India is Rolling Out Trains With Solar-powered Coaches That'll Save Thousands of Litres of Diesel (qz.com) 136
An anonymous reader shares a report: India's massive diesel-guzzling railway network is getting serious about its experiments with solar. On July 14, Indian Railways rolled out its first train with rooftop solar panels that power the lights, fans, and information display systems inside passenger coaches. Although the train will still be pulled by a diesel-powered locomotive, a set of 16 solar panels atop each coach will replace the diesel generators that typically power these appliances. The railways estimate that a train with six solar-powered coaches could save around 21,000 litres (5,547 gallons) of diesel every year, worth around $108,000. In 2014, Indian Railways consumed 2.6 billion litres of diesel, accounting for around 70% to the network's total fuel bill of $4.4 billion. The first of these trains will be pressed into service on the suburban railway network of New Delhi, one of the world's most polluted cities, before two dozen more coaches are fitted with similar rooftop solar systems. Retrofitting each coach with these system, including an inverter to optimise power generation and battery for storing surplus power, costs around $14,000.
Costs around Rs9 lakh? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
You might lakh to know that a lakh is 100,000.
Re:Costs around Rs9 lakh? (Score:4, Informative)
Unlike western societies, where we generally use every 3rd power of 10 as a reference (thousand, million, billion), India uses the 5th power of 10 - "lakh" is 10^5 (which is one hundred thousand), and "crore" is 10^10 (which it 10 billion) as its main "reference" powers.
Rs9 lakh should be parsed similar to how $1bn would be parsed in the US - 9 lakh rupees, which is 900,000 rupees. At current exchange rates, this is around $14,000 US.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
The article was probably written in Indian English, which is one of the most common languages in India. It's often preferred as the inter-regional language (most regions in India have an indigenous language) as Hindi (the main other choice) is often disliked by Muslim communities.
Rs is the symbol for Rupees. Lakh has already been explained.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm sure you have more knowledge about the Hindi issue than I do. I have both Indian Hindu and Indian Muslim friends and they all pretty much said that due to inter-community tensions that Hindi was less likely to be spoken by the Muslim community (which would speak regional language, followed by either English or Urdu).
But they were all English-speaking emigres to the US, so their experience may not be typical in a country with over a billion people. Thanks!
Re: (Score:2)
That's really interesting. Thanks for the local insight!
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Whoever has points please downgrade the parent A crore is not 10^10 a crore is 100 lacs
Western System
1,000 Thousand
1,000,000 Million
1,000,000,000 Billion
1,000,000,000,000 Trillion
Indian System
1,000 Hazaar
1,00,000 Lac/lakh
1,00,00,000 Crore
1,00,00,00,000 Arub
1,00,00,00,00,000 Khurub
So a crore is 10 million not 10 billion
9 Lakh is 900000 Rupees. With 1 USD=60 INR = 15000 USD approx (the rate is a little more than 60 to the dollar)
Yes the Indian system is more confusing but its been around longer and people hav
Re: (Score:2)
Western System
1,000 Thousand
1,000,000 Million
1,000,000,000 Billion
1,000,000,000,000 Trillion
well, there are 2 naming systems for this in the west: : ... which is I believe more for the French part of the west.
the one above and
million : 1.000.000 10E6
milliard : 1.000.000.000 10e9
billion: 1.000.000.000.000 10e12
billiard : 1.000.000.000.000.000 10e15
trillion : 1.000.000.000.000.000.000 10e18
etc
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Zelda.
Hanging off the cars (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
In San Francisco we charge tourists $7.00 for the privilege of hanging off the cable cars.
Great idea (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3)
Maybe that's the whole idea of this initiative. If those people on top of the trains are freeloaders who aren't paying, this whole solar panels thing may just be an excuse to get rid of them for good.
Re: (Score:2)
If those people on top of the trains are freeloaders who aren't paying, this whole solar panels thing may just be an excuse to get rid of them for good.
