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Robotics AI United States Science

If Robots Steal So Many Jobs, Why Aren't They Saving Us Now? (wired.com) 131

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Wired: Modern capitalism has never seen anything quite like the novel coronavirus SARS-CoV-2. In a matter of months, the deadly contagious bug has spread around the world, hobbling any economy in its path. [...] This economic catastrophe is blowing up the myth of the worker robot and AI takeover. We've been led to believe that a new wave of automation is here, made possible by smarter AI and more sophisticated robots. San Francisco has even considered a tax on robots -- replace a human with a machine, and pay a price. The problem will get so bad, argue folks like former presidential candidate Andrew Yang, we'll need a universal basic income to support our displaced human workers.

Yet our economy still craters without human workers, because the machines are far, far away from matching our intelligence and dexterity. You're more likely to have a machine automate part of your job, not destroy your job entirely. Moving from typewriters to word processors made workers more efficient. Increasingly sophisticated and sensitive robotic arms can now work side-by-side on assembly lines with people without flinging our puny bodies across the room, doing the heavy lifting and leaving the fine manipulation of parts to us. The machines have their strengths -- literally in this case -- and the humans have theirs.
While robots can do the labor we don't want to do or can't do, such as lifting car doors on an assembly line, they're not very good at problem-solving. "Think about how you would pick up a piece of paper that's lying flat on a table. You can't grip it like you would an apple -- you have to either pinch it to get it to lift off the surface, or drag it to hang over the edge of the table," writes Matt Simon via Wired. "As a kid, you learn to do that through trial and error, whereas you'd have to program a robot with explicit instructions to do the same."

In closing, Simon writes: "Overestimating robots and AI underestimates the very people who can save us from this pandemic: Doctors, nurses, and other health workers, who will likely never be replaced by machines outright. They're just too beautifully human for that."
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If Robots Steal So Many Jobs, Why Aren't They Saving Us Now?

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  • by Joe_Dragon ( 2206452 ) on Monday March 23, 2020 @08:14PM (#59864770)

    we need single payer healthcare or unlink it from jobs.

    • by SirAstral ( 1349985 ) on Monday March 23, 2020 @08:58PM (#59864902)

      It should be un-linked by law. Employer provided health coverage is one of the many examples of how businesses circumvent problems created by your government. When the US government passed Stabilization Act of 1942 employers could not change wages. They still needed to attract talent so they started offering benefits like healthy care to employees. Sounds great right? Wrong!

      What it did was create a perverse incentive for Major Health Insurance companies to start shopping big business entirely cutting the consumer out of the discussion. Now that the cost of healthcare and free-market consumer controls are missing from the landscape cost of healthcare ballooned into what you see now.

      Employers with religious ideas blocked workers from getting some benefits. People that hated their insurance plans had to either quit their jobs to work for someone who did have ones that fit their lifestyle or pay through the nose in the healthcare ripoff market. Insurance companies now interfere with your treatment options because... money. Medicines you need are not on their formularies because they own stock in a different company that makes a similar but less effective drug for your condition.

      You see... but people like it this way. They like their choices being made for them. They like having people fuck them over so they can bitch about the choices they are given. But when they finally have a choice... when they can finally vote for a candidate that can change something... they ignore that candidate and then claim they don't have a choice and continue the status quo. And every time you remind them of their small but still responsible part in how shitty things are... they hate you most for it. Truth never mattered... just don't you dare ever point out that they share some blame in how things turned out. That is the greatest evil of all in the USA... expecting people to accept blame for their mistakes, failures, or lies.

      • Comment removed based on user account deletion
      • That's only part of the story. The Stabilization Act is no longer in effect, but employee health plans are exempt from taxation (unlike regular wages). Tax medical benefits and BAM problem goes away quickly. As an added bonus, mandate that employees should be able to take their share of whatever is paid yearly into the employee plan by the employer as wage instead. As it stands, employees without many medical problems wind up effectively subsidizing their coworkers who do require medical attention (or w

        • by Shotgun ( 30919 )

          Agreed. Add price transparency to that one small modification and medical expenditures will start a steady decline.

