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India is Rolling Out Trains With Solar-powered Coaches That'll Save Thousands of Litres of Diesel (qz.com) 136

An anonymous reader shares a report: India's massive diesel-guzzling railway network is getting serious about its experiments with solar. On July 14, Indian Railways rolled out its first train with rooftop solar panels that power the lights, fans, and information display systems inside passenger coaches. Although the train will still be pulled by a diesel-powered locomotive, a set of 16 solar panels atop each coach will replace the diesel generators that typically power these appliances. The railways estimate that a train with six solar-powered coaches could save around 21,000 litres (5,547 gallons) of diesel every year, worth around $108,000. In 2014, Indian Railways consumed 2.6 billion litres of diesel, accounting for around 70% to the network's total fuel bill of $4.4 billion. The first of these trains will be pressed into service on the suburban railway network of New Delhi, one of the world's most polluted cities, before two dozen more coaches are fitted with similar rooftop solar systems. Retrofitting each coach with these system, including an inverter to optimise power generation and battery for storing surplus power, costs around $14,000.
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India is Rolling Out Trains With Solar-powered Coaches That'll Save Thousands of Litres of Diesel

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  • Not sure what unit of measure you are using, or how many that is.
    • You might lakh to know that a lakh is 100,000.

    • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @01:00PM (#54840275)

      Unlike western societies, where we generally use every 3rd power of 10 as a reference (thousand, million, billion), India uses the 5th power of 10 - "lakh" is 10^5 (which is one hundred thousand), and "crore" is 10^10 (which it 10 billion) as its main "reference" powers.

      Rs9 lakh should be parsed similar to how $1bn would be parsed in the US - 9 lakh rupees, which is 900,000 rupees. At current exchange rates, this is around $14,000 US.

      • Nice explanation. Just confusing since the topic was translated into English, but used a word that very few English speakers would know. The monetary unit in rupees would be fine, but I didn't even recognize lakh as a numeric unit.
        • The article was probably written in Indian English, which is one of the most common languages in India. It's often preferred as the inter-regional language (most regions in India have an indigenous language) as Hindi (the main other choice) is often disliked by Muslim communities.

          Rs is the symbol for Rupees. Lakh has already been explained.

      • by Anonymous Coward
        A crore is 10^7, or 100 lakhs, or 10 million. Not 10^10. They now measure things in a 'lakh crores', which is equal to a trillion.
      • Crore is 10 million, not 10 billion. Also written as 1,00,00,000 with the commas separating lakhs and crores (and thousands)
      • by ghoul ( 157158 )

        Whoever has points please downgrade the parent A crore is not 10^10 a crore is 100 lacs

        Western System

        1,000 Thousand
        1,000,000 Million
        1,000,000,000 Billion
        1,000,000,000,000 Trillion

        Indian System

        1,000 Hazaar
        1,00,000 Lac/lakh
        1,00,00,000 Crore
        1,00,00,00,000 Arub
        1,00,00,00,00,000 Khurub

        So a crore is 10 million not 10 billion

        9 Lakh is 900000 Rupees. With 1 USD=60 INR = 15000 USD approx (the rate is a little more than 60 to the dollar)

        Yes the Indian system is more confusing but its been around longer and people hav

        • Western System

          1,000 Thousand
          1,000,000 Million
          1,000,000,000 Billion
          1,000,000,000,000 Trillion

          well, there are 2 naming systems for this in the west:
          the one above and :
          million : 1.000.000 10E6
          milliard : 1.000.000.000 10e9
          billion: 1.000.000.000.000 10e12
          billiard : 1.000.000.000.000.000 10e15
          trillion : 1.000.000.000.000.000.000 10e18
          etc ... which is I believe more for the French part of the west.

      • Tom Scott did a good explaination of number dividers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
  • That's nice now if they can just stop people from trying to leap onto the engine fronts or sides of cars they may have something. Seem some crazy videos of the train system in India its like something from a 100 years ago.
  • Great idea (Score:5, Funny)

    by Nidi62 ( 1525137 ) on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @12:46PM (#54840157)
    I can't see how anything [google.com] could possibly keep an idea like this from working.
  • by YuppieScum ( 1096 ) on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @12:46PM (#54840161) Journal

    ...with hundreds of people sitting on them?

