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Power United Kingdom

Should the UK Re-Open An Old, Cracked Nuclear Reactor? (mirror.co.uk) 264

"Nuclear experts have warned against re-opening a 43-year-old Scottish nuclear reactor riddled with cracks over fears of a meltdown," writes the Daily Mirror.

An anonymous reader quotes their report: Hunterston B nuclear power plant was shut down last year after it was found that Reactor 3 had almost 400 cracks in it -- exceeding the operational limit. EDF, which own the plant in Ardrossan, Ayrshire, are pushing to return the reactor to service at the end of June and July and want to extend the operational limit of crack allowed from 350 to 700. However, the plans to reopen the plant have sparked fears it could lead to a nuclear meltdown similar to the 1986 Chernoybl disaster.

Experts have warned that in the very worst case the hot graphite core could become exposed to air and ignite leading to radioactive contamination and evacuation of a large area of Scotland's central belt -- including Glasgow and Edinburgh. According to Dr Ian Fairlie, an independent consultant on radioactivity in the environment, and Dr David Toke, Reader in Energy Policy at the University of Aberdeen, the two reactors definitely should not be restarted...

The plant, which is more than 40 years old, can generate enough electricity to power more than 1.7 million homes, and is one of Britain's eight nuclear plants which provide around 20 percent of the country's electricity.

Nuclear expert Professor Neil Hyat reminds The Sun that the reactor will be shut down by 2030 -- and "possibly earlier."
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Should the UK Re-Open An Old, Cracked Nuclear Reactor?

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  • Yes (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 08, 2019 @12:38PM (#58731178)

    Chernobyl was excellent. I can think of only one way to create another compelling HBO series. It must be reopened.

    • Re:Yes (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Z00L00K ( 682162 ) on Saturday June 08, 2019 @12:52PM (#58731260) Homepage Journal

      This decision to open the reactor again must come from the "What Could Possibly Go Wrong" department!

    • SInce Scotland will apply to join the EU, the UK won't have to deal with the problem, it'll be in a different country
      "Eight years involved with the nuclear industry have taught me that when nothing can possible go wrong and every avenue has been covered, then is the time to buy a house on the next continent."
      — Terry Prachett

      A day without Fusion is like a day without sunshine, but a good day at work is not better than a bad day fission.

      • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 ) on Saturday June 08, 2019 @02:43PM (#58731772) Homepage Journal

        If Soctland becomes independent the UK's nuclear problem with be the nuclear subs. Currently they are stationed in Scotland but will have to move south, and no-where wants them.

        • Currently they are stationed in Scotland but will have to move south, and no-where wants them.

          It's not just a question of no one wants them, they also need a deep water port which provides quick access for submerged subs to useful bits of the sea. There aren't a lot of options.

          • Couldn't we rent a berth in a US port? I'm sure Donald will make us a good deal. Y'know, special relationship and all that.

        • by AHuxley ( 892839 )
          Re "and no-where wants them"
          Should Scotland become independent then the UK will have to look after its US nuclear tech.
          The US will have the final say over what happens to the UK and its nuclear mil tech.
          All sites will clean and returned to an independent Scotland for Scotland to use in any way it wants.
          The UK stays a nuclear power.
          Where the US nuclear tech is moved to in the UK is something for the US and UK to work out.
      • UK won't have to deal with the problem, it'll be in a different country

        Much like how radiation from Chernobyl remained strictly a CCCP problem. [wikipedia.org]

        But the real question is how long will it take the Brits... sorry... The Englanders to fund and film their own version of events?
        One where it was all a Franco-Belgian-Germanic conspiracy [bbc.com] to devalue the (now English) Pound.
        With a little help from M. Bison. [youtube.com]
        Of course.

      • by jwhyche ( 6192 )

        First of all God Bless Scotland!

        SInce Scotland will apply to join the EU

        Damn if that isn't the funnest thing I've read all day. Actually gave me a laugh out loud moment. Scotland has been trying to break free of the UK for centuries. If anyone deserves their own free and independent country it's the Scots.

        IF the Scots ever get free no way in hell they are going to join that failed cluster fuck called the EU. The Scots have long for a independent Scotland for centuries, they would be fools to get that and just sign it away again. But bein

        • You do not seem to aware of Scottish politics in any way.

