Li-Ion Battery Inventor Creates Breakthrough Solid-State Battery, Holds 3X Charge (fossbytes.com) 306
A research team led by John Goodenough at the Cockrell School of Engineering (Yes, this is a legitimate story) has created a new fast charging solid-state battery. Decades ago, American physicist John Goodenough co-invented the lithium-ion battery, which is now omnipresent in today's technology. The team has published a research paper in the journal Energy and Environmental Science. Fossbytes reports: The design limitations of lithium batteries containing liquid electrolytes don't allow them to charge quickly. If done forcefully, it would lead to the formation of metal whiskers (dendrites). Eventually, a short circuit would happen, or the battery would explode. However, that's not the problem with the solid-state batteries. The researchers have used a solid glass electrolyte in place of the liquid one. The glass electrolyte allows the researchers to use the alkali metal anode (negative side) which increases the charge density of the battery and prevents the formation of dendrites. Also, the glass electrolyte enables a battery to operate in extreme temperatures of -20-degree celsius. You can read more via The University of Texas at Austin.
I'll wait (Score:5, Funny)
Until Jane Waybetter from Bulldaze School of Engineering comes out with an improved solid-state battery, winning the Valiant medal.
A "noble prize"? (Score:5, Informative)
Are you morons even trying anymore?
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Forget about it, Jake, it's BeauHD.
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It's on the short list for the Xenon awards.
Re:A "noble prize"? (Score:5, Funny)
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I though the editing was Goodenough.
Is it good for a thousand cycles? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Is it good for a thousand cycles? (Score:5, Informative)
From TFA: 'In experiments, the researchers’ cells have demonstrated more than 1,200 cycles with low cell resistance.'
Re:Is it good for a thousand cycles? (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Is it good for a thousand cycles? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Is it good for a thousand cycles? (Score:4, Funny)
It's Goodenough
Re:Is it good for a thousand cycles? (Score:5, Insightful)
Unlikely. This is another one of those amazing "breakthroughs" we see every week that goes nowhere.
Except that over the last decade we have seen dramatic battery improvements in cost, capacity, reliability, and charging speed, as a result of the very breakthroughs that you are denigrating.
Vibrations? (Score:3)
Fantastic, really. (Score:2)
But how economical is it to modify the existing multi-billion dollar battery factories to make these solid state batteries?
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Just build new ones.
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Money doesn't grow on trees. No one's going to finance a factory that costs 10x as much to build batteries with 3x the charge as 20% more discharges. That's not even taking into account how much more toxic waste the new factory discharges.
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Really? There is some serious competition in the battery sales world. The desire for range on electric cars alone should be enough to get one built. If the existing companies wont build it someone will. That's too big an improvement to ignore.
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Ha ha, right. If you were talking about quantity you'd be right. But if my batteries make someone's phone last three times as long as yours do, it's you and your investors who have the problem.
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An electric car with 3x the range ... ... ... ... ... GPS, emergency beacons, swim wests ...
Or a drone
Not to mention the people working on electric powered planes/helicopters
A phone that lasts three times as long
Naval equipment for sailors
You must live under a rock.
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> a modern ICE will cost you less than 4 grand in fuel for the entire life of the vehicle
In the USA, maybe. In nations where the tax on fuel makes up most of it's cost like the UK... I spend about £2,000 a year on fuel in my tiny little Skoda CitiGo, commuting a mere 60 miles round trip 4x a week.
Tesla Model 3 (the closest they've come to a mass-market car) has a range of 215 miles. The battery pack makes up a large amount of it's mass. If you can cut the battery down to 1/3rd the size, the range o
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People pay 10 times the price for LiFePO4 batteries than lead-acid batteries for their RV because it means more usable electricity, and the cost is a relatively minor part of the equation.
As for $100 more for a phone, already did so. The external battery case I have cost that much... and is well worth it.
It may be more expensive, but battery life is such a limiting factor on many things, that any way to expand on energy stored per volume will be used, even if the cost is a lot more.
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Re:Fantastic, really. (Score:4, Informative)
But how economical is it to modify the existing multi-billion dollar battery factories to make these solid state batteries?
Spoken just like Edsel Ford or just about anyone managing a US Steel plant since World War Two.
You do something like that or you eventually become far less relevant to the economy.
Re:Fantastic, really. (Score:5, Informative)
The irony of that statement is you are simplisticly casting yourself in my role without even attempting to find out that I'm an engineer that some years back worked in the manufacturing industry - you removed the complexity and placed a very simple strawman in the place of someone who has been considering this issue since the 1980s.
Also I gave two examples - two views of companies that were very reluctant to upgrade their processess and suffered very gravely.
I could have been as insulting as you have, but instead of pointing out appalling ignonance on your part I placed the spotlight on two examples of others who acted in the same appalling ignorance as you expressed.