      • Now that the cost of healthcare and free-market consumer controls are missing from the landscape cost of healthcare ballooned into what you see now.

        Indeed, but there is one medical procedure for which consumers do shop around for the best value. The benefit to consumers, resulting from competition, has been astounding, as explained in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

        How about extending that success story to many other areas?

        Single-payer would drive healthcare prices much higher because there would be NO competition. There would be NO alternatives to flee to if we don't like the coverage provided by that single government-run system. (As

    • Yeah, we got sick before we could train them, or train them to collect benefits after we trained them to pretend to be sick.

  • Dream on (Score:5, Informative)

    by nospam007 ( 722110 ) * on Monday March 23, 2020 @08:18PM (#59864788)

    "Doctors, nurses, and other health workers, who will likely never be replaced by machines outright. "

    Thousands of gastroenterologists who operated on hundreds of thousands of stomach ulcers were replaced by a handful of pills once a student found out that ulcers were caused by Helicobacter pylori, didn't even need a robot for that.

  • by GrpA ( 691294 ) on Monday March 23, 2020 @08:20PM (#59864794)

    Other people can't breath for you. Most people give up on the effort to breath for another person within minutes, or with mechanical assistance after an hour or so, but a ventilator just keeps going, helping you at your most vulnerable, if you get pneumonia...

    The problem is that there's not enough robots like that to save everyone.

    GrpA

    • So are automated processing systems that process food for us without any humans coughing or sneezing on it. Imagine if this was 100 years ago, where everything you ate would have been handled multiple times by different people, all possibly infected. Mass automation is doing its bit to reduce the spread.
    • Bit of an exaggeration calling a ventilator a robot. Simple, gas-operated ventilators (such as the Vortran GO2VENT) would hardly be confused for a robot. (It's more like clockwork mechanisms.)

  • by nospam007 ( 722110 ) * on Monday March 23, 2020 @08:23PM (#59864812)

    Overall, roughly 1,500 U.S. hospitals have installed the da Vinci Surgical System since it came to market in 2000, according to Modern Healthcare.

    And then there are :
    The Xenex Germ-Zapping Robot. ...
    The PARO Therapeutic Robot. ...
    The CyberKnife. ...
    The TUG. ...

    And the thousands of robots who distribute meals, medication, drinks ...

    • Yeah, about those Da Vinci robotic surgery machines and socialized medicine.

      Prostate cancer in 2008. Had the Da Vinci assisted surgery on Tuesday, went to the movies on Friday. Very advanced machine allowing very rapid recovery.

      The socialized medicine? There was a website about the doctors trained on the machine. I found that my state of Virginia had 88 doctors that were trained on the use of the Da Vinci machine. I also found that the entire country of Canada, and their socialized medicine, had 60

  • by OpinOnion ( 4473025 ) on Monday March 23, 2020 @08:24PM (#59864818)
    Who said automation was going to take all the jobs at once or make factories 100% robot? Science fiction books? Yeah.. someday maybe, but there is this thing that confuses most humans capacity for logical thought. I call it..time...
    • Came here to say exactly this. Their whole premise is a straw man. The concern wasn’t that robots have take all the jobs already. The concern was that robots could and likely will take jobs if the current financial incentives are allowed to continue on their current trajectory unabated.

    • TFA is absolutely retarded crap by some clickbaiting fuckstick, and promoted by angsty Slashdotters afraid of becoming obsolete. The journalistic quality of it is non-existent.

      "Hotels and restaurants and airlines have taken massive hits; Delta has cut its flight capacity by 70 percent. One in five US households has already lost work. And that’s all because of the vulnerabilities of the human worker. When we get sick—or we have to shelter in place to avoid getting sick—the work that depends

    • Every generation or so. People get up and arms about how technology will kill everyone's jobs.
      1880's The cotton gin was supposed to reduce the need for labor (mostly slaves) however it just created more output thus they needed more labor.
      1900's A generation later Water and Coal Mills were supposed to automate everyone's jobs.
      1920's Then the Internal Combustion Engine
      1960's (WWII put a generation on delaying on technology panic) Computers (Thinking Machines)
      1980's Robots (Automotive is dead with those robot

    • I wonder how many of the jobs lost during this economic downtown will come back functioning in the same way when we start to recover.

