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Printer Businesses Government The Courts The Internet United States

20 States Take Aim At 3D Gun Company, Sue To Get Files Off the Internet (arstechnica.com) 490

Posted by BeauHD from the ctrl-+-z dept.
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: Twenty states announced Monday that they plan to ask a federal judge in Seattle to immediately issue a temporary restraining order against Defense Distributed, a Texas-based group that has already begun making 3D-printer gun files available on its DEFCAD website after a recent legal settlement with the US State Department. "After almost 18 months I was skeptical that there was anything else that this administration would do that would truly shock me, but they have," Washington Attorney General Bill Ferguson told reporters assembled in Olympia and by phone. "Frankly, it is terrifying... We think that it is important to put a stop to this right away and make it as difficult as humanly possible to access this information." The new lawsuit, which Ferguson explained will be filed "within hours," comes just one day after Defense Distributed voluntarily agreed to block IP addresses from Pennsylvania after that state's attorney general filed a similar motion in federal court there. "Pennsylvania is still suing and we are still responding," Defense Distributed's founder, Cody Wilson, told Ars. Preemptively on Sunday, Defense Distributed sued the attorney general of New Jersey and the city attorney of Los Angeles to stop those lawsuits, largely on First Amendment grounds.

In this new 20-state initiative, the Washington attorney general argued that the State Department settlement violated the Administrative Procedure Act and also infringed upon states' Tenth Amendment right to regulate firearms within their own states. Ferguson pointed out, for example, people convicted of domestic abuse are flagged when they attempt to legally buy a gun. Allowing anyone to download and manufacture their own gun circumvents that process, he said. But Wilson told Ars it may be too late, as the files went up last Friday evening -- days before he said he would resume publishing them on August 1.
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20 States Take Aim At 3D Gun Company, Sue To Get Files Off the Internet More

20 States Take Aim At 3D Gun Company, Sue To Get Files Off the Internet

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  • SCOTUS (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Train0987 ( 1059246 ) on Monday July 30, 2018 @04:35PM (#57036130)

    They'll lose in the Supreme Court. This isn't just a Second Amendment issue, it's a First Amendment issue foremost.

    DD's lawyer is going to be famous after this case.

    • This is true. I remember the DECSS code thing and how that worked out... The cows have already left the barn on this one, no need to close the door now.

      BTW.. It's not like it's all that hard to build a gun these days. The only part you need to produce yourself is the receiver, which can be made with the equipment/tools available in any Vocational Education metal shop class. You can legally buy the rest of the parts mail order.

      Yup, you too can own a personally made AK-47, fully automatic, with only one

      • Re:SCOTUS (Score:5, Informative)

        by Train0987 ( 1059246 ) on Monday July 30, 2018 @04:56PM (#57036324)

        You can legally buy 80% completed receivers online now and a novice can finish them with included jig. As it should be.

        • Nice, I didn't know that. Got to love how imaginative folks get about stepping around stupid laws anyway.

      • Half hour with plumbing parts, no tools (Score:5, Informative)

        by raymorris ( 2726007 ) on Monday July 30, 2018 @05:40PM (#57036714) Journal

        You don't even need any "metal shop" tools to make a gun. That just helps to make a better one. My nephew and I assembled one from metal plumbing parts a few days ago. It took about half an hour, with nothing but hand tools.

        Guns have been around since the 1300s, around the same time the hourglass was invented. Which shows they can be built with tools and equipment less advanced than what Columbus had on board the Santa Maria.

