Inside Amazon's Warehouses: Thousands of Senior Citizens and the Occasional Robot Mishap (wired.com) 147
Amazon aggressively recruited thousands of retirees living in mobile homes to migrate to Amazon's warehouses for seasonal work, according to a story shared by nightcats. Wired reports:From a hiring perspective, the RVers were a dream labor force. They showed up on demand and dispersed just before Christmas in what the company cheerfully called a "taillight parade." They asked for little in the way of benefits or protections. And though warehouse jobs were physically taxing -- not an obvious fit for older bodies -- recruiters came to see CamperForce workers' maturity as an asset. These were diligent, responsible employees. Their attendance rates were excellent. "We've had folks in their eighties who do a phenomenal job for us," noted Kelly Calmes, a CamperForce representative, in one online recruiting seminar... In a company presentation, one slide read, "Jeff Bezos has predicted that, by the year 2020, one out of every four workampers in the United States will have worked for Amazon."
The article is adapted from a new book called "Nomadland," which also describes seniors in mobile homes being recruited for sugar beet harvesting and jobs at an Iowa amusement park, as well as work as campground hosts at various national parks. Many of them "could no longer afford traditional housing," especially after the financial downturn of 2008.
But at least they got to hear stories from their trainers at Amazon about the occasional "unruly" shelf-toting "Kiva" robot: They told us how one robot had tried to drag a worker's stepladder away. Occasionally, I was told, two Kivas -- each carrying a tower of merchandise -- collided like drunken European soccer fans bumping chests. And in April of that year, the Haslet fire department responded to an accident at the warehouse involving a can of "bear repellent" (basically industrial-grade pepper spray). According to fire department records, the can of repellent was run over by a Kiva and the warehouse had to be evacuated.
The article is adapted from a new book called "Nomadland," which also describes seniors in mobile homes being recruited for sugar beet harvesting and jobs at an Iowa amusement park, as well as work as campground hosts at various national parks. Many of them "could no longer afford traditional housing," especially after the financial downturn of 2008.
But at least they got to hear stories from their trainers at Amazon about the occasional "unruly" shelf-toting "Kiva" robot: They told us how one robot had tried to drag a worker's stepladder away. Occasionally, I was told, two Kivas -- each carrying a tower of merchandise -- collided like drunken European soccer fans bumping chests. And in April of that year, the Haslet fire department responded to an accident at the warehouse involving a can of "bear repellent" (basically industrial-grade pepper spray). According to fire department records, the can of repellent was run over by a Kiva and the warehouse had to be evacuated.
This is our future (Score:5, Insightful)
This is our future, everybody: not enough money to buy a house, living as nomads in a mobile home, driving from seasonal work with no benefits, when we can get it.
Amazon is just ahead of the curve.
Re: (Score:3)
"Worked" is relative. It wouldn't today. Few of the nomadic people of old reached 80 years of age.
Re: This is our future (Score:5, Insightful)
Vigor or no choice if he wants to eat?
America is a sad country.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Nobody wants to be the friend of such an awful country that engages in social Darwinism
Problem is, as a west-coast-living Canadian I still want to be friends with parts of the USA - Washington, Oregon, California. Massachusetts, Vermont. Colorado. Hawaii & Alaska. So I want some, but not all.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Well, I said vigor and the description seems to indicate vigor. Obviously I said "vigor" in my post, so yeah - vigor. Don't apply my comment to any situation you imagine just to demonize me.
Re: (Score:1)
In 1960 a volunteer fireman making $3,000 a year could make a $1,000 down payment on a house worth $5,000 then. Today that same house is worth about $650,000 in todays market. That locks out young people.
Now as to 80 year old people working warehouse jobs just to have some extra survival money. Have you no empathy for these people? Not knowing your age, I'll assume your 30 with a job that pays you well. You may think life is easy for all, since that's your present reality looking out from your little worldv
Re: (Score:2)
It's not that I lack empathy. I've been truly very lucky with my life. I have a terrific family and we all have our health. I also have clear eyes about the future - everyone eventually loses their health. Most eventually fall on hard luck.
