R.I.P., Cape Wind (bostonglobe.com) 228
schwit1 quotes the Boston Globe: What a long, slow death it has been for Massachusetts's first proposed offshore wind farm. But now, its proponents are finally pulling the plug. While others in the energy industry considered the Cape Wind project dead, developer Jim Gordon didn't quit after losing power contracts he needed for financing in early 2015, or after state regulators yanked permission for a power line connection last year.
Another big blow came later in 2016 when Cape Wind foes worked their magic on Beacon Hill. They successfully lobbied lawmakers to prevent Cape Wind from benefitting from a major energy bill, one that requires utilities to buy large amounts of offshore wind. This was exactly the kind of legislation Gordon needed. But he wasn't being allowed at the party...
We're embarking on a new era. Wind turbines are on their way for deeper waters, south of Martha's Vineyard. They won't be Gordon's. But at least he can take some credit, in his defeat, for being a pioneer.
Another big blow came later in 2016 when Cape Wind foes worked their magic on Beacon Hill. They successfully lobbied lawmakers to prevent Cape Wind from benefitting from a major energy bill, one that requires utilities to buy large amounts of offshore wind. This was exactly the kind of legislation Gordon needed. But he wasn't being allowed at the party...
We're embarking on a new era. Wind turbines are on their way for deeper waters, south of Martha's Vineyard. They won't be Gordon's. But at least he can take some credit, in his defeat, for being a pioneer.
They don't want wind? (Score:3, Insightful)
Fine. Let's give them a coal-fired plant as an alternative.
The people deserve clean, inexpensive power. (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is, you're giving the people the coal fired plant, when it was the politicians that screwed the people in the first place.
It's heartbreaking to watch the deep corruption in politics hold society back while doing direct harm to the citizens with their "wars" on informed personal and consensual choice and their blatant corporate fluffing.
But as long as the voters remain largely poorly educated and gullible, it's going to continue to be corrupt politicians all the way down. Sadly, the people are unable to make the connection between their voting habits and their problems. Not unwilling; unable.
And guess who controls the people's education?
Right.
Re:The people deserve clean, inexpensive power. (Score:5, Insightful)
it was the politicians that screwed the people in the first place.
Bullcrap. The project was deeply unpopular with the people in the area, and the politicians were reflecting their will.
But as long as the voters remain largely poorly educated and gullible ...
MV has some of the best schools in the nation. They are controlled by locally elected school boards, not some vast right-wing conspiracy to kill wind power and sell more coal.
Sadly, the people are unable to make the connection between their voting habits and their problems.
The problem was windmills that were perceived as an eyesore. They agitated and voted to ban them. They got exactly what they voted for: No windmills in view from the coastline.
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So, the short version is: "We're all for clean energy and stopping global warming... as long as it doesn't obstruct our view of the ocean."
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Yeah, but I'm not OK with a sizable population living in the Grand Canyon demanding someone else in some less attractive place put them in for their use.
which is exactly what everyone in Martha's Vineyard did.
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Why are you calling them windmills? Do you have an aversion to the terms wind turbine or wind generator?
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MV has some of the best schools in the nation.
From my research they are not even near the top in the state! Where's your proof? school digger, us news... none of them show them being the top.
Re:The problem is this project isn't cost effectiv (Score:4, Interesting)
Not sure where you got those numbers for Block Island and Cape Wind because they are not in the Wikipedia page but that page does show the cost of onshore wind to be $24 to $60 MWh ($0.03 to $0.06 per kWh) with offshore wind being about twice as expensive.
(For comparison, coal $100, natural gas $60, nuclear $95, solar PV $58. All of these are minimum costs.)
Costs are dropping rapidly for wind and solar so the original plans are out of date.
Re: The problem is this project isn't cost effecti (Score:2)
Do those price estimates factor in the cost of having metric buttloads of fossil fuel powered generators sitting around waiting for when the wind stops blowing?
