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Hardware IT Technology

'This Is a Bad Time to Build a High-End Gaming PC' (extremetech.com) 177

Joel Hruska, writing at ExtremeTech: It's not just a question of whether top-end hardware is available, but whether midrange and last-gen hardware is selling at reasonable prices. If you want to go AMD, be aware that Ryzen 5000 CPUs are hard to find and the 6800 and 6800 XT are vanishingly rare. The upper-range Ryzen 3000 CPUs available on Amazon and Newegg are also selling for well above their prices six months ago. If you want to build an Intel system, the situation is a little different. A number of the 9th and 10th-gen chips are actually priced at MSRP and not too hard to find. The Core i7-9700K has fallen to $269, for example, and it's still one of Intel's fastest gaming CPUs. At that price, paired with a Z370 motherboard, you could build a gaming-focused system, so long as you don't actually need a new high-end GPU. The Core i7-10700K is $359, which isn't quite as competitive, but it squares off reasonably well against chips like the 3700X at $325. Amazon and Newegg both report the 3600X selling for more, at $400 and $345, respectively.

But even if these prices are appealing, the current GPU market makes building a gaming system much above lower-midrange to midrange a non-starter. Radeon 6000 GPUs and RTX 3000 GPUs are both almost impossible to find, and the older, slower, and less feature-rich cards that you can buy are almost all selling for more today than they were six months ago. Not every GPU has been kicked into the stratosphere, but between the cards you can't buy and the cards you shouldn't buy, there's a limited number of deals currently on the market. Your best bet is to set up price alerts on specific SKUs you are watching with the vendor in question. There is some limited good news, though: DRAM and SSDs are both still reasonably priced. DRAM and SSD prices are both expected to decline 10-15 percent through Q4 2020 compared with the previous quarter, and there are good deals to be had on both. [...] Power supply prices look reasonable, too, and motherboard availability looks solid. If you don't need to buy a GPU right now and you're willing to or prefer to use Intel, there's a more reasonable case to be made for building a system. But if you need a high-end GPU and/or want a high-end Ryzen chip to go with it, you may be better off shopping prebuilt systems or waiting a few more months.

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'This Is a Bad Time to Build a High-End Gaming PC'

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  • for system builders, where off the shelf PCs from places like super markets appear like decent products price wise despite their awfully mismatched hardware.
    I've been doing this on the side for the last decade and it kind of hurts to have to build PCs with what I consider substandard parts, because nothing else is available at sane prices.
  • Intel FUD. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Narcocide ( 102829 ) on Thursday December 10, 2020 @03:19PM (#60816888) Homepage

    "Noooo, don't build that high-end AMD system you've been dreaming about for Christmas! No, buy Intel I promise it's better somehow! I need you to believe it's better somehow!"

    How much free hardware has this guy been given by Intel over the years?

    • by Tailhook ( 98486 )

      Please downvote these idiots.

      Intel has its own foundries running its 'mature' but paid for 14nm node and supplying adequate number of chips. AMD and NVidia are competing with each other and also with Apple for precious foundry capacity because they don't have their own foundries. So supplies are limited for AMD and NVidia products while Intel is widely available.

      rsilvergun stupidly says that "the industry needs to get scalpers under control" or there won't be an industry, doubtless with visions of vid

      • by PyRosf ( 874783 )
        you solve the scalper problem by flooding the market. For example setting up a queue at MSRP and selling cards to people when they come available. Magic Cards had this problem a long time ago. So the publisher just printed cards non stop. Solved the problem really quick. Since only a small subset of gamers need RTX 3090 cards and most are happy with earlier releases till the price comes down you could use the same strategy.
        • Re:Intel FUD. (Score:5, Informative)

          by MachineShedFred ( 621896 ) on Thursday December 10, 2020 @05:22PM (#60817360) Journal

          I'm a little surprised that we haven't seen any retailers accepting backorder requests. I'd be perfectly happy to wait in a line, except nobody wants to maintain the line.

          • I'm a little surprised that we haven't seen any retailers accepting backorder requests. I'd be perfectly happy to wait in a line, except nobody wants to maintain the line.

            Retailers in general do not accept backorder requests for products they aren't about to backorder at suppliers. This isn't limited to IT. There's a difference between not-stocked, backordered, and unavailable. At the moment a lot of IT equipment falls in the last category.

      • You are correct: there is no room for "component arbitrage" (read: scalpers) if there is sufficient supply to meet demand. Who would buy from some unknown on eBay who doesn't even accept returns when they can get it at ${RETAILER}, today, for the same or better price, with ${RETAILER}'s retail customer service standing behind the transaction?