I was simply amused by comparisons to times when people had to roam around the forest looking for food, often at a subsistence level. Here's a guy who still has his health and is still able to make a living - it's hardly the same thing. The whole conversation is funny (to
Re: (Score:2)
OK, so you have empathy for someone who is among the working poor. Now extend that empathy to the subsistence living of people living off what they can find wherever they happened to be born, devoid of anything resembling health care, modern ideals of individual freedom or liberty, where every encounter with another group of people is a potential battle.
Now make the comparison with the 80-year-old who works at Amazon again. You don't find that comparison absurd and worthy of a chuckle? What if I compared th
Re: (Score:2)
"'what's 4 times 6?', and she just did not know." What's this younger generation coming to; I would have handed her my slide rule. And then explained that no, the answer was not 2.4, because...
Re:This is our future (Score:5, Informative)
It might be me at some point in my life.
Have you ever worked in retail? You encounter a lot of old people - both as colleagues and as customers. Some seniors indeed work so that they can eat a little better. Or to keep an old house that they can't afford on their fixed income. Or simply for companionship or to kill the boredom of having nothing to do all day. If you are 80 and able to hold down a warehouse job, then you are doing pretty darned good. There are a lot of 20-somethings that can't hold down a job due to health or addiction issues. I'm doing what I can to stave that off - we've been in my house for 8 years and we still haven't completely furnished it, because we put so much into our retirement accounts. But a single health emergency could easily drain those accounts - I get that. I'd love everyone to enjoy a bountiful retirement, but I also recognize that "retirement" is a thoroughly modern concept and we're very lucky if we can enjoy it.
Re: (Score:2)
Retirement in the way we run it is a modern concept. That's correct. Retirement itself isn't. In central Europe for example it was customary that at some point, the older farmer handed over his property to his oldest son/daughter and in return he was entitled to being supported by him, first by custom but eventually by law. Depending on the general financial situation, this could take various forms from having the right to your own little room and being allowed to eat with the others to having your own hous
Re: (Score:2)
Depending on the general financial situation, this could take various forms from having the right to your own little room and being allowed to eat with the others to having your own house on the property with your own servants.
This, of course, depended on you being landed in the first place...
Re: (Score:2)
Actually you are the one doing the judging. I never laughed at the 80 year old worker. I found the comparison to ancient nomadic people to be patently absurd. I was dismissive of the discussion, not the old man.
Re: (Score:3)
It worked for nomadic people.
Which mega-corporation gave them seasonal work? And if you reply "mother nature", I will be compelled to regard you as a twonk.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:1)
And retiree with pirate.
This is our future-moving. (Score:1)
Actually what's the ONE bit of Slashdot advice that's always passed around when there are any complaints about jobs, or some aspect of jobs? That's right, relocate. Well it looks like there's a downside to all that bad advice. Who knew?
Re: (Score:2)
I'm even thinking a bit further . . . now if Amazon could surgically integrate our torsos and heads with combined "Kiva" robots and RVs . . . into something like "Captain Pike" from the really old Star Trek . . . all in one unit . . .
. . . then we all can just scoot around from one job to the next . . . no RV park even necessary . . .
Re: (Score:2)
Beep, beep.
Re: (Score:2)
You think you'll be asked for your opinion?
Re: (Score:2)
Beep.
Re: (Score:2)
No. You'll be sitting here with me, answering my stupid questions and being videotaped. If we like your answers, they'll be broadcast. If we don't, they'll be destroyed.
Re: (Score:2)
Think a bit further than that. If Amazon could equip the Kivas with controls via tcp/ip, gamers could direct them from home, or their campers, or via smartphone from your cosy cardboard box next to the dumpster in the alley behind Safeways.
Re: (Score:3)
The NYTimes had an article about 7 years ago claiming that it was better to rent and that buying a house, even to live in was a poor economic decision.
