Raspberry Pi 4 Featuring Faster CPU, Up To 4GB of RAM Launched (raspberrypi.org) 195
Raspberry Pi today introduced a new version of its popular line of single-board computer. The Raspberry Pi 4 Model B is the fastest Raspberry Pi ever, with the company promising "desktop performance comparable to entry-level x86 PC systems." The specifications are: A 1.5GHz quad-core 64-bit ARM Cortex-A72 CPU (~3x performance); 1GB, 2GB, or 4GB of LPDDR4 SDRAM; full-throughput Gigabit; Ethernet; dual-band 802.11ac wireless networking; Bluetooth 5.0; two USB 3.0 and two USB 2.0 ports; dual monitor support, at resolutions up to 4K;
VideoCore VI graphics, supporting OpenGL ES 3.x; 4Kp60 hardware decode of HEVC video; and complete compatibility with earlier Raspberry Pi products. It starts at $35.
Faster! (Score:5, Funny)
I just bought one of these, and it's so fast, it let me write First Post!
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Probably AMD Jaguar-based CPUs such as the Athlon 5150, or (up to) quad core Atoms like Bay Trail and later. (called Pentium and Celeron on desktop, e.g. Celeron J1800 or N3000)
Comparison to Intel is mostly trivia (Score:5, Insightful)
However the speed comparison of Intel vs ARM isn't really so relevant, its more interesting trivia. The actual relevant point regarding PCs is that we are long past the point where PCs have exceeded the performance requirement of many users. This currently manifests as a slowdown in PC sales because machines last much longer than they used to. Its more they "break" and less they get too slow these days. Give a machine a decent amount of RAM and having it last 7 years for many users would not be surprising. Gamers being a notable exception but with some GPU upgrades over 7 years perhaps doable for the less demanding games. However for people doing email, browsing, productivity apps, etc a PC can last a long time these days. I have a 9 year old build-your-own PC with a 3GHz Athlon dual core and 8GB of RAM running Windows 10. Its perfectly usable. The motherboard died last year and I replaced it, I upgraded nothing else. Same CPU, RAM, HD, etc. Compatible motherboards are no longer available, if it died this year it would have been scrapped. I got lucky with the timing.
The real question is has the RPi4 crossed this user performance threshold. In its larger memory configurations, it may have. How it compares to a low end Intel CPU is interesting but not really relevant with respect to RPi displacing PCs. Its how it compares to user needs.
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The big performance limiter on the Pi is the SD card interface. It's orders of magnitude slower than an SSD.
I have a laptop with an older Core i7 that can't be upgraded past 4GB (the mobile CPU doesn't support any more) and it's fine because the SSD is so fast. It's only SATA but it makes 4GB usable. CPU speed is rarely an issue.
If they could some high performance storage on a Pi or similar it could be a very usable desktop.
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According to this benchmark the USB 3 is actually quite decent on the Pi, at least in terms of throughput: https://www.raspberrypi.org/ma... [raspberrypi.org]
I must say I'm surprised. Unfortunately what I can't find is any indication of what the CPU load is like during that kind of heavy I/O.
But yeah, good point, with a USB SSD it might actually be pretty competitive as a general purpose desktop machine.
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I have not yet used a RPi4 (is in the mail...), but starting at the RPi3, you just need to boot from the SD once, flip a nvram bit, and you can boot off USB (and forget about, yes, the absolutely hideous MicroSD cards).
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The big performance limiter on the Pi is the SD card interface. It's orders of magnitude slower than an SSD.
As long as you choose a decent SD card, it can still give very acceptable levels of performance. Some SD cards are bad at random reads, let alone writes. I haven't looked at a recent benchmark but Samsung Evo+ 16GB and larger used to be substantially faster than pretty much anything else at random reads and writes. (including the smaller capacities of the same brand.) It may now very well be something else. I went from a fairly typical SanDisk card to one of those in my Pine64 and it made a kind of ridiculo
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I'm still using my grandfather's hammer. I replaced the handle twice and the head once.
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Even 7 years is doable for a demanding game, the best case would be the i7 3930K which is a 6 core / 12 thread with modern memory bandwidth and capacity. The least modern thing is that it has AVX instructions but not AVX2.
