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Power Earth

Wind Farms Are Sending Giant Turbine Blades To Landfills (staradvertiser.com) 334

The Associated Press reports that renewable energy companies like MidAmerican Energy face an unexpected problem when they try to replace the giant blades from their wind turbines Landfill operators thought the composite blades, cut in 40-foot or larger sections, could be readily crushed and compacted. "But blades are so strong -- because they need to be strong to do their job -- they just don't break," said Amie Davidson, an Iowa Department of Natural Resources solid waste supervisor. "Sometimes pieces fly off and damage equipment" in the compacting process, she said. "Landfills are really struggling to manage them, and they just decide they can't accept them...." Bill Rowland, president of the Iowa Society of Solid Waste Operations, said he's unsure "we as a society" considered what would happen to the blades as older turbines are repowered. "There wasn't a plan in place to say, 'How are we going to recycle these?' 'How are we going to reduce the impact on landfills?'" said Rowland, director of the Landfill of North Iowa near Clear Lake...

When it started investing in wind, MidAmerican believed a blade recycling option would emerge. "Thus far, it hasn't," said Geoff Greenwood, a spokesman for MidAmerican, adding that the company is talking with other wind developers that may be interested in using the blades for their own projects...

The difficulty in reusing blades adds to the complaints opponents make against wind energy. Some who live near the turbines complain that low-frequency noise and light flickering from the blades make them ill. And the spinning blades can kill migrating birds and bats.... Kerri Johannsen, the Iowa Environmental Council's energy program director, said more recycling solutions are needed. But, she added, it's not a reason to "turn away from wind energy -- a solution that can help mitigate the most dangerous threats from climate change...."

According to the article, one U.S. Department of Energy researcher told the Des Moines Register that wind energy will create over one million tons of fiberglass and other composite waste, adding that "The scale of the issue is quite large... And it's a larger sustainability issue."
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Wind Farms Are Sending Giant Turbine Blades To Landfills

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  • by Kokuyo ( 549451 ) on Monday November 18, 2019 @03:42AM (#59425318) Journal

    People like to offload their non-immediate issues on tomorrow-them. Nothing new.... I don't think this is going to get any better because hat kind of reasoning has been with us for millennia.

  • by bradley13 ( 1118935 ) on Monday November 18, 2019 @04:03AM (#59425348) Homepage

    It's not the blades that are the problem, it's the landfills. Even if a modern landfill manages to seal off the waste from rainfall (want to buy a bridge?), what a wonderful "gift" to leave for future generations. The pollution caused by landfills that are not properly sealed (or whose seals degrade over time, which is inevitable), is massive, and basically the only fix is to dig it all up and put it...in another landfill.

    Incinerate. Get the energy back out of all that material, instead of occupying huge swaths of land, and letting weird chemicals seep out over decades. Wind turbine blades are mostly composites, and composites burn just fine. On top of that, the subsequent processing of the gases and ash return valuable elements, including nearly all metals. This reduces the need for mining, which is a huge environmental win.

    Many people seem to react badly to the idea of incinerators. Apparently, back in the 1950s or so, numerous incinerators were built with basically open chimneys, and they polluted horrible. Modern incinerators are extremely clean. Of course, the climate activists will protest the CO2, but I submit that the long-term harm caused by landfills is at least as bad, and likely worse.

    • by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

      How are you going to fit said blade into the burner? How will you handle the residue in the burner?

      The problem isn't that carbon fibre doesn't burn. The problem is that it's so damn hard and strong that it's ridiculously costly to cut it into small enough pieces to actually fit into burners.

      There are also some issues with burning it, but those are secondary to problems of just getting those huge blades into small enough parts where they will fit into existing burners and actually burn effectively.

      • by K. S. Kyosuke ( 729550 ) on Monday November 18, 2019 @04:43AM (#59425430)

        The problem is that it's so damn hard and strong that it's ridiculously costly to cut it into small enough pieces to actually fit into burners.

        The what now? It's no steel. Cut it with a water jet or something.

        • by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

          It's stronger than steel. It's carbon fibre. We use it instead of steel because it's stronger and lighter than steel.

          And working it is much, much harder than steel, which is why it's so damnably expensive.

          Most people forget that one of the main reasons why wind turbines only became a thing about two decades ago is primarily because we had no materials that could meet the strength and weight requirements for megawatt-class and larger wind turbines.

          Those blades are incredibly strong. Because they have to be.

          • by Smidge204 ( 605297 ) on Monday November 18, 2019 @07:05AM (#59425688) Journal

            "Stronger than steel" doesn't mean much without qualifiers.