Factories that do not upgrade process lines shut down while the work is carried out elsewhere in places that do. Haven't you heard of the "rust belt"?
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If you think this is a showstopper, you are not familiar with the economic history of semiconductor fabrication, are you?
Re:Fantastic, really. (Score:5, Insightful)
Wouldn't it make more sense to dominate the battery market? Are you one of those people who think Chevron is sitting on the technology to make 300mpg cars?
Re:Fantastic, really. (Score:5, Insightful)
Wouldn't it make more sense to dominate the battery market?
No, it makes more sense to produce shitty and expensive products whose quality degrades over lifetime than to sell products where the customer buys it once and is so happy with it they don't need to buy it again.
In fact, many products in the world have gotten planned obsolescence put into the product so that you have to buy a new one over time.
Ever heard of the light bulb cartel?
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Ever heard of the light bulb cartel
Yes, it fell apart within a decade because other companies started making cheaper, better light bulbs.
In a highly competitive market like batteries, these conspiracy theories become more and more unlikely.
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And unless your particular battery module is a commodity component, this is worth jack.
Nokia had the right idea on this ; most of their user-replaceable battery modules had lifespans longer than the line of phones they first appeared in. But with the trend toward integrated batteries, everyone started designing special-purpose units for one particular model, which is no longer worth manufacturing after that model became obsolescent. Which is a shame, because treated well, most phones will, as you note, outl
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Wouldn't it make more sense to dominate the battery market? Are you one of those people who think Chevron is sitting on the technology to make 300mpg cars?
They tied up the Cobasys patents for a long time. If it weren't for the Goodenough's work, we would likely still be waiting for viable electric cars
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NiMH batteries do not make viable electric cars. They make useless toys. Well, unless the guys at BASF can pull their 700 Wh/Kg out of their ass.
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The later second generation of General Motors EV1 ran on NiMH batteries, leased at prices comparable to a BMW, and had a 100-140 mile range on a full charge - more than enough for the vast majority of journeys (a 50 mile commute each way from city to city is about 3-4 hours driving depending on traffic, I sure as hell wouldn't want to drive more than that on a regular basis). Hell, even the 1st generation EV1 with a lead-acid battery (70-100 mile range) would be enough for my current commute.
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Except when you add two more wheels your mpg goes down, and then you add a body and it goes down again, you keep going down and adding things like windows, doors, radio, multiple seats etc.
You only get 100 mpg because you are carrying less weight per HP.
Re:Fantastic, really. (Score:4, Insightful)
" Are you one of those people who think Chevron is sitting on the technology to make 300mpg cars?"
Of course not, everyone knows Shell's sitting on that.
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For a while Chevron DID sit on a patent that would've allowed cheaper and longer-ranged EVs at the time:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Not a "new battery of the week" we're used to (Score:5, Interesting)
I think this one differentiate from the rest in two aspects: first, this one looks much more production-ready than all the others I heard about (TFA says "has more charging cycles, supports fast charging, and isn’t prone to catch fire"). It may be necessary improve mechanical strength (the glass electrolyte can be too brittle for real world applications), maybe voltage or current throughput... what do you think?
And second, this one is from the man that did it once before. For me, it's good enough (^^).
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And second, this one is from the man that did it once before.
Two words: Linus Pauling. (two Nobels)
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Well, there's absorbed glass mat (AGM) batteries which are actually more shock-resistant than standard flooded cells, so maybe there's hope.
Now this is very cool (Score:5, Insightful)
Or Hot :-). I read a number of articles from analysts who thought it would take around 15 years for the technology to be produced in commercial volumes. But the fact that it looks like this is going to happen at all, even with a 10-15 year time-frame, is a BIG deal. 3x the charge will give electric vehicles a 600+ mile range.
-Matt
Re:Now this is very cool (Score:5, Insightful)
Look, if this tech can actually make something like 600 mile EVs a reality, not to mention grid-scale energy storage to enable power grid stability with massive wind and solar generation displacing coal,
then there is no reason why a Manhattan-project scale effort (government led, or even UN led) should not be made to commercialize it in 5 years rather than 15.
No reason that is, other than the black hole vacuity sitting in the white house.
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+1. In a sane world led by grown-ups, this is what we would do. Maybe there's still hope, the EU or China could take the lead.
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You do know that central planning commercial production by the government is a cornerstone of fascism right?
You do know that development of the technology is not commercial production right?
Re:Now this is very cool (Score:5, Insightful)
I expect that faster charging might be a bigger deal for electric cars than greater capacity. The best electric cars have perfectly acceptable ranges, but if you plug them in it takes an hour to add back another 50 miles of range. If you could triple that figure, you'd really have something. Even a cross-continental trip would be feasible. You'd end up spending something like half as much time charging as driving, rather than the other way around.
