Laser Cutters Sold On Amazon and Elsewhere Are Cheap, Fun -- and Dangerous (fastcompany.com) 81
harrymcc writes: Go to Amazon, Walmart.com, and eBay, and you can find an array of companies selling laser cutters and engravers for a few hundred dollars -- dramatically less than you'll pay for a brand name such as Glowforge. But these budget models lack the safety features required to keep lasers safe, and may even have ignored the required FDA paperwork to put them on the market. Over at Fast Company, Glenn Fleishman wrote about the dangers of these devices. When alerted of specific models, the ecommerce sites removed them -- but many others remain for sale.
You'll shoot your eye out ... (Score:2)
Ralphie!
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This story is a very real warning about the incredibly unsafe and dangerous Chinese-made laser cutters being peddled everywhere that this sort of stuff is peddled. Everything about these things is just riddled with dodginess: No hood, no safety interlocks, in fact no safety anything, cheapest possible components (so the same problems you get with with cheap crappy 3D printers), ludicrously inflated ratings for the laser where, if they're even capable of that power level, will burn out within a few minutes
UL - Underwriters Laboratories (Score:4, Informative)
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> UL listing does nothing ... It just independently certifies the product meets basic electrical guidelines regarding isolation and shock potential.
Uh, that's the POINT al0ha is making. Many of the things for sale on Ebay and Amazon without the UL listing WON'T meet those guidelines so they don't even bother trying, hence their danger.
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Re: UL - Underwriters Laboratories (Score:1)
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But would you really want to buy an electrical product that doesn't have the UL label? Especially if you're not an electrical expert. It's no guarantee of quality, but the lack of the UL is a near certainty that the product is short-cutting its quality.
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But would you really want to buy an electrical product that doesn't have the UL label? Especially if you're not an electrical expert. It's no guarantee of quality, but the lack of the UL is a near certainty that the product is short-cutting its quality.
If you buy from ebay or Amazon you're almost guaranteed to have a product somewhere in your house without a UL listing. Incidentally UL label isn't the only game in the world, and it sure as heck isn't the best one in terms of your safety. The barriers to getting a UL listing are sufficiently low that often companies will consider other standards during the design and just magically get granted the UL listing afterwards.
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Amazon last year pulled a bunch of the 'Eclipse Viewing' glasses that were totally fake and would result in blindness.
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It just independently certifies the product meets basic electrical guidelines regarding isolation and shock potential.
That seems like a good thing to me, especially since compliance with government standards can sometimes be side-stepped, bought, or cheated, resulting in a "passing" certification. Having another set of tests works to everyone's advantage.
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UL is a private organization, not a governmental one.
They've been a nonprofit for over a century, but became a for-profit one seven years ago, with the testing lab spun off as its own nonprofit.
Re: UL - Underwriters Laboratories (Score:1)
UL is a private organisation. It is the opposite of 'big government.' I have had direct dealings with UL and have visited their actual laboratories in Chicago.
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Slash-vertisements have come a long ways. But they're still obviously advertisements.
*Sigh*
I miss the days of the old slashdot.
Re: UL - Underwriters Laboratories (Score:1)
Am I the only one who asks wtf the FDA would be involved?
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Look up the youtube channel bigclivedotcom. He's always buying cheap ebay electrical crap and taking it to bits to see just how bad (and occasionally potentially deadly) it actually is.
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Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
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(Perhaps a tin-foil facemask?)
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Thank you for getting the quote correct. I'm so sick of people quoting it as "The goggles! They do nothing!".
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Re: Painless vision loss (Score:2)
I remember reading or hearing from somewhere that lasers can be so powerful that the reflection/scattering from air molecules / dust will blind you?
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lasers can be so powerful that the reflection/scattering from air molecules / dust will blind you?
