Tesla's Electric Semi Truck Will Reportedly Get 200-300 Miles Per Charge (reuters.com) 322
According to Reuters, Tesla next month plans to unveil an electric big-rig truck with a working range of 200 to 300 miles, a sign that the company is targeting regional hauling for its entry into the commercial freight market. From the report: Chief Executive Elon Musk has promised to release a prototype of its Tesla Semi truck next month in a bid to expand the company's market beyond luxury cars. The entrepreneur has tantalized the trucking industry with the prospect of a battery-powered heavy-duty vehicle that can compete with conventional diesels, which can travel up to 1,000 miles on a single tank of fuel. Tesla's electric prototype will be capable of traveling the low end of what transportation veterans consider to be "long-haul" trucking, according to Scott Perry, an executive at Miami-based fleet operator Ryder System. Perry said he met with Tesla officials earlier this year to discuss the technology at the automaker's manufacturing facility in Fremont, California.
Lots of need for electric (semi) tractors (Score:5, Interesting)
I can see a big need for intra-city hauling of trailers. 100 mile range (with less than 20 minute charge times) would probably be adequate and it would help build the infrastructure for electric vehicles in cities.
It also proves the technology and helps it evolve into longer range tractors. 1,000 miles is 16+ hours of driving, which I don't think is legal in most states/provinces, but 400 to 500 probably is reasonable to allow the driver time to stretch, have a meal, rest, shower while the tractor is recharging. I suspect the 1,000 mile range is to minimize fuel costs which is less of an issue with an electric tractor which should be able to plug in at multiple truck stops.
The technology won't be perfect from the starting gate, but Tesla will learn and be able to build better tractors down the road.
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In Europe the law requires drivers to take regular breaks. Details here: https://ec.europa.eu/transport... [europa.eu]
As such, a 200-300 mile range wouldn't even slow them down as long as they didn't have queue for charging too much. The law is strictly enforced too, with vehicles being fitted with devices to monitor compliance.
In any case, it's only a matter of a few years until they go fully antonymous anyway.
Re:Oh for the love of... LEARN about LOGISTICS mor (Score:5, Interesting)
There are other uses beside long-haul. I'd expect Tesla would go first for local routes with smaller tractors and lighter trailers: supermarket and chain restaurant deliveries and the like. A fixed route would be the easiest first market for an electric tractor - assuming it's actually cheaper to operate long-term.
Tesla could still have a nice business even if it's only suitable for 5% of semi trucks sold - but I'd be surprised if they would actually be cheaper long-term (i.e., across multiple battery pack replacements, given how long commercial trucks tend to stay in service).
Re:Oh for the love of... LEARN about LOGISTICS mor (Score:5, Informative)
Although I'm global IT for an international aerospace firm my office is above a shipping and receiving warehouse (long story.) We ship large crates (could be used for homeless housing, god knows I've had apartments about that size) full of airliner cabin parts all over the world. The trucks that pick them up, mostly FedEx, are short cab with 30' trailers, all local. If these guys can rack up more than 200 miles a day in Seattle/Everett area traffic I would be amazed. The Tesla range is perfect for this use. There are a lot of these out there. Even the can haulers (containers) from BC going to Seattle/Tacoma are in this range one-way.
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This is also a good point.
My roommate used to drive a big-rig truck locally--pick up stuff at the port in Long Beach and take it to local distributors. All those trips were under 200 miles. She also used to pick up at the port and take loads to Arizona, where other truckers would take them to their final destination--a distance of about 350 miles, so a little over.
I'll agree that the range seems a bit low, but it's definitely interesting stuff.
What goes up must come down.... (Score:3)
There are a number of routes where an electric truck would never need to charge - ones where they drive an empty truck up a hill to a mine or agricultural area, pick up a heavy load, and then have it push you back down the hill. I can foresee drivers needing to watch that the battery is empty enough to make it down the hill.
I trust that they have built the regenerative system heavily. Driving a truck down a hill is where truck drivers earn their money, and drivers will love them if they make that job easy.
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Actually no, no that STILL will not work because even those 'small local routs' STILL use full sized semi trucks. They just use what is a called a 'day cab'. Or a basically full sized semi truck, but without the sleeper compartment.