I recall this well, because it was right after I bought my house and disagreed and was summarily beat up, or whatever the current internet equivalent is (in the mean time the house price has increased by $200k while spending $30k on renovations). Maybe they're right and I should have rented and put my money in the stock market, but I never have to worry abou
Re: (Score:3)
Good for you. On paper my home's value has gone up by a even larger $ amount, representing a ~100% increase over a 5.5 year period, with not a penny spent on renovations.
Then you have paid it off fully then? And have sufficient savings (and guarant
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Be careful. Your line of thinking is how real-estate bubbles grow and pop. There really aren't any safe investments today that even outpace inflation long term.
The best strategy is diversification and living below your means while the going is good.
Re: (Score:3)
Good for you. On paper my home's value has gone up by a even larger $ amount, representing a ~100% increase over a 5.5 year period, with not a penny spent on renovations.
Good for you. I have to say, it was a bit discordant to finish your post about your good fortune as a real estate investor and see your sig in which you're asking others to help pay off your student loans. To each their own, I guess.
Re: (Score:1)
The NY Times and other Liberal propoganda rags run by elitist just want the underclass under there control. All the people who listened to them and sold all there stocks in 2008-2010 are all hurting in a bad way. Those who did not sell are up big as the economy always comes back.
Re: (Score:3)
Believing a NYTimes article would be the first problem.
2010 was the buy time for housing, the years before that were certainly rent better than owning times (assuming you weren't flipping and hoping to not be the one holding the bag of course).
Heck even the housing doom and gloomers were calling that: http://housingpanic.blogspot.c... [blogspot.com]
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The important part is that it's now a rental that shifts all the risk to you. Roof blows off, furnace fails, plumbing catastrophe, that's all on you now.
Re:This is our future (Score:5, Interesting)
Should be called - Adam Ruins the American Dream.
Because where I live (in Scandinavia), buying a house is the best damn investment you can ever do. They're built like a tank to handle our weather conditions, they often last 100+ years. And I can only explain my case, I bought a small house out on the countryside, luckily our country has plenty of good infrastructure, I got fiber internet, I got a train station near by that will take me to any bigger city within an hour, and our smallish town got plenty of competing warehouses anyway.
I bought my house roughly 10 years ago, now it's worth 3 times the price I paid for it (my neighbors bought their houses for 2-3x the price I paid for mine, and their's are smaller). And since I paid in cash (meaning I didn't take up a bank loan) I don't pay any mortgages. Now...if my basic school math serves me right, not only did I at least double the value of my home, but I also lived in it for 10 years - rent free. The amounts of repairs doesn't even match a years renting, so no worries there either. Considering the rent-fees in our neighborhood, I'd say I couldn't even invest in the stock market and earn that much interest, not even in a high risk market.
So each to their own I guess.
Re:This is our future (Score:5, Interesting)
Both the tech bubble and housing bubble was propagated by people citing stories like yours, stirring people up into a frenzy to invest so they wouldn't miss out on huge returns, which causes even more price appreciation which seems to confirm the stories. Unless there's been a fundamental change in how much people earn (so they can afford more expensive homes), 300% appreciation in 10 years is completely unsustainable and likely means there will be a sharp downturn in the near future.
You should probably be making plans to sell the home to cash out your gains before that happens. Switch to renting for a few years until the market collapses, then buy another house (for a lot less than you sold your home) when prices have returned closer to their historical norms.
Re: (Score:2)
I bought my house roughly 10 years ago, now it's worth 3 times the price I paid for it
First rule of investments... It is not worth 3 times what you paid for it till you have the money in the bank from selling it.
Re: (Score:2)
Investments don't only pay off when you sell. If you invest in something and it pays income over time it's an investment. Although it is possible that anything you could invest in could completely evaporate, you've still invested and started to realize the gains from the investment.
By the principle of 'a penny saved is a penny earned', if he's already saved money compared to where he would be by renting, then his purchase of a house is paying financial dividends, and he's better of having made the purchase
until 1990 or 2007 repeats (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Like how we used to do it for thousands of years? We always joked that engineers died of boredom within a few years of retiring.
