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Data Storage Desktops (Apple) Apple

Apple's Moves Point To a Future With No Bootable Backups, Says Developer (appleinsider.com) 105

The ability to boot from an external drive on an Apple Silicon Mac may not be an option for much longer, with the creation and use of the drives apparently being phased out by Apple, according to developers of backup tools. Apple Insider reports: Mike Bombich, the founder of Bombich Software behind Carbon Copy Cloner, wrote in a May 19 blog post that the company will continue to make bootable backups for both Intel and Apple Silicon Macs, and will "continue to support that functionality as long as macOS supports it." However, with changes in the way a Mac functions with the introduction of Apple Silicon, the ability to use external booting could be limited, in part due to Apple's design decisions.

The first problem is with macOS Big Sur, as Apple made it so macOS resides on a "cryptographically sealed Signed System Volume," which could only be copied by Apple Software Restore. While CCC has experience with ASR, the tool was deemed to be imperfect, with it failing "with no explanation" and operating in a "very one-dimensional" way. The second snag was Apple Fabric, a storage system that uses per-file encryption keys. However, ASR didn't work for months until the release of macOS 11.3 restored it, but even then kernel panics ensued when cloning back to the original internal storage.

In December, Bombich spoke to Apple about ASR's reliability and was informed that Apple was working to resolve the problem. During the call, Apple's engineers also said that copying macOS system files was "not something that would be supportable in the future." "Many of us in the Mac community could see that this was the direction Apple was moving, and now we finally have confirmation," writes Bombich. "Especially since the introduction of APFS, Apple has been moving towards a lockdown of macOS system files, sacrificing some convenience for increased security." [...] While CCC won't drop the ability to copy the System folder, the tool is "going to continue to offer it with a best effort' approach." Meanwhile, for non-bootable data restoration, CCC's backups do still work with the macOS Migration Assistant, available when booting up a new Mac for the first time.

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Apple's Moves Point To a Future With No Bootable Backups, Says Developer

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  • Apple says ... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by PPH ( 736903 ) on Monday May 24, 2021 @05:48PM (#61418104)

    ... "We are altering the deal. Pray we do not alter it any further."

    • Re:Apple says ... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by taustin ( 171655 ) on Monday May 24, 2021 @06:04PM (#61418152) Homepage Journal

      It appears they object to people restoring from backups. Which makes perfect sense. If you're an Applehead, why on earth would you want to restore a broken machine? Just buy a new one.

      • Re:Apple says ... (Score:5, Interesting)

        by znrt ( 2424692 ) on Monday May 24, 2021 @06:24PM (#61418210)

        there are many reasons for wanting to boot a different image on your machine, and not all mac users are computer-illiterate. even developers like to use macs for some reason. good for them. however, if you pay extra just to get a walled garden then you shouldn't be surprised to get a walled garden.

        • Apple users have loved the idea of a walled garden for years now. That the walls are getting higher and the entry and exit now have a padlock probably doesn't change much.

          Just wait, in a few minutes an apple user will come in and talk about the virtues of the security theater offered by apples locked-in approach.

          • One could or just point to how the PC side isn't any better. [microsoft.com]

            • Secure boot can be turned off.
              • Secure boot can be turned off.

                For now, and not on Windows RT devices [howtogeek.com]. Call me paranoid, but I don't trust any corporation, least of all M$, any further than I can throw it.

                • For now, and not on Windows RT devices [howtogeek.com]. Call me paranoid, but I don't trust any corporation, least of all M$, any further than I can throw it.

                  You guys have been saying that for over 15 years. The world didn't end as you predicted, and to this day it remains a condition of the Designed for Windows certification that a device is shipped with the option to disable it, and even if it isn't disabled that doesn't preclude you from installing another OS providing the boot record is signed. You use the term M$ childishly while ignoring that Microsoft openly cross sign binaries from other OSes, which is why you can happily install many other OSes without

                • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

                  Windows RT, last release 5 years ago. I think we can say that idea failed pretty hard and Microsoft has shown no interest in locking down systems ever since.

                • Oh no! You can't disable SecureBoot on devices that even Microsoft gave up on 5 years ago and wrote down hundreds of millions of dollars of inventory on because nobody (except you, apparently) wanted to buy?