            Carbon fiber has roughly 3x the longitudinal higher tensile strength of steel, but it also has roughly 1/20th the shear strength. You'll have a hard time snapping a carbon fiber thread with tension, but you can easily cut them with scissors.
            =Smidge=

          • It's stronger than steel. It's carbon fibre. We use it instead of steel because it's stronger and lighter than steel.

            Uhhh...steel is isotropic. Carbon fibre is not.

            • by Pyramid ( 57001 )

              Which is why the fiber is laid up in multiple directions to give the final product the strength it needs in all directions.

        • Comment removed based on user account deletion
      • CFRP shatters easily.
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

        • by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

          Are you seriously comparing a thin competition bike wheel that is specifically designed to be as thin and light as possible and survive just a few hours of stress without breaking to huge wind turbine blades that are specifically designed to take massive stresses for over a decade?

          Really?

          • They were designed to withstand a very specific type of stress. That is perfectly possible with carbon. But if it gets stressed in a way it is not designed for it delaminates and shatters because the plastic matrix is far weaker than the carbon fibre mats. Case in point, carbon saddle posts - pretty strong ones, mind you, for general MTB use - that are clamped just a little too tight. Have ruined one myself.

      • Recycle them them. Give me a few guys with the right qualifications and half mil to spend on plant and I bet I could have a facility up and running to take those things and refurbish them into good-as-new ones.

        This is all nimby shit anyway. Like the whole "low energy vibrations making me sick". That shits been studied, it isn't real. Its the same kind of "5G is making us all get autism due to scary ATOMS" nonsense from middle class whingers who hate progress.

        Wind energy is proven technology that significant

        • by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

          >Recycle them them. Give me a few guys with the right qualifications and half mil to spend on plant and I bet I could have a facility up and running to take those things and refurbish them into good-as-new ones.

          A people far smarter than both of us spent billions in this field. Yes, thousands of times more than what you're asking for. Because carbon fibre and composites with it are all but impossible to recycle in a cost effective way. It's so hard that makers have to throw out products that come out of t

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by dunkelfalke ( 91624 )

      It is the carbon fibre reinforced plastic that is the problem and will be even more of a problem now that most airplanes use a lot of composites. Unlike aluminium and titanium that stuff is not recycleable.

    • by Morgaine ( 4316 ) on Monday November 18, 2019 @06:56AM (#59425676)

      Indeed, the blades are not the problem. In contrast, the idea of crushing and compacting them for disposal in landfills is sheer failure of thought, not only making the landfill problem still worse (as you point out), but wasting a very valuable resource.

      The ex-turbine blades are highly engineered structural components which can still be used for structural purposes even when they are no longer usable in wind turbines.

      There are very many alternative structural uses which could continue to benefit from their material strength for decades, if not centuries. Some of these could even yield profit instead of the total loss of landfill, like making sections available to the home DIY enthusiast market which is always in need of good structural materials. "Ex-wind turbine" is a statement of strength with market value, just like "ex-railroad" is for sleepers.

      My preferred redeployment would be to use them as scaffolding for new habitats. Just stick one end of a few dozen of them into the ground and soon enough nature will colonize the man-made structure into a dense grove. Or embed them into the sea floor to create man-made reefs at desired locations, in the same way as sunken ships create valuable marine habitats but in unhelpfully random places around the world.

      To destroy strong structural materials shows no imagination, just a destructive throwaway mentality.

      • New York City successfully disposed of large numbers of old subway cars by sinking them off shore to create reefs that became habitats for fish. Since many turbines are located in the agricultural mid-west, how about an architectural design contest for using discarded blades as structural elements to build barns and other farm structures? And how many tons of coal ash are generated per exawatt-hour of electricity generated vs tons of discarded turbine blades for the same amount of energy?
    • Weighing those sorts of concerns against each other is legitimate, and incineration is what we do with hazardous wastes, generally. I suppose if we had enough 'green' energy to run an effecient incinerator and run some active sequestration it'd be the best of both worlds.
  • Could you use them to "power" a sailboat?

    How different would the general shape be from a wingsail?

    Some of those blades are huge! You could make something big, and ocean going that's capable of hauling freight.

    Cheers!

  • by RyanFenton ( 230700 ) on Monday November 18, 2019 @04:15AM (#59425366)

    Seriously - these 1990's lines about seeing blades in the distance being a health hazard from flickering lights...

    This is overbearing real estate developer, fossil fuel prospector bullshit.

    They're large turbines. Variants are used in all kinds of industrial uses all the time. Only instead, in this particular use, instead of say, running a cruise ship using the dirtiest possible fuels using 80,000+ gallons of fuel each day - it's generating energy in place of fossil fuels.

    But no - we can't allow ourselves even this teeny tiny bit of something a little less bad - no we have to devil's advocate every aspect of it as every opportunity.