  • by Anonymous Coward

    How is this going to work with all the passengers standing on the solar panels?

    http://www.my-travel-experience.com/upload/main/13/1n5jrlt710.jpg

  • Units (Score:3, Informative)

    by ramsun ( 62627 ) on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @12:49PM (#54840187) Homepage

    Rs 28,592 crore = USD 4.5 billion, approximately

    Rs 9 lakh = USD 14,000

    • Re:Units (Score:4, Informative)

      by brianerst ( 549609 ) on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @02:07PM (#54840805) Homepage

      Rs = symbol for Rupees (the local currency)
      lakh = x1,00,000 or x100,000
      crore = x1,00,00,000 or x10,000,000

      India separates numbers differently than most of the West - the first comma is at a power of three, all the rest are at powers of 2. Tens, hundreds, thousands, lakhs and crores are combined in various ways (with some older terms like arab, padma, neel and shankh occasionally used for very large numbers too)

      one, ten, one hundred, one thousand, ten thousand, lakh, ten lakh, one crore, ten crore, one arab / one hundred crore, one thousand crore, ten thousand crore, one lakh crore, ten lakh crore, one crore crore, one padma / ten crore crore, etc.

    • Solar power: spend billions to save millions!
  • Er... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by argStyopa ( 232550 ) on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @12:50PM (#54840191) Journal

    ...if the roof has solar panels, where do most of the passengers sit?

    I've been on Indian trains....the roof is a significant part of the carriage capacity.

    • Re:Er... (Score:4, Funny)

      by Captain Splendid ( 673276 ) <capsplendid@COFF ... m minus caffeine> on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @12:52PM (#54840205) Homepage Journal
      Just need one train guard with a cricket bat. Problem solved.
      • by phayes ( 202222 )

        You clearly have never taken a train in India. The guy with a cricket bat will get swarmed and thrown off the train by the dozens to hundreds of people that ride the roofs every day. Commuter and even many long distance trains in India are packed to the gills overflowing to inter-wagon platforms/the roofs and run insufficiently frequently to be able to say "just take the next one".

        • Then get two guys, or a dozen. Or give them tasers or MP5s. Use barbed wire. Run the ground wire through the panel frames. Whatever works. Just don't make your lack of imagination my problem.
          • by phayes ( 202222 )

            They already don't have enough money to improve their infrastructure enough to make riding on the tops of the cars a non issue and you want to hire blackwater to "solve the problem". Do you also advocate pointing a revolver at your face to "solve" toothaches? "your imagination" isn't solving any problem that needs solving.

            • They already don't have enough money to improve their infrastructure enough to make riding on the tops of the cars a non issue

              But they have it for the purchase, installation and maintenance of the panels? Maybe should have thought that argument through a little...

              and you want to hire blackwater

              Jesus, hyperbole much?

              Do you also advocate pointing a revolver at your face to "solve" toothaches?

              That answers the hyperbole question...

              your imagination" isn't solving any problem that needs sol
              • by phayes ( 202222 )

                They have the money for panels that will be saving money on diesel fuel, not for hiring thousands of people to stop people from travelling on train roofs. Do try to use your brain next time, will you?

                Who is it that was proposing to hire a dozen or more men -- per train -- and barbed wire to stop people from riding on the train roofs? Oh, yeah that was you. What, you _don't_ like hyperbole when it's pointed at you? Poor, poor you.

                Again, you have literally no idea of the conditions on trains in India. Stop pr

                • Who is it that was proposing to hire a dozen or more men -- per train -- and barbed wire to stop people from riding on the train roofs? Oh, yeah that was you.

                  Still a far cry from the world's most expensive mercenary outfit.

                  Again, you have literally no idea of the conditions on trains in India.

                  Oh cool, you do strawman arguments as well!

                  Stop proposing idiotic "solutions".

                  That's OK, at least I didn't write this:

                  They have the money for panels that will be saving money on diesel fuel, not f
                  • by phayes ( 202222 )

                    What, you think that Blackwater only takes a single contract at a time and employs the entirety of it's personnel on it? It's a strange strange world you live in. For the rest of us, employing thousands "security consultants" with cricket bats is perfectly up Blackwater's line of business.