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How it will work in the medium term future. Renewables as the main energy with nuclear as back up but also powering high energy recycling to create zero waste cities, converting all waste back into useful raw materials. The big growth in new power stations, interconnected suburbs with solar panels and batteries, even domestic vertical axis wind turbines (low) noise, the burbs supplying power for the rest of the city, with every roof fully covered in solar panels, power station already built, just need the e
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Re:The problem is this project isn't cost effectiv (Score:5, Informative)
You sound like the scam artists that pushed the same crap back a decade ago here in Ontario. It *did* push the cost of electricity though the roof here. The situation here is now so dire that they've mandated by law that they can't cut off power in the winter, for fear of people freezing to death. [globalnews.ca] This, along with what happened in Ontario is gigantic clusterfuck. Nothing more, nothing less and in both cases one would have led to higher energy prices much higher, and in the other case did lead to much higher energy prices. [financialpost.com] So much so that the government is backtracking [globalnews.ca] because by june of next year it will likely cease to be an actual political party.
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They will just "buy" a win, as they have for the last several years.. What is the current plan? Remortgage electric prices for a 25% reduction to get the election win, and in return we pay $25 billion in interest.
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They will just "buy" a win, as they have for the last several years.. What is the current plan? Remortgage electric prices for a 25% reduction to get the election win, and in return we pay $25 billion in interest.
They tried that three times already, they're also trying with the "$15 minimum wage" which is at the very best going to lead to 60k people losing their jobs. What's the current plan going to have to be? Break all FiT contracts, and stop telling companies not to produce electricity - which would drive the costs down for the end consumer.
Look at the polling though, since early this year the ontario liberals haven't polled above 18% they've been as low as 11% support. Wynne's popularity is 5-7% and hasn't in
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They havent yet activated the final part of their "strategy". You know, when "working families" (https://workingfamilies.ca/ ) which is really just a thin union coating spend millions on attack ads for the liberals. This lets them strategically use their own funds for positive messsages, while letting "someone else" do the dirty work.
Might be different this time as they finally took on some of the "third party spending" laws they should have addopted decades ago.
They were also able to get use taxpayer mon
Re: The problem is this project isn't cost effecti (Score:2)
Yeah, it's too bad that Ontario decided to go all in on expensive and inflexible nuclear power. Now you're stuck with these problems.
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Yeah, it's too bad that Ontario decided to go all in on expensive and inflexible nuclear power. Now you're stuck with these problems.
You mean the part where nuclear carries the base load and is still only 0.085kWh with refurbishment included for the reactors? Unlike today where it's: Overcast, with no wind. Yeah those solar cells and windmills are sure working great!
Re: The problem is this project isn't cost effect (Score:2)
https://tvo.org/article/curren... [tvo.org]
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Those costs are almost ten years old. Wind is much cheaper now.
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Do you have a source? I'm very interested in seeing current pricing.
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My source for this was the Wikipedia article referenced by the OP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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Those are all PPAs (power purchase agreements... wholesale).
Wow, I had no idea... (Score:5, Funny)
...that Jim Gordon was a wind power pioneer in addition to being the commissioner of the Gotham PD
Re:Wow, I had no idea... (Score:5, Funny)
...that Jim Gordon was a wind power pioneer in addition to being the commissioner of the Gotham PD
I'm sure the increased risks of bat killings from windmills played into the failure of these wind power projects.
Dems hate wind power (Score:5, Insightful)
The summary ignores the fact that the anti-wind forces were the super wealthy Dems in Martha's Vineyard who didn't want their views altered.
They're all in favor of renewables as long as someone else (you) has to deal with the negatives while they get all the benefits.
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Re:Dems hate wind power (Score:4, Interesting)
Wind Turbines are an ideal match for bog lands. They have a small terrestrial footprint and they do not impede sunlight. Some growers have experimented with leasing underproducing lands for solar but that has a few pitfalls. It's only profitable when the price of electricity produced per acre exceed the price of cranberries that could be produced by that same acre. For every acre of solar, they lose an acre of bog. This does not present itself as a problem with wind. Almost all the land except the turbines foot print can be actively cultivated. For the turbine owner, it's a perfect match as well. They have a lot less work for site development. Since your talking about agricultural land that has already been cleared so effectively that nothing grows higher than six inches above the mean soil line. The access and infrastructure needed to facilitate construction is already in place by virtue of the growers having already created and maintained to facilitate cranberry cultivation. The town governments aren't complaining, since the turbines increase the land value, thus raising the property taxes and increasing town revenue.
From a local standpoint, Cape Wind didn't benefit the local economy. If there were any generalized negatives, they've apparently been overlooked by towns like Bourne, Wareham, Middleboro and Plymouth. Wind development does not seem to be slowing in these towns.
