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AMD Hardware

AMD To Support Zen 3 and Ryzen 4000 CPUs On B450 and X470 Motherboards (anandtech.com) 75

Posted by BeauHD from the longer-upgrade-path dept.
New submitter FallOutBoyTonto shares a reprot from AnandTech: AMD today is reversing its decision to limit the BIOSes on the 400-series chipsets. To cut a long story short, the TL;DR mantra from AMD is: "We've heard our audience, and we understand the concerns. We are going to work out a way to support Zen 3 on our 400-series chipsets between now and launch -- we're still working out the what and the how, but we will update you closer to Zen 3 launch. [...]

1. We will develop and enable our motherboard partners with the code to support 'Zen 3'-based processors in select beta BIOSes for AMD B450 and X470 motherboards.
2. These optional BIOS updates will disable support for many existing AMD Ryzen Desktop Processor models to make the necessary ROM space available.
3. The select beta BIOSes will enable a one-way upgrade path for AMD Ryzen Processors with 'Zen 3,' coming later this year. Flashing back to an older BIOS version will not be supported.
4. To reduce the potential for confusion, our intent is to offer BIOS download only to verified customers of 400 Series motherboards who have purchased a new desktop processor with 'Zen 3' inside. This will help us ensure that customers have a bootable processor on-hand after the BIOS flash, minimizing the risk a user could get caught in a no-boot situation.
5. Timing and availability of the BIOS updates will vary and may not immediately coincide with the availability of the first 'Zen 3'-based processors.
6. This is the final pathway AMD can enable for 400 Series motherboards to add new CPU support. CPU releases beyond 'Zen 3' will require a newer motherboard.
7. AMD continues to recommend that customers choose an AMD 500 Series motherboard for the best performance and features with our new CPUs."
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AMD To Support Zen 3 and Ryzen 4000 CPUs On B450 and X470 Motherboards More

AMD To Support Zen 3 and Ryzen 4000 CPUs On B450 and X470 Motherboards

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  • I say good job. (Score:3)

    by dicobalt ( 1536225 ) on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @07:23PM (#60080604)
    They really are trying to help the board owners... but... Both AMD and the motherboard vendors should have seen the 16MB ROM limitation problem coming from a mile away and fixed it years ago. Plus it's better than Intel's release and abandon attitude.

    • Nobody would ever need more than 16mb ROM...

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward
      16 MB should be enough room for anything. I used to write code on a C64 with something like 40k-50k usable memory. We aren't talking about 3D graphics here and texture maps; it's a freakin' BIOS.
      • Actually, many BIOS actually have graphical interfaces these days.

        • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

          by Anonymous Coward

          Sadly, yes. They do.

          There are few things more useless than a graphical BIOS. Pissing away ROM on fonts ffs...

          If you really, reeeeally have to make a BIOS GUI then put in on flash and connect it with a BIOS API. Better yet, just make the API public and let enthusiasts make a million crazy GUIs for you.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Bert64 ( 520050 )

            What's even worse is that the bios gui will often start in a fixed resolution, one that your attached screen might not support.
            I have an intel nuc connected to an old panasonic tv, and while the text mode bootup screen works fine, accessing the bios is impossible because it only loads in a resolution the tv doesn't support.

            • Let's start a petition to bring back text-mode BIOS!

              • Re: (Score:3)

                by JDeane ( 1402533 )

                I really don't see a problem with text mode BIOS's.... It's not like you spend hours in the BIOS (lol well at least you hope and pray not to spend hours there...) A GUI on the BIOS really does seem sort of useless, if your lucky you might spend only a few minutes in the thing over the life span of the computer.

                Or hell if they really want to get all pretty put it on a bootable USB thumb drive, with some sort of full mini OS on it... That way the BIOS on the PC could be stripped down to just the essentials an

            • What's even worse is that the bios gui will often start in a fixed resolution, one that your attached screen might not support.