        • Re:Half hour with plumbing parts, no tools (Score:4, Informative)

          by scubamage ( 727538 ) on Monday July 30, 2018 @09:27PM (#57038264)
          This is 100% true. My grandfather was a gunsmith. He showed me how you can use a rubber band, a nail, and an old car antenna to make a small calibre zip gun. Like you said, guns have been made from the 1300s. And almost every failure prone part has been engineered away and combined into a modern bullet (wadding, spark, gunpowder, projectile). At this point, most of what a gun does is hold a bullet in place so the primer can get hit by some kind of pin, and point the projectile and gasses somewhere.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by e3m4n ( 947977 )

        as someone who has built AKs and ARs from parts, and has had to build the receiver part; AKs are much more work than ARs for sure. If you mill out the lower receiver of an AR everything else just connects with a simple Armorers wrench and a small torque wrench. For making an AK receiver you need jigs to bend the receiver; a jig to rivet the trigger guard, a jig to rivet the rear trunion and front trunion; a spot welder to attach the rails for the bolt carrier; map gas to heat the drilled holes to heat-treat

    • Re:SCOTUS (Score:4, Informative)

      by Woldscum ( 1267136 ) on Monday July 30, 2018 @05:06PM (#57036446)

      Also VERY IMPORTANT point. If you are legally able to buy/own a firearm (AK, AR, BB gun, Shotgun, Pistol, etc). You are 100% legally able to build yourself one or 100 of them. Just not for sale, must be for your own use. Making a gun for someone else would make you a manufacturer and need a Type 7 FFL. They would need to ban blueprints and STL files of gun receivers too. A CNC milling machine uses "flies from the web" also.

      https://www.atf.gov/firearms/q... [atf.gov]
      ATF FAQs
      Does an individual need a license to make a firearm for personal use?
      No, a license is not required to make a firearm solely for personal use. However, a license is required to manufacture firearms for sale or distribution. The law prohibits a person from assembling a non–sporting semiautomatic rifle or shotgun from 10 or more imported parts, as well as firearms that cannot be detected by metal detectors or x–ray machines. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and advance approval by ATF.

      [18 U.S.C. 922(o), (p) and (r); 26 U.S.C. 5822; 27 CFR 478.39, 479.62 and 479.105]

    • Just put the plans for it into an etherium or bitcoin contract and send yourself ten cents.

    • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Monday July 30, 2018 @06:26PM (#57037084)
      Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • Banned books week (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Hadlock ( 143607 ) on Monday July 30, 2018 @04:40PM (#57036174) Homepage Journal

    Every september libraries have what is called "Banned Books Week"
     
    This is to highlight the problem with banning books and remind everyone that this is a terrible idea.
     
    I think we've firmly established, over and over, that banning books does not work.

    • No need to ban books, just make sure that nobody has the attention span to read them.

    • I think we've firmly established, over and over, that banning books does not work.

      Do inform me when you find a book accurately detailing how to create a nuclear bomb. The FBI would also be interested.

      Some things are kept secret for the good of humanity.

      • Gravis Zero: The Anarchists' Cookbook details how to build many kinds of explosives. No, not nuclear, but it's a heavily litigated example. Attempting to limit its distribution is highly problematic because so much of it covers basic chemistry, and limiting publication would result in government control of who can learn chemistry. Similar arguments have been applied to publication of various physics papers on nuclear physics.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

        > Some things are kept secret for the good

      • Re:Banned books week (Score:5, Interesting)

        by CrimsonAvenger ( 580665 ) on Monday July 30, 2018 @05:21PM (#57036558)

        Do inform me when you find a book accurately detailing how to create a nuclear bomb. The FBI would also be interested.

        "Dire Dawn" by Hildegarde Hernandez? ;-p

        More seriously, a basic fission bomb isn't really all that hard to build. We did it with 1940's tech. Any halfway competent nuclear engineering student should know enough to do the design up...

        The difficulty isn't the design, it's the fissionables. Which you can't buy at the local drug store, contrary to popular rumour. Making Pu-239 requires a major engineering project. Hell, building the reactor to make the Pu-239 is something for billionaires, much less building the reprocessing facility to extract the Pu-239 (without poisoning it with other isotopes that suck up neutrons without producing excess energy)....