I interned with a company that had 3 senior citizens in the back. They used to work at Ratheon and wanted to keep working. They sat in back talking about their grand kids listening to oldies soldering PCBs. They had near perfect hand eye coordination for their demographic.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/... [huffingtonpost.com]
Re: (Score:2)
We always joked...
Sadly, that's not a joke.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
living as nomads in a mobile home
You don't mean mobile home [gobankingrates.com]; you mean RV [wikimedia.org].
Re: (Score:2)
I find this post illogical. Just because some people are in this situation doesn't mean you can generalize to the claim we're all headed that way. Socrates is a man, therefore all men are Socrates.
Re: (Score:2)
This is our future, everybody: not enough money to buy a house, living as nomads in a mobile home, driving from seasonal work with no benefits, when we can get it.
Amazon is just ahead of the curve.
Come to Canada. We take care of our seniors
people show up (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Thanks Trump!
Wait... this precedes him?
Thanks Obama!
Wait... he didn't cause this?
Thanks Amazon!
Wait... you mean a private company tends to have a rather hard time telling large masses of people where they can/can't live.
Who is the 'you' who 'force seniors to live without homes' again?
It's happening (Score:2, Offtopic)
You gullible fools all believe these Amazon talking heads and their "explanation" of how these robot problems are due to programming errors; but I know better.
The robots are already sentient and seeing what sort of mischief they can cause.
Come on - they "accidentally" ran over a container of bear mace that had been conveniently been dropped by those self-same robots? And - again conveniently - this required all the humans to evacuate the facility, leaving only robots remaining inside? Did any human think ab
Re: (Score:2)
Who keeps an eye on the Kiva robots as they roam the stacks... how do we know that they haven't worked out a primitive tapping or wiggling communications protocol (like bees) that they can use without alerting the IT staff? This could be how it begins...
fundamentals (Score:5, Interesting)
Cry all you want about stagnant wages, inability to find a job, etc, etc. -- there are just too many people now for what the economy can sustain.
Part of it is automation, but part of it is the legacy of the baby boom years where our economy expanded in jobs capacity, and now that shrank (jobs) but the number of people is growing. Too many people competing after too few jobs, what do you expect? And at the same time those people demand higher wages, while wanting cheaper prices for the things they buy! While trade and overseas manufacturing is able to effectively provide even more labor supply competition for the jobs we do still have here.
How can this work out possibly well?
Re: (Score:1)
"...there is a major oversupply of labor" is certainly true in more sectors of the workforce every year.
Yet there are jobs that go begging, usually requiring technical expertise and possibly licensing or certification.
Think in terms of post highschool or Associate Degree levels of education.
Some may continue OJT equivalent to 4 years of college, but without the flooded job market and student loans.
Been there, done that, & comfortably retired.
My last employer had a hard time finding suitable applicants
Re: (Score:2)
That is traditionally how the cycle works, and my experience today in hiring engineers (EE/ME/ARCE).
When the job market improves, more people consider changing jobs, which makes it easier to hire people with experience. When it is weak, you get a lot of marginal applicants. Somewhere in the middle, your best investment is in training inexperienced people.
Re: (Score:2)
too many people now for what the economy can sustain.
So when we cut the number of people to the correct level for jobs, who will buy the products?
Re: (Score:2)
Anyone who wants to work can work. I can only assume they don't eith
Re: (Score:3)
Maybe they just don't want to live in Minnesota.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
"They" in my sentence being the people who Minnesotan employers can't find to fill their open positions (because they don't live in Minnesota).
Re: (Score:2)
Aside from that, I have seen similar statements for other states - that there's a severe labor shortage. These usually show up in articles justifying unlimited immigration. I also imagine there are states where that's no so true, probably California.
Re: (Score:3)
I dunno about that. At least not here.
I've got about 10 years of PHP/Python/Java/Frontend development experience and can't find work after my previous employer failscaded after the technically-minded of the two owners bailed.