              If you attach a computer display to your computer then you are supported. If you do something utterly bizarre like use a TV, that's on you. There's no guarantee your TV can display a text mode console either.

              • Re: (Score:3)

                by Bert64 ( 520050 )

                The intel nuc is marketed as a media player, in which it is shown connected to a tv:
                https://www.intel.com/content/... [intel.com]
                This implies that the use of this device with a tv is explicitly supported and an expected use case.

                There are "computer displays" which don't support internal scaling and thus only work if fed the correct resolution.
                There are "computer displays" which don't support the resolution used by this bios, and only support lower or different resolutions.

                HDMI devices are capable of reporting their sup

                • The intel nuc is marketed as a media player, in which it is shown connected to a tv:

                  All of which has absolutely nothing to do with PC's UEFI. If you have a complaint about the NUC then complain about the NUC.

                  There are "computer displays" which don't support internal scaling and thus only work if fed the correct resolution.

                  Horseshit. I've never ever seen a computer display that refuses to show the UEFI screen because of resolution issues. You may find one or two, congratulations. Recommend people never to buy stupid products not fit for purpose.

                  HDMI devices are capable of reporting

                  We're talking about computers here, why are you playing with TVs? I have a better idea. Instead of fixing the completely unbroken UEFI, maybe we should get rid of

          • There's nothing sad about making it possible for computers to actually be used by people. And no, "GUI fonts" are not what is consuming your precious memory. Driver packages for support for individual CPUs is. Features such as network booting, access to an insane amount of peripherals is. Basic features that people come to expect from motherboards, like fan control is.

        • 16 MB should be plenty for a BIOS configuration GUI .. the entire MS Windows 3.11 fit in under 15 MB and that included programs like MS Paint, Solitaire, and Minesweeper. Not to mention Microsoft coded it, so you know it wasn't the most efficient.

          • 16 MB should be plenty for a BIOS configuration GUI .. the entire MS Windows 3.11 fit in under 15 MB and that included programs like MS Paint, Solitaire, and Minesweeper. Not to mention Microsoft coded it, so you know it wasn't the most efficient.

            It is plenty for a BIOS GUI. The question is if it is plenty for the BIOS GUI + peripheral configuration + system performance control + auto memory tuning + hardware detection + support for a wide variety of storage systems including shipping its own USB subsystem + network boot capability + configuration capability for all the chipset related function + ability to self test and self program itself + support the "driver" package that performs platform initialisation for 60 individual CPUs.

            The answer to that

      • BIOS? What year is it? UEFI is more or less an entire friggin OS.

      • 16 MB should be enough room for anything. I used to write code on a C64 with something like 40k-50k usable memory. We aren't talking about 3D graphics here and texture maps; it's a freakin' BIOS.

        Congratulations on showing you have no idea what a UEFI BIOS does. Hint: It's far more complex than your C64 code, complete with own GUI.

    • In AMD's defense, when they were first launching AM4 motherboards, they didn't have the pull to set that sort of spec. They were hurting financially at the time of the 300-series motherboards, maybe they could have specified that by the launch of the 400-series. The X570 boards are a different animal. AMD was in a much better place when they came out. I think that it is great that they are responding positively to the enthusiast community, though.
      • Remember that 400-series chipsets were released a full 2 years ago.

      • Re:I say good job. (Score:4, Interesting)

        by Rockoon ( 1252108 ) on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @09:11PM (#60080786)
        I think AMD just got bit by their own success.

        The plan was to drop AM4 after 2020 and for the 4xx bios series to support the entire AM4 lineup, and we are looking at maybe 7 or 8 (*) processors not fitting in the 4xx bios space, presumably because there have been or will be 7 or 8 (*) unexpected processors released.

        So while they got some of this wrong, its because they have actually delivered more product for AM4 than they planned on, and while it can be viewed as a bad thing that 4xx has gotten sketchy, it can also be viewed as a good thing that there are so many more meaningful processor variants for AM4 than could have been predicted being available.