      • while Intel is widely available

        Uh...Intel has its own problems, what with AMD forcing them to make bigger chips using the same wafer capacity, thus decreasing the number of actual SKUs made.

      • Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • Re:Intel FUD. (Score:5, Informative)

      by magarity ( 164372 ) on Thursday December 10, 2020 @04:22PM (#60817166)

      "Noooo, don't build that high-end AMD system you've been dreaming about for Christmas! No, buy Intel I promise it's better somehow! I need you to believe it's better somehow!"

      How much free hardware has this guy been given by Intel over the years?

      OK but what part of this article is incorrect? I've been hitting the local microcenter's website to check inventory for any generation Ryzen in the 65 TDP category for the past month and they're always sold out of all but the '3' series. But there are 8 Intel models in stock. Which is about what the article sums up to pointing out.

      • by vbdasc ( 146051 )

        That's because perhaps the new AMD CPUs are too good for the limited production capacity the company can control.

    • The 5000 line of AMD CPUs really are in short supply, especially outside the US. And graphics cards are a mess right now. Good luck getting a 1660 anything (TI, Super or even base model). Even 5500 XTs are in short supply and, well, the 5000 GPUs still have some rather nasty driver issues around adaptive sync and are the the red headed step child of the Graphics industry so they sometimes get substandard coolers (I'm lookin' at you Asus and your 5700 XT who's cooler couldn't stay bolted to the chips enough
    • Re:Intel FUD. (Score:5, Informative)

      by MachineShedFred ( 621896 ) on Thursday December 10, 2020 @05:18PM (#60817336) Journal

      Except that 5 seconds of searching for parts would tell you that none are available, and anyone who is looking for them can tell you that when they do show up for sale, they're gone in seconds. For example:
      - Newegg shows completely sold out [newegg.com] on the entire Ryzen 5000 series
      - AMD shows the same [amd.com]
      - Feel free to look around for them yourself, you won't find them anywhere except scalpers putting huge markup on them.

      I know this because I've been looking for a Ryzen 9 5900X since launch, and have only found frustration at getting one into my "shopping cart" only to get web server errors when attempting to check out, and then have them out of stock once the traffic starts to disappear.

      And because of the complete lack of new latest parts, anyone with stock of n-1 generation parts is marking them up, because they know people still need to buy something in order to sell a computer - an AM4 socket is exactly useless with no CPU in it. I was lucky to find a Ryzen 5 2600X that wasn't marked up stupidly to use for the time being until parts availability improves, and even with that I can only load half the memory I planned into it because the 2600X's memory controller doesn't support the full 4 modules I purchased, where Ryzen 5000 does.

      The summary didn't really strike me as "OMG buy Intel!!" so much as "Hey, if you haven't already locked into the spectacular platform that AMD has launched, you can actually find Intel parts that will still get the job done."

      Now good luck finding a GPU that isn't ancient or massively overpriced. Even the n-1 generation upper-end cards are basically gone and the midrange are priced as if they are current generation technology.

    • This Is a Bad Time to Build a High-End Gaming PC

      How you twisted "Now is a bad time to build a PC" into "Now is a great time to build an Intel PC" could be the subject of a fascinating study on projection.

    • by JustNiz ( 692889 )

      I like everything about AMD in theory, but every time I put Linux on AMD CPUs and/or GPUs, I encounter an assortment of driver and stability problems that just don't happen with Intel/nVidia.

      It seems to me that AMD is really only a good choice for windows-only users.

  • by xack ( 5304745 ) on Thursday December 10, 2020 @03:24PM (#60816906)
    I was in the process of making a Threadripper PC in March but have unable to complete it due to not being able to get parts and to a pc repair shop due to lockdown. It is in a big tower and it's not like a laptop that can easily be brought in I need to wait until proper shops can be opened unrestricted and also be able to get parts without delays. I don't expect my new PC will be complete anytime soon. Got two Macbooks (Intel and Arm versions) to tide me over until I can.
    • This is slashdot, and you need to go to pc repair shop to build a pc?

      Turn in your card at the door.
    • by UnknownSoldier ( 67820 ) on Thursday December 10, 2020 @04:39PM (#60817194)

      I actually built 3 Threadrippers this year: a TR 1920X, 2950X, and a 3960X. I guess I was lucky to finish them off by February. I see the 24C/48T TR 3960X [amazon.com] is actually in stock on Amazon.

      I ordered the Ryzen 5900X from B&H Photo literally the day it was available in Nov. and it STILL has been on back-order for over a month.