Another problem that I didn't think think to mention was the supply chain of replacement truck parts here in the US. There are so many trucks in operation that they HAVE to keep parts pretty standardized just to keep them all running. One thing Musk is complete ignoring about
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Actually no, no that STILL will not work because even those 'small local routs' STILL use full sized semi trucks. They just use what is a called a 'day cab'. Or a basically full sized semi truck, but without the sleeper compartment.
How much importance does does the truck's chassis have between the two styles of trucks? As far as I can tell the only real difference between a day cab and sleeper cab semi would be the elongated chassis on the sleeper which can support more or larger fuel tanks. There shouldn't be a difference in engine block or the GAWR of the chassis.
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Your point is only valid for OTR truckers, but there are plenty of trucks that are only used inside a small area. Take fuel trucks that deliver gas stations in and around a big city for example. They are the ones that would benefit from being electric, as ironic as it sounds - provided, of course, that electric trucks are allowed for dangerous goods transportation.
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Nope, this is just one more example of Mr. Musk trying to spin up for support to a technology just flat out won't work. Ironically, you might be able to make something like this work... but it would probably require an entire infrastructure of hot swappable batteries 'refueling stations' where you can stop and swap out batteries for fresh ones.
I agree he often promotes lofty and possibly unreasonable goals. But he's trying. He's moving the needle. I give Elon all my support.
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Funny thing all of you 'news for nerds' types didn't think to go actually talk to a trucker before flogging this idiotic idea. News flash: it takes more than a single well made vehicle to make an entire logistics infrastructure. And that's before you get to the hard reality that NO COMMERCIAL TRUCK will EVER sell with it has to shut down for half a day to recharge after 300 miles of driving.
I agree with you about the state of self-driving cars, but electric forklifts are in use all over the world. They don't "shut down for half a day to recharge", they have standby battery packs, and a convenient mechanism to swap out the battery into the charging area. I've seen at least ones where the battery lowers out the bottom onto casters, where it slides onto a rail on the charging rack, and where the user has to lift the battery packs out one at a time (lol), and ones where the forklift drives over th
Battery tech still blows (Score:2)
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Charging will be dirt cheap but a new battery will likely cost 50-80k USD before subsidy and won't last long if the vehicle is used commercially, much less than a car.
$80k is about 40 trips worth of diesel fuel in Europe. If the truck can make 80 trips before the battery wears out (and that's a lousy estimate). If it costs $1k to charge the battery then parity is achieved. If it can make more than 80 trips and costs less than $1k to charge the battery, then it is a net saving.
I think a modern LiFePo battery can take more than 80 charges. I have no idea how much it would actually cost to charge a battery for one of these things, but the fact that they are going into produ
Re: Battery tech still blows (Score:3, Informative)
Also here in the Netherlands, and I believe other parts of Europe
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Class 8 trucks are expensive AF and the diesel engine is most of the cost. Those big fancy diesels are not cheap to produce; they use expensive alloys, and lots of 'em. Even Iron isn't just Iron any more, and they're made out of much more than that. Yes, the electrics will continue to be more expensive for some time, but the delta is probably not so large as you imagine. And the engine is not just expensive to produce, it's expensive to maintain. You can spend $15k/year maintaining such a vehicle. EVs tend
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Teslas don't appear to be spectacularly well-made, and their interiors and amenities in particular are known for being less well-designed than other vehicles in their price class. Presumably they will gain more competence as they progress, but there's no sign that they're suffering from an excess of competence today.
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recharge (Score:2)
With proper logistics planning, the recharge is actually not a problem. You just time the operations nicely, or even use the loading/unloading times for (partial) recharges.
I live near a highway (Score:3)
I live not too far from highway. I usually cannot hear cars. But large trucks, yeah I hear them. And I guess I am breathing what they are putting out as well. I cannot wait for electric semis to become popular. Sure, in the early days, with a 300-mile limit, it will be a regional solution. But I'll take what I can get. As another poster noted, Seattle is about 150 miles from Portland, OR. An electric truck from Portland could travel to Seattle, charge while being unloaded and then be able to make the trip back. And I suspect most of the trucks on Hwy 26 near me are regional.
Electric semis? Get them on the road ASAP please.
Trucks. Saddle tanks (Score:3)
Perfect opportunity to develop swapable battery packs.
Nah. (Score:2)
Even a typical local truck is running 300-400 per day.
More importantly than "... a battery-powered heavy-duty vehicle that can compete with conventional diesels, which can travel up to 1,000 miles on a single tank of fuel...." is that diesel can fill up in about 20 mins. It doesn't take 12 hours to fill the tank.