        (*) My understanding is that APU support takes up about twice as much space to support as does a CPU variant, and one of the upcoming 4000-series releases, the 4700G, is going to significantly revolutionize integrated graphics. The laptop variant of this chip has already revolutionized gaming laptops.

        • They're dropping AM4 after 2020. Zen4 will be AM5 or whatever it is they call it. What was unclear was whether Zen3/Vermeer - the last of the AM4 chips - would work on older boards. AMD didn't want the headache of supporting Vermeer on anything besides x570 and the "new" (really, just delayed a lot) B550. That generated too much backlash, so now they're doing it the hard way.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          They had a credibility problem when Ryzen launched. It was a hard sell to go to motherboard manufacturers and tell them they needed to fit a more expensive 32MB ROM for what they assumed was just another also-ran uncompetitive AMD processor.

          • Except Ryzen processors can't address more than 16mb ROM. Not the MB makers fault, it's AMD's for not realizing how many different processor models they were going to end up with after releasing such a big hit and the market demanding MOAR.

            https://www.hardwaretimes.com/... [hardwaretimes.com]

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

              Sure, but only the AGESA stuff needs to go in the first 16MB. Once the Ryzen CPU is running it can access larger ROMs, so all the fancy BIOS stuff can go in the upper 16MB of a 32MB ROM.

              It's the boot ARM CPU that is the issue here. Higher end chipsets that support 32MB ROMs so support the original Ryzen CPUs that were limited to 16MB. The issue here is that older chipsets from the 400 series don't have enough ROM space to support both older and newer CPUs, and users are upset because it means they can't upg

              • Higher end chipsets that support 32MB ROMs so support the original Ryzen CPUs that were limited to 16MB.

                Completely false. A quick look through the support list of X570 boards across every vendor shows no Summit Ridge CPUs are supported. The only "original" Ryzen CPUs are the ones based on Pinnacle Ridge (Zen+) i.e. the 2 AMD APUs which are numbered like the originals Ryzen CPUs but are not based on Zen because AMD doesn't understand how numbers of their own product generations work.

                X570 and presumably the upcoming B550 based motherboards dropped support for *all* original Ryzen CPUs.

        • Comment removed based on user account deletion

      • they didn't have the pull to set that sort of spec.

        Of course they did. What they didn't have is any idea just how popular AM4 would get, how the enthusiasts would fall over it, how many product lines they would launch within it, and just how much people cared about upgradability (something which even before this announcement was better than Intel's offering).

        The simple fact is no one predicted it would be a problem.

    • They should also support downgrades. What if you upgrade your CPU and it fails? You can't put your old CPU back in? That sucks.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Xenx ( 2211586 )
        Should and can are two very different things. I'm not saying it's impossible to allow downgrades, but given how restrictive they're being with allowing the upgrade I think it's likely that it's just not a viable option.
      • With a failed CPU how do you propose flashing the BIOS?

        • Re: (Score:1)

          by Khyber ( 864651 )

          Duh, my mobo comes with dual BIOS chips so if one fails I can boot from the other.

          • Then it would seem that this may not be an issue for you.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by MrL0G1C ( 867445 )

              Many AMD motherboards can flash the BIOS without CPU:
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

              Plug in flash stick into correct usb port with bios file with correct name, turn on PC, press flash bios button, wait 5 minutes, done.

              • Describe “many”. As far as I’m aware this is a feature on some brands and some boards. MSI is one brand that has this on many of their AM4 boards. ASUS has this only on their expensive AM4 boards. Gigabyte and AsRock don’t have it as far as I know.

              • BIOS flashback is rare on AMD boards. It is getting more common though ... on X570 boards.

          • Cool, so you have a specific brand with a specific feature. AMD is now supposed to make a generalised statement about it? Most motherboards don't have dual BIOS.

