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Power Cellphones Technology

Samsung's New Chips Support 100W USB-C Fast Charging (bgr.com) 96

Posted by BeauHD from the next-gen-charging dept.
Samsung on Tuesday announced the launch of two new chips that it says will support secure, fast-charging USB-C power delivery controllers. "One of them, the SE8A, is what the company calls the industry's first solution that combines a power delivery controller and Secure Element in a single chip, offering new protections like security key storage," reports BGR. "Another result of the development of these new power delivery controllers is that Samsung's power chargers will now be able to support up to a 100W capacity: A 10x improvement over the 10W of a general smartphone charger." From the report: Samsung said the MM101 supports a symmetric encryption algorithm called the Advanced Encryption Standard that enables product authentication and includes moisture sensing capabilities to ensure safer charging conditions. The SE8A supports USB Type-C Authentication, the certificate-based authentication program for USB-C chargers and devices. "With enhanced security," Samsung explained in the announcement, "the SE8A opens possibilities for new kinds of content and services that may be exclusive to a certain brand, location or event."

Today's announcement is also significant because Samsung says the new power delivery controllers meet the most recent USB specs for fast-charging which addresses things like compatibility and efficiency challenges across mobile devices and other electronics. Those challenges can have effects like causing a device to, for example, charge slower than usual in addition to compromising the battery's life cycle.
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Samsung's New Chips Support 100W USB-C Fast Charging More

Samsung's New Chips Support 100W USB-C Fast Charging

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  • Oh yeah (Score:5, Funny)

    by ArchieBunker ( 132337 ) on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @08:32PM (#58669794)

    Samsung and high capacity batteries? What could possibly go wrong?

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by e3m4n ( 947977 )

      so 20A is suddenly now safe for lithium-ion???

      5v x 1A = 5w chargers

      then we started getting 2.1A and 2.4A chargers hitting the 10.5w and 12w realm. But 20A really?

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

        I wonder if the charging cable looks like an indoor/outdoor extension cord?

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by e3m4n ( 947977 )

          well considering that to run a 20A AC outlet you need the yellow shielded wiring (12AWG) instead of the white (14 AWG), I would imagine this cable would be pretty heavy duty even if its not 110v. Its the amps that burn up the conductor. 1A is technically enough to kill. Will there be some sort of warning about kids putting this 100w usb-c connector in their mouth while connected to a power supply?

          • 10 microamperes is enough to kill.

          • Will there be some sort of warning about kids putting this 100w usb-c connector in their mouth while connected to a power supply?

            While in theory, the 5A@20V at which this charger will operate could be carrier by the lining inside the mouth (tongue, etc.) and could cause burns, it will not in theory be deadly either: the electricity will only travel between its point of entry and its point of exit and 20V is not enough to break the skin's resistance barrier and thus the 5A would theoretically only travel between the + and - terminals of the cable, thus theoretically only causing a *local* burn and not going through the body to the flo

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by e3m4n ( 947977 )

              Didnt realize the wall charger was going to require negotiation. I assumed it was just going to blast 100w on contact. Doesnt the gold plated contact terminals on the connectors seem a bit frail for 100w? Seems like that would be an unintended fusable link.

              • Didnt realize the wall charger was going to require negotiation. I assumed it was just going to blast 100w on contact.

                It's always 5V on contact, to guarantee backward compatibility all the way back to USB 1. (So you don't fry your old iPod or PalmOS PDA when plugging it into a modern >45W laptop charge).

                The two current most widespread standard are:

                - QuickCharge 2.0 and up [wikipedia.org] - which mostly uses the data pins, so it can even work with plain old micro-USB connectors (but also works over USB-C connectors), but has the draw back of blocking the data pins, so in theory it's charge only, you can't fast-charge and communicate wit

      • so 20A is suddenly now safe for lithium-ion???

        100W is enough for a fairly serious laptop to run and charge at the same time. If they could also put a USB3 GigE interface in the charger it'd be dandy.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by jrumney ( 197329 )
        USB PD 3.0 specifies 20V for >45W charging.

      • It's 20v, not 5v. So 5 amp.

      • 5V@20A = Oversimplification (Score:4, Informative)

        by DrYak ( 748999 ) on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @05:36AM (#58671062) Homepage

        so 20A is suddenly now safe for lithium-ion???

        actually YES, for any battery of more than 20'000 mAh (ideally 40'000 mAh) the expected peak charging current is 20A.

        For the detail, a maximum charge rate for batteries is usually describe as factrion or multiples of "C" - the fraction of the total capacity that should be charged maximum during an hour. for most lithium chemistry, that's usually between 0.5C and 1C [batteryuniversity.com] - i.e.: at peaking charging, a battery can take somewhere the equivalent of half its charge and its whole charge per hour.
        (That's also why a lithium battey of a given chemistry WILL ALWAYS CHARGE at the same speed, no matter the size. Larger battery take the same time to charge, you can just put more into them. You can charge them for less time if you can do with less charge - a half charge on a giant battery might give you enough energy for your needs. And will also cause less ageing, see Tesla's battery management).

