Honda Will No Longer Sell Any All-Electric Vehicles In the US (cnet.com) 93
According to a report Green Car Reports, Honda said it discontinued the company's Clarity Electric and has no plans for the model to return. CNET reports: The battery-electric version of the Clarity rounded out a diverse lineup of alternative-fuel options housed in the nameplate. Honda still sells a plug-in hybrid version of the Clarity and introduced modest updates to the Clarity Fuel Cell for 2020. Honda only offered the EV version in Oregon and California, however. Ditto for the fuel cell version as well. The Clarity Plug-In Hybrid was originally offered in numerous states, though low demand drove the car out of the Northeast last summer. At the time, Honda told Roadshow California will be the PHEV's main focus, though the car remains available to order at any Honda dealer nationwide.
Hydrogen (Score:2)
So much for Hydrogen as the fuel of the future.
The Network Effect (Score:1)
"The network effect" plays a big role. The fueling infrastructure has to support a fuel type in sufficient numbers to make it profitable for car manufacturers to target. This applies to both hydrogen and all-electric.
Japan is targeting hydrogen because they are politically better organized, at least in terms of "green" technology, and thus can revamp their fueling infrastructure relatively quick. We have the red/blue global warming "hoax" battle here that stal
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Most battery EVs use exisitng "fuel" stations. In my case, it's a 220V dryer outlet.
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That's fine in town. Not so if you want to go for a longer trip. OP is right - hybrids are the most practical, though you can have both in a plug in hybrid.
Re: The Network Effect (Score:4, Informative)
Huh, so these guys [torquenews.com] that did a coast-to-coast trip in a Model 3 in less than 48 hours... I think they would disagree that EVs can't to long trips.
And that was in 2018. People did it sooner than that in a Model S. As it turns out, if you use any of the tens of thousands of charging stations available from multiple companies, you are wrong.
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An "economy" EV won't. Otherwise, it wouldn't be "economy" with that many batteries. I can see them as commuter cars, but those who don't live near big cities often have to drive fairly far. For example, certain medical care tends to be located only in larger cities due to the equipment cost. Thus, you either need a second car, or live with limits.
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If worse comes to worse, you can walk with a gas can to nearest station....or even siphon from folks near you in traffic ....the emergency ability to refuel is easier with gasoline.
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There are inevitably some exceptions, with the likes of North Dakota still a very difficult state to traverse in any EV, for example.
i mean, if you have to basically avoid entire states...
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Not so if you want to go for a longer trip.
2010 called and it wants your informed comment back.
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I can't afford Tesla w/ extender range option nor the time to stop a lot.on the way.
Is it possible? Yes. So is a Moon landing.
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Plug-in Hybrid then. I've got one, and have gone on long trips, but I almost never use gasoline for commuting. It does help that I've got free charging at work, more convenient than with my tiny garage.
I coworker has the Honda Clarity, which has a 60 mile range on electric so he doesn't even have to charge it every day. It looks nice, but it is a bit larger than most hybrid sedans and more upscale.
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That's fine in town. Not so if you want to go for a longer trip. OP is right - hybrids are the most practical, though you can have both in a plug in hybrid.
Hybrids are the way to go in the US... and pretty much anywhere in North or South America (or, say, Russia, or anywhere with vast expanses of empty land between metropolitan areas.) EVs make more sense in densely populated areas w/o vast empty expanses, like Japan, the EU and good chunks of India or China.
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Your dryer requires a 220V outlet? Are you princess Vespa? [twimg.com]
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Yes, and I look gorgeous, thank you very much.
Re:The Network Effect (Score:5, Informative)
Electric clothes dryers usually plug into a NEMA 14-30R socket (or 10-30R in older homes), which delivers up to 30A at 240V:
https://infogalactic.com/info/NEMA_connector#NEMA_14 [infogalactic.com]
Gas dryers may plug into the more common NEMA 5-15R or 5-20R, which are good for 15A or 20A at 120V...enough to run a motor, a gas ignition system, and a timer, but nowhere near enough to run electric heating elements.
Re:The Network Effect (Score:4, Funny)
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Like many older houses, mine does. It's called a garage. That's where my washer and dryer are installed.
Touche'
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"We have a program for that!"
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Is it hydrogen.exe ?
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That was Toyota not Honda.
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Environmentally, you're just as well off in and ICE.