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I don't see their problem. Wind turbines can be built both on- and off shore.
Is it just me but... (Score:5, Insightful)
I think wind turbines are beautiful machines.Highly engineered and efficient devices that (mostly) silently turn 24/7 generating power and displacing carbon producing sources contributing to human flourishing. They are a statement that says intelligent creatures live here.
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As with all technology they are both beautiful and a bit scary. They aren't entirely silent and can be a bit dangerous too, but it doesn't make them stand out from other technology.
Sometimes their presence is similar to art by Simon Stålenhag [simonstalenhag.se].
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They look great off-shore, although now deep water ones are price competitive we probably won't be able to see many of the new farms from land.
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Re:Is it just me but... (Score:4, Interesting)
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They are but ... That doesn't mean humans need to put a mark on everything they touch. Now that said, Cape Wind, fantastic location for it. Big wind farms typically are, as are they on farming land, on the side of some highways, in the middle of the oil refineries and other industrial areas.
What I can't stand is hiking through the wilderness, climbing a mountain to it's highest peak all to see like 3 crappy little wind turbines littered on every peak. Go big, or go home :-)
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Don't the natural gas drills have any beauty about them? How are windmills any different?
I'm also confused on why natural gas drills would be on hills. Doesn't that just mean more dirt to drill through?
I remember seeing an old windmill, had to be nearly a century old, in a valley along the road. I thought that was stupid, there would be more wind on the top of the hill next to it. Then I realized that if they put the windmill on the hill then the well they would have had to dig would have to be that muc
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There are a bunch of turbines near I-90 east of Ellensburg, Washington. We see them whenever we go visit my wife’s family. While I wouldn’t want the entire world covered in them, I find their design to be aesthetically pleasing, all things considered. It wouldn’t bother me t have such an installation visible from my house.
I remember, one winter day, stopping at a rest area from which you can see a large set of these turbines. There was snow on the ground, and a low fog blanketing the area.
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I think wind turbines are beautiful machines.Highly engineered and efficient devices that (mostly) silently turn 24/7 generating power and displacing carbon producing sources contributing to human flourishing. They are a statement that says intelligent creatures live here.
Funny. That's how I feel about nuclear power!
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You do realize that glass windows, power lines and cats kill 2 orders of magnitude more birds than wind turbines
Re:Is it just me but... (Score:5, Insightful)
Cats kill many times more birds than windmills. (3 billion a year vs 300,000)
We should go after the cats first.
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So, if we go after the cats first does that mean going after windmills later? Wouldn't it be easier to just not build them in the first place? Also, it's not like we can't do more than one thing at once, we can manage the cats killing birds at the same time we not build more windmills.
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If you are truly worried about birds, go after the cats (3 billion birds). If you still want to save more birds, go after windows (1 billion birds).
You can ignore windmills. They are a rounding error (1/10,000).
With all the birds you save from getting rid of cats, you can build 10,000 times as many windmills.
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Why bring up the birds killed by cats? That's just a distraction. We're talking about birds killed by windmills, the things we use to get energy. We need energy and so if we care about birds then we should look at what kind of energy has the least bird kills per energy produced. The highest on the list of birds killed per energy produced is wind.
To be clear, I don't care about birds killed. Birds are stupid. If idiot cats can kill them then they deserve to run into some windmills and die.
If we do care
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Coal kills more birds than wind.
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Dismiss the problem now if you like. At some point this cannot be dismissed so easily.
We could more than compensate for these bird deaths by heavily fining everyone who allows their pet cat to wander around outside.
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I'm pretty sure that Mr. Whiskers and Fluffy aren't taking down bald eagles. A quick internet search tells me that current windmills kill somewhere between 400 and 4000 eagles every year, reporting varies. This is of an estimated population of about 140,000 bald eagles and 40,000 golden eagles.
Then there are other large birds put at risk by windmills, owls, ospreys, vultures, hawks, falcons, and so on. These are large birds with little fear of domestic cats, quite the contrary actually since they've been
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Uh, they're not talking about birds killed by the power lines. They're talking about birds killed by flying into the moving turbine blades. Those are, obviously, bird deaths that don't happen with other types of power generation.