What's the market again? (Score:2)
Since when did trucks sit around for extended periods of time?
The trailers, sure.
A lof of privately owned trucks are owned by a partnership of two or more drivers who work in shifts so the truck is on the road 90% of the time. When it's not moving, their capital investment isn't making them any money.
Even in little old back-water NZ, where you can't actually drive 1000 miles without ending up in an ocean and drivers have strict limits as to how long they're allowed to drive each day, trucks don't sit around
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Less Than Truckload (LTL) carriers on regional routes might work, and local routes would be easy.
Did any of you read the article? (Score:5, Informative)
Toyota already has a Fuel Cell Semi Truck (Score:2)
Vancouver has had fuel cell buses for ages (Score:2)
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/... [www.cbc.ca]
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I have often wondered why Tesla doesn't set a standard battery pack dimensions specification. Why couldn't you simply change battery packs like changing batteries in a flashlight or remote control. Even if the range for an electric long haul truck was 1000 miles you should be able to swap batteries packs in less time than it takes to fill a diesel fuel tank.
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They probably did the math and found that the infrastructure require for battery swap wasn't economical. Better Place tried and failed with battery swapping. Took about $1 million per swap location. I think Tesla did try a battery swap service for Model S in California between San Francisco and Los Angeles. Butt not a lot of people used it. You drive to your destination swap out the battery on the way and when you come back the same way you swap out again with your original battery pack.
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"Better Place tried and failed with battery swapping"
I wouldn't call that a definitive example. The Israeli car market is small & most are provided by employers.
The only car that Better Place had for sale was the Renault Fluence EV. They were pioneers, unsurprisingly got arrows.
They were pretty wasteful with their seed money but they did succeed in demonstrating that swapping could be done quickly & reliably.
Re:Not real useful (Score:5, Insightful)
Tesla actually did have a battery swap station. It turned out to be uneconomical and unpopular.
Link [youtube.com]
Rapid charges are generally good enough, and it's possible to make them even faster with higher charge powers and charger-provided coolant. And with Supercharger v3, there will be a battery buffer in the charger, so the charging station's max power is no longer limited by the grid.
For people talking about the "time wasted stopping to charge", several important points.
1. In the EU, you have to stop frequently. Minimum 45 minutes per 4 1/2 hours for commercial drivers. You can lose your license if you don't. So rapid charging stops aren't a slowdown at all.
2. Paying the driver is under 20% of the cost of shipping by truck, and amortizing the truck's capital cost a bit over 20%. But fuel is around 40% for the total cost (the rest is things like maintenance, insurance, etc). So if you can halve fuel costs in half and slash maintenance, you're cutting a quarter off of your shipping costs, which can more than pay for the additional drivers and trucks to compensate for the ~half an hour charging every ~3 hours.
3. This shouldn't need to be said... because it was in the article... but the guy was talking about regional haul shipping, not long haul. Believe it or not, not every shipment travels thousands of miles.
Now lets bring up the side benefits.
1. An EV drivetrain will be ridiculously powerful. I have little doubt that Tesla will be making these as the most powerful semis in the world, as it's much easier to do with an EV drivetrain. Hills will be laughed off. To be more specific, Tesla has stated that they plan to use the M3's drivetrain (which propels a 1600kg car from 0-60 in 5,1-5,6 seconds) in Tesla... except that they plan to have one motor for each wheel. That's going to be a crazy amount of power. And speaking of hills, they'll recoup the energy on the downslope.
2. Semis waste a huge amount of energy idling, to power accessory loads for the driver and/or the cargo. Because the engines are so large, idling guzzles huge amounts of fuel. A variety of solutions have been come up with over the years, such as auxilliary microgenerators and window-mounted "tethers" at truck stops (TSE) which provide climate control and 120V power for drivers. EVs, however, have what owners often refer to as "camping mode". Since you never have to idle an engine, they use only the power that is needed to provide climate control and accessory loads while you're parked. Sleeping in an EV is a quiet, perfectly climate-controlled experience, and depending on the weather usually only takes 1-2% of the battery per hour if you're not plugged in (nothing if you are).
3. An EV semi would not be affected by noise, pollution, and idling regulations, which limit or prohibit semi access to some areas, and which have become more common with time.