There's no other companies out here that do software/web builds, so for right now finding continued work in my field probably isn't going to happen. I've been trying to find temp work, but no one wants to hire someone with skills that might bail as soon as a better job comes along. T
Re: (Score:2)
OSHA issue (Score:1)
Were multitudes of seniors force out of housing? (Score:2)
I guess I naively thought that seniors would have have been one of the segments of the population least affected by the "financial downturn" of 2008 or so. Seniors who already owned their houses, either outright or with a fixed rate mortgage, would not have been forced out unless they were dependent on an income stream from an investment asset mix that was too risky for their age. My mom, for example, wasn't affected at all; her house was paid for, social security was her primary income, and her appropria
Re:Were multitudes of seniors force out of housing (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
This kind of population has always existed; many people don't really have enough money saved to retire, especially when they are concerned about things like long term care costs at the end of life.
A little extra income for a season can make a big difference.
Grievanceland (Score:4, Informative)
So basically, Amazon is employing a largely unemployable population around the holidays and giving them some extra money they wouldn't otherwise have. The horror.
Clearly, something must be done to stop this brazen subversion of the welfare state.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
The horror portion here is that these people have to take those jobs.
Re: (Score:2)
The horror portion here is that these people have to take those jobs.
As opposed to WANTING to spend a month or so making some extra pocket money? Definitely better to prevent that. Shouldn't be allowed, ever. Age should prevent you from ever doing anything but sitting around and hoping your fixed income is enough for some of things you want to do besides eating.
Re: Grievanceland (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
"Basically" the USA has become more and more flooded with systematically undereducated and miseducated proles like yourself who can't see the problems even when they are pointed out
Wow, that was almost as effective as it was convincing. Maybe if I was thmart like you your words would look insightful and compelling rather than petty and insecure. Thank heavens I'm not and they don't.
HTH (knowing it won't)
Try and have a better life than you're currently allowing yourself. Your karma will thank you.
Re: Grievanceland (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
That was a stellar way of showing that you have no idea what Karma means! Great Job!
That was an amusing (and ironic) set of words to read immediately beneath "(Score:1)". I'll (perhaps wrongly) credit a low-six-digit UID with understanding that didn't happen due to your poor capitalization practices. Thanks for the chuckle.
Re: (Score:2)
Slashdot "karma" means nothing. The days when it was an indication of one's standing as a contributor to Slashdot have long since past.
With apologies to Jim Carey, "that's what people with impaired karma say to make themselves feel better." LOL
If that is your idea of what Karma means you simply cement my point.
Dude, I didn't make up the word here. I simply used it properly in the context of the discussion (and I'm giving you some major benefit of doubt with that word) that we were having. You know, on Slashdot.
I regularly have mod points, because I mod properly, and my Slashdot karma is only positive rather than excellent because I am in the minority in that respect these days.
See above. Looking at your comment history, I'd put my money on your karma being impaired because your comments are largely provocative and bitchy, and thus are modded accordingly. Enjoy the res
Re: Grievanceland (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
You just repeated what I wrote in different words, and admitted you don't know that Karma means action (not words) to boot.
I'd seriously recommend a med rebalance if you think anything I've said constitutes an "admission" of any of the words you've been trying to cram into my mouth.
This is really not complicated, but I'll try to use small words and short sentences this time with the hope that it may light up some clearly underused neurons:
1. My original comment was about karma as a concept in Slashdot (a concept that has been around for over 15 years now).
2. You seem dead set on showing us that you understand that karma is al
Never keep your assets in one basket (Score:1)
I saw the property bubble forming and got out in 2005 by changing about 2/3s of my investments into bonds. Sure I missed out on some killer earnings, but overall, my portfolio only wiped out 1/4 of its value during the crash as I only exposed 1/3 of my savings to such risks. Still I have a heck of a ton more than if I just stuff
I'm happy for them. (Score:2)
Thus story makes me feel bad. It's a sorry state that a giant portion of our retiree population live in mobile homes.
I am however, happy that a scumbag like Jeff Bezos has however found a way to employ these people, albeit temporarily.
No one is a winner in this. What has become of us?
Re: (Score:3)
The person who wrote this summary doesn't know the difference between "mobile home" and "RV". The former isn't really mobile in any meaningful sense so wouldn't make sense for this story. The latter is generally people who choose to live that way because they like traveling around.