    And present it without any real comparison to what it's replacing.

    I'm not against these folks being wrong - just the acceptance of this absurdity as valid news.

    Ryan Fenton

    • by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

      This is about the fact that first large batches of wind turbines are coming to end of useful life, and we are noticing that we have no means of getting rid of certain parts in them. Parts like the blades, which have no analogue in "other industrial uses". Those are utterly unique parts.

      • Water jet cutters aren't difficult or expensive if you really need to reduce them. But it's not actually that big a problem to just bury them as is either.

        It's literally sequestering carbon that way.

        The complaints are full-on bullshit.

        Ryan Fenton

  • by BAReFO0t ( 6240524 ) on Monday November 18, 2019 @04:31AM (#59425402)

    "Oh noes, Fan blades are a bit tougher to crush ... unlike the motor blocks we shred daily .. Therefore we must abolish wind energy, and go back to fossil fuels!"

    So build a bigger shredder! Or melt them in a long oven. It's not exactly harder than cleaning black goop off half a continent's worth of coast, now is it?

    Jesus, if it was for people like you, we would've never gotten to the moon, because "Oohhh, it is soo hard to actually achieve something worthwile!".

    Can we have that 50 swastikas troll back? At least he had some fire!

    • by ledow ( 319597 )

      It's not that it's impossible.

      It's that the cost of doing that, and the cost of that big blade-chomping machine, is untenable compared to just landfill + whatever associated costs of doing that (e.g. fines for landfilling or whatever is in place).

      You make a big blade-chomping machine in a place that can manoeuvre and handle these huge things, and put in place all the machinery and access and transport for... what... a few blades a year... to get non-recyclable, unusable junk out of them, crushed and put int

      • Are many products thought about cradle to grave? I've read about ship wrecking hards, and they just beach the things in the third world and locals haphazardly carve chunks off of them with angle grinders and plasma cutters and so on. I'm not suggesting that we don't try to think of product end of life (or routinely leave it to those poor and desperate enough to 'resolve' the waste in a dangerous manner) but I think it is hardly unique to this case.
  • > complain that low-frequency noise and light flickeringÂ

    have there been measurements to substantiate those claims

    or is this another case of "the wifi is giving me headaches" ?

    • by Mashiki ( 184564 )

      have there been measurements to substantiate those claims

      There is. [canada.ca] Only most sample sizes are tiny, even though what was reported by people was recorded at least in the federal study done here in Canada. What can't be concluded is whether some people are more sensitive, or there are other environmental factors that cause/and/or amplify it.

    • by burni2 ( 1643061 ) on Monday November 18, 2019 @07:30AM (#59425734)

      First I need to say, wind turbines will generate infra sound that is for sure, but on the other hand trees and building that are affected by wind will do too.

      Flickering(reflection) is long gone because the top coat was changed and got more rough and less reflective.

      Flickering from shadow going over someones property can be ommitted by a time and date depended shutdown, that is often also a regulartory requirement for operation. This will not hamper energy production much, because those effects will only occur in the morning or late afternoon when the sun is low (long shdows) and sun will change pretty fast around that time.

      Second I need to say wind turbines will generate machine operation noise too and yes you can hear a wind turbines humming(gearbox for example and blade "woosh - woosh - woosh") - at around 800m this sound will mostly have blend in with the white noise produced by the wind itself with trees and leafs for example.

      I have spent much time working around and at wind turbines also in the down wind area and I cannot say that I have experienced anything except that inside a certain radius I can hear the normal sound. I live near wind turbines ~1km (0,7 mi) away.

      The problem with those infra sound affected people is that my judgement is that those people that are against wind turbines and think that they are an eye sore can be affected by psycho somatic effects. Interestingly this "wind turbine sickness" appeared after people held talks at anti wind ralleys.

  • Some who live near the turbines complain that low-frequency noise and light flickering from the blades make them ill.

    Those people should see how healthy they feel living next to a coal plant, or just going without electricity.

    • Those people should see how healthy they feel living next to a coal plant, or just going without electricity.

      Or they could just use electricity from a nuclear power plant?

  • This has been a concern with regards to wind turbines since the very beginning. They provide renewable energy, but the machines themselves are unrecyclable.
    • On the other hand, solar has turned out insanely recyclable. Sometimes we can delaminate the silicon wafers and outright reuse them. We recover all the metals and trace elements. The plastic components are recyclable.

      Parabolic concentrated solar is just polished stainless steel and a heat engine.

      Solar is reliable, affordable, and renewable; wind is ass.