Well; for most lasers Class 3 or lower -- reflections are safe so long as they are diffuse off a matte surface and not specular reflection or the sort that would come off a glossy service. However, sure for high power Class 4 lasers... If you catch so much as a a diffuse reflection [wikipedia.org] of one off a surface: serious permanent damage occurs faster than it is possible to even blink -- Hell a diffuse reflectio
Re: Painless vision loss (Score:4, Interesting)
UV lasers are really dangerous. Cataracts will form with sufficient UV exposure and when you work with UV lasers you never know if you've been accidentally exposed. Those are the one type of laser we didn't want to work with.
As for Class IIIb/IV lasers, every real lasershow out there uses them. I performed and produced them for five years back in the late 80s to early 90's. From what I understand the lasers we used back then are toys compared to what they're using now.
Back then we used 4W for most screen work and 7W-35W for atmospheric beams. Giant water cooled glass tubes in metal frames with three phase water cooled power supplies. They absolutely sucked to deal with. Today's excimer and solid state lasers put out higher power, are air cooled, and plug into a wall outlet.
I don't think anything you can get your hands on for a reasonable amount of money is dangerous on diffuse surfaces. A SpectraPhysics 35W laser we used for one instillation melted the surface of the cinder block wall we tried using as a beam stop. If something like that is safe on diffuse surfaces I think something that can barely cut balsa wood is fine.
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So it wasn't you whose laser cut through the beam stop, the wall, the head of a bronze statue, and the billboard half a mile down the road. That's good to know.
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But, but, the US navy wants to mount lasers on warships with very, very reflective water. What they will blind any crew member exposed, when they fire it, wow that's like totally fucking stupid. Imagine an aircraft carrier with lasers and all that crew on deck servicing aircraft, blind within seconds of initiating conflict. Perhaps the US Navy can employ blind people to work on the decks of aircraft carriers, shite forgot about the air crews, what the fuck is the US Navy up to.
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You seem to be unclear on the shape of a water wave. Hint: it's not like those water wavy things you drew with crayon in kindergarten.
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Re:Painless vision loss (Score:4, Informative)
I worked with high powered lasers for years and never had any problems, but I'm not stupid enough to look into the beams.
I am stupid enough to burn myself on them numerous times however.
Best laser safety sign ever: https://i.etsystatic.com/13650... [etsystatic.com]
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Frickin lasears?
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"ALWAYS wear proper eye protection."
Sounds good, but recent reports show STDs at an all time high. If people can't be bothered to protect their junk, their eyes aren't going to get protected either.
Re: Painless vision loss (Score:2)
The impulse to expose your eyes to a laser are far less.
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This is exactly the issue. These devices should be used in a suitable enclosure only (none is provided or even suggested by the sellers, and if you need to work on it with the (not included) safety interlock bypassed you need laser safety glasses AT LEAST (are correct safety glasses for the laser type even suggested on the amazon page?).
I am fine with them being sold, but I am not fine with those sales being targeted at people who don't have any idea how lasers work or what they can do when things go wrong.
Safety First (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Safety First (Score:5, Funny)
That wasn’t a sign you carved with the laser cutter - it was the back of my hand. ... and I really, REALLY didn’t appreciate you trying to nail it up on the wall of your workshop.
Hmm... (Score:1, Troll)
Profit Uber Alles (Score:2)
Good to see that the mega-retailers are making it easy for me - I’m not having to rethink my low opinions of their business practices in the least!
It's a feature! (Score:1)
But I'll need to ask whether they're also radioactive, high-voltage biohazards that coat the floor and make it slippery [xkcd.com].
In related news ... (Score:4, Funny)
Dr nick any lasik eye surgery for only $129.95! (Score:2)
Dr nick any lasik eye surgery for only $129.95!
Safety has a high cost. (Score:4, Interesting)
For around $200 I can purchase an "unsafe" version along with some safety glasses ($150 for high end) and $3 for a box of bandages and feel happy with myself.
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Add in some plywood, a few minutes, and a cheap webcam in the plywood box so you can safely watch the process, and you're good to go. All for well under the cost of the 'recommended' device.
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And how much is your eyesight worth to you?
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FDA paperwork (Score:2)
If I promise not to eat it, can I still buy it?
