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Intel Hardware

Laptop Vendors Are Left Sitting On the Sidelines Waiting For the Next Waltz To Start (pcper.com) 87

Posted by msmash from the up-next dept.
An anonymous reader shares a report: Intel's delayed release of a new processor is going to have a noticeable effect on the laptop market this year. As there is little chance of seeing anything new until towards the end of this year, laptop designers will not be able to offer new models for the holidays and will instead have to rework existing products. DigiTimes suggests we will see trimmed down models with lower price tags to try to entice consumers into purchasing something, as they expect lower demand than we saw last year. Hopefully some gaming machines may become more affordable, or we will start to see models incorporating AMD's new chips become more common.
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Laptop Vendors Are Left Sitting On the Sidelines Waiting For the Next Waltz To Start More

Laptop Vendors Are Left Sitting On the Sidelines Waiting For the Next Waltz To Start

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  • One wish list (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward

    My wish list would be:

    1) Ryzen processor.
    2) long battery life
    3) AMD graphics (plays nice with free software)
    4) sweet price point

    Other stuff like SSD and generously expandable memory go without saying.

    I have Intel fatigue. I'm tick-tocked out.

  • They're priced too high for the performance. I'm seeing them in the $600-$800 range, which puts them in competition with mobile GTA 1050s (albeit not the TI); but even then they get trounced by a 1050 unless you're talking the Vega/Intel hybrid floating around, and that one's only showing up on machines in the $1200 range, which gets you into 1060 mobile territory if you shop around.

    They do have really nice TDP, but only if you're gaming on a battery and I don't know a lot of folks who do that. Most lap

    • https://www3.lenovo.com/us/en/... [lenovo.com]

      Someone above linked that. for the price its a decent computer. I love my Ryzen. I have a binned(by myself) chip though.

      • because I looked up a review and they were running Street Fighter V in 720p/low spec mode and not getting a consistent 60. I'm not even sure if Capcom will let you play online with that. A mobile 1050 will run it in 1080p normal mode (SFV only has to 2 modes, low spec and regular). The 1050 based laptop will usually cost more but if you shop around I've seen them for less (Costco had one for $600 not to long ago, but I think they were clearing them out).

  • Intel should pull a card from Nvidia's playbook and simply rebrand last years processors with a new number.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward
      They've been doing that since sandy bridge.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Intel should pull a card from Nvidia's playbook and simply rebrand last years processors with a new number.

      They already are. See the i7-8086K [anandtech.com] for one such example.

  • My old laptop is just fine (Score:3)

    by sinij ( 911942 ) on Wednesday June 27, 2018 @02:24PM (#56855394)
    My i7 Haswell based laptop is within 95% performance of a comparably priced brand new machine. Only one still works, after keyboard was replaced under extended warranty. It is now on third battery. Why would I bother upgrading?

    • Good question, why would you? In the mean time most people don't have an i7 Haswell based laptop.

      Speaking of quoting magical numbers, I have an i5 Haswell based laptop. It's slow as heck. The performance of the device hasn't been related to the processor in it for a long time for many designs. Your processor is 95% as fast as a modern one? Congradulations. Mine is too, for about 15 seconds, and then it sits there alternating between thermal throttling and TPD throttling states which the entire Haswell serie

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by sinij ( 911942 )
        Obviously, if I am forced to upgrade I would.

        However, I really don't like laptops that are being offered today. Most of them went for miniaturization, it is hard to get something like what I have. For some reason underlying assumption by laptop manufacturers that people want smaller laptops. I personally don't.

        • Obviously, if I am forced to upgrade I would.

          However, I really don't like laptops that are being offered today.

          I think that is the point of the entire article. .... Not necessarily design point of view, but from a technology point of view. Personally I would be pissed if I were forced to upgrade to something old.

          Also I get your sentiment. We really need more variety in laptops. Personally for me the thinner and lighter the better (hence I'm stuck with a thermally throttling thing). But where there is a market for something beefier that should really be filled. The problem is lots of people do want small, light, thin

  • With very few exceptions Intel has been basically selling the same performance for years.

  • Laptop vendors are can do more than new CPUs... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by ctilsie242 ( 4841247 ) on Wednesday June 27, 2018 @02:38PM (#56855480)

    Laptop vendors can do more than new CPUs to bring some usefulness and features. Being able to have an OS in ROM would be handy, if only to have a way to restore an OS without having to worry about recovery media. If a Tandy MS-DOS clone back in the 1980s can do this, so can a PC vendor. Other things come to mind as well, be it the ability to charge (albeit slowly) on USB-C for beefier laptops, allowing for multiple USB chargers to charge a battery at the same time, built in vitualization and encryption so one can have their gaming stuff, their work stuff, personal stuff, and stuff nobody should see, all on one laptop, perhaps using something like PhonebookFS to further hide the presence of other VMs.