                    You've never actually _taken_ any train rides in India, so to you, my arguments are far fetched strawman. To me and all those who _have_ taken Indian trains my arguments are realty. But you still think that your imaginatio

                    • What, you think that Blackwater only takes a single contract at a time and employs the entirety of it's personnel on it?

                      Another strawman! Will he make the trifecta? Can. He. Go. All. The. Way?

                      my arguments are far fetched strawman.

                      That's not how it works. That's not how any of this works.

                      But you still think that your imagination trumps everyone else's reality.

                      GOOOOAAAAALLLLL!!!!!
                    • by phayes ( 202222 )

                      A strawman isn't any argument you disagree with or cannot prove you twit, it's a ridiculous argument that you pretend your opponent supports that makes you look good when you knock it down.

                      As you have no idea of the conditions on indian trains and _I_ and others who have commented do, my arguments are what is called _truth_ and yours the evasive maneuvering of a twit afraid to be caught out prevaricating.

                      But then, in your imagination your lies and inventions trump real-world experience.

                    • it's a ridiculous argument that you pretend your opponent supports that makes you look good when you knock it down.

                      Hence how a dude with a cricket bat becomes Blackwater.

                      As you have no idea of the conditions on indian trains and _I_ and others who have commented do

                      This is the third time you've brought this up, which I find hilarious since that was never a point of contention between us. Your time would be better served bitching at me about the things we disagree on.

                      and yours the evasive mane
                    • by phayes ( 202222 )

                      lets count a few lies and evasions.

                      You start off with "one guy" I correct you, he'll just get tossed off. You opine with two guys or a dozen give em tasers/MP5's. I reply that dozens of guys with MP5's * thousands of trains = blackwater. You either have the attention span of a gnat or are lying when you pretend to misunderstand how _you_ inflated a guy with a cricket bat into a substantial army & gnats don't know how to type.

                      TFA specifically says that the panels will save money through diminished diesel

                    • LOL, I love me a good slashdot pedant in the morning...

                      So let me help you out: You focused on the specifics of the post (good for you!) and not the theme, which was: I don't fucking care what the method is, find one that works since a dude with a cricket wasn't, according to you, enough. You chose the most extreme example out of many and ran as fast as you could with it. Does that make you technically correct? Yes it does! Congrats, you are the best kind of correct! Shame you still have a massive u
        • I've never been to India, but from what I hear from folks who have, the guy with the cricket bat will probably pocket a rupee or three from every roof passenger and in return will help them up and down, and assist in getting their baggage on and off the roof.

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      India is a pretty big place. 1.3 billion people. Sure, in some places people sit on the roof, but in other places the infrastructure is more modern and less crowded.

      TFA mentions that those trains do 80 kph, which is way too fast to be hanging on to without large numbers of people being killed. The ones covered in people move very slowly.

    • I said the same thing a few weeks back and got modbombed. Bastards!

  • Billions of liters of fuel used, each train saves thousands of liters. Unless Indian railways is running million rakes it might not make that big a dent.

    But if this use of solar panels puts money in the pockets of solar panel makers and make them reduce their costs and eventually utility scale/grid scale solar power generation happens ... then we are talking about something truly momentous.

  • by Crashmarik ( 635988 ) on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @12:53PM (#54840213)

    21,000 liters ~5,000 gallons = 108,000 dollars of fuel ?

    Yeah something is wrong with the story from the get go.

    • According to the original source, the per train savings would be 1,200,000 INR/yr. That's about 16,200 €/yr or 18,700 $/yr. Seems fairly OK for 21,000 l of diesel. The editor or submitter just cannot convert currencies, but that's no surprise.
    • by mspohr ( 589790 ) on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @01:07PM (#54840333)

      The article in Quartz states 21,000 liters of fuel costing Rs 12 lakh ($18,000) which is more realistic so the summary is the culprit here.

      • Which is pretty good as I saw the other conversion of the panel costs being 14,000$. The 18,000$ is per year, meaning the solar panels pays for themselves the first year and assuming say a 20 year lifespan give a cost savings of 360,000$. Seems a no brainer to me (assuming those estimates are correct).