4. While the earlier price analysis was for the US, it's a much more extreme difference in other places in the world. Where I am, for example, diesel is about $7/gal, and they're looking to hike taxes on it soon - it'll probably end up around $8/gal. I don't know what percentage of a fleet operator's costs here are fuel, but it's going to be a lot more than in the US.
5. We're so far just comparing base vehicles. But Tesla is working on value-added features as well, such as EAP and platooning. The latter is, from a technical standpoint, much easier than EAP (locking onto a vehicle and holding position relative to it). Even if you don't take the driver out of the loop, you're saving a ton of energy for the trailing vehicles. Meaning not only reducing costs, but also that you can periodically swap who's the lead vehicle and extend the whole platoon's range.
Versus passenger EVs, semis have a number of other big things going for them.
1. Unlike the passenger vehicle market, the shipping industry is all about the numbers, all about the bottom line - and c
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To be more specific, Tesla has stated that they plan to use the M3's drivetrain
Model 3, not M3. When it comes to vehicles, M3 is already well established. If anyone tells you they're driving an M3, and they're not wearing fatigues and goggles, you can safely assume that they mean a BMW.
Re:Not real useful (Score:4, Informative)
Hang out anywhere that people discuss Teslas. The shorthand for the vehicles is the MS, MX and the M3 (there is no shorthand for the Roadster). Given that the Tesla Model 3 is going to be produced in numbers order of magnitude than the BMW M3 ever was, I'd recommend getting used to it sooner rather than later.
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Given that the Tesla Model 3 is going to be produced in numbers order of magnitude than the BMW M3 ever was
That Tesla Model 3 going to sell well is likely, but 32 years of production and around 260,000 BMW M3s produced so far really does make the M3 name well cemented.
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Yes, but according to the video the reason the it was uneconomical was lack of demand. Given where we are on the adoption curve for electric vehicles, it's hardly a surprise that such a thing would be unsustainable several years ago.
And in any case the economics and logistics for trucking are entirely different.
Still, as long as human truck drivers are still required, as long as the charge rate in miles of range/hour allows the truck to travel at least as far as the next legally mandated rest stop, there's
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1. In the EU, you have to stop frequently. Minimum 45 minutes per 4 1/2 hours for commercial drivers. You can lose your license if you don't. So rapid charging stops aren't a slowdown at all.
Believe it or not, in the US it is eleven hours. We have big problems with sleepy truckers [vanwinkles.com] on our highways. 300 miles would be in the vicinity of 4+ hours, and having a setup where they physically *have* to stop for a while every 4 hours would be a huge win for us.
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Re:Not real useful (Score:5, Informative)
They did. Tesla Model S battery can be replaced in 1 minute 35 seconds. They demonstrated it on stage back in 2013. And there was a pilot battery swap station built between LA and SF I believe. But there was no call for it. No one ever used it.
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They did. Tesla Model S battery can be replaced in 1 minute 35 seconds. They demonstrated it on stage back in 2013. And there was a pilot battery swap station built between LA and SF I believe. But there was no call for it. No one ever used it.
Not too surprising. You turn in your own battery, which you know the quality of, and get one that may be in worse condition, and pay for the privilege.
It's much like the VCR trade-in business, which didn't last long for much the same reason.
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Now only if there was a way to track charging cycles on a battery pack, and some way to electronically store it so that you could quickly read them in a flash...
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VCR trade-ins weren't popular, but VCR rentals were exceedingly popular. Suppose when you bought your car you had the option of either getting a brand-new factory battery or you could instead subscribe to a battery swapping service that has sufficient capacity for your needs and get a discount on the car equal to the cost of the battery pack. You wouldn't own the batteries, so you wouldn't have any qualms about getting a "lemon" battery -- if that did occur you would just return to the station and get a d
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it cost $50, you had to schedule your swap (it still took a mechanic - there's just so many connections to deal with, and it's so important to get it right), and ignoring the normal complaints about battery swap (who wants someone else's old battery? Who wants to stockpile batteries of any type, let alone of every type of vehicle on the road, with their constantly changing / advancing battery technology, all with their very different battery needs depending on vehicle type (form factor, power, energy, etc)
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There was no call for it because they charged a significant amount to 'rent' a battery pack. The problem was you had to go back to the same battery swap area later on and return the rental and pick up your (now fully charged) original battery pack. That, added to the cost of the rental (~$100???) made it a no-go for people that were used to either not paying for charge or having the charge buried in their home electricity bill.
