Intel Wants PCs To Be More Than Just 'Personal Computers' (engadget.com) 180
An anonymous reader shares a report "What people need from a PC, what they expect is really more diverse than ever," Intel's Client Computing head Gregory Bryant said in an interview. "We're going to embark on a journey to transform the PC from a personal computer to a personal contribution platform... The platform where people focus and can do their most meaningful work." Bryant says Intel will focus on five key areas to reframe its vision of PCs: Uncompromised performance (of course); improved connectivity with 5G on the horizon; a dramatic increase in battery life; developing more adaptable platforms that go beyond 2-in-1s and convertibles; and a push towards more intelligent machines with AI and machine learning integration. Admittedly, many of those points aren't exactly new for Intel, and they also fall in line with where the computing industry is going.
They are (Score:4)
Re: They are (Score:2, Insightful)
Phones aren't really PCs. They're too locked down to be used for developing software. Which was the whole point of PCs...not having to go wait in line and buy mainframe time.
Let's face it, computers in most hands are just another boob tube.
Re: They are (Score:2, Insightful)
Phones aren't really PCs. They're too locked down to be used for developing software.
A) Phone's are nothing more than tiny ARM PC's with built-in screens, and...
B) How the fuck does the "locked down nature" of a typical phone - an irrelevant point to the discussion, anyhow - prevent you from using it to write code??
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Writing anything beyond a 20 character script to update a Raspberry Pi from my phone is an exercise in frustration. I refuse to write even Hello World on my phone. I have a Desktop or Laptop for that.
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A) Phone's are nothing more than tiny ARM PC's with built-in screens
There was a time where if it didn't run Windows on an Intel core it wasn't called a PC at all. There was a whole company who claimed that their products were different to PCs, I think their products were called Justin Long, or maybe that was just an actor pretending to be their product, can't remember.
Point is: Go to a random person in the street and ask them what a PC is, I will bet you a Mars bar no one points to your phone. It may be your personal device which can compute, but a PC it ain't.
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Have you even tried? Occasionally my Linux desktop goes all Helen Keller and I use JuiceSSH to log in & kill whatever's causing it. Even that - thirty characters total, taking two minutes at most - is painful on the itty bitty screen and virtual keyboard, but I'm too lazy to walk 20 feet to the lounge and do it from my wife's lappie or get mine out & fire it up.
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How the fuck does the "locked down nature" of a typical phone - an irrelevant point to the discussion, anyhow - prevent you from using it to write code
Tell me, Mr. Andersonwhat good is a phone callif you're unable to speak?
Apple doesn't allow you to installer a compiler on your phone. Ergo, you can't write code that involves a compiler. I suppose you could backdoor the whole thing -- but it's also really annoying to write anything long (let alone code) on a touch screen keyboard.
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Most personal computer usage was never used for software development.
For the most part the old PCs wern't used to compile software. Yes they had BASIC, mostly because of a lack of software options. But Early PCs were used mostly for things like Games, home/office tools and word processors.
Back in them olden days, if you were doing anything serious with a computer you would have a Mainframe or at least a Mini-computer.
Phones/Tablets are actually filling the PC's traditional roles. Today's PC's are now more
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You mean run Unix?
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Phones aren't really PCs.
They are small portable pocket sized personal computers.
They're too locked down to be used for developing software.
Yours maybe, not mine.
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You could say the same thing about desktop computers, yet they're still also PCs.
I think a phone is every bit as much a personal computer as a desktop computer is. They're lame personal computers (e.g. shitty keyboard among other limitations), but hey, they fit in your pocket. Most people basically do the same things with them as they do with desktops.
Re:They are (Score:5, Insightful)
Honestly, the area of the market they need to develop is the integrated home PC.
A modular system, wired into the home that enables 3rd parties to develop home technologies. I don't need every device in my home to be connected to the internet - I need them to connect to my home system and be managed locally. My PC should be my home's cloud and every "smart device" should just be a control board & dumb display that get fed data from applications/services running on the PC.
Re:They are (Score:5, Insightful)
Honestly, the area of the market they need to develop is the integrated home PC.
A modular system, wired into the home that enables 3rd parties to develop home technologies. I don't need every device in my home to be connected to the internet - I need them to connect to my home system and be managed locally. My PC should be my home's cloud and every "smart device" should just be a control board & dumb display that get fed data from applications/services running on the PC.