Any useful tool is dangerous. Hedge Trim me baby. (Score:2)
Re:Any useful tool is dangerous. Hedge Trim me bab (Score:5, Informative)
Any useful tool is dangerous if used incorrectly.
I have one of these sub $300 laser cutters. Out of the box the thing was dangerous even if used correctly.
The risks were not stuff like "There isn't an interlock to stop me from opening the laser while running and sticking my had in the beam path." they were things like "The chassis isn't grounded" or "The window on the machine won't actually block the laser".
I haven't gotten around to making the system fail safe (it's a project for this winter), but it has at least reached a point where a failure should only trash the equipment and not the harm operator.
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Yes, the popular model in that price range has numerous design flaws, documented in detail at hobbyists’ sites that, if you read even passingly, should make you not think, "I can make this safe," but, "I need to bury this 10 feet deep in sand far away from my house and loved ones."
Fun and dangerous (Score:2)
But I repeat myself.
Good (Score:2)
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These are defective by design. No one's fun is being ruined because they can be operated safely and some people aren't.
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So are MacBook keyboards.
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Sweet deal - ouch! my eye! (Score:4, Interesting)
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You're not going to cut or engrave very much with 3W, maybe paper.
You need at least 50W to start cutting/burning through thin wood or engraving metal with chemical assistance, I'd suggest ~250-400W to start cutting or actually engraving through most metals.
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ok... so... (Score:2)
The machines are dangerous. Although they don't seem much more dangerous then cheap table .
I can't figure out why he keeps complaining about laser pointers, if you wanted to be malicious with a laser , why not just buy 'replacement parts' for your laser cutter and use them.
In other news... (Score:1)
Knives Sold on Amazon and Elseware Are Cheap, Fun -- And Dangerous
If you want to build your own do research, be safe (Score:4, Informative)
All laser engravers, even the Glowforge are potentially dangerous. So are CNC routers, Plasma cutters, and welders. Safety gear is always the most important thing. Whether it's a good welding helmet and gloves, or wrap-around IR safety glasses. I have welded for years but only recently learned that the radiation from welding that is most damaging to your eyes is IR. Occasionally I've had auto-darkening helmets not dim at the right time and got a flash. However the lens still blocks IR, so other than seeing spots for a bit, there's no lasting permanent damage.
I saw a great video introducing the subject of how to navigate the crazy world of cheap chinese Laser engraving gear and stay safe. I recommend it as a good place to start when investigating this field, which has potential to be very useful for any maker. https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
If you can afford it, the GlowForge is an excellent product, and is incredibly easy to use, and they have made safety a priority even to a fault. It's not without it's disadvantages. Chief among them is that it's entirely controlled via the cloud. No internet, no worky. On the plus side there's no software to install (works on Linux).
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I have welded for years but only recently learned that the radiation from welding that is most damaging to your eyes is IR.
I was always taught that the greatest short term damage potential is from IR (the eye really can't stand temperature rises, which is the effect of lasers, or high powered RF), but the greatest long term damage potential from welding was from UV which for people who weld a lot gives a time limited however cumulative effect.
i.e. IR causes permanent loss of vision in a short term. UV causes macular degeneration over time.
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Yeah you're right. But apparently long-term IR exposure is also quite bad for you. Incidentally that's why people who are in the sun a lot get cataracts. A welding mask will be opaque to both IR and UV, even if the auto darkening hasn't kicked in yet. AvE did some testing a while back. https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
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I have access to a Glowforge Pro, used it a bit and would not be comfortable basing a business on it. Glowforge is still a start-up and the cloud-only, proprietary model they use to operate their hardware is a non-starter for me. If they don't survive you're hardware might turn into a brick. If the equipment took g-code like a lot of the cheap laser systems do then I'd be comfortable.
Not intended as a review of their product, but I also dislike the fact that the Glowforge also only takes sheet goods. You ca
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I agree with your assessment of the glowforge and your remarks in general.
There are more industrial solutions if you want to make a business out of laser engraving and cutting. As for the Glowforge itself, there are folks working on connecting it to a standard CNC controller. It's just stepper motors under the hood.
