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Power Technology

Pacific Northwest Relying On Nuclear Energy During Cold Snap (forbes.com) 257

Slashdot reader Lije Baley writes: As the unusually long cold snap in the Pacific Northwest has both increased electric demand while decreasing snow melt and stream flows needed for hydroelectric generation, local power companies are asking their customers to conserve energy. Meanwhile, the region's last remaining nuclear plant has been a critical low-carbon resource for keeping the lights and heat on, as Forbes reports. "As reported by Annette Cary of the Tri-City Herald, the Bonneville Power Administration, which markets the electricity produced at the nuclear plant near Richland, asked Energy Northwest, the operator of the power plant, not to do anything that would prevent the plant from producing 100% power at all times during an unusually cold February across the state that increased the demand for electricity â" no maintenance activities, even on its turbine generator and in the transformer yard," reports Forbes. "Don't do anything that would stop the reliable and constant power output of nuclear."

"'No Touch' is requested by BPA when unusually hot or cold weather increases the demand for electricity, notes Mike Paoli, spokesman for Energy Northwest," the report adds. "Many regional transmission and system operators across the United States ask nuclear plants to keep running during extreme weather because nuclear plants are the least affected by bad weather. Columbia Generating Station has the capability to produce 1,207 MW, which is enough energy to power Seattle. And it is usually putting out all of this power at all times. Energy Northwest already has a diverse mix of non-fossil fuel generating systems that, in aggregate, produce over 10 billion kWhs of electricity each year while emitting less than 20 gCO2/kWh. The No Touch order at the Columbia Generating Station is expected to be lifted soon, although continued cold weather could require it to keep producing max power."
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Pacific Northwest Relying On Nuclear Energy During Cold Snap

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  • by satsuke ( 263225 ) on Tuesday March 05, 2019 @07:51PM (#58222268)

    Is 1,207 megawatts sufficiently close to 1.21 to say

    1.21 JIGGAWATTS!
    ?

    • Came to the comment section just for this. Thanks!

  • by b0s0z0ku ( 752509 ) on Tuesday March 05, 2019 @07:54PM (#58222278)
    We should be building more nuclear power plants, not cowarding out and shutting older ones down without replacement.
    • by ArhcAngel ( 247594 ) on Tuesday March 05, 2019 @08:42PM (#58222548)
      It has nothing to do with being cowardly and everything to do with economics. Since ~2006 the price of natural gas has been so low that it is actually cheaper to run an inefficient natural gas plant than a nuclear plant. Nuclear can't even touch a newer efficient plant. At one point it cost $0.03 kWh for natural gas produced electricity and $0.06 kWh for nuclear. It's the same reason coal mines are shutting down left and right. It has less to do with environmentalists and more to do with operating costs. I work for an energy company with a fleet of nuclear. Because of the operating costs all will eventually be decommissioned.
      • That's just proof that most "ecaaaaahnamists" are borderling mentally retarded. Their "ecahhhhnamics" doesn't take the future environmental costs of fossil fools into account. If we weren't cowards, we'd be taxing the living daylights out of fossil fools, including natural gas (fossil farts).
        • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

          William Nordhaus won the 2018 Nobel in Economics for his model that includes the effects of externalities for CO2. His paper says [econlib.org] that doing much more than a small increase in taxes is actually a net loss and we'd be better of putting the money elsewhere (which is also something Bjorn Lomborg also espouses. Pushing for the 1.5 deg C, or Gore's 90% cut goals nearly double the cost of doing nothing - and that's factoring in all those supposed externalities from fossil fuels.
          • Plenty of people who were later debunked have won Nobel Prizes.
          • by Freischutz ( 4776131 ) on Tuesday March 05, 2019 @10:17PM (#58222906)

            William Nordhaus won the 2018 Nobel in Economics for his model that includes the effects of externalities for CO2. His paper says [econlib.org] that doing much more than a small increase in taxes is actually a net loss and we'd be better of putting the money elsewhere (which is also something Bjorn Lomborg also espouses. Pushing for the 1.5 deg C, or Gore's 90% cut goals nearly double the cost of doing nothing - and that's factoring in all those supposed externalities from fossil fuels.

            "supposed externalities from fossil fuels" ??? Nordhaus isn't saying that fossil fuels have no environmental effects and that the byproducts created by burning them disappear into an alternate dimension or something and thus burning fossil fuels has no effect. He's basically saying that a 2 degree increase in global temperatures is more or less guaranteed because idiot politicians hooked on money from the fossil fuel industry have been sitting with their finger up their butt for far too long. Nordhaus acknowledges the potentially catastrophic impacts of this climate change so it is not as if he is in full agreement with the Trumpian/Kochian/Conservative point of view that climate change is a Chines hoax, not even close.