That 9 year old PC is on its third GPU. Its the only part that got upgraded. :-)
Well make a list of common uses then! (Score:2)
Like the things that people usually do.
Using common websites,
watching video, compressing files, editing documents, audio, images , video, serving common requests for the most common server daemons,
playing games (provided there is an optimized build for both), etc.
Hmm, I notice how web apps are basically the only demanding task other than games.
And only because of the batshit insanity that is the OS-on-top-of-an-OS called the HTML5 platform.
Win10 already running on RPi, not locked to Intel (Score:3)
Yes, Iâ(TM)m sure Microsoft is shaking in their boots! I heard Satya Nadella hasnâ(TM)t slept a wink this week.
"This is the core OS image that powers Windows IoT platform on Raspberry Pi 2 & 3. Windows 10 IoT Core is the smallest version of the Windows 10 editions that leverages the Windows 10 common core architecture. This edition enables building low-cost devices with fewer resources."
https://www.microsoft.com/en-u... [microsoft.com]
The RPi4 with more RAM may be able to run the consumer Win10 rather than the IoT Win10.
Microsoft has not been locked to Intel for a long time, basically since Win9x. WinNT has always been
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Don't forget Windows RT - Windows on ARM
Power consumption? (Score:2)
The official USB type-C power supply [raspberrypi.org] delivers 15.3W. Do you have any number of actual idle and active power consumption?
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Voltage is 5V. Intensity is 3 amps. That's 15 watts maximum power or nominal power.
But all computers consume lower power when load is idle or average. This is what determines how much you actually consume and pay in the bill. That was my question.
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s/Intensity/Current
Those little switching 5V power supplies have a very poor power factor (ratio of real power to apparent power). You're probably paying for 2x-3x the power. (0.5 to 0.33). If you can find something that stats 95% efficiency they might be referring to a power factor of 0.95, this is very good.
Less than 0.5 might sound terrible but some LED night lights are 0.33 to 0.12 so you pay about 3x-8x. That 0.5W LED night light is likely costing you as much as a 4W incandescent. Cheap LEDs may seem t
Re: Power consumption? (Score:5, Interesting)
1) In the EU (to pass CE) I think that the pf has to be very close to 1 by law.
2) Again, I'd be amazed if any significant fraction of (EU) domestic users pay for anything other than real power, so pf is irrelevant to them.
But tell me why I'm wrong...
Rgds
Damon
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1) In the EU (to pass CE) I think that the pf has to be very close to 1 by law.
No, as of 2013 EU reg there is no minimum for lamps less than 2W. And for 2W to 5W the minimum is a 0.4 power factor. (see Table 5, Annex III of 1194/2012)
I don't know why you assumed pf has to be close to 1. The EU tries to improve things with regulation, not make stupid or impossible demands. Even at the most strictest top end of power draw, it's only requiring a 90% efficiency. Which is decent but usually easily to exceed in a well designed device.
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OK, I'll check up on that, thanks. 0.9 is quite decent given that as you say an uncorrected device can be ~0.3, which caused a friend of mine some head-scratching:
http://www.earth.org.uk/note-o... [earth.org.uk]
But still point (2) still stands: are domestic customers charged for anything other than real power?
Rgds
Damon
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But still point (2) still stands: are domestic customers charged for anything other than real power?
A residential meter will read the real power. You pay for your neighbors' apparent power through "distribution" charges. The power company never eats the cost of these things. Industrial power gets billed for any power factor below 1.0. So no, I'll retract my earlier statement you likely don't pay more if you run a bunch of lower pf stuff. As least not directly.
The whole real versus apparent power thing has been an issue for a very long time. It's why large reactive (Q) loads like big industrial motors have
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Yep, industrial is very different.
Anyhow, thanks for the reminder on low-power lighting.
Damon
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From https://static.raspberrypi.org/files/product-briefs/USB-C-Product-Brief.pdf
Efficiency:
81% minimum (output current from 100%, 75%, 50%, 25%)
72% minimum at 10% load
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Very cool, they must have a power factor correction (PFC) chip in that supply.
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The idle, or average power consumption is 7.65 watts, plus or minus 7.65 watts.