The trouble is that those vendors are not going to give you what you want. As vendors, they need to harvest your data. They also need to have a backdoor into your device for reason... Therefore your device needs to connect back to the mothership.
TFS:
and a push towards more intelligent machines with AI and machine learning integration
This makes me nervous. Will this serve me or the vendor?
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The whole point of this is to keep the data at home and cut out the vendor. It doesn't work without open source AI including automated machine learning.
The open source community needs to come together and create an AI system that competes with the best and learns from its everyday users and the data they feed it without the help of an expert. That is the only way we can both enjoy the advances that AI assistants can bring to our lives and free our data from the vendors.
Of course, even if that happens, it is
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The open source community needs to come together
HAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHAAHAHAHAHHHAHHHHAAAAAA!!!!!!
Ow, it hurts! Stop it!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHHHHOHOHOHOHOHOHHHOHHO!!!!
Come together to write an AI platform?!? HOW many Linux Distros are there?!?!?
That's the best laugh I've had all year!
Re:They are (Score:5, Insightful)
Like webnut said, gone are the days when someone would sell you a product. Now everyone is just using products as bait in order to hook a recurring revenue stream. They could make things that work 'stand-alone' but it's so much more profitable to make it go through the middle-man....with them being the middle man.
That being said, is there an indie/homegrown market for home automation? Is it all just Raspberry Pi based stuff? Are their light-bulbs that will work on my internal network? Is there a remote door lock system that listens on my own IP address and not routed through a server on the internet?
I think their are. The first security camera flaws were poorly secured little web-servers in the cameras themselves weren't they? But at least they had to come to my house to hack me..rather than hacking everyone all at once by hitting the server.
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When I had a Palm IIIxe I thought, what a marvelous device! This is certainly the future, I can put all my information in here, bring it with me and access it whenever I want; if only the interface was better. Then along came touch screens, and stupidly, I got an iPod touch. The first app I tried needed a login to some website. The second app needed a login to some website. Every app I tried needed a login to some website. I thought to myself, why do I need a website run by someone I don't know that is who knows where, in who knows what country, to do what my Palm could do with a docking device.
Funny. Out of the over 100 Apps I have on my iPhone and iPad, I can only name a few that "have to log on to a website". A lot of them DISPLAY ad-stuff that probably comes from a web-server, and stuff like Weather Apps can ONLY work by pulling data from some server somewhere (since my iPhone doesn't have Doppler RADAR capabilities); but I am pretty sure most, if not all of them would still work if my internet service was down.
Try again, Hater.
What kind of Apps are you Running, anyway?
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That being said, is there an indie/homegrown market for home automation?
Most smart devices can function without phoning home though updates would still require it.
There are several open source central servers in development that can run at home and control these. Here is an article that reviews some. [opensource.com]
However, all of these seem to be requiring the users to memorize special control phrases. There doesn't seem to be any effort to create a deep neural network based open source assistant that recognizes users an
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Honestly, I don't even need the voice aspect of it.
I need things like my clocks to update after a power outage/not having to reset my alarms. My coffee maker to be linked to that alarm + an offset. Power controls to turn off lighting from the bedroom and auto-disconnect circuits with phantom loads. Adjusting the blinds for optimal passive solar.
Things that save me time and having to remember to do them. Those are the most important, then the other aspect is just having dumb screens/speakers. I don't wa
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They may need to be human sacrifices if you really want rid of the crap.
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The two most popular IoT wireless protocols (Zigbee & ZWave) are proprietary requiring 20k+ licensing fee's to make your own devices. There are some emulation libraries for WiFi devices (Like the Phillips Hue & WeMo) but are not 100% compatible with smart home hubs (Like Amazons ECHO V2 for example). There are open source wireless protocols that use the same frequencies as Zigbee but none of the smart home hubs support them unfortunately.
Z-Wave is proprietary, but Zigbee has open source software and hardware options.
You can use a Z-wave/Zigbee/WiFi controller hub like the VeraPlus and cut off it's ability to "phone home." While built on OpenWRT Barrier Breaker it's still proprietary, but more hackable and controllable than the others.
There is also work being done Rasberry Pi replacements for the Vera using projects projects like OpenLuup:
https://github.com/akbooer/ope... [github.com]
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Honestly, the area of the market they need to develop is the integrated home PC.