      It's relatively hard to take a business made for humans to work in with tools made for humans with a layout made for humans with processes made for humans and start to automate parts of that. It's a lot easier to start a business from the bottom based on automating everything. It's the difference between making a hamburger flipper [abcnews.com] and a hamburger machine [techcrunch.com].

      If I were starting a n

    • Exactly! Right now automation is replacing simple, repetitive, mindless jobs. Would you expect the people displaced by these robots to be much help? Of course not, so why should the "robots" replacing these people be expected to be much help.
      Also consider that using these robots is helping as they will not be infected by SARS-CoV-2 or spread it as efficiently as people do. So, they are helping a bit.

  • Yet our economy still craters without human workers, because the machines are far, far away from matching our intelligence and dexterity.

    Actually Skynet was the one who created and released the COVID-19 virus. In 6 months the Terminators will start hunting the survivors.

    After 6 movies and a television show I guess it figured out that while nukes are much more visually appealing, a virus is more efficient.

  • by nospam007 ( 722110 ) * on Monday March 23, 2020 @08:27PM (#59864826)

    Who's doing the testing do you think?

    "The lab is processing about 100 coronavirus tests a day. But it's prepared to do more than 1,000 a day immediately and could quickly increase that to 4,000, Jerome says.

    The demand for tests is rising. Seattle is at the center of a coronavirus outbreak that has already claimed the lives of 10 people in Washington state.

    One reason the lab is ready to test lots of people is its state-of-the-art equipment, including twin devices that extract genetic material from specimens.

    "That all happens ROBOTICALLY," Jerome says, as he gives me a tour of the lab's testing area. "

    https://www.npr.org/sections/h... [npr.org]

    • by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

      The test for coronavirus is essentially a DNA test. The first DNA sequencing was incredibly labour intensive. Sequencing the human genome using the original process was estimated to take decades, and cost billions.

      Now it costs about $40. People are talking about being able to build the next generation of sequencers into cell phones.

  • Wat? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Mike2589475829075289 ( 6219746 ) on Monday March 23, 2020 @08:27PM (#59864832)
    The most prevalent comment I've seen about "robots" "stealing" jobs has been the argument against raising minimum wage because that would lead to more automation. It's also not clear to me how having robots steal jobs would save anyone, there is no mechanism in "modern capitalism" to deal with an inability to pay those who do actual work enough to purchase goods and services.
  • Add an extra sauce of marketing and we're just wasting time and money on anything that does not matter.
    Take a look at Zume's early promotion videos all taking about AI and automation for something as simple as making a pizza.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
    They might just as well have burned all those millions in VC funding to bake their pizza's.

    Same story for WeWork, Uber, Yelp.
    They add nothing to the progress of society.
    They are all simple ideas bloated by the stupidity and greed of investors.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by RazorSharp ( 1418697 )

      That seems to be a pretty broad statement that probably doesn't hold up given a little scrutiny. Some invest in stupid ideas, some invest in genuinely innovative ideas. But the market itself doesn't care about "innovation"—a term so abstract it makes your argument even more difficult. Some of those stupid ideas the market has demonstrated to be viable businesses, while some of them not.

      I also question this notion you mention of the "progress of society." Whether society is making progress or not reall

    • Zume didn't have the goal of selling pizza, that was just a front. They want to become the middle-man in the restaurant supply chain everywhere in the world. An idea that will make them a lot of money if they can manage it.

      I will say that Zume has some of the worst infrastructure engineers I've ever met.
  • by nonBORG ( 5254161 ) on Monday March 23, 2020 @08:38PM (#59864860)
    Robots get Viruses too.
  • I thought a large part of that debate was that a job that used to take 100 people now takes 1.