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I'm pretty sure PV collectors kill birds too. I'm having trouble citing a source with so many results from solar thermal muddying up my search. I recall something on Slashdot about this not too long ago.
Re: Is it just me but... (Score:2)
Re: Is it just me but... (Score:2)
Re:Is it just me but... (Score:5, Informative)
You do realize that you're linking to someone's blog [wikipedia.org], not an established news source? And that the author literally cites scientists that "poisoning from scavenging carcasses tainted by lead ammunition is likely responsible for many of the [bird] deaths", before wondering why "nobody" is concerned about windmills.
Well, here's the reason: As has been established repeatedly, the number of birds killed by windmills (on the order of half a million a year [sciencedirect.com] in the entire US) is completely dwarfed by, say, the number of birds killed by windows (on the order of one billion [abcbirds.org]), not to mention cars and cats.
That's not to say that people are not concerned with birds killed by wind mills, too. (And bats, porpoises and other animals.) The problem is fortunately entirely manageable by choosing appropriate locations for wind farms [carbonbrief.org] and other precautions. In particular, the construction (like all big construction) is a much bigger environmental issue than the actual operation of the windmills. E.g. here's Siemens Wind Power describing a solution to minimize noise pollution for endangered porpoise populations and other marine life [siemens.com] during construction of off-shore wind farms.
(Then there's that other growing threat to birds: Climate change. [rspb.org.uk] Which is why the Massachusetts Audubon Society supported the Cape Wind project [massaudubon.org].)
Definition of Pioneer (Score:2)
It gets better (Score:4, Interesting)
The view they are talking about being ruined is the view from their fishing boats, sail boats, and yachts 20 miles off shore.
I regularly poo poo on all things tree huggerish, but as an engineer I love wind turbines. There is enough potential wind power just off shore in the US to install 4 times the current power requirements.
Throw in Geo, Solar, and a bunch of base loading produced by coal/natural gas, nuclear, and if Elon can get them to work battery's, and basically we have enough power capacity to fulfill demand for the next several hundred years for all sectors of the economy including transportation, without ever having to import another drop of oil from overseas again.
Re:It gets better (Score:4, Informative)
You're just plain wrong. The closest turbines would have been only four miles off the shore of the Cape. Colby did a visibility study https://digitalcommons.colby.e... [colby.edu] and found that “41.25% of residential areas will be able to see 90% of at least one tower.”
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We can’t have the rich folks’ view obstructed. The loss of property value might compel them to let a servant or two go, leading to a spike in unemployment.
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(The stupid and the lazy wouldn't last very long.)
Required them to buy offshore wind?? (Score:3, Insightful)
So, the only way this would really work is if everyone were required by law to use the product of this company?
Hey, I bet I could make a lot of money making baseball base markers, if everyone in the country were required by law to buy three of them every year!
Slightly more seriously, I don't consider something a good investment if it requires a law making everyone an involuntary customer...
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How about if it was something that the customers needed anyway, and the choice was between a product with most of its costs up-front, and a cheaper-looking but dirtier product that cost consumers and society a lot more in the longer term? Obviously the first is a better investment overall, but the second would still look attractive to many, unless a way was found to make the greater costs more obvious.
I'm not a fan of heavy-handed legislation either, but when the current alternative is a product that is pop
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You should think before you write.
You realise auto insurance is not government mandated in many countries, and it still works fine, right?
No?
Oh dear.
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How do you propose to replace medical insurance, Einstein?
Fixed that for you.
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First, I don't consider insurance companies a good investment.
Second, I don't have to own a car, and thus don't have to buy auto insurance. This case, though, isn't about "we need their product therefore we buy it", it's "we're required by law to buy their product whether we need it or not". Consider the possibilities inherent in requiring EVERYONE to buy auto insurance, even if they don't own a car, nor have a driver's license...
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Second, I don't have to own a car, and thus don't have to buy auto insurance.
Or you can own a car and just not drive it on public roads.
Also, in some states you can put up a bond or submit a certified financial statement in lieu of buying insurance.
it's "we're required by law to buy their product whether we need it or not". Consider the possibilities inherent in requiring EVERYONE to buy auto insurance, even if they don't own a car, nor have a driver's license...
That is not a good analogy, because everyone would NOT be required to buy their electricity. You are only required to pay if you draw power from the public grid. So if you don't want to pay, you could live without electricity like the Amish, you could run a generator in your basement, or put a battery backed solar panel on your roof.