            • Check the table - it is basically twice as expensive to do the Green New Deal/Al Gore goal than to do nothing. Even doing the 1.5 deg C (Paris accord) is 1.7 times more money than doing nothing.
              • When preserving the only home we have is at stake, saving money shouldn't be the first priority. You have a roof leak in your house -- spend money to fix it, or let the ceilings collapse and toxic mold grow?
                • In this case - it is cheaper to let the mold grow and address it at that time, or replace the ceiling when it collapses. That is exactly what it is saying. In this case, it is cheaper to pay for the "damage to the home" than it is to try to prevent it.
                  • Then you have to live in a home full of toxic mold and with no ceiling. Money isn't everything. The world would be a better place if 90% of economists got t-boned by a bus and died screaming for morphine in a burn ward.
                    • If the alternative is to not live in a home because you cannot afford it, or live in a home with some toxic mold and no ceiling but with HVAC, plumbing, floors, Internet and a roof - which do you choose? The analysis uses the exact same model he won the Nobel for, the model that's used by the IPCC. And it shows we're trillions ahead to do nothing, as compared to most of what is pitched. Saying "it's not everything" is just a childish, unreasoned answer.
                    • Downsize your home and knock the existing one down if you can't afford it.
      • Right. But the thing is the price of natural gas fluctuates wildly not only on a seasonal level but also yearly. It is typically highly coupled with the price of oil. Currently the US has a lot of gas from fracking operations but who's to tell this will remain so in the long term? But yes, natural gas is presently the best option in economic terms.

        A nuclear reactor might take 6-8 years to build. So you can't ramp up the amount of reactors if you build it too late. Also, a lot of places in the US have diffic

      • by rastos1 ( 601318 )
        The price of the nuclear plant is high due mountains of red tape which is a direct result of nuclear scare.
      • The price of natural gas dropped so low because fracking made it cheaper to extract a lot more of it.

        Guess what the usual suspects think of fracking....

  • Nope not true (Score:2, Interesting)

    Here in Seattle we have our own hydroelectric dam, and I get 100 percent green energy from wind turbines (near the Gorge) and from solar panels here in the city (I own six of them, at the Aquarium, the Zoo, and at Capitol Hill Low Income Housing).

    It's the rest of the PNW that might be using nuclear. We export energy. Heck, our Governor just had his launch for President at a solar power manufacturing plant that I can see from my window. This county literally builds a lot of US solar and wind infrastructure

    • That's great until the water freezes, snow covers the solar panels, and the wind is calm. It's always nice to keep a reliable back-up.
      • Shows how little you know. Snow is easy to brush off solar panels, as most operating ski areas have proven, and mountain solar and wind tends to be fairly constant. Over a regional grid, the power curves of both tend to closely represent the actual demand use for power, which hydro can easily shape for a full power curve even in times of restriction.

        The major problem is dust, which Seattle tends not to have much of. Except during summers when the entire region is on fire, so don't move here. Especially if

        • I am sure you were out on top of the Aquarium, dusting the snow off your panels, right? Right?
          • The one at the Zoo probably has a bird chained to the panel constantly trying to get away, all that flapping blows the snow off the panel and powers a nearby wind turbine.
            • They trap them with windmills - that way the flapping wings drive the turbine, and when the bird is sliced and diced up, it makes great chum to feed the seals at the Aquarium!
    • Here in California, hydro is not considered renewable. And with snow on your panels, I'm sure they produced a LOT of solar power for you (and, having been born and raised in Seattle, I also know that 9 times out of 10, when it snows the wind is essentially still - it's the cold intrusion that brings calm winds and lets the snow happen).
      • Most of your California hydro comes from here (north of you). Literally. We sell the hydroelectric output of the Columbia River basin and BC sells the output of the Rocky mountain dams which is where your power comes from. Check your interstate grid compact for more details. You actually have a state commission that regulates that now.

        • YOU sell nothing. The BPA (Federal Government) sells the power. And most of our power (about 50%) comes from burning natural gas; hydro is around 14% of our electric production, about on-par with what we get from just the Diablo dam. That includes the power from the BPA.
      • Re:Nope not true (Score:4, Interesting)

        by PPH ( 736903 ) on Tuesday March 05, 2019 @08:34PM (#58222528)

        Here in California, hydro is not considered renewable.

        That's just hippy-dippy politics. Hydro power IS solar power, collected by the hydrological cycle.

        • Unfortunately, yes. Here if it's not a solar panel or windmill, it's not "green". Even though the State runs on natural gas and nuclear.
      • And with snow on your panels, I'm sure they produced a LOT of solar power for you ...

        Seattle is at latitude 47.6. That means solar panels are normally mounted more steeply than 45 degrees, and those that are adjusted from time to time to track the seasons or skewed in favor of winter generation are even steeper in the winter.

        The angle of repose of (dry) snow is about 38 degrees. So when the panels are really cold (like on a bitter night) it will just fall off, no wind necessary.

        When they're hot it will ei

        • Wet snow - you just described Seattle to a "T". It's anything but that wonderful, powdery stuff. And cold snaps tend to come in just a day or two, so the first layer always melts - and turns to ice soon thereafter, creating a nice base for snow to accumulate. Even on steep angles.
      • hydro is not considered renewable

        Where does the water go? Just disappears, eh?