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Dream on. Petrol is getting cheaper and cheaper. Soon a gallon of petrol will cost less than a gallon of filtered or distilled water. Of course, at this rate, neither consumers nor car manufacturers (outside of ultra-liberal EU) are going to be interested in ending the manufacture of ICE cars. At this point, midsize cars with pure ICE engine (and no hybrid electric aids) are approaching 40 miles a gallon fuel economy. At this rate, you're not going to convince people that buying a 45 thousand dollar tin can
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How does your post invalidate anything that I said previously? It's truly absolutely hilarious that filtered water sold in a gallon jug is soon going to be expensive than petrol, even if delivered through a spout. Gas is cheap cheap cheap. And it's going to get cheaper. And it will stay this way for a long long time. Just wait until Russia or China start offshore drilling or fracking on a large scale. And we still haven't really tapped into the ginormous petrol pump that is non-coastal Africa. So much for "
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Hydrogen will be just fine, especially for trucking. This company is moving things in that direction because it's more efficient for long haul trucking.
https://nikolamotor.com/hydrog... [nikolamotor.com]
Half-assed car gets poor response (Score:3)
The big car makers all seem to start with the same problem: they are hedge their bets and put out a half-assed BEV (battery EV) that also comes in ICE flavors. The result of building for both ICE and battery is that you end up making lots of compromising that ultimately make the vehicle worse. The Nissan Leaf for example used to have two batteries, one for the electronics and one for motor. It's a small issue but it's just one of many issues. Nissan was one of the first on the market so the market tolerated their missteps. Now with some car makers "going all in" and actually start [re]designing BEVs from the ground up, you can no longer put out a half-assed BEV and expect people not to notice it's a half-assed product.
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I'm pretty certain you are incorrect.
Re:Half-assed car gets poor response (Score:5, Informative)
Tesla does use a separatte12v battery. [teslarati.com] Designing this out is actually quite tricky. To avoid using wrist-sized conductors for the high wattage motors, Tesla (and pretty much all electric car) batteries are wired in series to get 350-375 volts. How do you get 12 volts out of that, a DC/DC converter with 80% efficiency? Somehow try to tap out 12v from the 350v array without unbalancing the charging or cell lifetimes? Tesla apparently found it less bother to put in an entirely separate battery. At least, if the main pack runs flat you will still be able to open the doors.
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If you don't have a 12 volt battery, your converter has to be able to handle all of the load that you might conceivably place on the 12 volt system. Or you could use a big capacitor, but that just costs more than a battery that will do the same job.
Mild hybrids could conceivably have only the 48 volt battery, but even that is surprisingly problematic. All the accessory stuff that's already been designed is for 24 volt at most. There is supposed to be an eventual shift to 48 volt for everything, which will p
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Tesla battery bank is 350/375 VDC, which drives all the high current gear, so 12v doesn't drive much more load than the stereo. It does in fact have a DC/DC converter to charge the 12v accessory battery. Stated reason for the separate battery is safety - such things as emergency flashers still work even if the main bank blows a fuse (actually, emergency shutdown). I presume a second reason is, the corner cases of tapping out 12v from a 350v array are deeply icky. They did it in the original roadster but cha
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What I meant to say is, the cool kids are doing 350v. 48v is for forklifts and DIY.
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No. 48V is for mild hybrids. Numerous tier 1 suppliers are offering such systems and Dodge is putting them in trucks already.
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The 12V battery drives a lot more than the stereo. The headlights, ABS, AEB and its radar, power steering, the heating system and fans, power seats and power steering wheel adjust, the motorized door handles on the S and X, the doors on the X, windscreen washer pumps... Some of those are a considerable load.
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Good thing the headlamps are LED and the radar is pulsed, hmm?
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Indeed, although for example an LED headlight is still going to be around 35W so 70W continuous for the both of them. That's a quite significant load, and of course there are lots of other lights like the DRL to run.
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At least, if the main pack runs flat you will still be able to open the doors.
Of course in practice the reverse tends to be true. Usually you can't open the doors but there are still KWHs of power in the main pack.
Especially because no BMS will ever let a battery hit 0% since that would kill it.
How do you get 12 volts out of that, a DC/DC converter with 80% efficiency?
If there isn't a 350v -> 12v DC/DC converter... how do they keep charge in the 12v battery?
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They do have a 350 -> 12v converter, a buck converter with roughly 90% efficiency, all other solutions would be worse. Please excuse me for implying otherwise, that was a "hit submit too fast" issue.