        Jokes of Indians sitting on them aside and all of course...

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      21,000 liters ~5,000 gallons x 12 months x $1.8 each gallon ~ 108,000 dollars of fuel

    • by Retric ( 704075 )
      Just poorly translated. The railways estimate that a train with six solar-powered coaches could save around 21,000 litres (5,547 gallons) of diesel every year, worth around $108,000. 5,547 * 3$/g * 6 = 99,846$, which seems legit.
  • If there is surplus power, then throw in an air conditioner and a refrigerator or two

  • Good job India- the big question though is: why haven't countries been using solar panels on mass transit roofs before now? I'm sure it could save lots of money most places. ... well maybe not mass transit in subways.

    • by skids ( 119237 )

      In-flight electricity in vehicles is way less cost competitive with solar/TEG than the electricity at your home given it needs to be produced from fuel through a rather inefficient process, so it boils down to whether the extra weight and potential need for maintenance is worth it... and in the case of solar whether the panels can be kept safe.

      So yes, it's a missed opportunity.

    • Re:Good job India (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Mr D from 63 ( 3395377 ) on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @01:27PM (#54840485)

      Good job India- the big question though is: why haven't countries been using solar panels on mass transit roofs before now? I'm sure it could save lots of money most places. ... well maybe not mass transit in subways.

      First, understand that these panels are not to help move the train, only to power on board electrical equipment (lights, etc).

      Although the train will still be pulled by a diesel-powered locomotive, a set of 16 solar panels atop each coach will replace the diesel generators that typically power these appliances.

      The first question I have is; How much to install more energy efficient equipment on the train? Second question is; How does that cost/benefit compare to added solar panels and weight. Solar panels only help part of the time, energy efficiency improvements will help 24/7. Unfortunately these articles never give us that kind of critical information, they are more about the symbolic wonder of solar panels.

      • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        The first question I have is; How much to install more energy efficient equipment on the train? Second question is; How does that cost/benefit compare to added solar panels and weight. Solar panels only help part of the time, energy efficiency improvements will help 24/7. Unfortunately these articles never give us that kind of critical information, they are more about the symbolic wonder of solar panels.

        I think it's safe to assume that the rail company will have thought of that and done the calculations, don't you?

        In any case, why not do both? In fact, that's probably what they are doing. It's a shame that TFA doesn't mention it, but I seriously doubt that there is any symbolism going on here.

        • I think it's safe to assume that the rail company will have thought of that and done the calculations, don't you?

          No, I absolutely don't. Its much easier politically to get support for the gesture of installing solar panels that for refurbishment.

          • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

            What "support" would they need? It's their money. The sums on pay back time suggest less than a year.

            • What "support" would they need? It's their money. The sums on pay back time suggest less than a year.

              It take money up front to do this type of work, not covered in operating budgets. You have to get the funding. Payback in a year is a guess that doesn't sound plausible or in line with other solar system payback periods.

              • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

                You can do the maths yourself. The cost of electricity from the diesel generator is given in the article, and it's high because burning diesel in a relatively small system (compared to a power station) is not very efficient.

                Typical domestic payback periods in western Europe are well under 5 years now. India has better insolation... Run the numbers yourself if you like, it's all in the article.

                • No, the numbers are not in the article. They give the results but not all the inputs and assumptions. How many KWH do they expect the panels to produce in a year? They probably assumed that the diesels fuel burn power would be reduced by the panel output amount. Of course we know that marginal power changes by the diesel can affect fuel consumption much less than the base average consumption per unit. Of course the guys pushing the solar panel idea could care less about those type of details. It seems you
    • by orlanz ( 882574 )

      Other countries have additional cost factors that don't make this as good of an ROI like India.
      1) Labor cost is usually higher in most other countries. This jacks up the installation & maintenance costs of panels.
      2) Other than Russia, China, & Japan, most other nations do not have the Diesel rail volume & revenues to justify this retrofit. Note India isn't doing this to their electrical nor AC compartments. They are doing this for their low cost metal boxes on wheels.
      3) Many countries do not

      • 2) Other than Russia, China, & Japan, most other nations do not have the Diesel rail volume & revenues to justify this retrofit. Note India isn't doing this to their electrical nor AC compartments. They are doing this for their low cost metal boxes on wheels.