        • Re: (Score:3)

          by jythie ( 914043 )
          *nod* which gets into the often hand waved field of industrial engineering. Scaling up to industrial quantities is a whole different bed of nails than producing trace amounts of something in your garage.
      • It's several books and labs, really. You're freely able to take physics in a university. After that you'll need some practical engineering. Getting weapons grade heavy isotopes and maintaining the isotopes in a usable form is another matter. Half lives are very consistent... and are only one of the reasons a nuclear arsenal is so incredibly expensice
    • we do ban some speech. There's the obvious "Shout Fire in a theater" and "Won't someone rid me of this meddlesome priest" examples, but then there's also certain types of pornography. And try ask Julian Assange or Ed Snowden about freedom of speech. E.g. you can't spread state secrets just because it's free speech.

      • There's the obvious "Shout Fire in a theater"

        Falsely. It's "falsely shout fire in a crowded theatre". The "falsely" is important.

  • Unstoppable (Score:5, Insightful)

    by lucasnate1 ( 4682951 ) on Monday July 30, 2018 @04:41PM (#57036182) Homepage

    I am pro gun laws, and yet, my opinions cannot change reality. Just like "pirated" movies and music, there is no way to stop this from being distributed. I

    • Re:Unstoppable (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Train0987 ( 1059246 ) on Monday July 30, 2018 @04:44PM (#57036210)

      notice they aren't suing to remove all the milling plans that have been available on the internet for 20 years. Mills are a lot easier to find than 3D printers.

      I'm also taken aback by the reasoning that felons and domestic abusers can download these plans. There's nothing stopping them from buying privately either, it's still a felony.

      All of this is just more anti-Trump theater by the Democrats in liberal states.

    • Gun laws apply to "printed" guns too

      anyway for less than $150 you can buy a nice new cheap shotgun that (with correct ammo) throws out more projectiles faster than an full auto M16 with standard magazine

      • Or just spend $15 at the hardware store with some 3/4" steel pipe and make your own 12ga. Totally legal.

        • needs some things added to make it convenient gun though, if you're not going to be holding nail and hammer to fire it while your friend points it. having magazine of ammo is even more work.

          face it, the $120 bargain shotgun or .22LR semi-auto rifle is the sweet spot for convenience, safety, reliability.

          probably get those used for $50 I'm guessing

      • And the law, for now, recognizes that you can manufacture your own gun, and the state cannot stop you nor prevent you from possessing it. If you give it away, you are in violation of federal law regarding manufacture for either profit or to distribute, and likewise selling it requires a license as well.

        If you are prohibited from *making* one, you are thereby at risk of being prohibited from *possessing* one. whatever it is. The Second Amendment recognizes the right to have guns in our possession, and states

  • "3D Gun Company" (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 30, 2018 @04:42PM (#57036186)

    Certainly an upgrade from my current 2D gun. Very difficult to aim accurately.

  • They are going to make a lot of money countersuing those states for First and Second Amendment violations.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by DaHat ( 247651 )

      Recall they only got a fraction of their legal costs from the feds in the agreement... and that neither the feds nor the states have any money. It's you and I who will be paying those legal bills.

      -Resident of Washington State

  • This is why banning guns is not the answer (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Jarwulf ( 530523 ) on Monday July 30, 2018 @04:47PM (#57036240)
    As technology marches forward it will become easier and easier to manufacture weapons and a society which uses bans to solve the problem will have to crack down harder and harder upon freedom and liberty to stop people from circumventing those bans. Eventually you'll have to literally be locked down and monitored 24/7. You then have a choice, either you continue to treat people like children hoping in government and authority to protect them from big bad guns forever or accept the risks and inevitable pains and losses and teach people to learn to live with and use these tools like adults.

    • The next step to controlling 3D printed guns is, conveniently enough for our corporate overlords, 3D printer control - brought to you indirectly by Cody Wilson, profesional shit-disturbing deplorable asshat. Mark my words.