On the other hand, if they charged $10 to swap out a battery pack for another w
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You can play "what if" this and that. But it's not only Tesla that tried it and found no interest. There's been other companies that have explored the battery swap idea. No one has ever found any enthusiasm for it amongst consumers.
People feel that they own their car, including it's battery. They don't want a battery of unknown history replacing the one they have.
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How are the chemtrails today?
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Why? Tesla said they did something, you said they lied about it. You've provided no supporting evidence that they've lied (just your feels).
Tesla on the other hand would lose large amount of credibility if they'd lied to customers about swapping batteries by only fast charging them. Something easily identifiable by somebody poking around their car.
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They did. Tesla Model S battery can be replaced in 1 minute 35 seconds. They demonstrated it on stage back in 2013.
No, they did not. They did a smoke and mirrors routine and never actually demonstrated the swap at all. Nobody saw any evidence that a swap indeed occurred during that show.
Even if they did, its one thing to have a quick swap when the car is already on the lift and multiple workers, who practiced like a pit stop, are standing with tools in hand when they say 'go'. But in the real world, where you have to pull into the garage, lift the car, sign the paperwork, wait on Jim and Phil, two guys not four, to finish the other car, then you've already significantly increase the swap time before any tool touches the car.
But, with that said, swaps still could be done fairly quickly I
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But, with that said, swaps still could be done fairly quickly
There are literally adhesives involved in Tesla battery installation, and the battery is a major component of the vehicle. It's doubtful that they can actually swap it as rapidly as they claim, especially since they have literally never produced any evidence for their claim.
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PMSL! drinkypoo thinks the tesla battery is glued on.
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Oh look, a conspiraloon. How entertaining!
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I see that you are employed by the oil industry. You must be sucking the cocks of the Cock brothers.
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Being an employee of the oil industry doesn't mean anything (except for grim thoughts about employment in 10-15 years). I, for one, don't even have a car, using cycling and public transport instead.
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"One company's 4000 Kelvin is not like the others..."
You can use a CD as a diffraction grating to look at the spectrum from the "bulb". Over the years, we've ended up with "Daylight" CFLs from a number of different manufacturers in our living room. Looking at their spectra with a CD, it's easy to see that they use different phosphors to achieve similar visual effects. My guess is that you'll find different spectra from different manufacturer's 4K LEDs
Re:Not real useful (Score:5, Informative)
I guess you missed the part where this is aimed at regional hauling, not long haul? For an example: Costco's Pacific Northwest distribution center is just outside of Seattle, WA. One of their busiest stores is in Portland, OR. That is under a 150mi trip. The truck would charge while being loaded/unloaded. This sort of truck would be PERFECT for these types of routes.
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Portland, OH to Seatle, WA is about 170 miles, ONE WAY.
A vehicle that gets 200-300 miles on a charge will only make it one way before needing to charge, and that's only a 3hr trip.
IMO, this thing needs to safely go a full truckers working day. If they limit themselves to 8hr/day of driving, and only do 60mph, that's 480 miles, and it needs some extra headroom to get to/from charging stations and to allow for reduced battery life, which will happen quickly. That means more than double the range (400-600 has
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With traffic SEA -> PDX is about 5-7 hours. It sucks now. Wee hours maybe 4-5 hours. The other weekend it took me 3.5 hours to get from Everett to Olympia.
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If they limit themselves to 8hr/day of driving [...]
Keep in mind that the government limits drivers to 11 hours a day of driving. [askthetrucker.com] Which is why long-haul drivers usually work in teams of two.
But you're right that 200-300 miles certainly doesn't seem like enough. About the only use is for doing things like going from a distribution center to a store (say, a grocery store).
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Most regional loads are from commercial premise to commercial premise. Those trips are really in the tens of kilometres range with an unload time measured in tens of minutes, on balance probably enough to carry over from trip to trip starting with a full charge and finishing with a low charge. Now electricity is way, way cheaper than diesel and commercial property managers have to consider the savings a charging station will provide in fuel cost for deliveries, even when they do not operate the vehicle but
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For those curious what an "unload time in tens of minutes" means for supercharging: given a sufficient charge rate (aka Supercharger V3, which is battery buffered so that the grid connection doesn't limit it), 20 minutes fills the first 50% of the pack, 20 more fills up to 80% (some can hit 80% in as little as 30m total), 20 more to 90%, and 40 more to 100%. So for a 200mi semi low on battery at arrival:
20 minute unload: 100 miles
40 minute unload: 160 miles
60 minute unload: 180 miles
For a 300mi semi low on
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speed is a major impactor of range, and semis drive slower than cars. Furthermore, if they have the aforementioned platooning, then all trailing vehicles will use significantly less power than the lead vehicle.