          Support for the EU is much higher than support for independence (as shown in the last two referendums).

          • by jwhyche ( 6192 )

            Support for Scotland joining the EU is way over blown. Realistically, it is none existent. Those that want to join the EU are the same ones that didn't want the UK to leave the EU. If you run a poll, not that they matter, with a independent Scotland of the UK then support drops to almost nothing, single digits anyway.

            So no, it is very doubtful that Scotland will join the EU if it gets it independence from the UK.

    • the simpsons needs more Nuclear stuff to use for the next 20 years

    • You didn't notice this recent trend of remaking sucessful foreign TV series for local audience [wikipedia.org]? This will be a blast!
    • Yeh we're planning a live reenactment of the Chernobyl series in real-time,

      Most Americans think Russians have Scottish accents anyway... :D

    • I am pro-nuclear power. But these reactors are being operated way beyond their design limit.
      There are better and safer designs available today. This plant should be replaced.

  • Not too surprising (Score:5, Interesting)

    by pablo_max ( 626328 ) on Saturday June 08, 2019 @12:42PM (#58731198)

    It should not be too surprising what man will do for a bit of coin.
    Willing to throw the dice with the most populated areas in your entire country just to make more money.

    That my friends is why all things cannot be left to the "free market" to decide. We'd all be dead otherwise.

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 ) on Saturday June 08, 2019 @01:03PM (#58731294) Homepage Journal

      EDF are desperate. The French are cutting off their subsidies, their reactor building projects around Europe are all over budge and behind schedule, and they are only surviving on "too big to fail" government life support.

      Contaminating large parts of Scotland is the least of their worries right now. They need to get that earner back up and running, and in a way that doesn't cost them more than a bit of paperwork.

    • by lobiusmoop ( 305328 ) on Saturday June 08, 2019 @01:16PM (#58731366) Homepage

      This is true. The politicians in London don't seem to care too much about the Scottish; All the nuclear weapons for the UK get parked up at Faslane Naval Base, 10 miles out from Glasgow, the most populous city in Scotland.

      • The politicians in London don't seem to care too much about the Scottish;

        Then tell me, how come English politicians can't vote on matters that only affect Scotland but Scottish politicians can and do vote on matters that affect only England. Mostly when I hear people whinging about London it's really that underneath they feel that Londoners should have less representation per person because they all live a bit too close together so they don't really count as whole people.

        The London metropolitan area is abou

        • I suspect around 90% of both Scottish MPs and MSPs oppose Brexit, yet it is being foisted on Scotland anyway.

          • I suspect around 90% of both Scottish MPs and MSPs oppose Brexit, yet it is being foisted on Scotland anyway.

            By now more than 50% of the population oppose Brexit too, yet it's being foisted on all of us. Also London voted about the same proportions as Scotland to stay.

        • Scottish MPs can't vote on England only laws, EVEL applies to them at the speakers decision
          • Scottish MPs can't vote on England only laws, EVEL applies to them at the speakers decision

            Yes true that is the case now, I completely forgot. Tuition fees for universities however for English students (not Scottish) was swung by Scottish MPs.

    • by cb88 ( 1410145 )
      It isn't the free market ... its lack of repercussions across the board and "too big to fail" corps.
  • by fahrbot-bot ( 874524 ) on Saturday June 08, 2019 @12:47PM (#58731234)

    Should the UK Re-Open An Old, Cracked Nuclear Reactor?

    Cracked [cracked.com] has a nuclear reactor?

    • Should the UK Re-Open An Old, Cracked Nuclear Reactor?

      No, my grandparents on my mother's side were fresh of the boat from Scotland . . . Aberdeen and Dundee. My great-great aunt used to send me comics from there . . . "Oor Wullie" and "The Broons".

      You would not want these folks fiddling around with nuclear reactors.

    • Cracked has a nuclear reactor?

      5 reasons to keep this reactor running that you won't believe!

  • by Nkwe ( 604125 ) on Saturday June 08, 2019 @12:57PM (#58731278)
    I am sure that the great minds here at Slashdot are the best resource to answer this question authoritatively.
    • Perfect location for a new amusement park, Nessie World.