Re:Power consumption? (Score:5, Informative)
The team that runs the www.raspberrypi.org (now running on a cluster of Pi 4 in one of their two data centers) mentioned that idle is now 3W and peak is around 7W:
"The Raspberry Pi 4 is out. It’s a quad core ARM A72 running at 1.5Ghz with 4GB of RAM and native 1Gbps ethernet. This means that according to our benchmarks (PHP 7.3 and WordPress) it’s about 2.5x the speed of the 3B+, thanks to the much faster core design and slight clock speed boost. The downside is that it uses more power. Idle power consumption is up slightly to about 3W, peak is now around 7W, up from 5W. It has some improved video features too and USB3."
Source: https://blog.mythic-beasts.com... [mythic-beasts.com]
While they don't mention it, I don't think it would include the total power consumption if you have additional USB devices attached to it which could drive it to 15W (5v and 3 amps for a total of 15W).
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Thanks! :)
4.2~4.4 W idle but connected, 7.6 W at full load (Score:2)
German c't magazine measured [heise.de] 4.4 W idle, but with USB keyboard, USB mouse and Gigabit Ethernet connected; 4.2 W with WiFi instead of GE, and 7.6 W under full load.
finally some RAM (Score:5, Informative)
The addition of more RAM was critical for many projects. About time. Too bad they didn't do it sooner, I could have avoided buying pine64.
Their video core is not the only publicly documented core though, that's a lie. It's not even fully documented! You still need a blob! Mali, on the other hand, has a fully OSS driver. There is also an OSS Tegra driver.
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Trust me, the Broadcom official documentation is just as terrible. Broadcom sees themselves as an turnkey ASIC provider - they have a chip for your need, and here's the software that goes with it. If you're lucky, you'll
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For 3x the price you can get a Beaglebone Blue
That right there is the problem. raspi is nigh-unbeatable as a value proposition. $40 for board and case (I'll come up with my own satisfactory power supply, thanks) is a fantastic deal for that much hardware, and even with 4GB it remains very reasonably priced. Or the zero [w] for those super-low-cost projects. If they can get rid of the last blobs, it'll be difficult to fault them on any level.
Physical interface limitation ; Opensource drivers (Score:5, Informative)
The addition of more RAM was critical for many projects. About time. Too bad they didn't do it sooner,
They wouldn't have been able to:
the previous SoCs only expose enough address lanes to access 1GiB max.
That SoC on the RPi4 is the first one to expose enough address lanes to be physically wired to 2GiB or 4GiB ram.
Their video core is not the only publicly documented core though, that's a lie. It's not even fully documented! You still need a blob! Mali, on the other hand, has a fully OSS driver.
Actually, nope. If you've been following Phoronix, you'd be noticing that Eric Anholt has been writing V3D [github.io].
According to the RPi Foundation blog post, they now consider this stack mature enough and will be using THAT instead of the blob for 3D on the RPi4.
So Video core is joining the likes of Lima, Panfrost, Freedreno and other such opensource reverse engineered drivers.
Also, in related news, AMD is in the process of licensing (again, if you count that time they sold Adreno to Qualcomm, back when it was still ATI) current Radeon cores to ARM chip makers (Samsung if memory serves correctly), so we could finally have an embed ARM SoC with a GPU whose driver is actually financed by the core's designing company (AMD has paid kernel driver developpers)
There is also an OSS Tegra driver.
...too bad that Nvidia isn't giving as much ressources for OSS *workstation GPU* drivers.
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...too bad that Nvidia isn't giving as much ressources for OSS *workstation GPU* drivers.
My understanding from discussions on this subject way back in the days of the Xbox and NV2* is that doing the deal to get their GPU in there required them to get into some NDA-in-perpetua with Microsoft that prevents them from simply releasing GEforce documentation, but Tegra is not similarly encumbered. Maybe someday we'll have desktop GPUs based on Tegra and not GEforce, whatever the hell that would actually mean, and then they can give us the full sources.
Avoid Intel, use Raspberry Pi for browsing? (Score:2)
Answering my own question: Website launch (Score:4, Informative)
"Question: Is the Raspberry Pi 4 any good?
"Answer: It's good enough to run its own launch website with tens of millions of visitors."
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Midori? Firefox?
Play mp4 in the browser?
Buy a used Intel laptop, put Linux on it and enjoy Midori.