I never dreamed that Tesla would design a car that can imprison you with a flat battery, or that there are no regulations to make such a thing illegal. That alone is enough to make Tesla an absolute nonstarter for me, never mind the proprietary, backdoored spyware with zero user access that runs it. That said
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Boats with inboards follow similar practice, one battery for the house, one for the engine so you aren't stranded.
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... Tesla (and pretty much all electric car) batteries are wired in series to get 350-375 volts. How do you get 12 volts out of that, a DC/DC converter with 80% efficiency?
ATX power supplies internally convert about 350 volts DC to 12 volts. Efficiency can be improved for a cost or since strict regulation is not required, an inverter used instead of a switching converter.
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It's actually a fairly nice car but at a bad price point for the Honda market. Only rich people can afford EV's and they buy Tesla's for maximum status points. The Tesla buyers put their Honda days long behind them.
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Totally expected.... (Score:4, Informative)
Honda, Toyota and most of the Jap manufacturers took the California emission requirements and came up with the plan to offer Fuel Cell vehicles and PHEV's in California (and a handful of other states) to satisfy their legal requirement to provide them but ensured they were crap so no one would actually buy them.
Up until last year most of these manufacturers were still saying Battery EV's were a dead end with no possibility of American's buying them, that is until the Model 3 gave them and the market a schooling. Honda like Toyota has probably decided that they need to invest some real cash and come up with a EV that's actually designed to be an EV, not a piece of crap EV sitting in a gas car design. So they are pulling the shit EV and probably in the process of designing something that's not specifically meant to be garbage no one in their right mind would buy, just like Toyota abandoning their Fuel Cell Vehicle.
The traditional manufacturers are scared to death of EV's. The single biggest cost component in an EV is the battery (the motor costs less than $1000), and none of the traditional manufacturers have invested anything in batteries or produce any that could be used. For a GM or Toyota (or all the others) to shift to EV's they either need to invest billions in CapEx to produce batteries or hand the bulk of the profit on the vehicle to someone that does. EV's are a true market disrupter and the major manufacturers ignored Tesla far too long. Tesla has a 3 year lead minimum in the EV space, not to mention the patents they already hold.
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Most other car makers are focusing on Europe and Asia with their EVs since Tesla is dominating the US mindshare.
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The Honda E is a joke. 135 mile range, crappy interior. $35k for a $22-25k car. Same as with the Clarity EV - it's not a fundamentally bad car, but the price point is nuts. Even when compared to other EVs...for instance, why would you buy a Honda E over a similarly priced Tesla?
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135 mile range is fine for a second car for most households, but for that kind of price one would be a fool to not get a model 3 without serious need for the smaller car for parking.
The clarity BEV wasn't very compelling to me, but the plug in version I thought was interesting (I ended up getting a used i3 rex for what I feel is an insanely good deal).
I'm surprised there's no car makers manufacturing a low range range car for lower
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135 mile range is fine for a second car for most households
I'm sick of this urban-centric outlook. Not everyone lives in San Francisco. For most of the US there is no such thing as a "city car" or a short range second car. Either the car has decent range or it doesn't. I don't want to fill up/charge my car everyday. I would have to charge such a car every day. And I don't even live in the country. My city just has a lot of sprawl.
Get out of your bubble. What most American want is a practical SUV or Truck that doesn't have restrictions on how they live their lives.
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For most of the US there is no such thing as a "city car" or a short range second car.
That's one of the dumber things I've heard this week.
I grew up out in the middle of nowhere, and everyone had their bang-about vehicles and their "goes on trips" vehicles.
This past summer I drove over 600 miles in a day and didn't have to stop for gas.
In your rusty farm truck with holes in the floor you have to be careful to not put your foot through? Or in your primary vehicle?
The GP was talking about the secondary vehicle that most people, especially people out in the country have. City folks don't tend to have them, because they don't have anywhere to park them, and they likely have
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Shit, I posted a couple hours too soon.
Apparently Tesla has now sold a million vehicles [slashdot.org].
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I have a practical truck that takes gas, and I have a practical car that I never need to f
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I'd happily take a Honda E over any Tesla at any price point.
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Driven a model 3 performance in anger with track mode turned on for over an hour straight. The car stuck like glue and turned as directed with an utter lack of steering feel. It was boring. Also uncomfortable in that awful interior. Also a bit large to have fun on a twisty road. A good appliance is still just an appliance. So I returned it to the dealer. No thanks! My much slower, much lower grip FRS is 10 times the fun. Our larger, far more comfy i-pace is 5 times the fun. Model 3 Performance is a
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I mean, "at any price point" is stupid.