        • Well, we flush half of it out for maintaining scenic rivers and to keep a few dozen Delta smelt living after being released from hatcheries. But we can't count large scale hydro as renewable because - solar? I honestly don't know. As someone who grew up in Seattle and the NW and with the BPA and massive hydro dams - I don't get it.
    • How is it "not true"? It says "Pacific Northwest", not "Seattle". I don't know what you mean by "literally builds" a lot of US solar and wind infrastructure. That certainly isn't true. Most wind turbines not made in the US and none are from Seattle. You are really full of yourself.

      • Go easy on him - he's recovering from going to the Aquarium and the Zoo to dust the snow off his solar panels! #FeelGoodEnvirowhacko
  • But GRID! (Score:4, Funny)

    by LynnwoodRooster ( 966895 ) on Tuesday March 05, 2019 @08:01PM (#58222314) Journal
    We should send all the solar power we've been generating here in Southern California during the last few weeks of rain and clouds... Oh wait...
    • Weather is not climate! The entire state of CA being cold and wet for months on end does not mean a DAMN THING when talking about climate!!!

      6 months from now: CA had the hottest August in the last 11 months! CLIMATE CHANGE!!!11!!

      • Re:But GRID! (Score:5, Interesting)

        by LynnwoodRooster ( 966895 ) on Tuesday March 05, 2019 @08:22PM (#58222448) Journal
        Well, when you can edit the past to erase warming trends - yeah, claim what you want... In the mean time, I know the reservoirs in California are all pretty much at or above historical averages, we have MORE rain coming, record cold for a few months now (including a rare snow in Los Angeles - its been 57 years since the previous snow), and I'm sure Governor Newsom will NOT lift the drought - even though we also have a Sierra Nevada snowpack that is at 141% of normal. Time to brace for Spring and early-summer floods!
        • Woosh.

      • by Layzej ( 1976930 )
        If CA has the hottest temp in the last 11 months, it will be the hottest ever recorded [ojaihub.com] Nowdyagetit?.
    • by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

      Funny enough, we don't have the conservation messages. The only conservation messages we got were a few months ago when they asked to conserve natural gas because a pipeline exploded and was only running at 50% capacity.

      So north of the border of the Pacific Northwest, we've got electricity. Yes, they've noted that power consumption has gone up (duh, it's cold) but well within system capacity.

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Look at how fragile this system is. It's on "no touch" at the moment, can't even maintain it, because if it goes down they instantly lose over a gigawatt.

      For energy security you need greater distribution and some decent storage.

  • All your GREEN energy can't hold a candle to one nuke plant. The problem with your solar/wind crap, is that you can't "spool up" like you can with a nuke plant when demand goes up.
    • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 05, 2019 @10:00PM (#58222840)

      Point of order: Nuclear reactors are actually notably very bad at "spooling up." They don't ramp more than a few percent per hour because it disrupts the balance of transient neutron poisons (esp Xe-135) in the reactor core which is bad for reactivity control authority (i.e. knowing exactly how much control you have to speed up or slow down the reactor).

      Coal is pretty bad too, but nat gas turbines and hydro can both start/stop much, much faster. And Tesla's giant ass battery in Australia can do it close to instantly (within some msec), which makes it extremely valuable for grid levelling.

  • mr burns sun blocker 2.0!

  • Somewhere, Scotty is saying "The engines canna take much more!"

  • by Crashmarik ( 635988 ) on Tuesday March 05, 2019 @09:22PM (#58222732)

    http://www.startribune.com/dee... [startribune.com]

    The brutal cold gripping Minnesota made itself felt in tens of thousands of living rooms Wednesday as Xcel Energy resorted to asking customers to turn their thermostats down to 63 degrees to conserve natural gas.

    https://www.americanexperiment... [americanexperiment.org]

    The screenshot below is from Electricity Map. It’s a fun app that tells you how your electricity is being generated at any given moment in time. Turns out wind is producing only four percent of electricity in the MISO region, of which Minnesota is a part.

    While that’s not good, what’s worse is wind is only utilizing 24 percent of it’s installed capacity, and who knows how this will fluctuate throughout the course of

    It's a real shame that turning on the lights doesn't make the wind blow.

    • by jbengt ( 874751 )
      Minneapolis is the one place I've seen a dual-fuel boiler used for demand-limiting gas consumption. The gas company gave them a special interruptable rate, so when demand got too high for the utility in the winter, they could automatically shut down the gas supply to the boiler and switch to diesel. So your anecdotes might be more about the availability of gas, than the availability of solar and wind.
  • "nuclear plants are the least affected by bad weather"

    Unless the river they get their cooling water from is frozen in winter or in summer if it is too low or already too hot.

  • Anyone who's protested nuclear power should be prohibited from receiving it.

The truth of a proposition has nothing to do with its credibility. And vice versa.

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