Raspberry Pi 4, Model B: "It's a lot faster." (Score:4, Informative)
"How much faster is the new Raspberry Pi? It's a lot faster."
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The ARM Cortex-A72 processor was vulnerable to Cache Timing Side-Channel exploitations such as Spectre.
( see https://developer.arm.com/supp... [arm.com] )
The Rasberry PI 3 Model B uses the Cortex A53 in-order chips which are not affected because they lack the speculative execution required for this vulnerability.
However, any device is going to bring it's own potential vulnerabilities:
"A report published this week by the NASA Office of Inspector General reveals that in April 2018 hackers breached the agency's network
Re:Avoid Intel, use Raspberry Pi for browsing? (Score:5, Informative)
The ARM processor used in the Raspberry Pi does not have the vulnerabilities of the Intel processors. Would it make sense to use Raspberry Pi computers as the only way a network connects to the Internet?
Per TFA [raspberrypi.org], they went from Cortex-A7 which was immune to both MELTDOWN and Spectre to Cortex-A53 which was also immune to both, and now with this latest board on to Cortex-A72, which is an OoO core which is vulnerable to Spectre [wikipedia.org]! I am tempted to presume that there is some sort of mitigation patching done, but you know the old saying... "Trust, but verify."
If your primary concern is security, this new raspi is potentially less secure than the last one.
Internet connections available to a browser on Pi? (Score:2)
Would that minimize the chances of successful attacks on a network?
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If you'll have RPi 4, then you'll have both Meltdown and Spectre. If you have an older version, then you won't have those.
Like you seem to be understanding, just routing the data through the RPi is not helping at all (it's the opposite, you're adding one more device with different security vulnerabilities). You can of course do some more advanced things, like firewall and pi-hole, that will reduce at least some of the risks, but even this will not prevent the Meltdown, Spectre and Zombieload kind of vulnera
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If your primary concern is security, then why choose a $35 sbc designed for students?
Insecure but fast next to (but network-segregated from) secure but cheap is a reasonable solution to the problem of insecurity. The problem with the old Pi is not enough RAM. It's just painful for anything but the lightest browsing. It's cool for banking, but that's about it.
Re: Avoid Intel, use Raspberry Pi for browsing? (Score:1)
Out of Order execution is safe? (Score:2)
Grandparent comment: "This Pi 4 uses a new core that features out-of-order execution."
Parent comment: "Speculative Execution is not the same as Out of Order execution. Unless it does Speculative Execution it will not be vulnerable to similar bugs like SPECTRE and Meltdown."
I would like to know more.
It seems to me that information should have been at the beginning of any description of the new Raspberry PI 4.
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It's vulnerable to Spectre, but not MELTDOWN. Maybe there is mitigation. TFA doesn't say.
Protect against outside attacks? (Score:2)
Would what I suggested protect against outside attacks from the Internet, such as browser vulnerabilities?
It would be necessary that a network be protected against inside attacks, also, of course.
type-D (micro) HDMI connectors (Score:5, Insightful)
Not using a full size HDMI connector just added another dongle for most people and makes it less accessible.
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Just get a Micro HDMI to HDMI cable.
https://smile.amazon.com/Amazo... [amazon.com]
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I just bought a lightening adapter from apple.com for $10. Other adapters are very expensive but my point is; it depends...
In any case; why involve Apple in this thread? If you spend every chance brooding about a particular company instead of just putting them out of your mind maybe you're wasting energy.
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Sure, their adapters are not hundreds of dollars, but they do add up to well over the price of the device. Even ignoring speakers, monitors, mice, and keyboards, the $35 price has always been pretty misleading when you have to spend like $50 on power cables and other necessities to even get it to boot.
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This is a huge deal. The mini connector is jut not stable. I have one of these mini PCs with that connector, and it just does not get a stable connection, and it always looks like it is going to get ripped off.
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They could just buy a £4 ($5) micro HDMI cable [amazon.co.uk].
Just in time (Score:2)
my old dual core atom server just died,
Apache, ssh, calibre server and some security web cams were all I was doing with it.
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Yeah because the USB storage performance won't be a bottleneck...
Use a NAS for storage (Score:2)
Yeah because the USB storage performance won't be a bottleneck...
It may not, RPi based servers often use NAS. And with the upgraded ethernet its more practical.