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Why not? Electric utilities are monopolies. How else would the power be sold?
So you are arguing that the solution to a monopoly is to make everyone do business with it?
But, remember, Democrats care about AGW (Score:5, Insightful)
You know, the rich Democrats who had this project shot down repeatedly really care about global warming. I mean, you wouldn't want these ugly towers to ruin their views while they're on their yacht or flying their private plane. It's understandable.
Money + politics = toxic combo (Score:2)
I wonder if the corruption was ever this bad...in Massachusetts, one of the most favorable political climates for a project like this, money wins out. I know political corruption has existed forever, but it seems like you can't get anything done unless you have enough money to pay for a lobbyist. If everything normal people want grinds to a halt, they're eventually going to get fed up.
The thing that sucks is that most good people avoid politics because they see what a dirty business it is. Even in the large
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I wonder if the corruption was ever this bad
Take a look at the career of Chester Arthur. He gained the lucrative post of Collector of the Port of New York in 1871, as part of the political spoils system. Then in 1883, as president, he helped curtail the spoils system by signing the Pendleton Civil Service Reform Act. I don't think anybody (apart from the beneficiaries) would be very happy with the level of corruption in the 1870s.
Politicians! (Score:2)
Mayor Quimby: There's a thousand dollar leaving-town tax!
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Remove the unwieldy constraints of oversight from these poor businesses, you say?
Couple examples where less oversight didn't pan out:
1)Appalachia with the coal mines.
2)Wall Street with Glass-Steagall.
3)Nearly every child or proft-minded company with almost any activity.
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When business becomes over intrusive into our lives, who else can you turn to but the government? When business says it's more profitable to lock it's workers into a warehouse with poor ventilation and no fire safety equipment (that costs $$!), who else can you turn to but the government? When business feels they can sell you a product that they know will either kill you or it does nothing at all, and feels it's your problem for buying it, who else can you turn to but government?
Government is what it is b
Re: Lack of Property Rights (Score:3, Informative)
If you were at risk from dying by being locked in a warehouse you should, through the magic of capitalism, instantaneously acquire another job at another warehouse which, of course, will be totally safe.
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Is it me or is something missing from this post? Can you clarify your point please?
Why would you be locked in a warehouse if you didn't want to be?
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Then move perhaps? Although in the USA this is NOT a normal situation anymore now is it?
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Re: Lack of Property Rights (Score:2)
Because eating isn't optional
Re: Because that's what capitalism is, doofus. (Score:2)
It used to happen in deeply capitalist countries too until it was outlawed by evil government thugs.
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You should be awesome like cayenne8. Then you can be a government contractor and decide your own working conditions.
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When business becomes over intrusive into our lives, who else can you turn to but the government? When business says it's more profitable to lock it's workers into a warehouse with poor ventilation and no fire safety equipment (that costs $$!), who else can you turn to but the government? When business feels they can sell you a product that they know will either kill you or it does nothing at all, and feels it's your problem for buying it, who else can you turn to but government?
Government is what it is because it's been cleaning up Capitalism's messes since we started this country.
Oh yea, you DIDN'T read what I said now did you, you heard what you wanted to make your argument... The straw man that it is.
Look, I said government should be as unobtrusive as possible, I DIDN'T say non-existent. There are problems for which government is the ONLY tool, but I'm trying to point out that if the problem is a screw, then government is a sledge hammer. You can insert a screw with a sledge hammer, but the results are not pretty.
The tool we call government is a blunt instrument yet we insis
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So if you think having laws to prevent a warehouse full of people from going up in flames actually work, I have a number of recent examples of this not being true, in the USA even.
You get out of Government what you put into it, and frankly, in this country, we stopped putting in about 20 years ago. Listen to yourself, you automatically assume the worst return from it so you don't even bother looking for better from it. Why should we be surprised if inspections don't get performed on businesses if you've cut your tax base to the bone? We could transition from taxes to straight fees and I guarantee you that corporations will complain about them, while simultaneously taking advantage
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And when all the businesses collude to fuck your ass with a rusty nail, to whom will you turn?
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And when all the businesses collude to fuck your ass with a rusty nail, to whom will you turn?
