Trump Administration Wants To End Subsidies For Electric Cars, Renewables (reuters.com) 481
White House economic adviser Larry Kudlow said on Monday that the United States wants to end subsidies for electric cars and other items including renewable energy sources. "Asked about actions planned after General Motors announced U.S. plant closings and layoffs last week, Kudlow said he expected subsidies for buying electric cars will end in 2020 or 2021," reports Reuters. "Kudlow said the Trump administration will end other subsidies, including on 'renewables.'"
Good (Score:2, Insightful)
We shouldn't be subsidizing luxury vehicles for the wealthy.
Put the money into public transport and renewable energy instead.
Re:Good (Score:5, Insightful)
We shouldn't be subsidizing luxury vehicles for the wealthy.
Put the money into public transport and renewable energy instead.
EV's are not luxury vehicles for the wealthy, and haven't been for some time.
For example, the Nissan Leaf starts at $30K -- in a country where the average price for a new car is $33K.And no one that's driven a Leaf could confuse it with a Luxury car. Some expensive EV's do receive subsidies... which is good since it means that affluent early adopters pay a premium for new technology and then as the technology is refined, it trickles down into more affordable vehicles.
EV's are part of a renewable energy plan - not only are they more energy efficient and cleaner than gasoline powered cars, they automatically take advantage of the shift to renewable power in the energy grid.
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And I was able to get a used Leaf for $6300. It's range isn't great, but it meets my needs. If the original purchaser didn't get a tax credit, that used car likely wouldn't have been available for me.
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Lol.. Tiny vehicle that barely holds 4 passengers and a grocery bag starts at $30K.. and it isn't a luxury.
The Leaf has 24 ft^3 of cargo space (with the seats up), compared to a 29 ft^3 for a $45K BMW X3. You can buy a lot of grocery bags for that extra $15K in your pocket and you don't need to go to gas stations any more.
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My first car was a huge 6 six seater built in 1967. My next two cars were barely 4 seaters and you know what? They suited me just fine. When I got married and had kids, we purchased more family oriented vehicles but one was always an economy car. The last car I bought for myself cost $12,000. I've never owned a brand new car.
So last Spring after about 16 years, our most recent economy car was becoming less reliable and we decided to replace it. I wanted to spend less than $10,000 but opted to
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That's the average - and it's pulled up by luxury sedans and big pickups. The Leaf is a compact, and comparing like-to-like the average cost of a new compact in the US is in the $20k range. Also, the last time I looked, the average income recommended to be able to afford a car in the $30-35k range (Leaf to low end Model S) pu
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EV's are not luxury vehicles for the wealthy, and haven't been for some time.
For example, the Nissan Leaf starts at $30K -- in a country where the average price for a new car is $33K.And no one that's driven a Leaf could confuse it with a Luxury car.
The posting says the subsidies would end in 2020 or 2021. Given the cap on sales already in place the subsidy on the Leaf will probably end before that anyway. I would suggest though that tax credits should only apply to cars manufactured in America. The Leaf is made in America, Japan, and the UK.
Re:Good (Score:5, Informative)
If you don't like EVs, you should be for repealing the subsidy because you don't think EVs should be subsidized.
If you like EVs, you should be for repealing the subsidy because it unfairly benefits wealthy people.
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The Federal $7500 EV subsidy was structured as a tax credit. To take full advantage of the credit, you had to owe at least $7500 on your Federal taxes the year you bought/leased the EV.
That's not a tax credit, that's a tax rebate. A tax credit is given to you when you file your taxes whether you owe or not.
If you like EVs, you should be for repealing the subsidy because it unfairly benefits wealthy people.
In a simpler world, that might be true. In the real world, issues like this are complex. The more EVs sold to wealthy people, the more EVs can be produced for less-wealthy people because of economies of scale.
Re:Good (Score:5, Insightful)
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The Nissan Leaf may be $30K while the average price for a new car is $33K, but that's only because the average new car is not a compact, which is the classification that the Leaf falls in. A brand new compact vehicle can be purchased for $20K or sometimes even less.
True, but total cost of ownership of the Leaf will often be lower. You trade a higher payment for lower fuel and maintenance costs. So it's not a car for the wealthy, it's a car for the prudent whose driving patterns fit certain (extremely common) profiles.
I did this exact analysis quite thoroughly several years ago before I bought my Leaf. In practice I find that I actually underestimated the operational cost difference... and the purchase price difference turned out to go the other direction, thanks to
Re:Good (Score:5, Funny)
I personally don't want to die in a car that is not much bigger then a beer can.