I can't see that stopping them. Even overhead electric catenary doesn't (NSFW) :-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
They'll probably have to put spikes on the roof, similar to pigeon spikes:
https://www.google.com/search?... [google.com]
Re: (Score:1)
How will the solar panels work.. (Score:3, Funny)
...with hundreds of people sitting on them?
how is this going to work? (Score:1)
How is this going to work with all the passengers standing on the solar panels?
http://www.my-travel-experience.com/upload/main/13/1n5jrlt710.jpg
Units (Score:3, Informative)
Rs 28,592 crore = USD 4.5 billion, approximately
Rs 9 lakh = USD 14,000
Re:Units (Score:4, Informative)
Rs = symbol for Rupees (the local currency)
lakh = x1,00,000 or x100,000
crore = x1,00,00,000 or x10,000,000
India separates numbers differently than most of the West - the first comma is at a power of three, all the rest are at powers of 2. Tens, hundreds, thousands, lakhs and crores are combined in various ways (with some older terms like arab, padma, neel and shankh occasionally used for very large numbers too)
one, ten, one hundred, one thousand, ten thousand, lakh, ten lakh, one crore, ten crore, one arab / one hundred crore, one thousand crore, ten thousand crore, one lakh crore, ten lakh crore, one crore crore, one padma / ten crore crore, etc.
Re: (Score:2)
Er... (Score:4, Insightful)
...if the roof has solar panels, where do most of the passengers sit?
I've been on Indian trains....the roof is a significant part of the carriage capacity.
Re:Er... (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:3)
You clearly have never taken a train in India. The guy with a cricket bat will get swarmed and thrown off the train by the dozens to hundreds of people that ride the roofs every day. Commuter and even many long distance trains in India are packed to the gills overflowing to inter-wagon platforms/the roofs and run insufficiently frequently to be able to say "just take the next one".
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
They already don't have enough money to improve their infrastructure enough to make riding on the tops of the cars a non issue and you want to hire blackwater to "solve the problem". Do you also advocate pointing a revolver at your face to "solve" toothaches? "your imagination" isn't solving any problem that needs solving.
Re: (Score:2)
But they have it for the purchase, installation and maintenance of the panels? Maybe should have thought that argument through a little...
and you want to hire blackwater
Jesus, hyperbole much?
Do you also advocate pointing a revolver at your face to "solve" toothaches?
That answers the hyperbole question...
your imagination" isn't solving any problem that needs sol
Re: (Score:2)
They have the money for panels that will be saving money on diesel fuel, not for hiring thousands of people to stop people from travelling on train roofs. Do try to use your brain next time, will you?
Who is it that was proposing to hire a dozen or more men -- per train -- and barbed wire to stop people from riding on the train roofs? Oh, yeah that was you. What, you _don't_ like hyperbole when it's pointed at you? Poor, poor you.
Again, you have literally no idea of the conditions on trains in India. Stop pr
Re: (Score:2)
Still a far cry from the world's most expensive mercenary outfit.
Again, you have literally no idea of the conditions on trains in India.
Oh cool, you do strawman arguments as well!
Stop proposing idiotic "solutions".
That's OK, at least I didn't write this:
They have the money for panels that will be saving money on diesel fuel, not f
Re: (Score:2)
What, you think that Blackwater only takes a single contract at a time and employs the entirety of it's personnel on it? It's a strange strange world you live in. For the rest of us, employing thousands "security consultants" with cricket bats is perfectly up Blackwater's line of business.
You've never actually _taken_ any train rides in India, so to you, my arguments are far fetched strawman. To me and all those who _have_ taken Indian trains my arguments are realty. But you still think that your imaginatio
Re: (Score:2)
Another strawman! Will he make the trifecta? Can. He. Go. All. The. Way?
my arguments are far fetched strawman.
That's not how it works. That's not how any of this works.
But you still think that your imagination trumps everyone else's reality.
GOOOOAAAAALLLLL!!!!!