But I want a hatchback. And I like a shorter wheelbase. I'd cross shop a Honda E, Leaf, and BMW i3, but BMW parts/service are idiotic. So that leaves the Honda E or the Leaf (blah styling).
For why I won't buy a BMW, here's how you replace an i3 battery:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Stupid? And you then have to register the battery, which is a whole fraught process. Or you can just pay the dealership the low low price of $500 to do it.
No.
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The Honda E looks cool. And the Sport version looks really cool. Come on Honda, we need some options!
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https://www.wired.co.uk/articl... [wired.co.uk]
Yeah, I would drive the E, and I would drive the hell out of the E Sport
Sam
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Uh - that's not true. There are not enough of them on the road to put a dent in the company's emissions numbers.
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For a GM or Toyota (or all the others) to shift to EV's they either need to invest billions in CapEx to produce batteries or hand the bulk of the profit on the vehicle to someone that does.
Or they need a large number of manufacturers to start producing batteries so that competition drives prices down. You wouldn't argue that Apple is handing over the bulk of the profit to the various component manufacturers that make the memory, chips, or other parts that go into their computers or and devices.
Right now there's a bit of a chicken and egg problem. There's not such a massive market for batteries that companies will invest in producing them at scale and because they're so expensive it's harde
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That's not how it works. The ZEV mandate [autoalliance.org] is based on number of vehicles sold, not vehicles offered for sale. Each manufacturer is required to sell a certain percentage of ZEVs (the percentage incr
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Low gas prices (Score:2)
have been the norm for a while, and look to continue for the foreseeable future if today is any indication.
This is a good time to be selling pickup trucks and SUVs. And a good time to buy one if you are so inclined.
It's overpriced junk. (Score:4, Insightful)
Honda's problem is that they just weren't trying.
It's about the same size as and priced comparable to a base Model 3, with a third of the range and nowhere close to the acceleration.
It might have gotten some interest a decade ago. But it's a sad joke in 2020.
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Should really have called it the E. Honda though...
I cannot stress how much I wish I could mod up this statement right now
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America take a giant leap (Score:1)
Totally makes sense (Score:1, Flamebait)
Petrol prices (outside of the idiotic state of California) are soon going to be such that it's going to be cheaper to buy a gallon a gas than a gallon of distilled water. In fact, I haven't seen gas prices above 2.5 dollars a gallon over the last whole fucking decade (outside of the moronic state of California). So tell me, what's the frigin point of buying the fucking expensive electric vehicles with their limited range and long charging times when I can go out and buy a Honda Accord or a compact SUV in th
The Clarity was not a good BEV (Score:3)
This was entirely expected. The all-battery Clarity was a near useless car. 89 miles of range made it a local-only car like the Nissan LEAF, but at a higher price. Honda's bugs with the cars charging system meant it sometimes couldn't be reliably charged for some (several people at my work had this problem). At least with the PHEV version you could still be able to get somewhere. But with the BEV version of the Clarity, you could be stuck. And it didn't help that the BEV version was purely a CARB compliance car; available in only a few states.
Honda still doesn't "get" BEVs; maybe they'll do better on their next iteration. (but I doubt it)
(FWIW, I've driven nearly 100K BEV-only miles, starting with a LEAF 6 years ago; my wife and I only have BEVs (2 Teslas) now)
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Have you seen the new Honda e? Maybe not, they are not releasing it in the US, only in Europe and I think in Japan. May also be too small for the US market, I think you don't like small cars.
Fully electric. Dedicated EV platform designed from the ground up. The interior and tech are unlike anything else on the market.
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It also didn't help that it's a butt-ugly car. And I say this as a Honda fan. That thing is just atrocious.
Styling creases and converging lines all over the place, mismatched styling cues EVERYWHERE. It's like it was designed by committee or something.
And we in the UK are getting all excited .. (Score:2)
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I'm also hoping for that one to make it to the US. But Honda's discontinuing the Fit/Jazz here, so... ???
The PHEV is better anyway (Score:2)
The EV range of the Clarity PHEV isn't that much less than the BEV, and you can always fall back on good ol' gasoline if you need to drive for 24 hours without stopping for more than a fuel fillup for some reason.
I have the Clarity PHEV and love it. With a home charger and given my typical driving patterns, the ICE uses about 2.5 gallons of regular unleaded for every 1000 miles driven. Sure, electricity isn't free, but if you agree with the overall sales pitch of an EV, it's hard to disagree with a PHEV as