      Light it up!

      • Maybe they think that if they can recreate the conditions that awoke Godzilla, the question of whether Nessie exists can finally be answered. Then they can build the theme park.

    • by MrL0G1C ( 867445 )

      Especially since the summary has linked a couple of the world's finest newspapers for the Slashdot crowd to fully appraise themselves of the situation in a detailed and unbiased manner.

  • It really applies here.
  • by Chas ( 5144 ) on Saturday June 08, 2019 @01:07PM (#58731316) Homepage Journal

    1) The plant has been closed
    2) It's been closed due to structural reasons.
    3) The plant is 43 years old. Meaning the tech on it is 50-60 years old.

    Simply redefining the structural parameters on an obsolete reactor that's been sitting idle and turning it back on seems like not just asking, but begging, upon bended knee, for trouble.

    • by Grog6 ( 85859 )

      Agreed; Graphite reactors are Very old Tech.

      Wigner Energy and Wigner Growth are two problems no modern reactors have.

      The designs were obsolete in the 50's, even tho they kept being built.

      But they're great for making plutonium, which is probably one reason for bringing it back online.

      • by Chas ( 5144 )

        If you wanna make Plutonium, go with LFTR and simply scavenge it from the byproducts.

        • by sfcat ( 872532 )

          If you wanna make Plutonium, go with LFTR and simply scavenge it from the byproducts.

          The T in LFTR stands for Thorium. LFTRs don't make much if any Pu. They don't have U-238 in them by default (you could add it but its not there by necessity). They consume Pu if you use weapons grade Pu to kickstart the reactor but that's only one of many ways to kickstart a breeder. There are many reactors that are good at making Pu, the LFTR (or anything Thorium specific) isn't among them.

        • by AHuxley ( 892839 )
          That depends on who is watching and how much "mil" plutonium a nation needs to divert.
  • by bobbied ( 2522392 ) on Saturday June 08, 2019 @01:08PM (#58731332)

    Come on. Chernoybl was an unsafe reactor design and what made it so bad was that the thing literally disassembled itself due to the design and crazy stupid operator mistakes. THEN the whole thing caught fire, nuclear core and all, because it was made from flammable materials and couldn't be put out for days, killing many of the fire crew from radiation exposure. We are talking about a light water reactor, where the core isn't going to explode and catch fire, where meltdowns will take days, not seconds and the worst possible accident is much less dangerous and much less likely than Chernoybl's ever was.

    IMHO this article is blowing the risk out of reason and is invoking the name of the worst nuclear accident in history in an effort to sway public opinion and that has me suspecting they might not be interested in any rational discussion here. They just are agin' it, no reasoned argument, no facts are going to move them.

    IDK if this idea is a good one or not, but when some group starts to demagogue the issue with the likes of Chernoybl, I'm going to dismiss what they say as being about fear, not reality.

    • so an China syndrome???

    • Chernoybl was an unsafe reactor design and what made it so bad was that the thing literally disassembled itself due to the design and crazy stupid operator mistakes. THEN the whole thing caught fire, nuclear core and all, because it was made from flammable materials and couldn't be put out for days, killing many of the fire crew from radiation exposure.

      We are talking about a light water reactor, where the core isn't going to explode and catch fire...

      From the summary:

      Experts have warned that in the very worst case the hot graphite core could become exposed to air and ignite leading to radioactive contamination and evacuation of a large area of Scotland's central belt -- including Glasgow and Edinburgh

    • Come on. Chernoybl was an unsafe reactor design and what made it so bad was that the thing literally disassembled itself due to the design and crazy stupid operator mistakes.

      Minus the stupid human element, Chernobyl might be merrily generating power today. But people have a tendency to bitch things up.

      • Minus the stupid human element, Chernobyl might be merrily generating power today.

        That is extremely unlikely.

        • That is extremely unlikely.

          Maybe, but it happens to be true:

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

          apparently 10 RBMks are still operational though they have been modified a bit since 1986.

        • Minus the stupid human element, Chernobyl might be merrily generating power today.

          That is extremely unlikely.