Re: (Score:2)
A strawman isn't any argument you disagree with or cannot prove you twit, it's a ridiculous argument that you pretend your opponent supports that makes you look good when you knock it down.
As you have no idea of the conditions on indian trains and _I_ and others who have commented do, my arguments are what is called _truth_ and yours the evasive maneuvering of a twit afraid to be caught out prevaricating.
But then, in your imagination your lies and inventions trump real-world experience.
Re: (Score:2)
Hence how a dude with a cricket bat becomes Blackwater.
As you have no idea of the conditions on indian trains and _I_ and others who have commented do
This is the third time you've brought this up, which I find hilarious since that was never a point of contention between us. Your time would be better served bitching at me about the things we disagree on.
and yours the evasive mane
Re: (Score:2)
lets count a few lies and evasions.
You start off with "one guy" I correct you, he'll just get tossed off. You opine with two guys or a dozen give em tasers/MP5's. I reply that dozens of guys with MP5's * thousands of trains = blackwater. You either have the attention span of a gnat or are lying when you pretend to misunderstand how _you_ inflated a guy with a cricket bat into a substantial army & gnats don't know how to type.
TFA specifically says that the panels will save money through diminished diesel
Re: (Score:2)
So let me help you out: You focused on the specifics of the post (good for you!) and not the theme, which was: I don't fucking care what the method is, find one that works since a dude with a cricket wasn't, according to you, enough. You chose the most extreme example out of many and ran as fast as you could with it. Does that make you technically correct? Yes it does! Congrats, you are the best kind of correct! Shame you still have a massive u
Re: (Score:2)
I've never been to India, but from what I hear from folks who have, the guy with the cricket bat will probably pocket a rupee or three from every roof passenger and in return will help them up and down, and assist in getting their baggage on and off the roof.
Re: (Score:2)
India is a pretty big place. 1.3 billion people. Sure, in some places people sit on the roof, but in other places the infrastructure is more modern and less crowded.
TFA mentions that those trains do 80 kph, which is way too fast to be hanging on to without large numbers of people being killed. The ones covered in people move very slowly.
Re: (Score:2)
I said the same thing a few weeks back and got modbombed. Bastards!
Billions minus thousands is = ? (Score:2)
But if this use of solar panels puts money in the pockets of solar panel makers and make them reduce their costs and eventually utility scale/grid scale solar power generation happens ... then we are talking about something truly momentous.
Re: (Score:3)
The panels pay for themselves by almost an order of magnitude in the first year. If that is a dent, it is a big one.
Re:Billions minus thousands is = ? (Score:4, Insightful)
The panels pay for themselves by almost an order of magnitude in the first year. If that is a dent, it is a big one.
More accurately, the article claims they might.
Re: (Score:3)
The numbers in the article suggest break-even in about a year. It seems like a fairly straightforward win for the Indian rail system, and using more solar panels makes them cheaper for everyone else.
That's $20 +/ gallon diesel (Score:5, Insightful)
21,000 liters ~5,000 gallons = 108,000 dollars of fuel ?
Yeah something is wrong with the story from the get go.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:That's $20 +/ gallon diesel (Score:4, Informative)
The article in Quartz states 21,000 liters of fuel costing Rs 12 lakh ($18,000) which is more realistic so the summary is the culprit here.
Re: (Score:2)
Which is pretty good as I saw the other conversion of the panel costs being 14,000$. The 18,000$ is per year, meaning the solar panels pays for themselves the first year and assuming say a 20 year lifespan give a cost savings of 360,000$. Seems a no brainer to me (assuming those estimates are correct).
Jokes of Indians sitting on them aside and all of course...
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
21,000 liters ~5,000 gallons x 12 months x $1.8 each gallon ~ 108,000 dollars of fuel
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Seems reasonable. But I doubt it's a "conversion" More of an "installation. They probably need backup at night and on cloudy days. That'd be the existing diesel generation which will be retained but won't have to run all the time?