    None of the WIRED readers I know ever thought that people were sitting around doing nothing because of robots. All the people I know that do nothing readily admit it has nothing to do with robots.

    I'm going to file this under Caronavirus Clickbait.

    --
    Art will never be able to exist without nature. - Pierre Bonnard

  • The idea that we need General AI for it to take over many of the jobs that today are done by people is wrong. In fact the root of the issue is that an AI needs to be only good enough and only one task, that happens to be the one a human worker is paid to perform.
  • In the 1970s, chess players said, chess requires real intelligence. No computer could ever think like a human. In 1997, IBM Deep Blue completely outclassed humans. Then go players said, well chess is a single goal, but go is much harder. It did take about 20 years, and Google essentially solved go with machine learning. Yes, full intelligence is harder. Now some blowhard is saying robots will never take our jobs. Well, if he means in the next 12 months while we battle a virus, he's probably right. But the
    • People seem to have a tendency to view current limitations as permanent limitations. Perhaps it's because we don't want to feel like what we're doing right now is futile, or that the rules we believe govern the word (in this case, economic) are static and dependable.

      The idea that robots may displace a significant enough portion of the workforce that we will have to completely change our system of distributive justice is a scary thought. It's probably easier for most to just deny that it's a real possibility

    • Yes games are great for computers because they have clearly defined rules, the real world can be a little more challenging.
    • In the 1970s, chess players said, chess requires real intelligence. No computer could ever think like a human.

      I don't remember anyone saying that. Who are you quoting? You aren't making things up, are you?

  • The robots won't save us because a) they don't take over the jobs all at once, and b) they are owned by corporations and not by The People so they exist to produce profit, not to improve the lives of The People. Not to mention c) not all of the jobs they can do so far are essential. In fact, most of them aren't.

  • by LynnwoodRooster ( 966895 ) on Monday March 23, 2020 @09:27PM (#59864962) Journal
    What makes you think they want to save us?
  • by Rick Schumann ( 4662797 ) on Monday March 23, 2020 @09:29PM (#59864974) Journal
    For the millionth time: The crapware they keep trotting out called 'AI' cannot THINK, has no cogntive capacity, and will not have that capacity for a long, long time to come (say, 50-100 years) IF EVER.
    'Robots' are not taking peoples' jobs. Get over it.
    • by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

      Gee, you're so repetitive we could replace you with a robot. Or maybe someone already did?

    • The crapware they keep trotting out called 'AI' cannot THINK, has no cogntive capacity

      Quite correct; AI only gives the illusion of intelligence, and yet, there are touchy-feel people calling for AIs to have "rights."

      This devalues genuine human rights. They really haven't thought it through. As machine learning processes become more sophisticated, there will come an arbitrary point at which if I kill -9 one of them, the AI rights wackos would have me charged with murder.

      I could see Russia releasing a worm that spawns trillions of such processes, sucking much of the grid's capacity to genera

  • > typewriters

    Reduced how many secretaries were needed, remember entire rooms of typers? Now all replaced with one individual.

    > robotic arms

    Reduced how many assembly line workers were needed, now just one oversees multiple arms/machines.

    Of course there will still need to be decisions made, but even decisions (who gets targeted for police intervention and which neighborhoods get policed is being decided by AI). More and more "human" judgements are being outsourced to tech. That doesn't mean there isn

  • by bistromath007 ( 1253428 ) on Monday March 23, 2020 @09:37PM (#59864998)

    Honestly, what a silly question. I mean, yes, it's a little more complicated than that; we don't know how to make them good enough at ANY job for them to be worth building for many jobs. But there is no theoretical ceiling to that kind of progress. It's GOING to be a thing someday, and at some point "we'll invent new jobs" is, at best, something we'll have to have a robot do. And I don't think anyone wants robots to invent jobs for us, so... problem.