Re:Now this is very cool (Score:4, Interesting)
The best electric cars (Tesla) can add about 150 miles of range in 30 minutes at a supercharger station. Stop for lunch for an hour or so, and you can add 200 miles (rate tapers down from the initial rush)
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Perhaps. But I imagine vanishingly few trips are 600miles without a significant break. Most EV owners charge overnight for most of their charges, and wake up to a fully charged car every morning. It therefore becomes irrelevant whether it takes ten minute or three hours to charge, and the rate-limiting step for home-charging is usually the availability of high-power charging. In the UK, you can get 7kW chargers if you can fit an isolator, and if you have three-phase supply (most people don't), you can get 2
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I always wonder how often people with electric cars forget to plug them in when they get home. That seems like the most common use of extended range, not long haul trips. It's the ability to get 2-3 days of short-haul use without having to charge.
It's common to be rushed when you get home, jump out of the car to attend to something and then completely forget about stuff in the car. A couple of times a month my wife says "Bye, I'm off to work" and then 30 seconds later is trudging back through the house b
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How far do you drive to work if you need a 600 mile range?! Come to think of it, how far do you drive to work if you need a 200 mile range?!
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I posted about this last time around. But here in the E.U. it is more or less impossible to exceed a 600 mile range while staying inside the working time directive for hours you can legally drive without taking breaks and the limit per day (worked out so we don't have people driving around tired and therefore a danger to the rest of us). Now working time directive only in theory applies to people in employment, but you have a crash having significantly exceeded those hours and it's grounds for prosecution (
Similar Tech with Plastic (Score:4, Informative)
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I think in any event it's exciting to see these advancements in battery technology and I can't wait until they make it out of the lab. I'm sure companies like Tesla are looking at this technology very carefully.
To that, I have to say... (Score:3)
...well, John, goodenough
Color me skeptical (Score:3)
Not peak battery (Score:2)
I certainly don't know if this particular approach will turn put great and we'll all be using glass batteries in a few years - but I don't think it matters. What I get from these stories, of various new battery technologies which include some which appear very practical is that *some* much better new technology will replace the current lithium-ion cells in a few years. I don't know or care if Goodenough's battery is the next big thing, I only care that there are enough highly promising ideas in the pipeli
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Hm. The costs of solar power have plummeted -- more than a hundred-fold decrease since 1977. Plentiful is mainly about political choices at this point.
https://cleantechnica.com/2014... [cleantechnica.com]
Re:Color me skeptical (Score:4, Informative)
It can take quite some time to move beyond the lab.
Goodenough et al demonstration of a rechargeable LiCoO2 cell was in 79-80 and it wasn't until 1991 that the 1st commercial Li-on battery was produced by Sony
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10 years wouldn't be too bad. On top of that, the incentives for commercialisation are sharper now than back then, so more resources are likely to be poured into this. On the other hand, there are many other battery tech innovations being pursued because of those sharper incentives, so this approach will have to compete with those others for resource.
Michigan (Score:5, Informative)
A few weeks ago, Nova showed a lithium-metal battery developed at Univ. of Michigan that uses plastic, has 2X the energy density of Li-ion, and doesn't explode or burn even when cut numerous times. Pogue showed such a battery continuing to produce power even when sliced many times with scissors.
This is my favorite Slashdot feature (Score:4, Funny)
I always look forward to Slashdot's famous Battery of the Week stories. Each week we are introduced to the latest battery breakthorough that is just around the corner. Or maybe 10 years down the road. Or maybe never. Does it matter that it will never be produced, and never available for sale? Absolutely not!
This is about dreams, and visions. It has nothing to do with reality. I'm a dreamer. MLK was a dreamer. The Everly brothers were dreamers. Mexicans are dreamers. We are all dreamers!
Dream on, mis amigos! Dream on!
out with the old (Score:2)
Where does this leave Elon Musk/Panasonic's Megafactory? He's churning out gazillions of old smelly batteries that nobody will want. His cars are full of dangerous old tech batteries that don't last long enough and take too long to charge. Can he buy this new tech and convert his factory? Stay tuned...
You can bet that Musk and Wall Street and many others invested in battery and energy storage tech are watching closely.
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He retools in 10 years when these batteries actually come to market.
Re:out with the old (Score:5, Insightful)
It leaves Musk happy. The megafactory churns out batteries until this (or something similar) gets commercialized, then he switches production to the new battery type. It will let Tesla make more cost-effective electric cars. (If the inventors can impress him enough, Tesla might hire them commercialize it itself. It would be a Muskian thing to do.)
It is people who have invested in lithium mining who are unhappy.