          The RBMK reactor is sensitive, but with proper operation, and not pulling stupid experiments, overriding safeties, and ordering employees to do things they knew were suicidal to the reactor, yeah, it could be kept running just fine.

          This isn't to be saying that we should ever build any more of them. It's saying that a well trained force and non-idiot managers, that it couldn't be kept running. At least to me, it's verification of my hypothesis that most if not all reactor incidents are directly tied to hu

    • by rl117 ( 110595 )

      It isn't a light water reactor. Both Hunterston B and Torness are AGRs (advanced gas reactors), which are a graphite-moderated, CO2-cooled design. It's safer in several ways than an LWR; it can passively cool through convection, for example, and it has a lower power density. However, if the blocks crack, and end up shifting around, that could be rather bad. If it blocks the control rods, or restricts the airflow in the fuel channels, it could cause problems. The cracking is a known phenomenon; one of m

  • I'm not a nuclear engineer so I was surprised to hear that the allowable number of cracks was not "zero".

    Given that the limit is not "zero" or "one", wouldn't the location of cracks relative to each other also be a critical (no pun intended) factor?

    • The same is true in bridges and things. Some cracks are expected. Each very small crack reduces the strength by some amount. The number is never zero, even when the concrete first dries there are some cracks.

  • Instead of putting band-aids on a creaky old reactor and risking disaster to squeeze a few more years of risky life out of it, why not just leave the old reactor mothballed, build a brand new reactor right next to it, and use the plant for another 40-60 years?

    It's not like the 2030 closure was holy writ dictated by some divine power... it was based on the assumption that the old reactor wouldn't be usable after that date. Build a brand new reactor, and the entire reason for closing the plant in 2030 goes aw

    • Put another way, does it make more sense to spend $500 million to rehab an old reactor and squeeze another 5-6 years of use out of it, while risking a horrific disaster near Scotland's two largest cities... or to spend $2-3 billion to build a new reactor next to the old one that's better and safer than the old one in every meaningful way, and good for at least 40-60 years of service?

      Humans in their wisdom, are just planning on doubling the number of allowable cracks. Much financially smart. Saves money. My guess is the limits will be increased until the reactor is exposed to air, and then the fun begins.

    • Yeh, they looked into that when "Hunterson A" was shutdown.
      But having an American Nuclear Sub base a few miles further up the coast, they idea was quickly shutdown for some reason.

      Think their was not the "commercial need" at the time. (Chernobyl took the wind out of the "More Nuclear near Mass Center's of population" movement rather quickly, and Fukushima was the nail on the coffin for another reactor house.)

    • by amorsen ( 7485 )

      You are a factor of four off in estimated construction cost.

      Hinkley Point C is estimated somewhere around £19 billion and £21 billion at this point. However, as the only work done so far AFAIK is the pouring of the concrete platform that it will be built on, there is of course a chance that the cost estimates are wildly pessimistic and the whole thing will come in at a quarter of the price. And a tiny risk that it might end up more expensive than expected. On the upside you get 2 reactors for th

    • by AHuxley ( 892839 )
      Balance of payments. The ground under the old reactor? Passed back in decades before new design tech was in use.
      Now a real deep 3D study of the ground would have to be done.
      Who gets to design and bring in a turn key reactor for the UK. Not many nations have the skills.
      France. Japan. Russia. Contractors around the EU. The USA. China. The UK wants to try on its own project?
      Who to give billions and more billions in money? A project that will change the UK budget for many years.
      Each nation wi
  • you can patch those cracks with drywall mud, or plaster, then it should be good to go
  • by Z80a ( 971949 )

    Just make smaller reactors, so when a disaster happen, it's not enough to kill people.

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • I am a fan of Nuclear power, but these older plants have lots of issues from which we have learned from. IOW, NEW 4th gen SMRs and Thorium plants make GREAT sense. Keeping plants going that do not have safety issues also makes sense. That is why some plants have been extended to 60-70 years. But a plant with 400+ cracks and nuclear engineers saying that it should not be extended, is a good reason to keep it down.
    • Those two are NOT engineers, nor even experts on reactors. Toke is a fucking political scientists. And Fairlie is a Radiation BIOLOGISTS

      So, the question becomes, what do REAL engineers say? And what about the company that built them? What do they say?

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