Maybe in your corner of the universe. Here, they drive as fast or faster than the cars, and above the speed limit. I personally cannot wait for autonomous trucks to arrive (probably concurrently with EVs) and have them run at 50 mph in the right lane. Sanity would finally return to our roads and something like 20% of all fatal accidents would magically disappear. Yes, something like less than 8% of the vehicles on US roads cause more than 20% of all fatalities, yet we're worried about those cars going 2mph
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If there were massive crashes every day, why would they be news?
In all honesty, though, European roads are designed better on average. They have roundabouts but few rotaries, while Americans have rotaries that cause maximal contention points and more crashes. They have long merge lanes and stronger lane-control rules, whereas American highways are designed with the briefest window to get on the highway or else you're getting right back off, and so you're contending with people trying to exit while you'
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"As for "range figures" - not only could things like solar trailers significantly improve range (as you note, that's a lot of surface area), but there's a more fundamental aspect "
Solar? I thought we were talking Seattle to Portland? Nifty places. But not noted for beach weather. The sun does come out occasionally in that part of the world. But not very reliably. Aside from which what business schedules deliveries that can only be made on sunny days?
Re:Not real useful (Score:5, Insightful)
You got me curious about the amount of power that could be produced by a semi trailer... since as you note, they're almost always outside. The large end of trailer sizes is 2,6m by 17,37m by 4,27m. We'll assume that the top and one long side have an average sun angle of 45 degrees and there's no solar on the front or rear of the trailer (although there could be). The top has an area of 45,16m^2 and the sides an area of 74,17m^2, for a combined area of 119,33m^2. On a sunny day, the angle-adjusted insolation is around 707W/m, so the trailer would be receiving 84,4kW and, at 22% panel efficiency, generating 18,6kW. While that's not enough for a fully "solar powered semi", it's definitely meaningful bonus power (that's enough to entirely power an electric SUV at highway speeds).
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In practice, you probably wouldn't put PV on the sides unless you have PV panels that are considerably more durable than the ones we have today. Still, just the panels on top could do quite a bit. Also, trailers often end up parked outside of warehouses (there tend to be a lot more trailers than tractors, for all sorts of logistical reasons), which means that with a little planning depots could arrange to generate a large percentage of the power they use to charge the tractors.
It seems to me that what the
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Not sure about regs in the US, but in the EU drivers of LGVs (Large Goods Vehicles - >3.5 tonne) are required to have a 45 minute break every 4.5 hours [crunch.co.uk]. So that would give a 45 minute break every 270 miles. Whether a lorry can be recharged within 45 minutes is another matter.
I was on holiday in Ireland and I hard plenty of radio adverts from the RSA (Road Safety Authority) reminding commercial drivers about obeying tacho rules.
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"So 170 miles."
Yes and no? For serious business dispatching, you maybe need worst case -- cold weather (i.e. -20C= -4F), elderly battery pack. max load, long load and unload times at a location near, but not at, a charger.
Still 170 miles?.
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"The truck would charge while being loaded/unloaded."
I would imagine so. But it sounds like you are likely going to need a whacking great custom installed charger at every destination, not just a 20 amp wall plug -- unless your plan includes your tractor sitting recharging in Portland for a week or two after every delivery
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I guess you missed the part where this is aimed at regional hauling, not long haul? For an example: Costco's Pacific Northwest distribution center is just outside of Seattle, WA. One of their busiest stores is in Portland, OR. That is under a 150mi trip. The truck would charge while being loaded/unloaded. This sort of truck would be PERFECT for these types of routes.
The key here is turnaround time. If, due to charging, I take an extra hour turnaround time. And if I have 50 turnarounds in my warehouse per day, then I lose 50 hours of transport time, which in a day is equivalent to, say, 5 trucks. So if I have to buy 5 more trucks and drivers to offset loss in transport time, and those trucks cost a lot more to begin with, then it might not work out as well financially.
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"Truck for regional hauling cost of hell of a lot less than this piece of shit will."
Not sure why this got modded down, it's a valid criticism.
I think the long term plan here is that the greatest cost and risk to shipping is the driver.