Re: (Score:2)
Good guess. The "hotel power" (lights and whatnot) on a train comes from what's called a HEP generator. Not all engines (at least in the US) have one built in, so they are sometimes installed in one or more coaches on the train. Turning off the HEP directly saves fuel.
surplus power? (Score:1)
If there is surplus power, then throw in an air conditioner and a refrigerator or two
Good job India (Score:2)
Good job India- the big question though is: why haven't countries been using solar panels on mass transit roofs before now? I'm sure it could save lots of money most places. ... well maybe not mass transit in subways.
Re: (Score:2)
In-flight electricity in vehicles is way less cost competitive with solar/TEG than the electricity at your home given it needs to be produced from fuel through a rather inefficient process, so it boils down to whether the extra weight and potential need for maintenance is worth it... and in the case of solar whether the panels can be kept safe.
So yes, it's a missed opportunity.
Re:Good job India (Score:4, Insightful)
Good job India- the big question though is: why haven't countries been using solar panels on mass transit roofs before now? I'm sure it could save lots of money most places. ... well maybe not mass transit in subways.
First, understand that these panels are not to help move the train, only to power on board electrical equipment (lights, etc).
Although the train will still be pulled by a diesel-powered locomotive, a set of 16 solar panels atop each coach will replace the diesel generators that typically power these appliances.
The first question I have is; How much to install more energy efficient equipment on the train? Second question is; How does that cost/benefit compare to added solar panels and weight. Solar panels only help part of the time, energy efficiency improvements will help 24/7. Unfortunately these articles never give us that kind of critical information, they are more about the symbolic wonder of solar panels.
Re: (Score:2)
The first question I have is; How much to install more energy efficient equipment on the train? Second question is; How does that cost/benefit compare to added solar panels and weight. Solar panels only help part of the time, energy efficiency improvements will help 24/7. Unfortunately these articles never give us that kind of critical information, they are more about the symbolic wonder of solar panels.
I think it's safe to assume that the rail company will have thought of that and done the calculations, don't you?
In any case, why not do both? In fact, that's probably what they are doing. It's a shame that TFA doesn't mention it, but I seriously doubt that there is any symbolism going on here.
Re: (Score:2)
I think it's safe to assume that the rail company will have thought of that and done the calculations, don't you?
No, I absolutely don't. Its much easier politically to get support for the gesture of installing solar panels that for refurbishment.
Re: (Score:2)
What "support" would they need? It's their money. The sums on pay back time suggest less than a year.
Re: (Score:2)
What "support" would they need? It's their money. The sums on pay back time suggest less than a year.
It take money up front to do this type of work, not covered in operating budgets. You have to get the funding. Payback in a year is a guess that doesn't sound plausible or in line with other solar system payback periods.
Re: (Score:2)
You can do the maths yourself. The cost of electricity from the diesel generator is given in the article, and it's high because burning diesel in a relatively small system (compared to a power station) is not very efficient.
Typical domestic payback periods in western Europe are well under 5 years now. India has better insolation... Run the numbers yourself if you like, it's all in the article.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Other countries have additional cost factors that don't make this as good of an ROI like India.
1) Labor cost is usually higher in most other countries. This jacks up the installation & maintenance costs of panels.
2) Other than Russia, China, & Japan, most other nations do not have the Diesel rail volume & revenues to justify this retrofit. Note India isn't doing this to their electrical nor AC compartments. They are doing this for their low cost metal boxes on wheels.
3) Many countries do not
Re: (Score:2)
2) Other than Russia, China, & Japan, most other nations do not have the Diesel rail volume & revenues to justify this retrofit. Note India isn't doing this to their electrical nor AC compartments. They are doing this for their low cost metal boxes on wheels.
Minor nitpick; almost all passenger rail travel in the US & Canada is diesel, except for some of the northeast US, a small portion of Chicago's commuter lines, and one Montreal commuter line. There is volume. Revenue is another story...
4) Many countries have a cheaper and more reliable electrical grid that makes panels nothing more than a PR stunt. For these, it makes more sense to co-locate the panels and provide energy directly to the rail system; rather than run around on the cars (ie: US, Japan, & EU).