    • will have to crack down harder and harder upon freedom and liberty to stop people from circumventing those bans. Eventually you'll have to literally be locked down and monitored 24/7.

      You're talking as if that's not their goal. It is. Of both sides, they've just split up which side cracks down on what in the continuing march towards around the clock monitoring and control; heck a few of the biggest ones like the War on Drugs and Sex Trafficking Hysteria are even bipartisan.

  • I'm not pro-gun or even a gun owner, but I think this lawsuit is idiotic. Diagrams of how to make a workable gun are available in any public library with an encyclopedia or a set of "how it works" books. Any halfway competent machinist with access to some metal stock and pipe could use them to produce a functional, if inelegant (i.e. unrifled) gun.

    • even "good enough" rifling (stabilizes a bullet) can be done by pounding a hand-filed disk of metal, with grooves cut into it at an angle, through a pipe with a rod. a few people on youtube have done it. the angle comes from whatever rate of twist you want, and you can look that up for any common caliber.

      so saying rifling is the difficult thing that stops most homemade firearms from being made really is just an oft-believed meme.

      • That's called the 'button' method. You buy the carbide button at the same time you buy the chamber reamer, don't hand make anything.

  • Printed guns are here. They are freely available. Anyone can make a gun.. They could before also with a little know-how... or just steal one. Fighting this is going to be like fighting movie downloading... It's happening at some level, but most people won't be affected by it. Just deal with it, this is no big deal.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

      Printed guns are here. They are freely available. Anyone can make a gun.. They could before also with a little know-how... or just steal one. Fighting this is going to be like fighting movie downloading... It's happening at some level, but most people won't be affected by it. Just deal with it, this is no big deal.

      Exactly. Now every two-bit power hungry TSA agent manning a security checkpoint has a perfect excuse to ramp up the checking.

      DHS should be all over this as it's a perfect opportunity to enhance th

  • "After almost 18 months I was skeptical that there was anything else that this administration would do that would truly shock me"

    This is a case brought by 20 state governments; which administration is being referred to?

  • Where are the ... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by CaptainDork ( 3678879 )

    ... money grubbers like gun manufacturers and their PAC, the NRA?

    DIY should be an issue like the fucking "right to repair," mess.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by thule ( 9041 )
      There has been a long tradition of making firearms in the US. A friend of mine is a machinist and he was telling me that it is like a right of passage for a machinist to make a simple firearm.

      Why would you assume that the NRA is a manufacturing PAC? The power of the NRA is people and lots of them.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by mishehu ( 712452 )
      I'd suggest that this is a very futile attempt by these states, and will have no effect. Thus there's no need for the NRA or other groups that are pro-2A to be involved. The states' attempt is as futile as the Federal gov't's was regarding classification of encryption algos as armaments as well. Once it's found to be protected under the 1A, that's pretty much it.

      • My query has nothing to do with #1A or #2A.

        It's about money.

        Why in simple hell do I need Ruger, S&W, Kahr, others, when I can make that shit at home?

        We both know what technology does -- it's disruptive -- and it gets better as the years go by.

        Gun manufacturing can go the way of film for photography.

  • Prior Restraint of Expression? (Score:4, Informative)

    by Artagel ( 114272 ) on Monday July 30, 2018 @04:52PM (#57036282) Homepage

    I think that Washington's attorney general is confusing the right to publish with being responsible for what you publish. It is extremely hard to restrain speech in the U.S. prior to publication.

    The Pentagon Papers were relevant to national security and there could not be prior restraint on publishing those. https://legal-dictionary.thefr... [thefreedictionary.com]

    Some state attorney generals willies about someone 3D printing a gun isn't even close to a national security issue. Stopping the information from being posted until a final adjudication should be nigh-on impossible.

    • The Washington AG appears to be confused about a lot of things. Starting with:

      ... also infringed upon states' Tenth Amendment right to regulate firearms within their own states.