Maybe, but then you should blame American beer can sizes.
Re: Good (Score:5, Insightful)
Want to talk economics? China has lots of companies producing electric cars. The first versions were shit, but they are improving rapidly. Companies like BYD are building new factories all over the place. There's Chinese electric scooters (lots of them), Chinese electric sedans, Chinese electric sports cars, Chinese electric buses, Chinese electric garbage trucks, etcetera. Their technology is improving rapidly and volume is increasing exponentially. They are still nowhere near Tesla quality, but they'll get there eventually.
Meanwhile, what's the US doing? Hitting the brakes to preserve profits for old fashioned ICE engine manufacturers. Until one day, in a decade or so, they wake up to drastically better batteries so nobody wants a loud smelly ICE anymore. And you'll all be driving Chinese cars because the US is way behind the curve.
Way to go for short term economic benefit.
Same goes for green electricity. It's already becoming cheaper than coal, and one day it won't make sense anymore to keep burning stuff to generate electricity. Guess who will have the required know-how for these new technologies? Countries encouraging them, or countries trying to protect their vested interests in old technology? Good luck to the US.
Re:Good (Score:5, Insightful)
They're not cheaper yet, because of
1. Hidden subsidies for anything oil-related
2. Hidden price of pollution
3. Lack of economics of scale.
By using subsidies, you can increase volume so you solve number 3 and get 1 and 2 as a bonus.
Seriously, if you look at the complexity of a modern ICE engine, how can it possibly be cheaper? Only because the technology for producing enormous quantities of them has already been paid for.
Re:Good (Score:5, Insightful)
Oil, coal, and natural gas all have subsidies in the form of special tax treatment as well as security paid for by the rest of society ($2 trillion for the gulf war... and 4,000 dead).
Solar subsidies are tiny in comparison. And it's *clear* that solar is going to be superior, less costly, *and* blow a hole in the saudi and russian budgets.
Re: Good (Score:4, Interesting)
You do know that gov't subsidies got internal combustion going back in the 1910's right? When ev trollies, with low operating costs and long lifespans, were supplanted with busses?
Re:Good (Score:5, Insightful)
How many people are buying that leaf? I personally don't want to die in a car that is not much bigger then a beer can. I think They should be elminated for cars that are higher end, like most Tesla model's that cost near 6 figures. Those tax breaks were made specificcly for rich people early on since they were only ones that could afford EV's. So I think Should be an income threshold on who can get those Subsidies.
Around 100K people have bought the Leaf over the past 5 years.
The Leaf has a 5 star safety rating and you're safer driving it than you are driving a full-size pickup. Granted, if you're in a collision with that pickup, you're more likely to die in a small car, but you're still statistically safer in a small car with a good safety rating, because most collisions are not head on collissions between cars.
The point of giving subsidies even for $80K Teslas is that it makes people more likely to buy them (it turns out that even wealthy people like saving money), and the expensive cars are the proving ground for expensive new techology (expensive to produce and maintain), as that technology is refined, then it makes its way into cheaper cars. The $40K Tesla Model 3 would never have existed if the $100K model S wasn't developed first.
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Safety ratings are a joke because they don't control for the mass of the car in the way most people would expect.
The * rating often neglects what you're up against. 5* don't mean shit when you're colliding with something that's 3 times your mass, or even just the same mass, but taller (by default, or lifted up by some jackass) so their engine just slides up your hood and into your face.
Re:Good (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Good (Score:4, Informative)
Volvo impact zones are great.
Volvo impact zones were great for the size and type of vehicle manufactured in a given year. That is all. There is no more to it than that.
Here's an older Volvo colliding with a small Renault POS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com] Unlikely the Volvo driver survives. Age and design play fare more of a role than "volvo great!"
And some marketing for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com] Smart colliding with a vehicle with over twice it's mass.
Re:Good (Score:5, Insightful)
In the scenario you describe, the massive vehicle's engine would be much more likely to slow down by crushing your engine, then run up the body and end up sitting nicely on top of your cabin, which has absorbed a huge amount of energy to break intentionally-weak welds, twist flexing beams, and otherwise slightly deform while keeping the passengers safely inside with minimal change in their protected space.
As it turns out, using "the way most people would expect" is a really poor substitute for using models and simulations to design prototypes, then actually testing them. While people are most afraid of getting crushed by something 3 times their mass, far more injuries and fatalities actually come from the sudden acceleration (or deceleration, if you prefer) during an impact. Making bigger and sturdier cars actually increases the hazard. Instead, vehicles with crumple zones and more flexibility will absorb the impact more slowly, drastically reducing the chance of damaging the occupants.