    Another idea would be to have better support for external GPU breakout boxes. That way, one can go from running command line stuff to Crysis fairly easily, as well as providing fast access to additional storage.

    CPUs are nice, but there are still many things that can be done to differentiate one's product from everyone else.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Sique ( 173459 )
      How do you patch an OS in ROM, after someone found a way to remotely activate your ROM OS and has free reign over your computer?

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Anonymous Coward

        How do you patch an OS in ROM, after someone found a way to remotely activate your ROM OS and has free reign over your computer?

        Make it a socketed PROM so you can swap it out with a new one.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Sique ( 173459 )
          How many ROM changes will the socket survive? And how many people will void the warranty by opening the case and switch the ROM?

          • How many ROM changes will the socket survive?

            More if they don't use a shitty one.

            And how many people will void the warranty by opening the case and switch the ROM?

            Irrelevant. People void their warranties anyway.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AHuxley ( 892839 )
        The new ROM on a chip could be sent out with the mail and replaced as a chip in the computer. It was just a chip.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Agripa ( 139780 )

        How do you patch an OS in ROM, after someone found a way to remotely activate your ROM OS and has free reign over your computer?

        There are many ways ROMs were patched in the past but the common way now is to patch after copying into shadow RAM which is normally done anyway for performance.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

      be it the ability to charge (albeit slowly) on USB-C for beefier laptops, allowing for multiple USB chargers to charge a battery at the same time

      A number of laptops already support charging by USB-C - some in fact don't have an AC adapter port anymore - they change exclusively by USB-C using USB-PD. And by many, I'm not saying Apple - but Lenovos and Dells too. Also, not slower - USB-PD supports up to 100W, and most adapters easily do 60W which is more than sufficient to charge and run the laptop.

      Another id

    • you get calls on it. Even if they're simple calls they're still calls. External GPUs are still in their infancy so they only show up on really expensive laptops where support costs can be baked into the cost of the laptop. A CPU upgrade doesn't add call volume to your help desk, making it a cheap and easy way to sell new laptops.

    • Laptop vendors can do more than new CPUs to bring some usefulness and features.

      I agree with your point. I disagree with most of your examples.

      Being able to have an OS in ROM would be handy, if only to have a way to restore an OS without having to worry about recovery media.

      You'd need MS to agree to what basically amounts to shipping whatever the current slipstream build at the time of manufacture onto an internal MicroSD card. I mean, okay, but with them turning Windows into an OS Reinstall every six months, I see a ROM-based solution as being difficult to solve in practice.

      If a Tandy MS-DOS clone back in the 1980s can do this, so can a PC vendor.

      Tandy's MS-DOS clone was about 200kbytes that basically didn't change and used very rudimentary commands to interface with hardware. Literally

      • thunderbolt 3 is pretty standard at this point in time for eGPU's.

        And, I might sound like a bit of a fanboy, but it's nice having a relatively light laptop I can lug around while traveling or whatnot, but when gaming I can hook it up to an eGPU and get pretty good performance. (roughly 80% of the desktop performance for a given card)

        Granted it's cheaper to just go with a desktop; but in my case I already had a spare 970gtx and a laptop with TB3 -- so an extra 250ish for the eGPU box wasn't that big of a str

    • Being able to have an OS in ROM would be handy, if only to have a way to restore an OS without having to worry about recovery media.

      Not sure what you're getting at here. In my MS Surface, the Windows 10 "restore" is in a partition on an SSD that's soldered to the motherboard. If I do a factory reset it comes back to the base image. No recovery disk. I hear you on the OS in ROM - That goes back to my TRS-80 Model 1 (although if you had a "floppy drive" then the TRS-DOS OS loaded from that), but I'm un

    • Laptop vendors can do more than new CPUs to bring some usefulness and features.

      Yes, they can stop thermally throttling the previous generation by making the laptop 1mm thicker doubling the size of the heatsink for a huge speed boost.

      Being able to have an OS in ROM would be handy, if only to have a way to restore an OS without having to worry about recovery media.

      This confuses me. How often do you do this? Personally I don't want them wasting R&D money on something that is only a minor inconvenience every few years. Seriously a USB stick works fine for a recovery media.

      built in vitualization and encryption so one can have their gaming stuff, their work stuff, personal stuff, and stuff nobody should see

      This sounds good but I don't see this as the job of the hardware vendor. The last thing I want is those idiots shipping more bloated piece of cr

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by mjwx ( 966435 )

      Laptop vendors can do more than new CPUs to bring some usefulness and features. Being able to have an OS in ROM would be handy, if only to have a way to restore an OS without having to worry about recovery media. If a Tandy MS-DOS clone back in the 1980s can do this, so can a PC vendor. Other things come to mind as well, be it the ability to charge (albeit slowly) on USB-C for beefier laptops, allowing for multiple USB chargers to charge a battery at the same time, built in vitualization and encryption so one can have their gaming stuff, their work stuff, personal stuff, and stuff nobody should see, all on one laptop, perhaps using something like PhonebookFS to further hide the presence of other VMs.