This is the better way to solve the problem; it doesn't matter what generated the power and you can use it to move the train as well (bigger savings).
Re: (Score:2)
What I'm wondering is why automobiles don't have solar panel roofs to keep some rudimentary climate control running while the car is sitting in the parking lot.
Re: (Score:2)
Do the math on how much actual power would be produced by those panels, compare it to the power needed to provide even a moderate level of climate control, and you will have your answer.
Re: (Score:2)
I don't mean heating/winter since that isn't really a problem (if there's enough sun for a solar panel the interior is warm enough).
For summer, simply running the fans would keep the interior the same temperature as the exterior, and would move cooler air over surfaces that are heating up with the sun. It doesn't need to be 72 degrees when you get inside, just keep it down to 1-2 degrees warmer than the outside temperature. This would also stop hot car deaths.
Re: (Score:2)
I know what you meant. I'll help you with the math since you couldn't be bothered to do it yourself.
Let's take the earth average sun at 1000 W/m^2. A typical solar panel used on a car will convert about 10% of that power into electricity, so 100 watts. A typical cabin fan used in a car will draw somewhere between 10 amps and 30 amps depending on size of the car and such, at 12 volts this means 120 to 360 watts.
Assume that the solar panel shields the car from the heat by converting it to electricity you h
Re: (Score:2)
why haven't countries been using solar panels on mass transit roofs before now?
Every time solar power comes up on Slashdot someone will mention how prices of solar panels have dropped in recent years. That could explain the reluctance to have solar panels on train car rooftops. It could be that the price of solar was too high until recently. Even if it was economically feasible years ago it could be that the people that plan such things saw how solar prices were falling and were just waiting until it hit bottom and stabilized.
If prices for solar panels were dropping by 13% (or what
If I understand it right (Score:2)
6-car trains at $14k/car comes $84k to retrofit and each train saves $108k/year on diesel. If you're getting a $24k return for each train you finish with the refit, just in the first year... awesome.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Something is not right with the math. 5k gallons of diesel doesn't cost $100k.
Just did the math and there does seem to something off. The of a litre of diesel in India is about 0.9 USD and there are about 3.8 litres in a gallon, so 3.8 * 5000 * 0.9 = 17100 USD
Source for diesel price: http://www.mypetrolprice.com/d... [mypetrolprice.com] , noting this is just an estimate.
Re: (Score:3)
The summary is wrong. According to the article, the fuel savings is Rs 12 lakh (1.2 million rupees) per train with six retrofitted cars. The cost to retrofit one car is Rs 9 lakh (900,000 rupees).
So, it should take about 4.5 years to break even.
Re: (Score:2)
> Consumer solar panels here in the US have a lifespan of 20 years ... which is still a lot. another 20, and they have still 64% ...
that's usually until they have only 80% power left
re: (Score:1)
Why not integrate with the locomotive? (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm surprised that this isn't already integrated with the locomotive. The locomotive is almost certainly diesel-electric, so why did they have separate generators on the cars, rather than just drawing from the massive diesel generators in the locomotive? And if they add solar panels, to all of the cars why use them to charge batteries, rather than just feeding any excess juice to the locomotive, allowing it to burn a little less fuel to keep the train moving? I suppose this might result in a little bit of waste when the train is sitting still, so I suppose it's worth having enough battery capacity to capture that energy, but most of the time it's sitting still it's probably in a train station which could likely use the power.
Note that I know almost nothing about any of this stuff, so this isn't a "they're stupid for not doing that" post; I'm actually asking questions. I suppose the simple answer may well be "Because the locomotive isn't presently designed to do that".
Re: (Score:3)
I'm surprised that this isn't already integrated with the locomotive. The locomotive is almost certainly diesel-electric, so why did they have separate generators on the cars, rather than just drawing from the massive diesel generators in the locomotive?
The trains use air brakes and don't depend on any other connections. If the air brake connection is broken because cars are separated, then the brakes are automatically applied.