Sure, it's more likely that your car will look badly damaged in a collision, but you'll live to complain about it.
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People buying the $100k roadster would've purchased regardless, it's not about saving money at that point. Neither is the $40k Tesla, if saving money is an issue the rich would all ride in used Toyota's not Volvo/BMW/Mercedes.
Even Musk has asked for the removal of the subsidies. It's only benefitting if you are paying $8k in taxes anyway and most people making less than 125k typically do not end up owing $8k at the end of the year for an offset to be useful.
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So here you have people willing to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a house (or making hundreds of thousands) and the deal falls through over what amounts to less than $1000 worth of appliances. You might think that these are brand new high end models or something
Re:Good (Score:4, Informative)
I personally don't want to die in a car that is not much bigger then a beer can
Is this why so many Americans are alcoholics? It's a perfectly reasonably sized four-door sedan. I realize you people generally don't leave the house unless everyone in your family can belch soot from their very own oversize vehicle, but those of us in the civilized world realize we don't need an aircraft carrier on wheels to pick up the kids from sports practice.
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The Leaf is made by Nissan. GM makes the Chevy Volt and Bolt. These are a lot cheaper than anything Tesla makes, and they are selling as many electric cars as Tesla is (i.e. Both Tesla and GM are near the end of their tax subsidy eligibility which expires when a company sells 200,000 electric cars)
False. Tesla has sold 95k in the US (180k total) model 3s in 2018 alone. The Volt and Bolt sell about 27k total in 2018. And Telsa hit their limit in July of this year. GM isn't anywhere near theirs yet.
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If you're afraid of dying on the road, maybe a bus or train would suit you better.
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Are there really buyers of $50K+ Teslas that needed a subsidy? I don't think so.
"Need"? That's hard to say. But "want"? That's more clear -- it's safe to say that fewer people would have bought a $50K+ Tesla without a subsidy.
Re:Good (Score:5, Insightful)
The EV tax credit and similar state programs encourages more people to buy EVs, which in turn encourages car manufacturers to make and sell them. Tesla has used this to get them to a high-volume $35K car (which they'll hit while the tax credit is phasing out). Nissan has used it to make a more affordable shorter-range EV, and they've increased the range to be more practical as they approach the phase-out of the federal tax credit. I think both companies have used the credit to expand the EV market and drive the manufacturing costs down. (And GM, too.)
The issue I have is that the companies that used the credit constructively are now facing the phase-out while those that waited to jump in after they did all the work will get to take advantage of it over the next few years. The credit should phase out for everyone together, not on a per-company basis.
Re:Good (Score:4, Insightful)
We shouldn't be subsidizing luxury vehicles for the wealthy.
Put the money into public transport and renewable energy instead.
Electric vehicles and the associated technology necessary for their cost-effective development for distribution to the masses depends upon subsidizing its early research and advancement.
Sure, the rich are the only customers early on, but as the R & D is paid for, before you even know it, microwaves and VCRs are available to the common folk.
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Fair enough. He's not going to do that either.
Re:Good (Score:5, Insightful)
In the 1980's, Reagan used this argument to completely end renewable energy research and development. In the process he handed all the jobs, profits, and other benefits to Asia and Germany.
Yes, right now the electric cars are a luxury item. Back them renewable energy was a luxury few of us could afford. You had to have disposable income to buy your electricity from Green Mountain energy. Unfortunately all those wind turbines are controlled by the Germans and Danes.
Now, I personally find no value in manufacturing in the US. I don't think that our work force, unwilling to be educated beyond the 8th grade, can really manufacture high tech quality products. But if we are going to continue to pursue a manufacturing economy, the Tesla model, god help us, is as good as any path forward. But it is not refined, efficient, or self sustaining.
So we have a choice. Give all the jobs to the Germans, or subsidize the process.
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Re:Good (Score:5, Insightful)
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First, the quote in the summary doesn't exist in the linked article, which is about Trump, China and car tariffs, but not about EVs. The actual Reuters article is here [reuters.com].
Second, it's expected that the current subsidies will pretty much all run out by 2020/2021, hence the quote about ending them then. The proposal seems to be to not create new subsidies, more than ending existing ones, but the article isn't exactly clear. Either way, given two years advance notice before they'd run out, I don't think you can c
So? (Score:4, Insightful)
If, as is often stated here, renewables are the most cost-effective energy sources, then they shouldn't need subsidies.