A modular system, wired into the home that enables 3rd parties to develop home technologies. I don't need every device in my home to be connected to the internet - I need them to connect to my home system and be managed locally. My PC should be my home's cloud and every "smart device" should just be a control board & dumb display that get fed data from applications/services running on the PC.
I'm with you on that! Well stated!!!
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My wife wanted a separate tablet to run unsafe apps on, and the one we bought was only 5% more than the cheapest one. I was surprised when it arrived and had an "intel inside" sticker. I'd have gone with the cheaper one if I had realized, but too late now!
It's a total dog, I'm so glad it wasn't a primary-device purchase!
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PCs are more than just 'Personal Computers.' They are phones and all kinds of devices...
Sure, if you pedantically separate the term "personal" and "computer" into it's core components and apply it to everything you own that computes then yes. Back in the real world a PC has a widely accepted definition that sure as heck has nothing to do with your mobile phone or any other kind of device.
improved connectivity (Score:3)
Re:improved connectivity (Score:5, Insightful)
I honestly don't want anything they're selling up there except uncompromised performance. I want to see larger DRAM capacity and more I/O bandwidth, on a larger range of their product portfolio than it presently has.
I've got a smart-phone, I don't want it to be my laptop or desktop, nor vice versa.
Re:improved connectivity (Score:4)
It would do my heart well if they'd just fix their processors so that they're immune from predictability attacks, rather than trying to distract the world with their latest PR shenanigans.
WTF, Intel? Can we even trust you? EVERY ONE OF YOUR CPUs made in the past decade is abusable. FIX THAT FIRST.
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In all fairness. If javascript wasn't being JIT compiled for extra performance, this would not have been remote read of everything by every browser on the planet with scripting enabled.
As it is, the fixes will probably mostly work for things like OS management of processes but exporting that level of access to every website you visit, that's really bad.
Marketing just figured out how to say... (Score:2, Insightful)
They want PCs to be PCs?
Because that is what it reads as.
Then you read 'always on 5G connectivity' and it becomes Big Brothers Little Helper instead.
I can always go for more battery life, but going for always connected insecurity is out of security budget.
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Right, they're saying, in the old days the software was locked to what type of CPU and related technologies you had, that was your "platform." Then things shifted so that platform meant middleware. Then they got rid of most of the middleware and pushed things into portable client-side javascript.
And so now Intel wants to shift the concept of "platform" back to the PC, and the only new thing they could find that would make it seem reasonable is AI that would need special local hardware resources to lock you
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I certainly do NOT want " improved connectivity".
exactly:
https://popularresistance.org/... [popularresistance.org]
https://meltdownattack.com/ [meltdownattack.com]
How about some "improved security".
Not that we can really blame Intel when every single web browser developer decided to JIT compile their javascript and rely on obscure processor features for their only security because the bunny MUST dance faster!
But embedded Wifi KVM in every CPU. That brilliance falls squarely on Intel.
GTFO then..... (Score:3)
We're going to embark on a journey
Too much marketing speak (Score:3)
Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster, that was marketing loaded statement. How about Intel gets back to doing Intel things, building great chips. Cut the marketing talk and do the engineering walk.
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Don't forget - fix the fucking design issues that make us vulnerable to Meltdown and Spectre.
Re:Too much marketing speak (Score:4)
No can do, it goes against "uncompromised performance".
uh (Score:5, Interesting)
What does the CPU maker have to do with all that?
Just execute the instructions, thanks. Oh, and don't give things access to the memory that shouldn't have it. Thanks again.
Intel makes chipsets & graphics cards (Score:2)
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Because if Intel didn't try to push the envelope, no one would.
PC OEMs (outside of Apple) have long had a case of tunnel vision. They're stuck in the next-quarter mindset, so they'll double-down on whatever is selling well at this instant, and rarely put serious money into developing new concepts. They're the 21st century equivalent of Henry Ford believing that all Model Ts should be black.
As a result, it's fallen to Intel to do a lot of the development and
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The Intel CPU already predicted he would thank them.
Intel killing ability to choose best in breed :] (Score:2)
Is that you billg
"We have to make sure that Office documents very well depends on PROPRIETARY IE capabilities" billg [slated.org]
"I have a critical meeting with Intel a week from Wednesday.