The chinese unit that Teaching Tech reviewed recently looks appealing as a workable machine with some modification.
muddle (Score:2)
As with many attempts at communicating risk, laser cutter warnings are prone to becoming a harmful muddle endangering public safety. Like the California problem, where because everything sold there has a mandatory warning label on it people have learned to ignore warning labels. Real warnings are actually important because they tell you how not to kill or seriously injure yourself. Conditioning the public to ignore them, as does California, is harmful; There is no condition which can not be made worse
FDA? (Score:2)
Unless it's a surgical laser, why is the FDA involved? Are they wanting to regulate table saws and hand drills too? Where are we on the phase III trials for ceramic chef's knives?
What next, will they need a license to sell hair tonic to bald eagles in Omaha Nebraska?
Don't protect me please. (Score:5, Insightful)
Dangerous toys are fun, and I like to have a good time. I bought a $300 40 watt Co2 laser cutter from ebay (China) a few years ago. It's awesome. I had to take it apart and put it back together again before I was comfortable actually using it, but that was the idea going into it.
I had to add a safety-interlock to the door, cut out the false bottom, re-enforce the frame, add air assist, realign the gantry, replace ALL of the optics, improve fume extraction, and rewire some shoddy wiring. Most of this was quality of life improvements, but some if it was downright dangerous without reworking it. (grounded to a painted surface, tube arcing to the frame etc) I eventually replaced the tube with a good american one as well.
I would do it all again in a heartbeat. I've invested less than $1000 and have a killer laser cutting with a decent work area, and learned a lot about how Co2 laser work. The same machine would set me back 3-5k out of the box. If you understand what you're going into, do a little research, and are capable of being responsible for your own safety then these machines are great.
The American distributors simply import these cheap machines, retool them and sell them at x1000 markup.
Freedom can be dangerous, but that's the idea. If you're not up to the project, go ahead and buy yourself a Glowforge, or one of the upgraded American kits, but don't try and tell me what I'M allowed to buy and run because YOU'RE too scared or too stupid to be responsible for your own safety.
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What you did sounds cool; I've been interested in laser cutting for a while but haven't gotten any gear yet. (I can't make up my mind what to buy or how to start off, lol.)
However....
but don't try and tell me what I'M allowed to buy and run because YOU'RE too scared or too stupid to be responsible for your own safety.
It's not you or your safety that's the problem; you sound like you know what you're doing and wouldn't operate it in a hazardous manner.
It's to try and protect all the other people who don't have the skill, experience, and knowledge that you do. Or the common sense.
There's a shitload of idiots out there who would buy a genuinel
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"Freedom can be dangerous, but that's the idea": Sure, but these aren't being sold with anything like the information and insight a normal person with reasonable intelligence would require to make a judgment about the relative degree of risk. They are, by design, dangerous. They are sold sometimes in unusable, potentially dangerous or deadly form (electrocution, for instance).
The "freedom" part here isn't "dangerous things should be banned," but rather, "risks should be fully disclosed and stuff shouldn't b
Stufff is dangerous, film at 11 (Score:2)
Repeat after me: "Stufff is dangerous, cheap stuff is usually even more dangerous. "
The Real Danger (Score:1)
I think the real danger is that while knives and guns are obviously dangerous so you can avoid someone using them incorrectly, the laser can be used by someone not knowing what they're doing or not caring in the same room that you happen to be in and poof, you can't see any more. Proliferating these things around the country will, I suspect, end up with a lot more people suddenly blind that didn't have a clue they were in danger. Will the perpetrators of this sort of negligence even be charged, especiall
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I think the real danger is that while knives and guns are obviously dangerous so you can avoid someone using them incorrectly
Yes
the laser can be used by someone not knowing what they're doing or not caring in the same room that you happen to be in and poof, you can't see any more.
Lasers are also obviously dangerous. Stop selectively ignoring that fact.
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A cat toy is obviously dangerous? Personally I didn't realize that these lasers could blind someone from the reflection until today.
overblown rhetoric (Score:2)