And if they Do, in fact, need the subsidies, then they're NOT the most cost-effective energy sources....
Re:So? (Score:5, Insightful)
They need subsides to help get started, especially in markets where local government has given fossil fuel groups massive discounts to operate.
Re:So? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:So? (Score:5, Insightful)
Fossil fuels effectively get one really big subsidy -- they are de-facto allowed to trash the atmosphere and the environment, and generally not required to pay for the necessary cleanup afterwards. That means either the rest of us will have to pay for the cleanup, or (more likely) pay for the ongoing costs of having to live with the mess in perpetuity. Either way, it's a transfer of wealth to the fossil fuel industries from the rest of humanity.
End that subsidy, and unsubsidized renewables become extremely competitive.
Re:So? (Score:4, Insightful)
Local governments don't give discounts to ANYONE. Their goal is taxes Taxes TAXES and more taxes. If you think President Trump is an asshole, it shows you haven't sized up your local government lately.
My local government is not too capriciously irresponsible, as expected, so the only surprise is you state: "If you think President Trump is an asshole, it shows you haven't sized up your local government lately" as if it's the only plausible justification for admitting the Commander in Chief is an asshole.
Re:So? (Score:4, Informative)
Provisions of the federal income tax that subsidize domestic production of fossil fuels include the expensing of exploration, development, and intangible drilling costs; the use of percentage depletion instead of cost depletion to recover drilling and development costs of oil and gas wells and coal mining properties; and numerous smaller incentives for production and distribution of oil, coal, and natural gas.
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subsidize
See that word there? 8th word in the quote? I didn't put it there.
Re:So? (Score:5, Insightful)
There are two problems with your argument:
1. Non-renwables often come with "external" costs, such as pollution that are not accounted for in their financial costs. Someone is paying those prices.
2. New technologies often take a lot of work to make practical, again someone needs to pay those prices to make them viable.
Since we (the U.S. here) have decided not to put taxes (e.g. cap-and-trade) in place to handle those externalities, and we have a history of subsidizing research and development, this is the way we have done it.
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These arguments about (THE REAL) costs of batteries are, I think specious. I would like to see references that support them.
As a (very satisfied) new Tesla Model 3 owner, I would like to comment that Tesla, the car/energy-wall company has apparently made battery costs much lower through economies of scale, which has benefited ALL EV producers and had helped to solve grid distribution problems on a grand scale in, e.g., Australia, Puerto Rico. Would this have happened without subsidies? Probably, but I t
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This is absurd. That's like saying coupons don't save money because you still have to pay the remaining balance with cash.
The mitigation for inconsistent supply doesn't necessarily have to be fossil either. Could be nuclear, pumped-storage, or just sufficient oversupply of renewables.
100% is kind of a weird line to make. Why wouldn't it help at 99%?
Re:So? (Score:4, Insightful)
I think the standard Slashdot reply is to point out that they are cost-effective if negative externalities (CO2 emissions, pollution) are included. But often they are not.
Any numbers you can share? (Score:2)
I see this counter argument all the time, but I have never seen numbers to back it up.
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According to a 2007 Journal of Economic Literature article by Ian W. H. Parry, Margaret Walls, and Winston Harrington [rff.org], table 2, covering externalities related to greenhouse warming (under the assumption the IPCC has it all right) would justify a $.06/gallon gas tax. This isn't from anti-climate folks, this article is the one cited most by pro-climate change believers and is very anti-cars, pro super-high gas-tax.
The average U.S. gas tax is already 700% higher than needed to cover that specific externality.
Re:So? (Score:5, Insightful)
If, as is often stated here, renewables are the most cost-effective energy sources, then they shouldn't need subsidies.
The subsidies for fossil fuels are already built-in to our economy so they are invisible, renewables are the newcomer so their subsidies are more explicit.
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Its really cost effective to die. Your costs go down to zero.
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Virtually nobody buys the most cost-effective vehicle. We mostly follow the crowd. This makes change, no matter how positive, difficult.
Even if we did buy the most cost-effective vehicle from an individual's POV, there is no logical reason that that would be the most cost-effective vehicle for society. Society has a stake in the game that pure capitalism does not represent. Infrastructure costs, employment of workers, disposal costs, international relations costs, medical costs, etc. do not come into play w
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The U.S. barely imports fossil fuels anymore. We don't need anything from the middle east, we'd easily be covered by just Canada, for example. We're a net exporter (barely) for natural gas and refined fuels and on pace to be a net exporter of crude oil [theguardian.com] within the next 10 years.