        Minor nitpick; almost all passenger rail travel in the US & Canada is diesel, except for some of the northeast US, a small portion of Chicago's commuter lines, and one Montreal commuter line. There is volume. Revenue is another story...

        4) Many countries have a cheaper and more reliable electrical grid that makes panels nothing more than a PR stunt. For these, it makes more sense to co-locate the panels and provide energy directly to the rail system; rather than run around on the cars (ie: US, Japan, & EU).

        This is the better way to solve the problem; it doesn't matter what generated the power and you can use it to move the train as well (bigger savings).

    • What I'm wondering is why automobiles don't have solar panel roofs to keep some rudimentary climate control running while the car is sitting in the parking lot.

      • Do the math on how much actual power would be produced by those panels, compare it to the power needed to provide even a moderate level of climate control, and you will have your answer.

        • I don't mean heating/winter since that isn't really a problem (if there's enough sun for a solar panel the interior is warm enough).
          For summer, simply running the fans would keep the interior the same temperature as the exterior, and would move cooler air over surfaces that are heating up with the sun. It doesn't need to be 72 degrees when you get inside, just keep it down to 1-2 degrees warmer than the outside temperature. This would also stop hot car deaths.

          • I know what you meant. I'll help you with the math since you couldn't be bothered to do it yourself.

            Let's take the earth average sun at 1000 W/m^2. A typical solar panel used on a car will convert about 10% of that power into electricity, so 100 watts. A typical cabin fan used in a car will draw somewhere between 10 amps and 30 amps depending on size of the car and such, at 12 volts this means 120 to 360 watts.

            Assume that the solar panel shields the car from the heat by converting it to electricity you h

    • why haven't countries been using solar panels on mass transit roofs before now?

      Every time solar power comes up on Slashdot someone will mention how prices of solar panels have dropped in recent years. That could explain the reluctance to have solar panels on train car rooftops. It could be that the price of solar was too high until recently. Even if it was economically feasible years ago it could be that the people that plan such things saw how solar prices were falling and were just waiting until it hit bottom and stabilized.

      If prices for solar panels were dropping by 13% (or what

  • 6-car trains at $14k/car comes $84k to retrofit and each train saves $108k/year on diesel. If you're getting a $24k return for each train you finish with the refit, just in the first year... awesome.

    • by Anonymous Coward
      Something is not right with the math. 5k gallons of diesel doesn't cost $100k.
      • Something is not right with the math. 5k gallons of diesel doesn't cost $100k.

        Just did the math and there does seem to something off. The of a litre of diesel in India is about 0.9 USD and there are about 3.8 litres in a gallon, so 3.8 * 5000 * 0.9 = 17100 USD

        Source for diesel price: http://www.mypetrolprice.com/d... [mypetrolprice.com] , noting this is just an estimate.

    • The summary is wrong. According to the article, the fuel savings is Rs 12 lakh (1.2 million rupees) per train with six retrofitted cars. The cost to retrofit one car is Rs 9 lakh (900,000 rupees).

      So, it should take about 4.5 years to break even.

  • by kiviQr ( 3443687 )
    good luck in a tunels!
  • by swillden ( 191260 ) <shawn-ds@willden.org> on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @01:27PM (#54840481) Homepage Journal

    I'm surprised that this isn't already integrated with the locomotive. The locomotive is almost certainly diesel-electric, so why did they have separate generators on the cars, rather than just drawing from the massive diesel generators in the locomotive? And if they add solar panels, to all of the cars why use them to charge batteries, rather than just feeding any excess juice to the locomotive, allowing it to burn a little less fuel to keep the train moving? I suppose this might result in a little bit of waste when the train is sitting still, so I suppose it's worth having enough battery capacity to capture that energy, but most of the time it's sitting still it's probably in a train station which could likely use the power.

    Note that I know almost nothing about any of this stuff, so this isn't a "they're stupid for not doing that" post; I'm actually asking questions. I suppose the simple answer may well be "Because the locomotive isn't presently designed to do that".

    • I'm surprised that this isn't already integrated with the locomotive. The locomotive is almost certainly diesel-electric, so why did they have separate generators on the cars, rather than just drawing from the massive diesel generators in the locomotive?