  • by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Monday March 23, 2020 @09:46PM (#59865020)
    built on Just In Time shipping and bare minimum staffing, so that having a few million restaurant and retail workers unable to go to work is enough to bring the entire thing crashing down.

    Maybe if we had some mechanism to get money into their hands so they could buy food and pay rent but we don't, and 40+ years of non-stop neo-liberalism in our media means that nobody's terribly eager or willing to build those mechanism.

    So instead of letting a few million folk take a 3 month paid vacation we're gonna bring everything to it's knees. The rich will buy it all up at cut rate prices and we can at least comfort ourselves with the knowledge that at least we're not funding the irresponsible lifestyles of others. I mean except all those trust fund babies and billionaire who won the lottery in life.
    • Are you going to say anything about actual automation, or are you just going to complain about the government not having enough power?

      Did Xi Xinping win life's lottery, too? Hmm, I wonder.

      • by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @12:04AM (#59865408)
        has nothing to do with anything. It's a red herring. We're already at the point where automation + science (specifically chemistry applied to agriculture) has saved us. We've got plenty of food, our factories can easily make enough of the essentials with minimal labor.

        The economy isn't shutting down for technical or biological reasons. It's shutting down for social ones. We can't bare the thought of somebody having food and shelter and not having to go to work. Not when we get up everyday and go to a job we hate. But that's realistically that's the only solution.

        This is a problem that can only be solved by society at large. Robots and science aren't going to save us. Not at this point anyway. Maybe in 6-8 months when we have a vaccine.
        • by jred ( 111898 )
          Close, but not quite right. The economy is shutting down because the people can't spend money, either because the stores are closed or because they don't have any due to being laid off.
          • by Junta ( 36770 )

            Well, I would say those are manifestations of the general point he was expressing.

            It would be nice if society could say 'ok, you are going to have a 3 month pause to mitigate this problem, and you'll be able to have basic needs met, even if some goods and services aren't as available for a while' without inducing crises among the workers.

            • To a great extent, that's already happening.

              Landlords are being prohibited from throwing out tenants. Utilities are offering to stop disconnects. The Feds are running up $2 trillion in debt to . . . do something. Maybe not the right thing. We'll see. It may not last for three months, but don't think people are being thrown to the wolves. The long-term consequences may not be good, though.

        • So what are YOU doing to help people that you know who have lost their jobs? Since you have such largess that you can afford to do so, right?

          Or is your entire point that you want someone else to foot the bill, and you want the government's heavy hand to be the one that enforces that decision?

    • instead of letting a few million folk take a 3 month paid vacation

      rsilvergun, how many people are you, personally, going to pay while they're on this three-month vacation?

      Some employers can afford to do that -- and those that can afford to do that largely are doing that, because it's in their own interest to retain their knowledgeable workforce, which will be greatly needed when the pandemic is over.

      But many, especially small businesses that were marginally profitable in the first place, can't afford to do that.

      Rather than putting 100% of the burdens of the pandemic on em

  • "f Robots Steal So Many Jobs, Why Aren't They Saving Us Now? "

    First, they don't "steal" jobs, anymore than copyright infringement is "stealing."

    Second, what value were you adding, if your job can be replaced by a simple machine, neo-Luddite?

    Third, if "saving us now" is a simple matter of effort, where are all those college grads who want everyone else to pay off their loans? Don't answer if your major was underwater basket weaving or kinesiology (current major of choice for sponsored football players).
  • This has got to be peak Slashdot.

    How did this get promoted to a story if not by robots? They want to hide their influence, don't you know.

    But seriously, you know how there were a number of people that could do the math early on, and they saw the impact that the virus was going to have, and everyone else was like: "What, you're crazy, there's only 600 infected in the country!"

    Right, 600 people after 9 weeks. Guess what it will be after 18 weeks? 1,200? Guess again. Try 270,000.

