spend 10x as much time waiting for a charger to become free than what gas cars spend filling, even before the charging starts. Usually the chargers share electricity pairwise, so it'll be slow charging. Add to this 3rd party cars. It'd be a good idea only if Volkswagen etc had comparable networks. But they all suck. You have to individually contract a hodgepodge of charger networks, keeping 10 apps with credit card info, typing in hard to locate codes, and even, somehow finding these and including them in trip planning. Tesla and the legacy makers should figure out how to provide a mandatory, dense network, before throwing existing and future customers under the bus
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Realistically, this is just the start of problems. A lot of the current problems with EV charging will get much worse in near future, as the fleet grows but grids cannot supply the power.
In long run, if we actually stick to EVs rather than have them be some kind of a short lived transient fad, you'll likely see something like what we have in Finland with sauna culture which leads to electric saunas in apartment buildings, often in every apartment. Which requires high voltage, high current end point connecti
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In the UK the people that run the national grid say if we all switch to EV vehicles they will need precisely zero extra grid capacity and very little extra generation capacity as most of the charging will happen overnight when there is spare capacity anyway.
If we all switch to electrical heating we will need 50% more grid capacity which is more challenging but perfectly doable. We will also need more generation capacity too but I can't remember the figure for that off the top of my head.
So perhaps instead o
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In other words, they'll be even worse prepared than they were for Brexit. Well, that's bad news for UK.
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Holy shit, that means most scientists in the world know me, have studied me and came to conclusion about my preparedness for... something.
Mom, I'm famous. At least among chinatrolls and their pet scientists.
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Please, pump my ego more. It's not big enough yet. Do you have any more quotes?
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I get big ego from the fact that propaganda bots from one of the most powerful empires on the planet right now think me important enough to have personalized trolling.
You know, that weird AC spam that you were doing on about every other of my posts in last half a year or so. That's a lot of effort. Ergo, it inflates my ego.
So get cracking. My ego isn't big enough yet. I'm looking forward to next half a year of attention.
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But I don't post any lies nor idiocy. If I did, you wouldn't be there to troll me. I wouldn't be important enough.