      The trains use air brakes and don't depend on any other connections. If the air brake connection is broken because cars are separated, then the brakes are automatically applied.

      • why did they have separate [electrical] generators on the cars, rather than just drawing from the massive diesel generators in the locomotive?

        The trains use air brakes and don't depend on any other connections. If the air brake connection is broken because cars are separated, then the brakes are automatically applied.

        What has that got to do with the electrical power supplies?

        • What has that got to do with the electrical power supplies?

          They've literally found it easier to install diesel gensets in the train cars than one big fat inverter (or inverter bank) in the locomotive which has to deal with the varying output voltage of the engine at different speeds, and you're sitting here asking what the simplicity of the rest of the system has to do with the electrical power supplies?

    • I suspect solar power couldn't provide the power needed to pull all that weight, which is why they've dedicated it to the lights, ACs and display systems inside the trains. It's a start - may not be 100% solar, but even something like 30% is good.
      • Surely it's closer to 3% than 30%. Exactly how much power does a train coach car need? Modern illumination needs virtually no power in the grand scheme of things. Likewise displays. Air conditioning? ... maybe ... The big power drain of a train is trundling maybe 30 metric tons per car (plus the engine) around the countryside.

        • Surely it's closer to 3% than 30%.

          Actually, closer to 0.03% than to 3%. The locomotive needs... say 55000nm of torque, while the lights, these days, use pretty much negligible electricity.

          I suspect that the savings come from the reduced weight rather than the actual electricity usage (removing those smaller diesel generators per car).

    • by Anonymous Coward

      They are feeding off the diesel generator on the locomotive in a traditional car, that diesel generator creates power by burning diesel... not drawing that power lets that generator generate less electricity and burn less fuel.

      Technical details are sparse in the articles that I can find... but if they can manage to detach from the locomotive power entirely, that means fewer connections to the locomotive, which depending on the use case could also be beneficial.
      As for the extra juice being dumped into the mo

      • Of all the dozens (hundreds?) of videos of Indian passenger trains I've seen (there seem to be a lot of railfans in India) on YouTube, none use head-end power (HEP) generated by the locomotive--even if it's an electric unit (as far as I can tell, locomotive-borne HEP just isn't a thing in India). There is almost always a diesel generator car at one end (usually both) of the passenger consist.

        (example) [youtube.com]

        This is most likely due to the sheer length of these trains--it isn't even unusual for premium services

    • by Above ( 100351 )

      It's a good question if you're not familiar with the typical setup.

      The cars generally use HEP [wikipedia.org], a 480v AC distribution system.

      In most locomotives the main diesel engine supplies electricity only to the traction motors. Basically the traction motors us a variable amount of volts and amps, and different voltages, than the passenger cars which want a fairly constant voltage. That's not to say this is a universal truth, one that has a single engine turning both the generator for the traction motors and for HEP

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      It's just a practicality thing. You could do it, but aside from the engineering complexity (which will inevitably result in reduced reliability) the amount of energy left over after running the carriages is probably not worth the effort. Maybe in a future version where reliability has reached very high levels and been proven.

    • Actually, here in the USA, Amtrak locomotives and locomotives used by commuter railroads use a system called "head-end power," where a diesel-powered generator in a diesel-electric locomotives provides power to all the attached passenger cars through a special power cable system. I believe something like that have been around since the late 1930's.

  • Won't work (Score:4, Funny)

    by farble1670 ( 803356 ) on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @03:19PM (#54841315)

    Solar cells do not generate energy when there are people sitting on top of them.

  • The Indian government still refuses to provide running water, electricity and sanitation to the more than 600 million Indian citizens who lack such services, choosing instead to devote resources to international pissing contests.
    • by ghoul ( 157158 )

      Its not the govts job to provide any of these. India is a capitalist free market economy. If people want to shit in the fields and hence add organic fertilizer to their organic crops and also be more in commune with nature who is the govt to tell them to build toilets. What are you? Some kind of communist?

  • Summary claims 21,000 liters of diesel saved over 2.6 billion liters yearly usage.

    Are they really boasting about a .0008% offset?I agree there is no small gains, but I am not sure it is worth the news.

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