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by dillee1 ( 741792 )

        From what I understand it is not AMD putting artificial limit on upgrade/downgrade. 16M ROM is not enough to hold all support data for both new and old CPU simultaneously.

        old BIOS + old CPU = boots OK
        V
        (flash new BIOS, install new CPU)
        V
        new BIOS + new CPU = boots OK
        V
        (install old CPU, for whatever reason)
        V
        new BIOS + old CPU = brick

        So with the new BIOS, you will need a either working new CPU to bo

    • Comment removed based on user account deletion

      • If it cannot fit into 64 K it has no business being in a BIOS! Graphical UIs indeed!

      • The 16MB ROM limit is due to the CPU. I blame the MB vendors for packing in all the useless UI graphics.

        I'm sure you would. Personally I blame Xerox for inventing the GUI in the first place. Computers should be reserved for use for extreme hackers. If you can't figure out how to do everything without a mouse then you have no business playing with out elite tech.

        • Comment removed based on user account deletion
        • But that’s not the complaint. The OP isn’t saying everyone should remove graphical UIs everywhere; the complaint is that they are not really needed for BIOS which very few consumers will access and is not vital to its function. While the old BIOS wasn’t great to look at, so what? With more and more tech being added to BIOS, either MB makers use larger chips which are more expensive or use less graphics.
    • From what i heard, 16mb rom issue is tech just as much marketing. AMD ryzen cpu's have a some limit problem that can't address more then 16mb rom. So issue was a problem on AMD's design not so much problem of board makers. Gamers nexus explains problems with MOST amd cpu's. https://youtu.be/T5X-8vZtml8?t... [youtu.be]

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        It's because the boot process is handled by the Platform Security Processor, which is an ARM CPU inside the Ryzen CPU which can only address 16 megs of flash. It needs to access that ROM to load the CPU microcode in order for it to boot.

        On motherboards with only 16MB ROMs the manufacturer needs to pack in all their graphical BIOS stuff, tools like a bootloader with USB flash drive support and more. There isn't enough space for large microcode packages along side all that stuff.

        It will be interesting to see

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Junta ( 36770 )

          I work with a company with fancy GUI UEFI but fitting in small ROMs, and the fancy stuff can't fit in the ROM.
          The solution? The actual UEFI is small and has no fancy GUI, but when the user takes action that means they would get the graphical companent, it mounts some extended NAND and executes that, similar to booting an OS.

          The ROM is reserved for boot critical function and the text-based setup. The capacity was one reason and another was to keep the grubby hands of the GUI developers off the actually impor

    • Re:I say good job. (Score:5, Informative)

      by Baby Yoda's Daddy ( 6413160 ) on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @09:30PM (#60080814)
      The Ryzen 1000/2000 processors can only address 16MB. The Ryzen 3000/4000 processors can address 32MB. For motherboards with a 32MB ROM, the BIOS is split into two 16MB partitions. FWIW, 16MB ROMs were inexpensive and plentiful than 32MB ROMs for years.

    • Both AMD and the motherboard vendors should have seen the 16MB ROM limitation problem coming from a mile away

      640k ought to be enough for anyone.

      But jokes aside, we're not talking about a new Windows version here. The creep of BIOS size has more to do with AMD's sudden resurgence in the world where heavy competition has resulted in far more options available than anyone could reasonably have anticipated. That and given the X470 and B450 boards already have provided forward compatibility across two generations of product releases, effectively AMD was being heavily criticised for doing something far better than Intel

    • Yes and no. First of all 16MB chips used for BIOS are in many different applications and are cheap and common. 32MB variants are not. While the cost of each chip isn’t that much, every little bit affects the bottom line when talking about volumes in the millions. That’s why only very high end boards today can you find 32MB chips. Second, when Ryzen first launched, AMD was in a terrible state. AMD did announce that multiple generations of CPUs would be supported, it would be a lot to ask for MB m
    • Comment removed based on user account deletion

      • But I have to ask...seriously why give a fuck?