        NOTE: DO NOT attempt to straight push 1C into a lithium battery mindlessly, you'll eventually damage it and cause explosion. 0.5C to 1C is only during PEAK charging. Eventually, you reach max voltage, at which point YOU SHOULD NOT EXCEED that voltage, and the charging current will eventually go down as the battery voltage and the charging voltage get closer.
        (Also, temperature is another thing needing monitoring and one would need to slow down or pause the charging to avoid overheat).
        BMS is a thing, you know.

        5v x 1A = 5w chargers
        then we started getting 2.1A and 2.4A chargers hitting the 10.5w and 12w realm. But 20A really?

        As pointed by others, multiple standard (such as the more recent versions of QuickCharge, or USB-PD) use higher voltage to push more Watts without exceeding the max current allowed by the cable.
        Most modern phone are able to request 9v when plugged into a compatible QuickCharge or USB-C PD charger.
        Some accessories can request more (e.g.: huge bluetooth speaker can usually charge at 12v when possible).
        USB-C powered laptop could even use higher voltages (up to 20V), just like regular old-school (ie.g.: barrel) charging cables.

        Though as mentioned by some, regular USB-C cables are rated for 3A max. Only some special cables are certified for 5A (and they use a special handshake to announce themselves as certified to carry 5A), so it won't work with the first USB-C cable you grab.

      • Errr yes. 20A has always been "safe" for Lithium-ion. The only question is duration.

      • So 20A running through my phone's power control module is suddenly safe for, well, anything? Conductor size? Resistance heating?

        I dunno. Seems like a lot of current to put inside there, even if it only has to traverse maybe a centimeter. What could go wrong that would not involve smoke and flame?

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by e3m4n ( 947977 )

          well this video should make me feel a lot better.... not

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

          it seems like 20V 5A spec of usb 3.1 still exceeds the recommendation of lithium. They need to get that solid-state lithium batter that was discussed on /. going asap.

      • so 20A is suddenly now safe for lithium-ion???

        Yes, but they won't do that because they don't have to charge at 5V. High performance batteries can discharge at 60C and charge at 15, which for a 5000mAh battery would be a whopping 70A. Even derating a bunch for longevity means that 20A wouldn't be outrageous.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by e3m4n ( 947977 )

          for lithium it definitely is...

          watch this video... they said that more than 10v and 2a is pushing your luck

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

          some other people pointed out that its 20V and 5A for usb 3.1 however this video seems to indicate that this is really pushing the envelope here. They really need to roll out that solid state Lithium batter we discussed on /.
          https://hardware.slashdot.org/... [slashdot.org]

    • Samsung and high capacity batteries? What could possibly go wrong?

      Nothing. Everybody knows that Samsung is a company on fire, that comes up with the most explosive products. This will probably be one of them. Credit where it is due.

  • Secure? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by viperidaenz ( 2515578 ) on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @08:34PM (#58669800)

    So this is like a "we want to put on a universal connector, like USB-C, but also want to force you in to buying proprietary chargers"

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      So this is like a "we want to put on a universal connector, like USB-C, but also want to force you in to buying proprietary chargers"

      I glanced at the article, but it wasn't much longer. Either way USB is still 5V afaik. 100W/5V = 20A. At that current level heating that causes a fire is a real risk, though if your circuitry monitors itself you could presumably be okay. Basically your connector would include two more skinny wires for sense, to make sure there is not an unacceptable voltage drop.

      Either way, I'm doubting USB is going to be ever sourcing 20A @ 5V. Maybe you could auto-negotiate up to a higher voltage, such as say 28V whi

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by dgatwood ( 11270 )

        Either way, I'm doubting USB is going to be ever sourcing 20A @ 5V.

        It wouldn't. No USB cables go over 5A. This is doing 5A @ 20V, much like the MacBook Pro, except 5A instead of ~4.3A.

      • Either way USB is still 5V afaik. 100W/5V = 20A.

        It's 20V maximum at the moment, so 5A. Still a lot for a skinny cable but not crazy lots.

        At that current level heating that causes a fire is a real risk,

        Doesn't matter either way: 100W is enough to cause a fire pretty much whatever the combo. FWIW, my luggable has a 135W PSU (20V, 7A) through a not especially huge cable.

        Maybe you could auto-negotiate up to a higher voltage, such as say 28V which is used in aircraft. The problem is you then have to provide th

    • So this is like a "we want to put on a universal connector, like USB-C, but also want to force you in to buying proprietary chargers"

      I want a USB-C charger for my Tesla. 100W will take for ever .

      • It'll only take 6 weeks to charge.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Agripa ( 139780 )

        I want a USB-C charger for my Tesla. 100W will take for ever .

        That is why they include a Beowulf cluster of charging ports so multiple USB-C cables can be used at the same time.

    • Nah, "secure" in this context it's not just something to prevent you from using other chargers (in this respect actually USB-PD works well, generally speaking) it contains actual keys and would work like YubiKey to unlock things when you're at home or in the office (of course, if you travel with the laptop and the charger and they both get stolen that's another story...). Or provide DRM content at specific locations, that would be useful ... NOT!