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Yeah because the USB storage performance won't be a bottleneck...
USB3 is plenty for most people. And this raspi finally has non-garbage USB, allegedly.
decent for a small lampp server (Score:2)
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My current RPi2 is serving several sites, other primary services such as DNS, and is indeed also doing some monitoring over MODBUS.
http://www.earth.org.uk/note-o... [earth.org.uk]
I'm just embarking on an upgrade to RP3(B+) mainly to give me easy access to newer OS images that support HTTPS in Apache.
I think that I'm going to hold fire on the 4 since the idle consumption is creeping up (the 4 is around 3W idle it seems; I'm on 1W with the 2 and the planned upgrade to the 3 will already take me to 2W) above what I'm comfort
Video Codec (Score:2)
now featuring... (Score:3)
...better connectivity with NASA systems, curiously.
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Do Plex and Pi-hole play nice together (Score:2)
Anyone got both running on the same Pi?
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Plex has never played good with anything else. And ELEC has way way better decoding on the PI. Even though Plex uses your plex server to decode the videos, it still does not work with high res vids for some reason (at least it did not when I uninstalled it a few months ago).
This /. article... (Score:2)
... seems like a good argument in favor of limiting users to a certain (read: low) number of Anonymous Coward posts per time period (5-10/month) or enforcing a long time period before you can post anonymously again (24 or 48 hours between anonymous posts). If I could filter out the Anonymous Cowards, there'd be barely anything left to the comments section today.
So no more wall-wart (Score:2)
It now needs a powerbrick?
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The official power supply is still a wall-wart. The stated power requirement has gone up from 2.5A to 3A.
Do you still need a blob to boot the thing? (Score:2)
Do you still need a funky binary blob just to get the thing to boot?
And if people are trying to build open graphics drivers (for both the ARM side and the side running on the VideoCore stuff) then why has no-one tried to replace the boot blob?
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It's offtopic and multi-server is not currently relevant to Rust's core concurrency support.
Rust and similar have some more 'native' support for threads on a single multi-processor system.
While there are plenty of libraries/frameworks/applications that are multi-server, Rust is not particularly better or worse in and of itself.
So enthusiasm about building true multi-server things being expressed generically may be on topic, the post is trying to just talk randomly about Rust and force an incorrect connectio
Re: Sounds perfect for a Rust workstation! (Score:2, Interesting)
It's offtopic and multi-server is not currently relevant to Rust's core concurrency support.
What an utterly ignorant and ill-informed comment to make.
You just don't seem to understand that Rust's support for parallel computation is independent of the underlying hardware.
From a software point of view, a cluster can be considered to be very much like a SMP host or a single multi-core CPU. There are multiple execution units, potentially using shared or non-shared memory.
The software doesn't care if it's running on a non-threaded single core CPU or a multi-treaded single core CPU or a non-threaded mul
Re:chipsets and specifications ? (Score:5, Informative)
Say it with me but slowly. The Raspberry Pi was developed to be low in cost for students to learn with. It was never developed as an open platform, it was never engineered to be fast. The bottom line is cost. If you need something better then buy something better.
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Being open was one of the original design goals.
Back in the 80s the BBC Model B was fairly open. It came with extensive documentation. Can't remember if schematics were included but they were certainly available. Almost all the parts were off-the-shelf chips with readily available datasheets anyway.
As such it was great for hacking and building your own add-ons for. They wanted the Pi to be the same.
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Schematics were available and I think that I still have mine!
Rgds
Damon
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The schematics were for hardware hackers and developers. One of my friends made a variety of hardware mods to his A500, including his own expansion slot (little more than two of the right cardedge connector welded back to back, actually.) And then there's the various accelerators that were developed by users.
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Can't remember if schematics were included
They weren't, but it came with a LOT of documentation.
Re:chipsets and specifications ? (Score:5, Informative)
Long-term availability (Score:2)
the only guarantee is that they will work in Linux
...and that they will be available for a long period of time.
With the exception of pre-1.2 RPi2s (post-1.2 had to be switched to the same SoC as RPi3/3+/3A due to shortages in availability), RPi foundation tries to make sure that the devices remain supported and in production for a long period of time (enabling industrial usage is one of the reason they cite).