  • by burni2 ( 1643061 ) on Monday November 18, 2019 @06:19AM (#59425610)

    Ok, I must admit, I have worked with wind turbine blades. Yes, they are sturdy. But last time I have had one scrapped, it was cut (yes cut, with dust suppression) and then shredd into smaller pieces and those parts were burned in a cement factory. Because they have separators for the glass residue.

    No problems at all, so basically this report tells me, they had no support from the blade/turbine manufacturer about the structural weak points.

    I think the landfill operator missjudged the effort needed to cut it into pieces that really can be shred, it's just more cutting and less dropping a big weight on certain sections. As the blade gets thinner to the tip a weight will not slip off there that easily.

    A landfill is really the worst idea to dispose wind turbine blades. Another is to grind up the blade and use it as an addition to asphalt.

    And pls don't complain about CO2 emissions from the blades being burned, they have saved many times of that. Everything we do in our CO2 driven world will emit CO2, and we are on the way to replace CO2 usage bit by bit.

    • Thanks for your perspective! It was hard to imagine this stuff was as impossible to cut as was implied in the discussion thus far, otherwise we'd be building space elevators out spent turbine blades...
  • Wouldn't these blades be a good resource for creating housing? I think you could make at least a few roofs for each blade. Or walls. Or whatever. Guard rails for highways. Small rural bridges. There has to be something that these can be reused for instead of being recycled...
    • by burni2 ( 1643061 )

      Generally I would say, no. Because blades that have been cut or cracked open - or have been worn down over time by environment - have glass fibers laying on the outside, when you touch it you will have an itch from the cracked small fibers sticking on your hand.

      And believe me, a blade that is nearing its EOL will be run down - because repairs except safety critical will not occur because adding 3% efficiency 1yr before EOL will not cover the investment.

      I have seen blades where the erosion protection failed

  • by Viol8 ( 599362 ) on Monday November 18, 2019 @07:16AM (#59425706) Homepage

    There appears to be no problem cutting up 100K ton oil tankers or demolishing old skyscrapers, so someone please tell me why 10 ton turbine blades are such an issue?

    Whats that? They can't be crushed? So don't crush them, cut them up. Is he slag from coal fired power stations crushed? No, its dumped in small hill sized heaps and left for half a century. But thats apparently ok.

    Just because some rednecks in the middle of nowhere can't used their 1960s crushers on them doesn't mean it can't be done.

  • Rather than re-purpose them?

    The blades are super strong...okay...so use them. Seriously, you're telling me that these things could not be planted in cement to form the ribs of a gazebo? Could re-purpose them by building gazebos in schools across America. Foot bridges in parks. Heck, I wonder how they would fair hammered into dirt and mud as non-rotting pilings.

    THINK

  • Doesn't that defeat the purpose of being environmentally friendly if they can't both produce energy without fossil fuel, and be recycled to be used for other use's???
  • Well the first suckers could claim ignorance or over optimism but now the cost of disposal should be factored into overall costs. Need to start setting aside for disposal. Have a nearby volcano to drop them in? Shoreline barriers for wave surges and erosion reduction like those concrete blocks? There will be a limit based on area. This seems surmountable with adjustments, but need to get the true costs involved up front.
  • Though composites and leaded glass can’t be recycled in the same way as ordinary plastic and glass, having a lot of one kind of hard-to-recycle waste just means we have to develop a specific recycling processes for these items. Leaded glass is valuable for certainty applications, and somewhere out there will be a use for turbine blade composites.

  • No, it's a "conveniently ignored problem".

    From 2011: https://co2insanity.com/2011/0... [co2insanity.com]

    From 2009: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.o... [semanticscholar.org]

  • That's like saying "You know, this car is just too fuel efficient."

    It's a solution looking for the problem. There has to be a really good use as building materials, it just takes a good designer.

  • Two months ago, the fossil fuel industry (I assume) put out information about the "waste disposal" problem with wind turbines, stating that 720,000 tons of turbine parts would have to be discarded over a 20 year period. Oh my gosh! That's a big number!!!

    But...the coal plants in the US produce that much waste EVERY TWO DAYS, and the coal ash contains heavy metals and known carcinogens, and often winds up polluting groundwater and rivers. So how about a little perspective? https://www.nytimes.com/2018/0... [nytimes.com]

    I assume today's article is more of the same FUD. Don't be fooled.

  • by cnaumann ( 466328 ) on Monday November 18, 2019 @11:42AM (#59426646)

    How many million of tons fiberglass roofing shingles get sent to landfill every year?

  • by Socguy ( 933973 ) on Monday November 18, 2019 @12:10PM (#59426760)
    Just another hit piece. For some reason an article about disposing of blades feels like it's a good idea to include long dispelled myths such as low frequency noises affecting human health.

    If you really want to destroy the blades, just feed them through an industrial shredder.

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