      Another idea would be to have better support for external GPU breakout boxes. That way, one can go from running command line stuff to Crysis fairly easily, as well as providing fast access to additional storage.

      CPUs are nice, but there are still many things that can be done to differentiate one's product from everyone else.

      The issue is that adding all of that adds weight. Now You may be thinking that this race to make things thinner and lighter is a bad idea but if that is the case you never had a laptop in 2005 when they were huge bulky monstrosities that weighted 5KG. This isn't an exaggeration. The reason most people had desktops back then is that laptops weren't much smaller or lighter.

      I've got a 8 yr old 30L backpack I use as carry on luggage. When I bought it I had a 14" Lenovo that would barely fit inside, my curren

  • I'm still running a Core 2 Duo Laptop from 2006. It had a T5500 (1.67 GHz 2MB Cache) which I upgraded to a T7400 (2.17 GHz, 4MB cache) a few years back as the chip was $4.00 used.

    I basically only browse, watch Netflix/YT, or do light office style work on that machine. If I'm doing any "real" work I'm using my desktop with a much more powerful CPU, 32 GB RAM, and triple monitor setup.

    Laptops are only useful for light tasks, why replace it if it still does what's asked of it?

  • No reason to upgrade (Score:4)

    by Locke2005 ( 849178 ) on Wednesday June 27, 2018 @03:55PM (#56855966)
    Intel seems to assume customers want MORE CORES at a lower clock rate. No, I want a faster clock rate using less power!

    • No what you want is a unicorn. Intel just know that they don't exist.

      You can offer more cores to increase multithreadding performance without an associated hit in battery life. You can't do the same by ramping up clock speed.

      As a matter of interest, what are you doing these days that doesn't benefit from multi-threadding?

    • Intel seems to assume customers want MORE CORES at a lower clock rate. No, I want a faster clock rate using less power!

      That is actually what Intel has been doing up until a year ago. They capped highest number of cores for their consumer level CPU to 4. To get more cores, you need to shell out more to get Xeon workstation CPUs. They only recently give you more cores when AMD introduces Ryzen.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Unfortunately the laws of physics won't allow Intel to give you faster clock speeds at lower power until they really sort out their next generation fabrication process, and even then the improvement won't be dramatic.

      More cores are the way to go for low power performance. It's just taking software a while to catch up.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Agripa ( 139780 )

      Intel seems to assume customers want MORE CORES at a lower clock rate. No, I want a faster clock rate using less power!

      Unfortunately that is incompatible with power density limited designs which are scaled to smaller feature sizes. Intel would have to use a *larger* die to achieve a lower thermal resistance which directly increases cost.

  • Where the F is my Power9 laptop?!?! (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward

    I am getting really sick of all this closed hardware designed for toys being used in my professional tools!

  • Fucking Intel Monopoly (Score:3, Interesting)

    by brxndxn ( 461473 ) on Wednesday June 27, 2018 @07:31PM (#56856870)

    While AMD is absolutely kicking ass - especially when you consider its market cap compared to Intel or Nvidia - I see an industry that is plagued with implied 'tit for tat' arrangements unwilling to piss off Intel.

    We're seeing all sorts of 'bargain-bin' consumer laptops with AMD processors - but we're really not seeing business-grade laptops available at all using AMD. The industry knows Intel is basically stuck in the mud and AMD has it beat for a while. Meanwhile, no one dares build a laptop with such business essential items like a docking station, durable build, and customization.

    In any other industry, we'd see tons of new high-end models if the competition got better. In this industry, we see laptops limited by the unwillingness of the industry to build what everyone wants. Remember when Steve Jobs was so damn disruptive with the Ipod? He basically just built what everyone wanted at the time while the music industry (and players like Sony) refused to build anything with mp3 for an embarrassingly long time. I wonder how long it will take until someone is disruptive in this space.

    I can't wait to upgrade my 3 year old Macbook Pro.. but there is nothing available right now that beats it across the board. I don't want to 'upgrade' to a bigger heavier laptop. Nor do I want it to have less resolution or battery life. I want what everyone upgrading a laptop wants - more processing power, more cores, more memory, hard drive space, speed, etc..

  • Moore's Law is already dead. We're now just seeing the effect it has on the market. Sure, things are made cheaper with more mass production, but without any real advancement, we may be stuck in a technological plateau.

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