We need more pci-e lanes on the desktop and higher (Score:4, Informative)
We need more pci-e lanes on the desktop and high end gaming systems.
AMD has more on both and on there high end gaming / workstations chips all cpus have the same number of lanes. Unlike the intel ones where min cpu cost is $1000 just to get the same number lanes that can $350-$500 chip used to have.
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We need more pci-e lanes on the desktop and high end gaming systems.
And what if most of the public don't use high end gaming systems? Why would they need more pci-e lanes? AMD and Intel both have to sell the the general public more than the high end gamer.
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The "general public" can use high end 486 chips or Atom processors. They'll never notice the difference.
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We need more pci-e lanes on the desktop and high end gaming systems.
AMD has more on both and on there high end gaming / workstations chips all cpus have the same number of lanes. Unlike the intel ones where min cpu cost is $1000 just to get the same number lanes that can $350-$500 chip used to have.
AMD also has ECC. Intel would rather play games and intentionally withhold it to upsell Xeon.
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AMD also has ECC.
Which is of interest to whom? No seriously unless your bank is verifying your house purchase transaction using a Core i5, what benefit is there in ECC RAM for an average user, I mean other than having lighter wallets and less performance?
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It's so bad, that
Ahh but is it. For all the theoretical work that has been done on the topic the impact has been what in real terms of reliability? Where are the buildings falling down, the money disappearing from accounts? Where's the physics simulations gone wrong, or the random data corruption? Where are the reliability problems when serving up content? Where are the lockups and crashes of our devices? Where is the detrimental impact to our communication?
You see, it's so bad that companies who handle truly critical data
It's dead, Jim. (Score:3)
And you know it.
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+1
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Elop's burning platform memo was not openness, it was not excessive honesty -- it was sabotage. [blogs.com]
The memo was full of lies. Symbian was still the market leader, massively profitable, and it was expected to remain like that for years, even with Android encroaching. Nokia still had time to work on MeeGo, their situation was not desperate. Except that stupid memo caused the sudden collapse of their smartphone business.
It is obvious now: Elop thought this would force a move to Windows Phone. Because that was his
Still waiting on the phone "dock" to be ubiquitous (Score:4, Interesting)
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Seems to make the most sense to me: phone + high-quality KVM experience = what 99% of the population wants.
This *almost* exists now just leave a bluetooth mouse/keyboard and Chromecast with hdmi monitor where ever you want to use your phone "full screen." It's the Apps and GUI that aren't there.
It certainly makes sense to just use your phone. But the platforms that be (iOS and Android) have not evolved there yet.
A phone with a SnapDragon 845, 8G RAM and 128GB of storage certainly has the necessary horsepower.
They need to be cuddly (Score:2)
Learn from Blackberry (Score:5, Interesting)
From the headline & summary, I was immediately flashed back to my time at RIM where the company had exactly the same vision for Blackberries - the talking points are identical to what I heard at RIM. TFA goes into a bit of the technology required for the vision but, again, I could go back 8-10 years to RIM and see identical issues (connectivity, battery life, processors & software omnipotence) being discussed as requirements for the platform.
RIM's failure to succeed was largely due to hubris and inattention to what was going on around them but I tend to think that there was a basic underpinning that there is NO single device that can do everything for everybody and trying to come up with the ultimate device, whether it is on a communications device (Blackberry) or a "personal contribution platform" isn't going to end where the proponents think it will.
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This is off-topic, but I want to thank you for your time at Research In Motion.
I loved my Blackberry (the real, original tough-as-nails) one, and I currently sport a KeyOne, which I know isn't a *real* BB (like the no true scotsman fallacy) but the keyboard is oh so seductive...
Marketing statement touted as something new (Score:2)
Two of the five things, performance and efficiency, is something every chip maker invests heavily into and have obviously been a priority for Intel since the 1980s. Wireless modems and connecting their chips to them is likewise old hat for them, thou just by a bit over a decade while hardware for faster and more efficient machine learning is more recent for them, it's something every
Hell no (Score:5, Insightful)
I want my PC to do one thing and one thing only: do what I tell it to do. I don't want it to "think" for me, make guesses at what it thinks I'm going to do, or get in the way of what I'm doing.
I want a platform which is stable so I can do my work.