      2021 is probably not going to be any better for Threadripper. The reason I say that is that another monkey wrench is Threadripper Pro that is only available from OEM systems. How it compares to Ryzen 5000 is something I really haven't seen. CPU availability in 2021 is still a BIG unknown.

      But yeah, building a new computer this fall / winter completely sucks. I've actually on building my 6th rig for my family -- still stuck on waiting for the CPU and GPU. I actually planned ahead a little and had a "backup plan" -- I bought a Ryzen 3600X back in Oct. so I could at least P.O.S.T. but still waiting for a Radeon RX 6800+ / RTX 3070+ GPUs to even be available sucks.

      I don't see the situation changing anytime soon. :-/

    • If you can apply a band-aid or open a can of soup, you have the skill to build a PC or replace parts.

      What's wrong with your PC that you yourself can't fix with a screwdriver and mail-order replacement parts?

  • Is a gaming workload so similar to a commercial workload that a CPU optimized for spreadsheets etc. (or whatever an intel-architecture CPU is optimized for) would be optimal as a gaming platform. I would have thought that there was space in the market for a truly gaming focused CPU.

    If the argument is that the CPU is just a gateway to the GPU then perhaps it does not matter

    • by Mal-2 ( 675116 )

      The conventional wisdom for gaming is to take four of the fastest cores you can get, over eight slightly slower ones. That is definitely going to hurt on the productivity side.

    • They're all fast enough it won't matter. The only hard part is for those players who demand super high frames per second on details environments, and that's where the high end GPUs show up. But it's not required. You can play most games on lower settings. The main CPU where it matters is mostly about the physics engine and getting data back and forth to the GPU as fast as possible. I found that extra memory helped much more than other upgrades, as you can cache more textures instead of resorting to goin

  • by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) on Thursday December 10, 2020 @03:33PM (#60816946)

    The Core i7-9700K has fallen to $269, for example, and it's still one of Intel's fastest gaming CPUs. At that price, paired with a Z370 motherboard, you could build a gaming-focused system, so long as you don't actually need ....

    To game?

    I mean, how many compromise components are you going to buy on the cheap before you are not really making a gaming PC anymore and should just buy a new Xbox?

    • by DRJlaw ( 946416 )

      I mean, how many compromise components are you going to buy on the cheap before you are not really making a gaming PC anymore and should just buy a new Xbox?

      *snicker* He thinks that you can just go out and buy a new Xbox.

      • *snicker* He thinks that you can just go out and buy a new Xbox.

        I know how hard they are to get retail at the moment...

        However, I can buy an Xbox One S on Ebay right now for $400. Wouldn't that be a lot easier than building out a whole gaming PC? It's less than a really good graphics card...

        The One X (on Ebay again) is $800, pretty pricy (compared to retail) but still cheaper than building a good gaming PC by a pretty wide margin.

        I know that PC gaming it giving you a wider set of things you can do, but pro

    • Wait, Xbox is the compromise. Lower performance, limited games, idiotic controller, etc. A gaming PC does not need to be high end and you don't need to join the master race for it, but a moderate PC with a moderate graphics card still is a better way to play most of the games I like than any console could hope to be. I can play games from 20 years ago all the way up to new games.

  • This is why anyone with half a brain was telling people back in March, "If you're looking to buy a new computer, do it now". These kinds of disruptions to the supply chain were practically inevitable.

    • Well indeed. Not to mention the extra fact that this happens over every christmas period anyway. Post christ mas it will go down. Maybe not to normal but not to madness levels.

    • by JustNiz ( 692889 )

      ...except the next gen stuff wasn't available then.

      • by Mal-2 ( 675116 )

        Yet the advice was "buy anyhow, the next generation will probably be delayed". Paper launches with near-zero availability count.

        • by JustNiz ( 692889 )

          Hardly paper launches. I'm typing this on a PC running a 10900K and an nVidia 3090 RTX, both that I got near launch day.

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • radio shack should sold pc parts.

      • Comment removed based on user account deletion
        • I thought radio shack was already dead? I bought a desktop from MicroCenter back in May
        • by sjames ( 1099 )

          There was a time when RS was actually good. Way back in the before-time when they were mostly staffed with retired engineers and EE majors.

          The first time I went into an RS and asked where the enameled wire was and the sales person gave me the "what's that" deer in the headlights look, I knew they were heading for a crash.

          Fortunately, the web came along and it's easy to order parts now.

  • I guess the "good" news is that game makers aren't releasing a lot of new titles due to the pandemic anyway. It's going slow all round.