So what does the military and intelligence agencies have to do with oil subsidies? Defending the country is now a burden supposed to be borne by a single industry?
Gasoline in the U.S. is already heavily taxed, averaging 25-35% of the
Only reasonable if we tax fossil fuels (Score:5, Insightful)
This is only reasonable if we tax fossil fuels. Renewables are generally cleaner than fossil fuels, though not entirely clean. Energy should be taxed based on the costs to repair the environmental damage that has to be cleaned up and the costs of mitigating their impacts. In this respect, fossil fuels are far more expensive and should be taxed at a higher rate that reflects their true costs of use.
We do (Score:4, Informative)
You can argue we're not taxing fossil fuels enough. But it's silly to pretend they're not taxed. As the Tesla EVs are rated at about 30 kWh per 100 miles, at the U.S. average electricity price of 11.5 cents/kWh, that works out to $3.45 of electricity per 100 miles. A 25 MPG vehicle pays $2 in fuel taxes per 100 miles, so its taxes amount to 58% of the electricity price needed to power the EV. In some states with higher fuel taxes, the fuel tax alone is about the same as the cost of electricity to power an EV over the same route.
Re:We do (Score:4, Insightful)
To the tune of about 50 cents per gallon. This far, far exceeds the subsidy oil companies receive, which works out to less than 10 cents per gallon
It looks like you didn't figure in externalities, like being permitted to pollute like mad bastards. Figure in the cleanup cost (including fixing all the carbon released during the refining process) and get back to us.
It's actually the inverse (Score:3)
While there may be tax credits at the Federal level, at least 17 states [greentechmedia.com] charge additional registration fees for electric vehicles once the battery gets above a small (hybrid) battery size.
They do this to make up for loss gas taxes, but charge for such at a flat rate that does not factor in mileage or if you have a plug-in hybrid.
So if you purchase your electricity from charging stations which try to be gas-price equivalents, you end up paying more to fuel an electric car than had you just fueled a gas one.
W
End all subsidies (Score:5, Insightful)
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>"Fine, but take the rest of the subsidies with them."
+100
Absolutely should, at least at the Federal level.
>"The U.S. has slowly morphed into a petty kleptocracy where everyone is picking everyone else's pocket."
That is what happens when the government gets too big and powerful.... which is why the original design was supposed to keep the Fed small.
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Fine, but take the rest of the subsidies with them. Whether that's the farmers, the oil companies, the various housing subsidies, or anyone else getting a deal.
Does this include the "red" states that receive more money than they give to the federal government? That's the biggest subsidy of them all. It's also a surefire way to bankrupt most Republican led states.
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If you can't live unless it's at someone else's expense, then throw yourself at the feet of someone else's charity.
Yeah, the problem is that there are other interests like national security. Do we really want to find ourselves at the mercy of another nation because they produce our food? Also, we've seen how that works out for people who actually do throw themselves at the feet of someone else's charity: they die. You can say, "well that's how it goes" like a sociopath but that doesn't make it right.
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Since when is giving your money to the federal government considered a good thing? FFS really? That's the hill you choose to die on?
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Since when is giving your money to the federal government considered a good thing?
Since it started being used to pay for federal programs. Do you think the military is a charity? Do you think we shouldn't fund the military at all? That speaks volumes about you.
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Yes, end all the subsidies completely. Make them unconstitutional (which they technically are already) and enforce it this time.
BTW, the "red" states only receive more money than they give if you count things like military retirement benefits to individuals and federal poverty programs as part of the accounting. If you're counting medicare/social security, you're basically just looking at which states people retire in, not some subsidy to the state itself. Otherwise, it's the reverse. So yeah, feel free to
Re:End all subsidies (Score:5, Funny)
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We'll find out who is telling the truth, I guess (Score:2)
I want a unicorn dragon (Score:2)
Last time I checked, the US Constitution says it's Congress, specifically starting in the US House of Representatives, that makes laws.
Presidents who don't control the House have very very very little power.
They're Weak.
Sad.
Maybe he should try getting an actual trade deal with China, because the Chinese translation of the "deal" says he has no deal, so he's just being Weak. Again.
Take that and stuff it in your Denial pipe.