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Quite possibly because of "piece of shit", which doesn't add any useful information and only serves as flamebait.
And possibly the bad English, which requires the sentence to be read at least twice before it can be parsed.
"Trucks for regional hauling cost a lot less than this will" might have seen less downmodding.
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Except that's not true. The greatest cost for a semi operator is not the driver. It's diesel. Costs double what the driver costs on average.
And given that M3 is priced extremely aggressively [electrek.co] versus other vehicles in its class on a feature-for-feature, performance-for-performance basis (even ignoring tax credits and energy / maintenance savings), and that Tesla is working with established fleet operators on Semi, I have little doubt that Semi will priced very aggressively as well. Shipping companies are all
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Hmm, 38% fuel, 34% driver.
See table 9: http://www.atri-online.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/ATRI-Operational-Costs-of-Trucking-2014-FINAL.pdf [atri-online.org]
I would have expected a bit more on the driver, but Diesel costing double the cost of the driver is clearly wrong.
Your point is valid though. This can cut both fuel and personnel costs.
The massive change to trucking I'm expecting to see is *because* of the costs of drivers. You would not have such large trucks driving so fast with such heavy impact on the ro
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Maybe in your corner of it, homie.
The BMW M3 over its three-decade history has produced something like 100-150k total vehicles (it was around 100k as of 2010 [caranddriver.com], so estimating 150k as an upper bound is being generous). The Tesla Model 3 will be produced at 500k per year as of next year.
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The BMW M3 over its three-decade history has produced something like 100-150k total vehicles (it was around 100k as of 2010 [caranddriver.com], so estimating 150k as an upper bound is being generous). The Tesla Model 3 will be produced at 500k per year as of next year.
Naturally the M3 has lower production numbers than the model 3: it's a premium automobile out of the budget of most and with performance and handling features most would have a difficult time appreciating.
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Vans and trucks can work all around a city and suburbs.
How could longer range be added?
Swap the truck battery pack out for the trip.
No need to wait for a recharge for each truck.
The used battery pack out stays at the destination or along the way to the destination to get recharged.
The truck has a full battery pack.
The driver does the same number of hours as they are now. With a stop to swap a battery pack.
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semi trucks travel cross country mostly, where are you going to swap a battery pack when your 4 hours away from a town
Re:Not real useful (Score:5, Informative)
Some basic facts that everyone gets wrong almost every time there is a discussion of electric vehicles.
1) Maximum battery charge rate is not a constant. Empty batteries charge faster than full ones.
2) Maximum battery charge rate in miles/hour of charge is much greater in bigger batteries than it is in small ones.
3) At superchargers, the batteries are the limiting factor for charge rate, not the chargers.
That means at a super charger, it takes about an hour to go from almost any charge to 100% charge.
Truck drivers can only drive 10 out of every 14 hours and then need at least 10 hours off.
Driving 300 miles is going to take at least 4 hours.
So the driver drives for 4 hours, chargers for 1, drivers for 4 more hours, charges for 1 more hour, then drives 2 more hours before he has to stop anyway.
It would actually be more time efficient to stop more often for less time.
Drivers that want to cheat on their logs will be at a disadvantage with electric trucks.
Team drivers may not want to use them.
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LynwoodRooster the Luddite.
It doesn't take a few hours to charge a car. A Tesla supercharger will give a car an 80% charge in 30-40 minutes.
You're whining about range. No doubt you were whining about electric car range too a few years ago when it was about 100 miles. Now it's anything up to 350 miles.
This is the 1st generation of Semi. It's not where the technology will stop. At the moment, the use cases will be limited. But its just a start.
You'd do well to remember the dumbass comment from Cmdr Taco when
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The same arguments come every time electric cars are discussed:
But I usually drive an $insanelylong route and fuck the safety of everyone in my way, I want my 1000 Miles electric SUV
They will bitch about the rare earth mining ecological disasters when they get their 1000 Mile SUV.
I bet lots of people cursed at Ford "but my horse only needs water and carrots!" "what will this fucking petroleum ever do for us!?"