                  Meanwhile, there's still millions of systems that use a non-cancelled version of Windows where you can turn of SecureBoot just fine, including systems that are shipping today.

            • One could or just point to how the PC side isn't any better. [microsoft.com]

              Actually secure boot, as it is implemented, is a good thing. It is PKI based and you can load your own keys, effectively giving you, the end user, total ownership of the chain of trust.

              https://www.linuxjournal.com/c... [linuxjournal.com]

              I personally use secure booting so that I can have some degree of certainty that I'm not running under a bootkit. This guarantees that I'm in control of what is running on my system. That is the total opposite of the Apple model where it guarantees that Apple is in control, and you, the end us

            • It's quite clear you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.
              It's understandable. Secure Boot has been the target of quite a bit of slander at the hands of ignorant fucking toolsheds.

              Still, that's no excuse to continue the tradition. Educate yourself.

              I have yet to run into a computer where you didn't have full control over Secure Boot (indeed, it would be a violation of the UEFI standard where it is defined)
              You can, should you be so inclined: entirely replace the PK.
              You have full control over
            • One could or just point to how the PC side isn't any better. [microsoft.com]

              Actually you can point to PC side being better. It was a condition for Microsoft certification of devices that the BIOS comes with the option to disable Secure Boot. A device without the option to disable Secure Boot isn't allowed to advertise itself as Designed for Windows. Even Microsoft's own first party option gives the user the ability to disable Secure Boot.

              This is all a good thing. Secure Boot provides a very real security benefit, and the ability to control it empowers users. Quite the opposite of w

          • by PPH ( 736903 )

            Apple users have loved the idea of a walled garden for years now.

            The sentry towers look particularly lovely from the inside.

          • Just wait, in a few minutes an apple user will come in and talk about the virtues of the security theater offered by apples locked-in approach.
            Actually, no.
            We tell you: you are just an idiot.

            The only one thing I downloaded from "Apples Walled Garden" is Baldur's Gate.
            Everything else I downloaded from the manufactor webs site.

            Idiot.

        • there are many reasons for wanting to boot a different image on your machine

          Are you suggesting that Apple users actively want to boot it wrong?

    • Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah! This exactly. Apple has realized our law gives them (slow) but unilateral control of most any contract they enter with their 'customers'. The ability to change the software at will ("What are you gcrying about its free!?")... "Oh.. and its MANDITORY!".. "So.. suck it up buttercup". .. is gamechanging, and This is not even his final form. I have a half dozen macs, and another half dozen iOS thingys, so I'm not a Apple hater. I just hate everything they want to become.
  • iBook? iMac? Nah.

    The new machines need to be branded iBrick.

  • Seems like Apple is no longer intent on keeping third-party MacOS backup solutions in business much longer. Everyone *must* use Apple's Time Machine, no exceptions.

    Good luck also with recovery of said data if you don't have a backup.

    Yikes... I knew this was coming. The move away from general-purpose CPUs means a gradual lock-down of the Mac. I'm starting to wonder if Apple really did plan to make the Mac App Store be the only place you could download software for your Mac... Jeez...

    I'm thanking my lucky sta

    • I'm starting to wonder if Apple really did plan to make the Mac App Store be the only place you could download software for your Mac... Jeez...

      After this, all of the building blocks are there. The next step is preventing apps not signed by apple from running at all unless the user enables an obscured setting that is preceded by multiple warnings that your life will be ruined if you enable it.

    • by Kristoph ( 242780 ) on Monday May 24, 2021 @07:16PM (#61418362)

      I know it’s Slashdot but please RTFA. An arbitrary backup solution is not at rick.

      The only future limitation Apple is introducing is that you cannot backup your system volume such that the backup is a bootable system volume. The obvious reason is that Apple doesn’t want it to be possible to replace your system files with potentially compromised files.

      • You do realize you are saying "Apple does not trust the user to boot her machine with anything, but something Apple already knows about." Nothing about that is 'more secure' it is just more controlled.
    • No idiot should be considering modifying the system files of any BSD system anyways by themselves, only via the proper ways of updating the system. It's also why I actually support Apple locking down the System volume on macOS; it will reduce the amount of idiots they will have to deal with.
    • Apple Systems are what everyone thought Microsoft Windows would become.