      There is no such right. It is perfectly obvious that any such state regulation would be in direct violation of the Second Amendment. As applied to the distribution of design information, as in this case, the proposed regulations would also be in direct violation of the First Amendment. Fortunately for everyone the First Amendment tends to be enforced fairly strictly, though the courts have a distressing tendency to look the other

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Khyber ( 864651 )

      http://www.andrewkaram.com/pdf... [andrewkaram.com]

      United States v. Progressive, Inc - a fight to publish how to make a thermonuclear weapon. Progressive WON, US dropped the case, Nuclear Weapon magazine published 1979.

      Prior Restraint would've been wiped out entirely had the United States not dropped its case.

  • Welcome to the future. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by HeckRuler ( 1369601 ) on Monday July 30, 2018 @04:56PM (#57036316)

    Frankly, it is terrifying... We think that it is important to put a stop to this right away and make it as difficult as humanly possible to access this information

    Yeah, I hear ya. But the thing about information is that it's REALLY hard to stop it from spreading. And this isn't super top-notch secret information that only a handful of people have. Anyone with a bit of time and some free software can make their own, and then go one to share it through any avenue available in this modern ultra-connected digital world.

    You're simply not going to be able to police this. It's outside the scope of what you can control.

    Any attempts to illegalize it will either be laughably unenforceable or boil down to cops raiding places for what amounts to thought-crime (which will run afoul of bigger laws, namely the 1st and 4th amendments to the constitution). So we, collectively, need to get ready for a world where nearly anyone with a bit of cash to spare (like $50), will have access to firearms. Really shitty firearms at the moment, but that's probably going to get better.

    • er no, these guns cost more than $50

      for just over $100 you can *legally* have a working new semi-auto .22LR gun that is ok in quality. Pne hollow point bullet head shot from it will kill a deer, human, dog, etc.

      or for just over $100 you can buy a break-action shotgun, and not even worry about hitting the targets head

      why bother to print one? why the fear of printed ones? just a gun.

  • Even if they succeed - they will fail. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by MindPrison ( 864299 ) on Monday July 30, 2018 @04:57PM (#57036342) Journal

    Because "Internet", information wants to be free. Sure, you can cover everything on the surface, but the more "secret" the information is, the more popular it will become, and the more people will attempt to copy and distribute, and print it.

    Next thing will probably be outlawing 3D printers.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by Jodka ( 520060 )

      Next thing will probably be outlawing 3D printers.

      If they treat it like paper printers then it will be government-mandated watermarking [eff.org]. From the EFF:

      ...all major manufacturers of color laser printers entered a secret agreement with governments to ensure that the output of those printers is forensically traceable.

      It appears likely that all recent commercial color laser printers print some kind of forensic tracking codes...

  • My Hippie-Dippie Opinion (Score:5, Insightful)

    by TheDarkener ( 198348 ) on Monday July 30, 2018 @05:01PM (#57036374) Homepage

    It'd be awesome to try to tackle the problem of people wanting to kill each other in cold blood in the United States. You know, maybe try to foster a culture that values human life.

    Oh wait, that goes against killing people in *other* countries though. Nevermind, that'll never work.

  • A Declaration of the Independence of Cyberspace
    by John Perry Barlow

    Governments of the Industrial World, you weary giants of flesh and steel, I come from Cyberspace, the new home of Mind. On behalf of the future, I ask you of the past to leave us alone. You are not welcome among us. You have no sovereignty where we gather.

    We have no elected government, nor are we likely to have one, so I address you with no greater authority than that with which liberty itself always speaks. I declare the global social space

  • How many rights can we violate in a single idea?

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • >"the Washington attorney general argued that the State Department settlement violated the Administrative Procedure Act and also infringed upon states' Tenth Amendment right to regulate firearms within their own states."