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Ho I understand the article, they still use lithium, only the electrolyte got replaced by a kind of glass. :D
But I might be wrong
Re: out with the old (Score:2)
From the final (U Texas) link:
âoeThe glass electrolytes allow for the substitution of low-cost sodium for lithium. Sodium is extracted from seawater that is widely available,â Braga said.
It can use lithium or sodium but sodium is cheaper. It may yet turn out that using lithium has advantages which justify the extra cost.
Radio shack (Score:2)
Have I somehow stumbled into the Radio Shack "battery of the month" club?
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Something similar. (Score:5, Interesting)
Saw this episode of NOVA, Search for the Super Battery [pbs.org] with David Pogue about Tufts University professor and engineer Mike Zimmerman and his solid plastic electrolyte, described here: New Damage-Proof Battery Has Higher Energy Density, Won’t Explode [pbs.org]:
But Zimmerman’s battery can withstand repeated damage without risking explosion or fire. In fact, it can continue to power devices even after most of it has been chopped away.
Watched him hit the batter pack it with a hammer, drive nails through it and cut it up with scissors all while the battery kept producing power.
Seems to me that (Score:2)
Great... (Score:2)
put it on the pile of other 'breakthrough' research we've seen the last couple of years, and most still aren't on the market for years to come..
I'll be applauding once we see these things actually in our devices/cars..
Another Hans Bethe (Score:2)
The man is 94 and still active. I remember Hans Bethe's colloquium when he was 94. I tip my hat to these people, they keep on going strong long after they made their major contributions to their fields.
Lets see it then. (Score:2)
If its so real. Until then, it's all lab work.
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Welcome to Canada! It's EXTREME!!!
Too extreme (Score:2)
Welcome to Canada! It's EXTREME!!!
Unfortunately too extreme since the batteries won't work for several weeks a year up here.
Re: Too extreme (Score:2)
Re: Too extreme (Score:2)
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What's the problem with < characters?
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It works just fine, if you use the entity instead of the character: "only lead acid are recommended to be used/work in < 0"
That is, to produce a '<' character, type <
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Or set your damn posting mode to plain text.
Re:Too extreme (Score:4, Interesting)
Not much of a problem. Electric cars are popular in Norway, despite Canadian temperatures and current battery technology. There is a simple fix for batteries in cold climate: Insulation and a battery heater. The heating may steal a few percent of range, which is much better than not being able to use the car at all. Insulation ensures that the heating losses are small.
And of course, a battery that only need heating when below -20C is much better than current batteries that like being heated up to +20C. (Which is what we call "summer temperature" here.) 3x capacity - even better!
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-20 C is not extreme, for many parts of Canada. [wikipedia.org]
OTOH, -40 can be extreme. (Note the lack of units: -40 C = -40 F)
Re:When is -20c extreme? (Score:5, Funny)
I highly doubt that -40 Coulombs equals -40 Farads.
Re: When is -20c extreme? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:When is -20c extreme? (Score:4, Interesting)
I mean, yeah it's cold. But it's a perfectly normal temperature to see in winter in many places in the world.
-20C is extreme if we are talking about the temperature of a phone in your pocket.
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
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He just isn't quite Goodenough.
Re:Check your facts (Score:5, Funny)
He just isn't quite Goodenough.
The man's 94 years old. You're going to have to be very, very creative to make a joke out of his name that he hasn't heard 1000x
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Is it not nobel to at least try?
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Ig Nobel, anyway. Especially the Ig Nobel awards, for science that makes you laugh and make you think.
http://www.improbable.com/ig/ [improbable.com]
Like the real Nobel awards, I've never been able to attend them. They do look like fun.
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Cause good enough
isn't good enough
for Goodenough!
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You're going to have to be very, very creative to make a joke out of his name that he hasn't heard 1000x
Is that because Goodenough is the enemy of perfection?
Re: -20C is not extreme, it is monday (Score:5, Informative)
As always, comments before reading TFA: "This is the first all-solid-state battery cell that can operate under 60 degree Celsius."
So yes, -20C is extreme for this type of solid state battery.
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A lead acid battery will freeze at -20C when it's below 60% charged.
Other types of rechargable batteries should not be used at all at that temperature.
Re:High "volumetric"density. Bad mass density? (Score:5, Interesting)
Probably not - no ingredient we've been told about is exceptionally dense.
From Wikipedia [wikipedia.org] Li-ion batteries have 100-265 W.h/kg and 250-676 W.h/L, which implies density of about 2.5kg/L.
This page [reference.com] gives typical density of glass as 2.4 to 2.8 kg/L. Sodium metal has density 0.97 kg/L. So the new cell should have similar or better mass density than the Li-ion cells.
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That would be true for a capacitor, not for a battery.
In a battery you only shift the charge from one side to the other.
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You know, like PGP is "Pretty good".