    • The move away from general-purpose CPUs means a gradual lock-down of the Mac.
      Since when is an ARM not a general purpose CPU?

  • Well I think I'm going to ask some Mac users here for some advice then. I am a long time Thinkpad with Linux Mint user to do my work. I'm starting a new job in which I'm to be supplied the latest Mac and I wouldn't have a clue what best practises I should use. Any other Mint/Mac users out there that could offer advice?

    Frankly Mac is not my first choice, however I see that there is probably a learning opportunity for me. My wife has a Mac and just the keyboard problems alone turn me off (I use a razer bla

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward

      This demonstrates the Linux on the Desktop problem really well. Linux advocates simply can't understand why Windows users wouldn't just move to Linux, you're only moving because you're being forced to move, not because it offers you value over what you use currently and ultimately it's just something different with maybe less than what you have now.

      Can I get neovim?

      Seriously? You couldn't manage to just Google that? But yes, install the 'brew' package manager then brew install neovim

      What about linux packages

      macOS != Linux so no, Linux packages won

      • macOS != Linux so no, Linux packages won't run on macOS just like macOS packages won't run on Linux.
        That is nonsense. And if you mean with package a command line program: it is nonsense both ways.
        You are an idiot.

        You are really an idiot: https://www.docker.com/blog/ge... [docker.com]

    • by RazorSharp ( 1418697 ) on Monday May 24, 2021 @09:29PM (#61418640)

      Install the Homebrew package manager and use the terminal and you'll feel right at home. A ton of Linux software is ported to macOS and available on Homebrew.

      My recommendation is this: learn the hotkeys, the use of gestures (laptop or the Apple mouse), and all the functionality of Finder. Those primary functions of the function buttons are amazing. The learning curve is not steep and you'll find that your workflow will become much more efficient once you learn the system and take advantage of what it has to offer. Compared to Gnome and Windows, it will take you less clicks/button punches/mouse movement to get the same things done.

      • by MrKaos ( 858439 )

        Any particular hotkeys that you think are useful?

        • Those function keys are particularly useful. Command-spacebar to bring up spotlight, which you can use to quickly open any application or file. Others will depend on your use case. For example, command-k brings up the connect to server box.

          One of my favorite macOS features is the help drop down that appears on every application. If you are using an application that has a lot of menus and you are unfamiliar with it, you can type something like edit and it will show you where it is nested in the menu. The li

    • by bmimatt ( 1021295 ) on Monday May 24, 2021 @09:51PM (#61418676)

      Here's some thoughts from a "Mac for devops" perspective:

      - docker, vagrant, vmware, etc are all natively supported by their vendors
      - simple editors like vim, Atom, VSC, etc are also natively supported
      - bash, zsh, python are there for you as well, out of the box - if you're willing to live with particular python version supplied

      Here's what you'll likely want to make your life easier: brew [brew.sh] - for easy CLI installation of ports pretty much everything you get via apt. With version pinning, easy upgrades and such.
      Use it to install anything from specific python or ruby versions to aws cli, gcloud/gutil and (probably/likely) azure equivalents as well.

      As much as I dislike the general direction Apple is going with their MBPs, they're still quite usable for development and devops stuff.
      I am just less and less certain that I will be buying another MBP for work, I may just go the Mint route.
      Good luck and try to have some fun while poking at a new-to-you OS.

      • by MrKaos ( 858439 )

        Thanks to you and Razorsharp, I will check out brew and the hotkeys.

        • Also consider just compiling the stuff yourself, if you don’t need a bunch of stuff. You might need to first install some of the auto tools, but they build without issue on the Mac (even on my M1 Mac, with the terminal in x86 mode.

          If you have an Intel Mac, you can even put Mint on it if you wish. rEFInd is a good boot manager that installs pretty easily, although you’ll temporarily need to disable the system’s protected mode to install it. I’ve got Mint triple booting with Mojave and

          • by MrKaos ( 858439 )

            Thanks 93 Escort Wagon, that sounds like a pretty interesting option. I'm considering if I could replace the Mac UI with gnome as my preferred UI, I'm not sure what SOE I'm likely to find when I receive it. Frankly I'd be happy with a thinkpad -1 generation with Mint on it, but if they're going to give me a brand new Mac I'll give it a go.