Re: (Score:2)
why did they have separate [electrical] generators on the cars, rather than just drawing from the massive diesel generators in the locomotive?
The trains use air brakes and don't depend on any other connections. If the air brake connection is broken because cars are separated, then the brakes are automatically applied.
What has that got to do with the electrical power supplies?
Re: (Score:2)
What has that got to do with the electrical power supplies?
They've literally found it easier to install diesel gensets in the train cars than one big fat inverter (or inverter bank) in the locomotive which has to deal with the varying output voltage of the engine at different speeds, and you're sitting here asking what the simplicity of the rest of the system has to do with the electrical power supplies?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Surely it's closer to 3% than 30%. Exactly how much power does a train coach car need? Modern illumination needs virtually no power in the grand scheme of things. Likewise displays. Air conditioning? ... maybe ... The big power drain of a train is trundling maybe 30 metric tons per car (plus the engine) around the countryside.
Re: (Score:2)
Surely it's closer to 3% than 30%.
Actually, closer to 0.03% than to 3%. The locomotive needs... say 55000nm of torque, while the lights, these days, use pretty much negligible electricity.
I suspect that the savings come from the reduced weight rather than the actual electricity usage (removing those smaller diesel generators per car).
Re: (Score:1)
They are feeding off the diesel generator on the locomotive in a traditional car, that diesel generator creates power by burning diesel... not drawing that power lets that generator generate less electricity and burn less fuel.
Technical details are sparse in the articles that I can find... but if they can manage to detach from the locomotive power entirely, that means fewer connections to the locomotive, which depending on the use case could also be beneficial.
As for the extra juice being dumped into the mo
Re: (Score:1)
(example) [youtube.com]
This is most likely due to the sheer length of these trains--it isn't even unusual for premium services
Re: (Score:2)
It's a good question if you're not familiar with the typical setup.
The cars generally use HEP [wikipedia.org], a 480v AC distribution system.
In most locomotives the main diesel engine supplies electricity only to the traction motors. Basically the traction motors us a variable amount of volts and amps, and different voltages, than the passenger cars which want a fairly constant voltage. That's not to say this is a universal truth, one that has a single engine turning both the generator for the traction motors and for HEP
Re: (Score:2)
It's just a practicality thing. You could do it, but aside from the engineering complexity (which will inevitably result in reduced reliability) the amount of energy left over after running the carriages is probably not worth the effort. Maybe in a future version where reliability has reached very high levels and been proven.
Re: (Score:2)
Actually, here in the USA, Amtrak locomotives and locomotives used by commuter railroads use a system called "head-end power," where a diesel-powered generator in a diesel-electric locomotives provides power to all the attached passenger cars through a special power cable system. I believe something like that have been around since the late 1930's.
Sold to them by Lyle Lanley??? (Score:2)
Won't work (Score:4, Funny)
Solar cells do not generate energy when there are people sitting on top of them.
In other news (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
Its not the govts job to provide any of these. India is a capitalist free market economy. If people want to shit in the fields and hence add organic fertilizer to their organic crops and also be more in commune with nature who is the govt to tell them to build toilets. What are you? Some kind of communist?
0.0008% (Score:2)
Summary claims 21,000 liters of diesel saved over 2.6 billion liters yearly usage.
Are they really boasting about a .0008% offset?I agree there is no small gains, but I am not sure it is worth the news.
Re: (Score:2)
Toting around rooftops full of smelly, dirty, non-paying parasites costs money in wasted fuel. Just removing the freeloaders and grifters alone will improve fuel economy considerably.
Who says the roof riders aren't paying? If not, then the ones inside are probably not paying either.
Re: (Score:2)
India already has a vast electrified rail network and it continues to grow. But the cost of that is pretty big and maintenance is hard. So many lines running through remote locations and/or steep grades are still diesel. Diesel maybe dirty, but per pound, it is pretty efficient, easy to transport, reliable, easy to fix, and requires minimum skills to work with.