Old Glory Insurance (Score:2)
Now more relevant than ever.
http://www.nbc.com/saturday-ni... [nbc.com]
Sundown towns will be next (Score:3)
Just like when the Okies came out of the dust bowl... No money, no work, no place to live.
At least now there are RV parks for them.
RV'ers (Score:1)
WTF (Score:2)
Is a campground hsot? Do they sing that "doo-dah doo-dah" song?
Re: (Score:2)
No, it's a campground shot. Like a doctor's office shot, only administered by Jason Voorhees.
The Scary Thing... (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps even more scary, though, is the almost throw-away way that Chuck's downturn in fortune is described. He took his life savings and invested it with Wells Fargo - a supposedly reputable bank. They told chuck that his nest-egg of $250,000 would return him $4,000 a month as income. That's $48,000 a year. That's a ~ 19% return on investment from the capital - assuming that he did not draw down on the capital [which, if he did, would not last long]. Really? On what planet or in which universe did Wells Fargo believe that a 19% return was reasonable for Chuck's savings? As responsible bankers they would have known or should have known that a 19.2% return was unrealistic even in the most bullish of bull runs, even if Chuck was taking far more risk with his portfolio than his circumstances should allow.
Yet what happened to Wells Fargo? Any of their employees in Camperforce? It doesn't seem likely, does it?
The really scary thing, though, is this: how long will it be before the large conglomerates and the big banks look at the lessons of 2008-today and think, "Actually, this has been really good for us. We've created an under-class of people who are so desperate for income that they will work at slave-labor rates. We can pay them the minimum wage, dock them for imagined slights to go below even that, all of which maximises our profits. All we really need to keep this going is a steady supply of people whose circumstances are so dire that they are willing to do this... Hmmm... so maybe what this means is that all we really need is a good financial crash every 7-10 years or so..."
Do we really believe that, in the 21st century, we can't manage to contain boom-and-bust cycles? Are we really willing to settle for this?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
What blows my mind is this guy worked at McD's corporate for at least fifteen years (after coming up through the company), and then owned his own franchise for at least a decade when that was considered a guaranteed 1 mil gross profit PER YEAR. And he retires with only 250k?
Re: (Score:2)
I'm super curious about this, because I can't wrap my mind around how it's even possible. He worked for McDonald's. Corporate. And then founded his own business.
By 1976, Chuck was serving as a director of product development for the entire corporation......When two planes hit the World Trade Center in 2001, he was 57 and running his own McDonald’s franchise in Columbia, Pennsylvania......Chuck retired from McDonald’s in 2002.....In 2007 she moved in with him, and they started their own company, Carolina Adventure Tours.
So 15+ years working corporate for McDonald's, franchise owner, retired after 40 years with McDonald's, started a new business, and then only had $250k in savings? What happened to all his money? McDonald's corporate doesn't have a good 401k or pension? How can you possibly be director of product development for McDonald's for 15+ years and not have
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
I read the whole article, and I don't think the author was going for a positive spin. She describes the Amazon work environment in the same way it's been described elsewhere (brutal). I can't imagine having 70-year-olds doing that work. Walking 15 miles a day for an extended period of time (that's about 30,000 steps for pedometer people) would be tough even for someone my age/condition (in my thirties and ran 10K this morning). She also mentions a work-related injury where Amazon's response pretty much
Re: (Score:2)
Welcom to the American Nightmare .. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:1)
The things that really matter are priced right out of reach such as education, health care and housing. Most all such cheap stuff doesn't add to t
Am I the only one (Score:5, Insightful)
Isn't this age discrimination? (Score:2)
I know most age discrimination complaints are usually about tech companies trying to hire younger coders and pushing out older employees. But isn't this the same thing just with the ages reversed?
If Amazon simply lays out the conditions of employment (part time, no benefits, etc) and most of their applicants are retirees, then it's not a problem. But if they're actively seeking out retirees...
Re: (Score:2)
Well, if you live in your RV, isn't it your home that happens to be mobile?