            One of the biggest things for me is the Linux select/paste paradigm that means I don't have to take my hand of the mouse, stuff like that missing is roadblocks to my pr

            • by Wolfrider ( 856 )

              > One of the biggest things for me is the Linux select/paste paradigm that means I don't have to take my hand of the mouse, stuff like that missing is roadblocks to my productivity so I want to try to hit the ground running

              --The big thing is realizing the CMD key takes the place of Ctrl for most of your keyboard shortcuts. So in Linux Chrome/Firefox you hit Ctrl+L to get to the address bar, in OSX it's CMD+L. Copy/Paste is CMD+C / CMD+V. And you can't use Alt+F to get to the File menu.

              --Also, get a 3-bu

            • I'm considering if I could replace the Mac UI with gnome as my preferred UI
              And why would anyone want to do that? Seriously?

              One of the biggest things for me is the Linux select/paste paradigm that means I don't have to take my hand of the mouse, stuff like that missing is roadblocks to my productivity so I want to try to hit the ground running.
              Works in every X11 app ... has nothing to do with your misunderstandings about MacOS.

              • by MrKaos ( 858439 )

                I'm considering if I could replace the Mac UI with gnome as my preferred UI

                And why would anyone want to do that? Seriously?

                Because I choose it and it has served me well. It doesn't get in my way. Workspaces are easy. I can modify it easily, it supports ambidextrous mouses and the applications I use. My preferred hardware, Lenovo T series, is well supported.

                One of the biggest things for me is the Linux select/paste paradigm that means I don't have to take my hand of the mouse, stuff like that missing is roadblocks to my productivity so I want to try to hit the ground running.

                Works in every X11 app ... has nothing to do with your misunderstandings about MacOS.

                I've never used MacOS so how would I understand it?

        • Hotkeys are in general the same as on windows.
          Only that on windows you use ctrl and on Macs you use Command.

          Of course there are exceptions as the Finder's Command-K for connecting to a server.

    • Well the terminal is pretty much the same as on linux. The odd thing is applications are folders with various fies inside which makes applications self contained, there is the Library which has a folder called application support. It's quite linux like once you are not looking at the gui.

    • by Wolfrider ( 856 )

      --My advice would be to install Macports and Brew so you can get ~95% of the functionality that you'd get from Linux. I only have experience with 10.11 El Capitan, 10.13 High Sierra and 10.14 Mojave - but the best thing I did was buy an El Capitan for Dummies book, because the only Apple experience I had before that was with Apple ][e. The Dummies book provides a pretty good education on the capabilities of modern Mac OS. Once I found out there were virtual desktops I was all good with OSX; and running Vir

    • You seem not to be a "low level guy" when you do not grasp the difference between booting from an external USB device or SD card versus booting from an incremental back up (Time Machine) which might have the boot loader / kernel or other system files corrupted or compromised.

      Docker: download and install it.

      Neovim, no idea. The "standard installer" for non Apple software on Macs is homebrew "https://brew.sh"

      You can basically install every Linux and BSD software on your Mac with homebrew.

      I'm not, I'll be ship

  • by biggaijin ( 126513 )

    This is just one more small step in Apple's relentless campaign to force customers to buy only their proprietary stuff and to prevent anyone else in the electronics ecosystem from making a cent on their hardware and software. This is just one of the reasons I continue to be pleased that I abandoned their products many years ago. If you want the freedom to choose the person who will repair your equipment when it breaks, or add independently-developed software, or buy hardware accessories that don't have a

  • Who wants over-priced and locked down hardware?

  • Pretty soon, the Mac will be just another iDevice.

    Sad... seeing what Apple could have become...

  • right up until some 12-year-old in Lower Slobovia figures out a way to crack Apple's latest s00p3r 31337 abortion.

  • I don't really get the point.

    I deploy Mac's at work, with timemachine, for years. It works perfectly. You can restore easily. It still works on M1.

    Why the hell complain that another software vendor, selling unneeded services, will face issues ?

    On that one, Apple has been ahead of everyone else for years. (and I hate to admit it )

    If you're sold to Apple, why the hell not use what Apple gives you.

Isn't it interesting that the same people who laugh at science fiction listen to weather forecasts and economists? -- Kelvin Throop III

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