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Branch prediction is for gamers, some people have work to do!
Simpsons (Score:4, Funny)
Homer had the same idea when he designed his car.
But does it run Linux? (Score:4, Interesting)
No thanks (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm only looking for a Personal Computer or Workstation. I don't wish to commit to anything beyond that.
It's like when I buy a blender, I don't also need it to be a cheese grater.
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Once everything moves to 'the cloud', you will be revealed of the burden of making the choice.
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"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." — Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride
Um... (Score:2)
Uncompromised performance (of course); improved connectivity with 5G on the horizon; a dramatic increase in battery life; developing more adaptable platforms that go beyond 2-in-1s and convertibles; and a push towards more intelligent machines with AI and machine learning integration.
Uncompromised performance (of course) and a dramatic increase in battery life typically don't go together well. Granted, they can get better battery life, but it generally means that at least some compromise in performance is needed.
Still, most of this just sounds like a long winded way of saying they want to get into the mobile phone market. Better battery performance- check, 5G connectivity- check, AI blah blah, Siri, Google voice, etc- check. More adaptable platforms, phones are getting pretty powerf
AI and personnal assistants (Score:5, Insightful)
Honestly, I really like the idea of having a personal assistant AI sort of thing that tries to help keep track of stuff for me.
The problem is that everything these days wants to send all that data back to a server somewhere. My personal computer should be just that: My. Computer. I want something that requires zero internet connectivity to do its job. And that job should very clearly be: Do what I tell it to do. Take notes, schedule an appointment on my calendar, open programs, set a timer, or an alarm, or a reminder, etc.
The closest it should get to doing stuff online is if I specifically ask it to do something online. ex: "Search the internet for pictures of kittens." Simply stating "Search for kittens" should default to searching my computer itself. Nothing should go online without my actually stating that it should go online.
Computers in the late 90s were starting to get programs that could do basic voice recognition and dictation. I see no reason why my computer today can't do vastly better at it than the old apple performa did - and without using any servers anywhere to do so.
Three things I need from a computer: (Score:2)
2. Reliable
3. Not locked into using only Windows
The rest is up to the software I run on it.
all dressed up and no place to go (Score:2)
I think the horsepower is already there -- but there needs to be better ways to take advantage of it. What's been missing, in my opinion, is a richer gesture-based GUI. The touch based GUIs we have now are not standard across platforms, and are generally only concerned with desktops, not applications. And so, on our touch device, we can navigate to an app and open it by touch, but once in the app if it has any complexity at all, we're reduced to a KVM or some device that mimics a mouse, because that's th
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> What's been missing, in my opinion, is a richer gesture-based GUI.... There should be a rich, standard set of gestures,
There's only one gesture I'd ever use with Windows.
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> What's been missing, in my opinion, is a richer gesture-based GUI.... There should be a rich, standard set of gestures,
There's only one gesture I'd ever use with Windows.
Ok ok I get it, really. My proposal was OS-agnostic because I don't really care who does it as long as it's rich enough to reasonably do content creation and has a library that's available cross-platform. (If M$ does it, it'll probably be an Edge plug-in that just repurposes their accessibility suite, and everyone will lose interest for another decade or so...)
Crappy integrated graphics (Score:2)
Maybe they should put their money where there mouth is when it comes to performance and stop making the PC the laughing stock of console peasants due to 80% of them with integrated 15 years behind consoles and save game developers a big headache
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I get what you're saying but If you're a gamer and aren't using a fullsize PC, or at least a laptop that supports an external GPU box, then you picked your own poison so deserve everything you get.
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I've also never heard of any Intel integrated GPU that died or desoldered itself because of overheating, making Intel integrated GPU the safest route for non-gaming computers, especially laptops.
Be leery (Score:3)
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Yeah thats also what I got when I translated it from marketingspeak to English.
This is just Intel's marketing department (Score:2)
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> PCs becoming irrelevant for content consumption
Are you really trying to convince us that a fiddly little phone screen is as convenient and good as a big HD monitor, mouse and fullsize keyboard?
Personal contribution platform? (Score:2)
I don't wanna contribute to fuck all. Keeping my egotistical Personal Computer, thank you.
Spystation Home Edition (Score:2)
You PC knows what you did last night.
Pay $20 in the next 12 Hours to prevent us from telling your employer and friends.