      Samsung explained in the announcement, "the SE8A opens possibi

    • So this is like a "we want to put on a universal connector, like USB-C, but also want to force you in to buying proprietary chargers"

      I don't think it has anything to do with that, and I think this is actually a pretty brilliant idea. Let me explain why. The TL;DR is that this isn't about providing security for charging, it's about providing security for a mobile device packaged alongside other functionality that all mobile devices have to have, and which happens to be at a similar process size.

      First, let me explain the problem.

      Consumer OSes are far too large and complex to ever be secure. Android, iOS and any new players that may

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Agripa ( 139780 )

      The USB -C power delivery specification always included support for strong authentication between the device and charger. It was always intended that manufacturers be able to lock their devices to specific chargers and the first USB-C power delivery ASICs were advertised as supporting this.

  • DRM for USB (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Rejoice, here's a nice DRM trojan horse wrapped in a fast charging disguise...

  • they never really mentioned which phones would support these cables, and how much the ones in production would actually cost.

    Authenticating the device you're charging is a new take on profiteering, since the fast charging cables probably are optional for an extra cost.

    Hope this is as successful as Apples wireless charging.

  • Do I really need a 100W charger for my phone? If so, would a 1kW be 10X better?

  • 100 W of power suddenly makes things like this seem a lot more viable. [thinkgeek.com]

  • 9 lives. (Score:5, Funny)

    by Kaenneth ( 82978 ) on Tuesday May 28, 2019 @11:58PM (#58670400) Journal

    My sisters cat has chewed through at least 4 of my USB cables.

    This might put an end to that.

    • It's still only 20V. It won't harm the cat - but it'd hurt quite a lot to bite into. Let's see if the cat learns fast.

  • What happened to heat? (Score:3)

    by Snotnose ( 212196 ) on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @12:15AM (#58670434)
    10 years ago I worked on battery charging. The tradeoff was that the faster you charged the battery the hotter it got. Heat is the enemy of batteries, heat them up too much and their life goes into the toilet. I actually had a thermister I read every few seconds, when the temp hit a certain level I backed off the current sent to the battery.

    Has something changed in the last 10 years? Or are we ok with our batteries lasting months instead of years?

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by jimbo ( 1370 )

      This (100W version) is probably for things like laptops with USB devices connected, etc.

      From the release: "By supporting up to a 100W capacity, compared to the general smartphone charger’s 10W, power chargers with Samsung’s PD controllers can be used for a variety of devices other than smartphones such as tablets, laptops and monitors."

      But yes, in terms of phones I generally don't fast charge my phone. It has all night, might as well take it cool and slow.

    • Has something changed in the last 10 years? Or are we ok with our batteries lasting months instead of years?

      Yes, lots has changed in battery design. They last long, and can cycle harder, and capacities have also increased supporting increased charging power as a result. What hasn't changed is temperature targeted charging. That is very much the norm in every Smartphone.

      You're also making big assumptions about what you are charging. The only mention of smartphones is some ill conceived comparison to a phone charger. 100W USB-C charging will be perfectly at home in Laptops that have shipped with such large chargers

      • The only mention of smartphones is some ill conceived comparison to a phone charger.

        No, I don't think so. Smartphones charging rates are going up and up, and it makes perfect sense to charge your phone at 100W, even if only for a minute or two. Much longer than that and the charging rate will have to throttle way back to keep the battery from getting hot... but in two minutes at 100W you can add ~600 mAh. Being able to charge from 5% to 25% in two minutes is really valuable.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      It will only charge at 100W for a short period. If it charged at the full rate the phone could go from 0-100% in about 10 minutes, assuming a typical 3000mAh battery.

      In practice I expect the 100W period will be more like 2-3 minutes max to give a quick boost, adding hours of screen time. That's what you want when your battery is low, a quick hit that doesn't leave you tethered to the charger for half an hour.

  • ...Samsung's power chargers will now be able to support up to a 100W capacity: A 10x improvement over the 10W of a general smartphone charger.

    Sounds great, right? But wait, there's more, and it's not so great:

    Samsung said the MM101 supports a symmetric encryption algorithm called the Advanced Encryption Standard that enables product authentication.... The SE8A supports USB Type-C Authentication, the certificate-based authentication program for USB-C chargers and devices. "With enhanced security," Samsung e

  • What about the cable? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by jrumney ( 197329 ) on Wednesday May 29, 2019 @12:53AM (#58670502)

    The SE8A supports USB Type-C Authentication, the certificate-based authentication program for USB-C chargers and devices.

    So as long as my charger and my device authenticate cleanly, it willl let me push 5A@20V through that cheap 28 gauge (if you are lucky) Chinese USB cable?

    • Nope. It will only let you do that if the chip in the cable identifies itself to both ends as being capable of high power, otherwise it will limit to 3A charging as per the standard.

      As for burning your house down with Chinese junk*, you can do that any way you want. It's no the job of the USB specification to save you from devices that don't meet its requirements.

      *The only device I've ever melted in my house was a Chinese USB charger. The cable was fine though.

  • Samsung had to recall so cellphones that anyone, that they though they would give it another go.

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