        Because AMD has shown incredible leaps in speed capability between Zen generations. There are many people (myself included) that were quite bummed at the news that our expensive X470 boards wouldn't support two generations up. I for one am looking forward to upgrade from Zen+ to Zen 3. Honestly if AMD confirmed conclusively that support wouldn't have happened I may have gone out and bought a 3950X.

        Ultimately the answer is we care because of the features we paid for. I'm not sure I care to downgrade my netwo

  • I have two 1950X servers which I'd upgrade to 3970X if it was compatible. Ka-ching - $4K for AMD. How about it, folks?

  • Comment removed (Score:3)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @11:21PM (#60080992)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • To be honest I have only rarely upgrade my CPU while keeping the old motherboard, so the use case for this is not as common as you might think. It's valid approach to give choice between cheap and non-upgradeable and more expensive and upgradeable motherboards. If you know you want to upgrade the CPU, why not go for X570? Cheap is cheap for a reason, adding capacity and capability costs money and I wouldn't want us non-upgraders to pay premium for a feature we will never use.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Anil ( 7001 )

        AMD claimed support for the CPU upgrade path with the 450 chipset -- and only other option was the 570 with a big price jump.
        So, I think a lot of people already bought the 450, expecting to purchase a new CPU down the road.

        As for me - I have many times replaced a CPU on a motherboard as an upgrade.
        It is a good strategy for keeping up with new games while minimizing cost and effort. Stretches the usable life of my gaming rig out for years while minimizing cost ($250 upgrade investment (GPU or CPU) ... and t

    • Good way to inspire confidence in your product when an APU that isn't even a year old is showing signs of being EOL.

      I don't think you understand what EOL means. Not having forward compatibility with a newer chipset does not make something EOL. The product is still sold. It's chipset is still sold. That's the very definition of it not being EOL. I'm not sure why people expect some magic forward or backward hardware compatibility. I mean that hasn't really been a thing since the 00s with pretty much every generation of processor locked into a certain chipset.

  • TFS says ""We've heard our audience, and we understand the concerns".

    Remember when Dice, the then-new owners of Slashdot called us the "audience"? February 2014. Three months into Beta. That didn't go over well. :)

    The current owners have done a much better job of not fucking up Slashdot.

    • I'd like to hear how many of these motherboards actually got upgraded after the CPU became available. How large is the actual number of upgraders vs. the "audience" who just brings in the noise.

    • The current owners have done a much better job of not fucking up Slashdot.

      Disagree. When DICE owned Slashdot there was once a case where a comment had to be removed. They ran a front page full disclosure story about it and why they were going along with the order.

      The current owners? We have stories actively being deleted. Posts actively being deleted, entire stories being reposted with changed content maintaining the original posts (making commenters look like they were commenting on something else). We have gone through the blocking of Anonymous Cowards, banning of people (thoug

  • Why? Then you have a working CPU without a motherboard.

    • Sell the working CPU. I don't understand your point. Whether I have an unused spare part after an upgrade is not ever a consideration. It'a computer, not nuclear waste.

  • I'm really wondering how many people really take the time to break down their PC, rip the cooler and processor and install a new cooler and processor?

    I get it that AMD is taking a lot of these precautions due to these architecture changes that they introduced and it seems like they're willing to do the right thing for board owners but why is this such a huge deal to warrant all this bickering?

    Are there really hundreds of thousands of people that will yank a processor, throw it away and install a new process

    • Who said anything about throwing away a perfectly good processor? One of the best selling points about Ryzen was their socket longevity. If you upgrade your processor, you can sell the old one, or use it in another computer, etc.

  • I hate Macs, but damn this PC stuff is complicated sometimes.

    • Yeah. I saw people jogging in the park the other day. Rather than simply not jogging I think I may just cut my legs off completely. This whole deciding on whether to jog business is too complicated sometimes.

  • What they need is a tool that can rewrite the support tables in the BIOS that it flashes. The new Zen 3 compatible one would include support for whatever CPU you used to flash it along with all the information for the new ones. You would be guaranteed to have a compatible CPU to put back into the system if it turns out the new one doesn't work.

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