  • This is useful information. I'm not a gamer, but I use a high end GPU for acceleration of Adobe products. I'm currently experiencing the Nvidia "black screen" problem and am considering a different GPU. But it appears, now is not the time to buy. That's unfortunate.

    But besides the practical information, there's no indication of why this is happening, except for a comment that blames it on people being sequestered due to COVID. Is that the reason?

    • by EvilSS ( 557649 )
      Yea if you need a high-end GPU right now you are basically screwed. You can find 2080TIs at or slight above retail, but it's a waste of money if you don't absolutely need it and you don't make money from using it. 2080 and 2080 supers are going for well over retail are hard to find right now. I'm honestly kicking myself for not grabbing some 2080TI's when people were dumping them on ebay for $500 right after the 30 series cards were announced.

      As for why, it's kind of a combination of issues. Pent up deman
      • Thanks for the insight. So, basically, hold off for now. Photoshop and Lightroom are key to my business, and the performance increase using GPU acceleration is key. It's frustrating to have the card fail two or three times a day but if you're getting crashes with the 3070, maybe upgrading isn't going to help.

        • by EvilSS ( 557649 )
          Yea I don't know what's going on. Fresh build, tried DDUing the drivers, tried narrowing it down to an application, but zilch so far. Funny thing is, unlike the 3080 crashes in games (which NVidia fixed in a driver update) this doesn't happen when the GPU is under any sort of load. I'll be sitting working and screens go blank then (usually) come back. Of course it pisses off all kinds of programs when it does that, and I usually end up rebooting.

          The really frustrating part is I can not get it to create a
        • by JustNiz ( 692889 )

          In specifically your scenario ( Photoshop and Lightroom), you shouldn't be worrying half so much about GPU compute performance, but instead worrying a whole lot more about the amount of RAM your GPU has on board.

          Almost certainly the reason his 3070 is crashing is exactly because it doesn't have enough ram on board for heavy-duty productivity tasks. That's exactly the market that the 3090 was built to address.

          • In specifically your scenario ( Photoshop and Lightroom), you shouldn't be worrying half so much about GPU compute performance, but instead worrying a whole lot more about the amount of RAM your GPU has on board.

            Almost certainly the reason his 3070 is crashing is exactly because it doesn't have enough ram on board for heavy-duty productivity tasks. That's exactly the market that the 3090 was built to address.

            Now that is extremely interesting. In adapter properties, it shows 2 gigs of dedicated video memory but 30 gigs of "total available graphics memory", which tells me it's borrowing system memory somehow. (I have 56 GB installed.)

            Afterburner shows me constantly hovering around 1870 to 1920 memory usage, with occasional spikes up to 2000 when I do certain operations. I can well believe that it's sometimes spiking over 2048 if I'm doing something GPU intensive. The "total available graphics memory" implies

    • I seem to remember reading something earlier this year that some of the production facilities were shut down because of COVID,
  • Jesus (Score:2, Flamebait)

    I'm a semi-professional gamer, meaning I make enough money on the side to basically pay for my computer and I largely am given games for free (and have been for 20 years), and components he blithely rejects as unacceptable are in my gaming machine right now, playing AC Valhalla at a steady 90fpm at 1080p. Seriously, how much frigging resolution to do you need to play a game?
    • by JustNiz ( 692889 )

      THink how much better your reflexes and situational awareness would be if you had a 4k 140hz ultrawide monitor and a GPU that can keep it maxxed out. That blurry pixel now is clearly a distant enemy sniper and you have more time to respond.
      Nvidia has a study showing that with pro-level gamers, just fractions of a single frame can make a real difference.

      • I can't tell if you're serious. Of course Nvidia would conduct all sorts of tests, wait for favorable results, and then only publish those results. That's not a study, it's marketing. A single "blurry pixel" in 1080p is too small for a human to see. It doesn't matter if you turn it into several smaller pixels and make the monitor wrap around your head.

    • 1080p is "good enough", 1440p is great. 90 frames per minute is pretty bad though, you might want to upgrade from Intel integrated graphics.

    • I am no longer a gamer, but I was thinking something along the same lines. Most gamers go way overboard on their hardware. They act like they need a computer capable of simulating the whole universe just to play a computer game. It also really doesn't matter what CPU you have. AMD may be running circles around Intel, but I find it hard to believe that there's a game out there that an i7/i9 can't handle. Games tax GPUs, not CPUs.