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The value would be in fleet operators. Drive from one warehouse to the next (think UPS hubs) and swap out the batteries. A company would keep batteries on charge and switch them out when the truck pulled in. Even better, put the batteries in teh trailer. That way the tractor could hitch to the next trailer and get going again while his trailer was being offloaded and recharged. Tractor would have a smaller battery that would allow it a limited range (ie around the warehouse property)
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But then your load would be stuck during recharging if you ever needed to recharge before unloading. Perhaps it would work well with short routes assuming your customer didn't mind providing you a recharge station. I suppose Walmart, Target and other companies with their own trucks would be fine with charging during unloading, but they may not get a full recharge in the time that they unload, and then the dock is occupied by a trailer that still needs to charge.
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But why do these have to go the whole way? Let's say you want run a shipment by truck from LA to Denver. Put one of these on the road in LA, take it to Las Vegas (270 mi). Unhitch, and have a ready to go replacement waiting in LV, and first truck starts charging, maybe to run the next run toward Denver for the next shipment or some other route. The second truck runs to Richfield UT, where the process repeats, then on to Grand Junction, CO, repeat and then run to Denver.
Let's say you get 50% usage from each
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Truck stops exist, and usually have cheaper diesel prices for commercial vehicles with the proper credentials. Why couldn't superchargers be added to these same chunks of real estate in order to enable faster charging times? Also, many countries have regulations on the books that say that commercial drivers must take breaks every X hours of driving - sounds like a good time to top up the battery while you are taking your mandated brake.
Tesla wouldn't be spending hundreds of millions on R&D to create a
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Maybe create a law that for the next 10 years, all-electric vehicles may tow an additional energy storage trailer (beyond the normal full-size load) with small dimensions.
Much like the coal cars on old trains?
I see at least one problem with that, and that's theft. Because they have to be easily interchangeable to make sense, they would also be an easy target.
So better add a caboose with a couple of gun men too.
Re:100% completely incomptable with modern logisti (Score:5, Interesting)
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I wish they would get rid of the diesel busses in cities. Chinese companies have been building 150 mile range large busses for a while now, and most new busses sold in China re electric. Meanwhile ours still spew out black soot right into people's faces.
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Meanwhile ours still spew out black soot right into people's faces.
Those vehicles should never have been permitted to have a ground-level exhaust. It's slightly better for people around the roads, but spectacularly worse for the people actually on them.
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I don't think you're looking at the whole picture here, though. Traditional t
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The idea that you're going to have fleet of trucks that will ONLY get 200 or 300 miles on a charge is LAUGHABLE worthless in any but the most specialized situations.
For long haul, sure. But that's hardly the only type of truck in use on roads and highways today. All of the big courier and postal companies have fleets of trucks used just for commercial pickups and deliveries. These trucks don't run all day long -- they often run a route in the morning delivering packages, and a route in the afternoon picking up packages. They only route starting and ending at their local distribution centre, and spend a good deal of time stopped, and won't put 200 - 300 miles on the
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One of the things that Trucks hate the most is ANY down time.
Not having emotions, trucks don't hate anything. Drivers hate down time, but drivers are going away.
The idea that you're going to have fleet of trucks that will ONLY get 200 or 300 miles on a charge is LAUGHABLE worthless in any but the most specialized situations.
As it turns out, there are numerous cases where an electric class 8 truck is idea, like short-haul deliveries, or port drayage.
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Only cheap lithium batteries explode, as they don't care enough to design/test any sort of pressure release valve in case of failure.
They burn, like diesel or petrol does. The explosion is the pressuring building up inside rupturing the casing, more like a pop. It just so happens that a bunch of the gas created is flammable, so the escaping gas can ignite in a big fireball.
It's not an explosion though.
Re:NIKOLA (Score:4, Informative)
As soon as you talk hydrogen you lose all credibility.
It's horrible for the environment, is unavailable anywhere, it's extremely dangerous to use, difficult to contain, and it's more expensive than other fuels.
Hydrogen is simply not a viable energy storage medium. It's only being pushed by oil companies who are afraid of people moving away from fossil fuels and refueling at home without them.
Natural gas is more efficient, easier to work with, better for the environment, cheaper, and more readily available than hydrogen. Being that pretty much all commercial hydrogen comes from natural gas anyway you're far better off to just use the natural gas directly.
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But...
The things he does are not hard to do. And rarely profitable. Anyone can throw money at a problem, with no hope of long-term recuperation. You'd be better off donating bikes to kids if that's what you want to do, though.
Electric vehicles haven't changed that much. Tesla haven't "invented" anything even worth monetising a patent for. They just put existing (better than it used to be) tech into a vehicle. They cut corners on places, they threw money at it, they made grandiose claims, and sunk a to