But yes, ALWAYS HAVING IT FOR 35$, NO MATTER WHAT is another of their main selling points. The 1GiB RPI4 is planned to cost the same as the 1GiB RPI3+
Re:chipsets and specifications ? (Score:4, Informative)
Spec here: https://www.raspberrypi.org/pr... [raspberrypi.org]
They don't mention the wifi chipset, seems like an oversight. Probably the same as the Pi 3, a BCM43438.
The lack of an antenna socket is mainly due to cost and the difficulty of adding one in a way that doesn't degrade performance. The on-board antenna is highly desirable so there would need to be some way to switch to maintain proper layout and RF properties. Also RF sockets are either expensive (like an FMA) or not very durable (like a u.FL, rated for 3 insertion/removal cycles).
No HDMI dongle required, it's a standard Micro HDMI port. Passive cable only.
Boot ROM is minimal, which means less chance of bugs and vulnerabilities. If you want PXE you can install a minimal PXE bootloader on SD card.
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They don't mention the wifi chipset, seems like an oversight. Probably the same as the Pi 3, a BCM43438.
The lack of an antenna socket is mainly due to cost and the difficulty of adding one in a way that doesn't degrade performance. The on-board antenna is highly desirable so there would need to be some way to switch to maintain proper layout and RF properties.
Normally that's done by using a wifi chip which can connect to multiple antennas. Sadly, the BCM43438 can only connect to one, if my quick skim of google results is any indication.
Also RF sockets are either expensive (like an FMA) or not very durable (like a u.FL, rated for 3 insertion/removal cycles).
You're off by a factor of ten there [farnell.com].
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Because 30 insertion/removal cycles over the lifetime of the device is SO much better. The point is: it's made to be connected to once and then left that way.
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The boot ROM might be minimal, but unlike the previous Raspberry Pi models this boots using a firmware in SPI flash [raspberrypi.org] that should supposedly get an update with PXE and USB boot soon.
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This is actually GREAT news, as it will make producing bootable images much easier and much less model-specific.
Popularity (Score:2)
No HDMI dongle required, it's a standard Micro HDMI port. Passive cable only.
That's the only part which botters me.
It seems to me that micro-HDMI where never that much popular.
(Only have an old Microvision scanning-laser micro-beamer using that standard).
The larger mini-HDMI, I've seen on some photo-cameras, but as smaller form factors became desirable, most companies seem to have switched to MHL instead (having dual use USB2.0 and HDMI on the same physical connector) and eventually migrated to USB-C for the "very compact video connectors" category.
And up until now, the RPi seem to
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"what is the Wifi chipset ?"
Broadcom BCM2711
"what is the bluetooth chipset ?"
Broadcom BCM2711
"Why is there still not the option to add an external Antenna for the Wifi ?"
Because it is unnecessary
"what was the design decision behind not using USB C for the display adapter if everyone is going to have to use HDMI dongles anyway ?"
False premise. Dongles are not required. Simply use a cable with a Micro HDMI on one end and the connector of your choice on the other end (HDMI, DVI, DP, etc). The design decision w
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https://www.raspberrypi.org/do... [raspberrypi.org] ... is a good start and answered my questions.
Rgds
Damon
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This is from the pi forum. It answered most of my questions:
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/file... [shopify.com]
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"cant run Word", 'tis a feature, not a bug.
Available (Score:2)
but 2 hdmi connectors? 2? what the actual f*ck?
The SoC used happens to have dual HDMI output. Makes sense to have it exposed for people interested in dual screen (or wanting to toy around with stereo output or whatever).
Though I would have preferred a full sized HDMI, even if it meant only pads for the second one.
Regarding NVMe/PCIe/etc. that is NOT available. The only PCIe connection that the SoC has is used by the RPI's ports. (but on the up site, you finally got gigabit network working at full speed now that it is connected over a PCIe link instead
RGMII vs PCIe (Score:2)
It's connected via RGMII, {...} I'll be very interested to see what reviewers can ferret out about this.
My bad, when I first skimmed the blog post I though the Gigabit network was also using the PCIe link. Apparently it's only the USB3.0 ports.
Well, looking forward to see what Phoronix will find about the speed.
Re: competing with intel (Score:1)
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MPEG2/VC1 can be done in software on that machine - the hardware blocks do not exist on the die so keys are not useful