      The whole frames per second thing is another crock of shit. There's a reason mov

  • by JustAnotherOldGuy ( 4145623 ) on Thursday December 10, 2020 @04:22PM (#60817164) Journal

    Not the fastest, must-have chip, but you can get an i5-9600 for ~$200 or so and when it comes to bang for the buck it's way up there.

    Not the thing for high-end gaming but it'll hold its own in almost any other use case.

    (I feel bad for gamers because all the crypto miners are sucking up all the hot new cards, but you libertarians should jump for joy because it's the Free Market at work, right boys? I mean, if you can't get the card you want then you should be overjoyed to see that raw, unfettered capitalism in action!)

    • Are they really still buying nVidia cards for mining? I remember hearing years ago that you needed purpose-built hardware to make more than you spend on electricity, at least for BTC.

      • by G00F ( 241765 )

        yea, the video card manufactures started making mining only videe cards like this one https://www.amazon.com/EVGA-P1... [amazon.com] without video output, cables, etc.

        It's suppose to be a bit cheaper than the normal graphic. But output is limited by chip anyways

  • Without a shadow of a doubt, getting your hands on the specific components that you want to use is going to be the first hurdle to overcome when building a new top-end machine, but with recent trends it is far from the only challenge.

    nVidia's 3090 GPU puts out an outrageously high 350W in default form, but 3rd party partners have already released variants that draw 400+ [The EMTEK 3090 is rated at 410W, for example]. For years now, nVidia have offered, broadly speaking, two power points: either something
    • 3rd party partners have already released variants that draw 400+ [The EMTEK 3090 is rated at 410W, for example].

      Think of all the money you'll save on heating in the winter though.

      • by JustNiz ( 692889 )

        You're apparently joking but this is actually a thing for me.
        In the winter, when I'm working/playing in my small office with the door shut, I don't need the house heating on nearly as much to stay comfortably warm.

    • by JustNiz ( 692889 )

      I truly don't understand why people are so up in arms about an extra 100W here or there...

      Do the math, the actual yearly increase in running costs is trivial, especially if you express it as a fraction of the cost of what you spent on the new CPU or GPU.

      Just do like I did about 8 years ago, invest in a 1200W PSU and never worry again.

  • I started building a new gaming rig in July. With every paycheck I bought a new component. When the new RTX 30 series cards were announced in September, I was excited. I knew there would be a big demand, but I figured there would be 'some' available once I bought every other component had been purchased. Well, it's been 2 months since the cards have been released and as far as I can tell, you can only get them from Amazon for $1400+. No F***ing way am I going to pay that much money to a scalper. My 8
  • I thought everybody gave that up with the most recent set of consoles. Are there any compelling titles that make it worth it and aren't available w/o a PC?
    Is the experience that much better?

    I am actually asking because.
        I Gave up Gaming 15 years ago so I'm really wondering. It looked like something on it's way out @ the time.

    • Serious strategy games like Civ 5/6, Cities: Skylines, and XCOM 2 are my main reason for it. Some of them are available on console, but there's no way I'd attempt to play something like that without a mouse and keyboard. Shooter are of course better with mouse and keyboard, but for some reason people seem to love playing them on joysticks.

      There's also the CRPG genre which is, unfortunately, on its deathbed. Series like Wasteland, Dragon Age, Pillars of Eternity, arguably Mass Effect, were highlights of the

  • Why don't retail stores (online and physical) act to stop scalpers from acquiring all the good stuff? Surely its not in their interests if scalpers buy everything...

    • by JustNiz ( 692889 )

      Because the scalpers are actually buying them from said stores, at least the nVidia 3090RTXs.
      In the USA , nVidia -branded 3090's are literally only available from Best Buy. Their website has been dragging it's ass for months because the scalpers have bots that are pinging it solidly to be the first when stock because avaialble, because Best-Buy remain too stupid to just implement a preorder queue.

      On best buy they're $1499, on ebay they're actually selling around $2100+. I figure the scalpers are netting may

  • Radeon 6000 GPUs and RTX 3000 GPUs are both almost impossible to find, and the older, slower, and less feature-rich cards that you can buy are almost all selling for more today than they were six months ago.

    The GPU situation is far worse than that, at least in Southern California. On the NVIDIA side the are no 3000 series, 2000 series nor many 1000 series cards available. At a local Microcenter, a pretty good electronics store, all they have are 1030.

    • Blame Microsoft and Sony. They've bought up the fab time to make the CPU & GPU for their new consoles leaving AMD's public CPUs and GPUs with limited availability.
      • by Mal-2 ( 675116 )

        Or blame AMD for selling off what became TSMC, although they were in such dire financial straits at the time it's not really like they had a choice.

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