    That is a pretty weak cry. In the Bills of Rights, the 10th says "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people" (and we know how much THAT is followed already). As an asi

    • And the 1st amendment that people have the right to know how to make weapons. You have been able to buy gunsmithing books and machinery tools since ever.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Ichijo ( 607641 )

      In any case the 10th doesn't overturn the 2nd. It says "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" That is a specifically listed Constitutional right of the PEOPLE, not the Fed, not the States.

      Please quote the entire 2nd amendment, like this:

      "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

      As you can see, it puts the right to keep and bear arms within the context of a well-regulat

  • These files have been floating around the net in various archives since they had been initially released. Last time I went looking I found them in an archive containing far worse than the files I was looking for.

    Trying to say they are unavailable online only makes the download links multiply.

    Anybody who wants these files already has them. All this does is make said files harder to collaborate on and share throughout the firearm and 3d printing community.

    It's as if half the population forgot that some people

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by PPH ( 736903 )

      All this does is make said files harder to collaborate on and share throughout the firearm and 3d printing community.

      Not really. 3D printing plans have been easily available for a few years. CNC files for traditional metal milled parts, even longer.

      This is purely a First Amendment issue. Defense Distributed is putting these files up as a statement to the effect that this stuff is here, anyone who wants one can build one and, although state might think they have a right to regulate firearms ownership, they effectively have no ability to do so. It's like Prohibition, or outlawing the possession of pot (Washington State, I'

  • This will not go far (Score:3)

    by rickb928 ( 945187 ) on Monday July 30, 2018 @05:23PM (#57036572) Homepage Journal

    "In this new 20-state initiative, the Washington attorney general argued that the State Department settlement violated the Administrative Procedure Act and also infringed upon states’ Tenth Amendment right to regulate firearms within their own states. Ferguson pointed out, for example, people convicted of domestic abuse are flagged when they attempt to legally buy a gun. Allowing anyone to download and manufacture their own gun circumvents that process, he said."

    Oh dear. Imagine the problems dealing with 'people convicted of domestic abuse' or merely accused of this, if they already have a gun and hide it from the authorities. No, dear, you cannot be sure of preventing that, and you'll also take their cars, knives, and hand tools. Or not, and be shocked.

    This is not a Tenth Amendment issue. That reserves to the States or the People powers not otherwise delegated. And the Second Amendment recognized the People as having the right to own guns. This suit should be spanked and sent off without dessert.

  • Information wants to be free! Unless it's about guns or something.

  • Defense distributed could lose every single court case and they still won't stop 3d printed guns.

    The gun control movement has turned into the drug war. You're trying to ban marijuana and backyard booze again.

    All gun control regimes rely on controlling industrial production choke points. When those choke points don't exist those regimes are impotent.

    The whole gun debate is as over at this point as the drug control debate. I suspect the advocates will have to die of old age just as with the drug control advoc

  • First off I'll point out that one lawsuit like this by a trio of anti-2A activists has already been tossed. So I'm somewhat curious if this will be thrown out as well. http://thehill.com/regulation/... [thehill.com]

    But more towards my; this may end up being a really stupid move by the state's that are pushing them. Every state with a gun control law that steps outside of what has been passed on the Federal level have used the 10th amendment as a justification for additional arms prohibition. Right now the case for re

  • You mean Bob Ferguson, ain't no Bill Ferguson listed anywhere as an Attorney General for Washington.

    Nice job on editing, editors. Not.

  • I have no use for the files but if someone says they want to remove them from the internet I'm downloading them. FYI, the link is currently DDoS. Presumably, everyone else is getting them too.

  • This is going to sound a bit critical so let me preface it by stating that Cody Wilson is an interesting guy and I endorse Defense Distributed.

    That said, Defense Distributed is really a political rhetorical tactic; Nobody is actually firing rounds and their oppressors from 3D printed guns. Fundamentally, freely publishing gun blueprints is a clever strategy to force Democrats into a corner, compelling them to choose between either of two undesirable options: allowing gun rights or opposing free speech r

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