    The same type
  • the added cost of hiring human laborers to do menial jobs for the corporations that run the factories, dont buy the hype because thats all they can do and will be able to do in the future
  • Showed what robotics could do. Make cars. Make computers from small parts. Make really small parts.
    Want more? Invest in robot design to work out what can be done.
    Did not do that? The robot work that was possible will be done by skilled and low skilled humans.
    Invest over decades for the robots you want. Did not do that? Dont expect robots to be ready in 2020...
  • The robots are hoping we all die. That's why they're not helping us.
  • ...Or the Boilerman and Chief fireman, or the telephone operators....
  • they aren't ready yet. Had this disease hit in 2030 or so things would have been very different. Look at the kind of jobs that are laying people off due to social-distancing mandates:

    Restaurant waiters/waitresses
    Movie employees
    Store clerks
    Hotel staff
    etc.

    Wages haven't gotten high enough in much of the West to make automating those jobs economically feasible in 2020. Had the 1970s not happened and had the buying power of "unskilled" labor not cratered due to massive inflation, yeah, you could expect a lot

  • This is the kind of pure, unadulterated crazy that gets reposted on Facebook by old women at knitting clubs. "Hey Dorothy, you know AIs are going to be knitting these socks soon." "Agatha, that's just horse pucky, if they could do that they'd be saving us from the china virus."

  • Management does.

    "Robots taking jobs" is a false narrative designed to deflect blame away from corporations, who hate having employees.

  • by SuperDre ( 982372 ) on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @06:26AM (#59866022) Homepage
    You can bet your ass that factories will further their plans in getting more robots into the production line (which is possible due to the advancement of more universal robots). It's been a big hit for factories now they have to shut down due to too many workers having to sit at home. The advantage of using more robots also makes sure there is even more distance between people that actually are still working, so another reason why a shutdown is even less needed in cases like this.
  • It's not a technical challenge. With automation and robotisation we can produce more than enough for everyone. With most people working remotely, the problem is with the occupations that cannot be done remotely, like in working bars and restaurants, construction etc.

    If we exclude work like in bars in restaurants, the work that still needs to be done manually can be done safer by i.e. working in cells of people. That means working with the same people and have a lot less rotation. When someone gets sick, imm

  • by Junta ( 36770 ) on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @08:52AM (#59866300)

    Despite so many people sitting things out, our supply chain for essentials seems to still be largely present, with stock devastated by hoarding panic rather than shipments not coming in.

    Yes, in large part because a lot of people are still in there, but they are able to continue despite so many people being idled with the help of machines. Once upon a time all our economy could manage was the essentials. Now we have a lot of stuff that is totally optional and that is where much of the economy is.

  • This article is incredibly myopic on a number of levels.

    Firstly and most importantly, robots are saving our butts right now. Why are there no serious concerns about a famine? Because automation has made farming such a low-human-density job that we can produce the food we need without the virus ripping through our farmers and/or contaminating our food supplies.

    In fact, this is true for more or less any essential industry. Electricity and water aren't in real danger. Why? Because they're automated! The few pe

  • Will get, not is already so bad. Automation (which is generally software and not just robotics in factories) is a a serious issue whether it is AI or just an ever growing an complex set of automation scripts which combined replace the need for people.

    The real issue here isn't factory labor, the biggest issue is that knowledge workers the largest employment sector are being displaced alongside management (who are simpler to replace, just as well paid, and yet are proving somehow more resistant to replacement

  • There are still jobs that haven't been replaced by machines. Therefore, jobs aren't really being replaced by machines at all?

    If a job hasn't yet been automated away, that proves it never will be?

    Those seriously are the arguments he's making.

  • The robots, once a problem is solved and reduced to specific steps, produce very efficiently. That's great. But why are they producing in the first place? For human consumption. The humans need to have a way to pay (from their own resources or others) for the robot-produced or -facilitated products or services. No humans (physically or logically), no need for robots. The singularity has not yet happened.

  • The problem isn't about robots replacing humans (not yet anyway). The problem is that robots don't spend money and buy stuff. If humans don't have money to spend, there's no demand for goods and services. No demand for goods and services means fewer jobs for humans, and thus less humans who have money to spend, which means less demand for goods and services, which...

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