Your "friends" at Intel, Microsoft, Facebook, Twitter and Amazon corporation.
Totally missed what I want (Score:2)
The reason the cloud has been able to take over is because the PC stopped developing technologies that serve the user and require more real-time bandwidth than is available on a home internet connection.
I want two big things to happen in PC development.
First, bring the peripherals into this century. Free it from fixed displays and support mixed voice, gesture and keyboard input in everything. Most importantly, I want wireless A/R based displays that allow me to see many virtual displays, sheets of paper, ta
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"be trained at home": afaik, all current AI systems require huge amounts of training data to do anything useful, regardless of what hardware you throw at them. Assuming I'm correct (and if I'm not, doubtless some friendly /.er will let me know), it's anybody's guess what is needed to change this state of the art. My bet is on innate knowledge.
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The leading edge is moving away from this. Training is perhaps the hottest area of AI research. I just read an article about one that could learn to play a game by watching videos of the games being played. There are robotics systems that can train from having an action demonstrated. And there is research into methods of training that reduce the dataset sizes that has produced better networks.
I don't think you're entirely off on "innate knowledge". I think the training will become easier as we move away fro
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Shuck what INTEL wants... (Score:2)
I need threaded comms, interprocess comm and seamless mesh nets. I have work to do, shit ton of devices that steal productive time away with too weak bridges that have to be reconnected to Bluetooth, NFC, WiFi and NAT. Keep the 27" desktop screen and lose the cords. Keep the modular boxen paradigm. I don't care what happens on the portable side.
Take you GHz elsewhere. I need extra boards++, DAC's, encryption and graphics for the future-proof work ahead. I'm plenty productive. Seventy percent of my time is
"PCs aren't personal Contribution Platforms." (Score:2)
"But . . . what if they were?"
Marketing committee discussion, probably.
Ah, Intel (Score:3)
That's the marketing speak for, "Let's divert our customers and shareholders attention from the fact that our 10nm rollout is now three years late and still incomplete and the fact that we haven't updated our uArch in years (the last one was Skylake in ... 2015) and AMD is closely trailing us in the IPC metric (which is considered the cornerstone of CPU performance) and with the advent of 7nm process from the competing fabs is around the corner and AMD has all the chances to make us irrelevant".
Oh, Qualcomm is about to introduce SnapDragon 1000 which is going to directly compete with Intel's ultra low-power/low-voltage CPUs.
Intel has just found itself irrelevant because having been a monopoly for so long has eaten the company from the inside.
Oh, and it's the middle of 2018 and we have yet to see their CPUs which have Meltdown (and Spectre to some extend) fixed in hardware. A bloody 12 months later year after the issue was reported to them. Instead Intel is about to rollout an anniversary 8086 CPU, which is the same old Coffee Lake (8700K) with a 5GHz turbo boost. WTF, Intel?!
Personal Computer using Wintel? (Score:2)
"I think that would be a good idea", to paraphrase Gandhi.
Since I moved to Linux about 19 years ago, I used to wonder about the term "personal computer", and how "PC == Wintel" to many people. Looking at all of those identical Windows appliances vs. all the fun and interesting setups of Linux enthusiasts. Linux machines ranging from supercomputing clusters to wristwatches around the turn of the millennium. What exactly did the Wintel people mean by "personal"? Something familiar to the average person, or
Mindless jerks who were first against the wall (Score:2)
Your Plastic Pal Who's Fun to Be With!
Hey Intel (Score:2)
Otherwise, and most seriously, with me having a laptop that's only running a fraction of it's prior speed, and still not safe form Spectre or meltdown, please go do go fuck yourselves, you pieces of moldy shit.
Intel and the personal contribution platform... (Score:2)
'* NC & Java are platform challenges: - possible emergence of a set of API's and underlying system software that lead to lesser or no role for Windows' ref [edge-op.org]
"it would be crazy to Intel define this
'No NC mention in any specification
Wow... (Score:2)
Computers in More Than Oriental Spleandor (Score:2)
MORE THAN PERSONAL COMPUTERS
Computers for Industry!
Computers for the dead! [youtube.com]
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I *might* start to believe it when a phone has enough power to play AAA games or drive my Vive, or I can install linux on it natively.
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If instead of buying tools you agree to rent access to tools-as-a-service then they could.