You turn to YOURSELF.. What part of build something better don't you get. If businesses insist on mistreating their customers, even if they collude with all the others providing the goods or services in question, then YOU build a business that DOESN'T and you will win the game and others will be better off for it. Look, building a business may be hard work, but if everybody out there is abusing their customers what's YOUR excuse? You don't want to try?
There isn't a business out there "too big to fail" or
Re:Capitalism. How does it work? (Score:4, Interesting)
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Pity that people are taught that it's impossible to compete because the other guy is too big... Come on folks, this is not rocket science (unless you started SpaceX). Sure, many attempts fail, but some succeed. The TRUTH here is that if you don't try, you will are guaranteed to fail. However, if you try, there is a chance you may succeed.
So what do you think is the wise thing to do?
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You turn to YOURSELF.. What part of build something better don't you get. If businesses insist on mistreating their customers, even if they collude with all the others providing the goods or services in question, then YOU build a business that DOESN'T and you will win the game...
What part of the business you're competing against will just have you killed if you don't play along do YOU not get? That's what bugs me about people like you, we've been here before, yet you keep wanting to redo the past. Read up on the Pinkertons sometime. Private militia group that giant conglomerates and industrialists used to push their workers into line, kill off their competition and ensure that their particular boats didn't get rocked.
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Again I point out that I'm not advocating for zero government involvement, just the least amount of it we can manage.
If you are referring to the Pinkertons getting into a shooting conflict with a bunch of Union strikers, then I ask you to tell me what the conflict was about? Why was labor upset and what was the company doing hiring the Pinkertons?
I think you miss the actual lesson from history here.
Re: Lack of Property Rights (Score:3, Interesting)
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I am from the state and have friends from the area. What he did is just being creepy. There might have been some laws broken. There might not. The statute of limitations is up so it's a non-starter.
Here's the problem: Had he done this the smart way he would have just apologized for possible transgression in his younger years and moved on. It would have quickly faded into the background of political noise. He didn't. What he did do is expose himself as a liar, hypocrite, and unethical. He said the o
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Republicans are the ones who dump money onto their precious insiders, as shown with their Cash for Clunkers
You need to put down the crack pipe before you post.
I checked the Senate votes on that Cash for Clunkers bill. There were 4 Republicans that voted for it, and 2 independents, and... wait for it... 54 Democrats. Votes against the bill were 1 Democrat and 35 Republicans.
If the Cash for Clunkers bill was just a bailout for the auto industry, to buy votes in the next election, then we can put all of that on the Democrats. Especially since Obama signed it, and the House had a Democrat majority at the time.
If
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You don't even care to learn the truth?
Go vote for Moore, you deserve him.
I don't live there so I don't care. I prefer to save my mental bandwidth for more interesting things. The vote there is a choice between two the lesser of two evils. I see no "win" here. It sounds like if Moore wins he might not be allowed to take his seat in the Senate. Apparently that's a thing.
I wonder if your opiod addled mind realized what you were saying.
Probably not. Like Elon Musk I have a tendency to post to the internet after taking my sleeping pills. That makes it hard to type sometimes because then the keyboard gets all bendy, and the lights off the sc
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I come back to my computer this morning and see you've replied, assuming I'm conversing with the same AC. After reading all of that I had to go back and figure out what this was all about because your post is all over the place. This was started with my comment that the Republican running in Alabama was merely accused of improper and creepy, but likely not illegal, behavior. If Moore did break the law then it would seem easier to press charges before he gets elected to the US Senate. Once seated then th
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Government needs to be as unobtrusive in our lives and businesses as possible, yet we've made it into the one organization that controls everything imaginable.
What in the fuck are you talking about, exactly?
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A "Russian Troll" that is saying "let the market handle where and how those resources should be managed" ?
LOL, well if the Russians have come over to capitalistic principles from communism, I guess we have come full circle, because the USA has been walking away from capitalism for decades.
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And some Kennedys will make people drink their medicine until they drown of it.
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Besides how it would look visually which for some people was big issue, another large problem was the fact that maintenance would have been very costly and difficult, and the cost of energy even though cheaper to produce was announced that everyone would be charged more for energy than what they currently are. These are the key reasons why so many in the area have been against this project.
These were going to be at least 5 miles away from any beach vantage point. They would be very tiny to the naked eye.
https://www.capewind.org/where... [capewind.org]