Put the money into new Nuclear Energy (Score:4, Insightful)
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Yay, more subsidies to nuclear! An industry that has lived on gigantic subsidies since the 40's and has never spouted out a single fully non-subsidised, private-funded plant anywhere in the world, that still promises only economic disaster with yet another generation of miserable failures like the now-legendary 3rd+-generation Olkiluoto 3 [helsinkitimes.fi], 10 years late and procrastinating (I am thrilled to see whether they break the record of Duke Nukem Forever, they are quite close), while renewables have a proven track r
A correct URL for the story (Score:5, Informative)
The URL in the top post leads to a story about trade talks. Different source, but the material about subsidies.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news... [bloomberg.com]
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And cut the $20B/year from fossil fuels (Score:5, Insightful)
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So that accounts for 1% of the price of a gallon of gas. Now how about the 25-30% of a gallon of gas which goes to special gas taxes? How do you account for that in your "subsidy" calculation?
Yeah, thought not. But sure, subsidies are actually higher for "renewables" than you state, so let's get rid of all of them and let the market sort it out. I'm good with that.
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Orange man bad
End all subsidies of "green" boondongles (Score:2)
In the name of "man made" Global Warming!!!! Oh noes!!!
(I do not like welfare. For individuals AND companies.
While they're at it ... (Score:3)
Perhaps they'll also kill the (up to) $12 Billion in subsidies [reuters.com] to farmers getting hammered by the Administration's own tariffs. Oh, wait ...
Electrify Military (Score:2)
Not much to see here ..... (Score:2)
Those of us with solar panels on our roofs in states that offer "SREC" credits should already be used to this....
Once promised as a great way to make your solar panels pay for themselves, SRECs are now practically worthless in every state with the program, except for maybe Washington DC. (That's only true there because a lot of people can't put solar panels up since they rent or live in multi-level properties where they don't own rights to put things on the roof. And another big segment of DC is too poor to
Re:Good (Score:5, Informative)
That's completely false. Even in areas where the electricity is generated by coal, they still result in lower emissions than gas cars. And as the electric grid gets cleaner, the cars get cleaner. Also, a significantly higher percentage of EV owners install solar, so much of the power is completely emissions free.
Re:Good (Score:4)
Again, false.
There have been crazy studies that show things like that that oil interests have funded. No surprise there. They generally make assumptions like the batteries being discarded after five years (ignoring that well-designed batteries last longer, they can be repurposed, and they can be recycled). And shipping is generally negligible for anything these days. Shipping the completed cars uses far more energy than shipping the parts, and you have to do that with any vehicle.
Car companies are avoiding EVs for two major reasons. EVs don't wear out as quickly, so they don't get as many repeat customers, and EVs don't take advantage of their sunk costs in gas powertrains.
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Re: Good (Score:5, Informative)
A free market for energy does not exist. OPEC is a cartel of countries that set production levels to manipulate oil prices and control the supply.
OPEC is a cartel. But the market is less distorted than you think, at least in the US.
The US consumes about 20 million barrels/day of oil (source [eia.gov]). Net imports are 5 million. 1/3 of imports come from OPEC countries. So OPEC is not able to exert monopolistic power.
Today's price for OPEC crude is $58.33. West Texas crude is at $53.37. Suffice it to say, any oil user in the US that has access to WTI crude is getting it. Imported crude users are likely refineries that do not have pipeline access to the domestic supply.
Once US oil exports ramp up, things might change, but for now, OPEC's price-setting ability is pretty subdued in the US.
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A free market for energy does not exist. OPEC is a cartel of countries that set production levels to manipulate oil prices and control the supply.
OPEC is a cartel. But the market is less distorted than you think, at least in the US.
The US consumes about 20 million barrels/day of oil (source [eia.gov]). Net imports are 5 million. 1/3 of imports come from OPEC countries. So OPEC is not able to exert monopolistic power.
Today's price for OPEC crude is $58.33. West Texas crude is at $53.37. Suffice it to say, any oil user in the US that has access to WTI crude is getting it. Imported crude users are likely refineries that do not have pipeline access to the domestic supply.
Once US oil exports ramp up, things might change, but for now, OPEC's price-setting ability is pretty subdued in the US.
Energy is a global market and the prices are global. Different regions have different prices because the oil is different.
https://www.investopedia.com/a... [investopedia.com]
OPEC's power is way down because they no longer control so much of the supply. The low cost of fracking has wrecked their market.
The US is now a major oil and gas producer, is still sitting on hundreds of years of coal, and has a growing renewable sector.
It's a huge diversity of supply. Maybe not complete energy independence yet, but getting there.
Re:About time! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
This is just Trump fluffing the Saudis.
Thanks for that imagery.
Re:Every other article posted here (Score:5, Insightful)