Interviews: Ask Lithium-Ion Battery Inventor John Goodenough a Question 145
John B. Goodenough is a solid-state physicist and professor of mechanical engineering and materials science at The University of Texas at Austin. While he is most famous for identifying and developing the lithium-ion battery, which can be found in just about every portable electronic device on the market, he has recently created a new fast charging solid-state battery that looks to revolutionize the industry. We sent him an email about doing an interview and he has responded. Now is your chance to ask Goodenough a question!
We'll pick the very best questions and forward them to John Goodenough himself. (Feel free to leave your suggestions for who Slashdot should interview next.) Go on, don't be shy!
We'll pick the very best questions and forward them to John Goodenough himself. (Feel free to leave your suggestions for who Slashdot should interview next.) Go on, don't be shy!
Re: (Score:2)
No matter what someone might think, one day they will because there's not going to be any more fossil fuels.
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"Soy based plastic"? You mean making plastic from plants?!
Stop your nonsense.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go 3D-print something out of PLA.
Critics (Score:1)
How do you respond to critics of the new battery technology? When can we expect to see them hit the street?
JFC (Score:4, Funny)
Perhaps slashdot should institute a policy of delete-moderation for QandA. I'm all for whatever nonsense in news posts, but this is like inviting a guest into your house and then using them for midget bowling. It's abusive.
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So, you think his question isn't goodenough? It's one thing when people start complaining about SWJ or whatnot, but your point of view is badenough that it makes me cringe.
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I sure hope so. This page makes me cringe.
Ready for mass production? (Score:5, Interesting)
There are several innovative ideas for better batteries that never make it to market. The problem is that you can make a few by hand in the lab, but production of useful numbers does not scale well at all or it scales, but is horrible expensive.
Will your development reasonably scale? If not, what stands in your way.
electrode material? (Score:5, Interesting)
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goddamnit that pun needs to end
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Li-ion Battery Fires (Score:5, Interesting)
Could you speculate on the reasons behind the increasing frequency of li-ion battery fires? Cheaper parts, smaller tolerances, higher energy density, or all of the above?
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Zorgonians have nothing to do with this problem.
Korkanians, on the other hand...
Just looking at the first few questions... (Score:2, Offtopic)
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The five stages of name-pun reaction:
1) Amusement. This stage starts at age about 4 to 6, when the punee first gets the joke. It typically lasts about 30 minutes.
2) Tedium. This stage typically lasts a few months
3) Anger. Will you stop with that stupid joke already?
4) Bargaining. If you stop making those stupid jokes, I'll stop pummelling your ribs with a baseball bat.
5) Acceptance. Let the jokes flow through you, omnipresent yet harmless like the air. Find your inner peace. Make it your life's mission that
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In case anyone was wondering:
John B Goodenough: person, named 1922.
Johnny B. Goode: song, released 1958.
So Prof. Goodenough not only predates the Chuck Berry song, he also predates Chuck Berry (by four years.)
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So Prof. Goodenough not only predates the Chuck Berry song, he also predates Chuck Berry (by four years.)
So there was nothing wrong with that name until he was 36 years old and that no-talent assclown Chuck Berry started winning Grammys?
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I point out the chronology. The interpretation is up to you.
Why would you participate in this process? (Score:1)
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Typically I believe nuclear batteries have much lower power density than most chemical batteries - they store far more total energy, but can't release it nearly as fast. And in fact they release it at a constant rate*, whether or not you're using it - radioactive decay doesn't come with an off switch. Plus, as current technology mostly depends on heat conversion, you've got to figure that for every watt of electric power it can delivers, it will also be delivering 2-3 watts of heat.
There's also the size i
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There are many reasons why this isn't ever happening. A very big one is that such a 'battery' would be producing heat all the time. Say your device has 10W peak demand, and your radioisotope thermal generator (nuclear battery) has efficiency 10% (better than we've yet achieved), then you'd need an RTG which was emitting 100W of heat all the time. (On the plus side, it would do a fine job of heating the interior of your car on cold days.) (If your device only uses 10W occasionally, you could pair a 1W output
Energy density (Score:5, Interesting)
Time to market (Score:3)
Maria Helena Braga? (Score:1)
"..he has recently created a new fast charging solid-state battery.."
So be honest, who's the real inventor here?
You or Maria?
Not putting down your contribution, if it is Maria, as I'm sure your experience in the challenges of going from theory to consumer ready product, bringing a new battery to market, will be invaluable. I'm sure you had mentors too.
I've got 2 daughters (& 4 sons), I'd like to think that our civilisation is progressing enough to the point where gender doesn't preclude recognition for
Family ties (Score:1)
And are you related to the late Dr. Florence Goodenough [wikipedia.org], who invented the Draw-A-Person intelligence test [pineight.com] in the 1920s?
I ask because Simon Baron Cohen [wikipedia.org], who invented the Sally-Anne test [wikipedia.org] for autism, is the cousin of the comedian who played Borat [wikipedia.org].
Why? (Score:1)
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Why is every technology breakthrough I read about "five to ten years away from commercial viability."?
It seems to fit, even in Goodenough's career.. Invented lithium-ion battery early 80's, implemented by Sony first in 1991. (I think I got that right, pulled it from memory without checking)
Will there always be a demand for lithium? (Score:2)
Demand for lithium is soaring and supply is scrabbling to keep up. If I was contemplating constructing a lithium mine/extraction facility, I would be worried that my investment might do fine for five years and then suddenly become worthless when some new battery chemistry came along. Is this fear justifiable? Is it reducing current or near-future lithium supply?
Where to next? (Score:1)
I am an electrical engineer and developing a battery pack for a light electric aircraft. What do you think is the next big application for batteries after EVs and home energy storage? Into what specific area of batteries should engineers focus their work on when developing battery systems? What is your ultimate vision for battery technology? Could you elaborate?
opinion on materials in batteries (Score:1)
Dear John, (see what I did there?)
do you have any positive (or negative, for that matter) opinions on use of hemp (as can be seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]) in batteries? Organic too..
What about graphene?
Limit of Energy Density (Score:2, Interesting)
John,
Is it (theoretically) possible for a battery to reach the same energy density as fossil fuel? Gasoline has an energy density of 46MJ/kg while a lithium based battery has an energy density of around 1MJ/kg.
This would mean that an electric car, boat or airplane would have the same potential range as their oil powered brethren.
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Electric cars lose on the energy storage, but win on the engine. Instead of 300 kg of engine and 70 kg of fuel in a petrol car, you can have 30 kg of motor and 340 kg of battery in an electric car without increasing the mass. (Note that those masses are guesswork on my part.)
On top of that, it is hard to sell cars with 100 mile range, so electric cars dedicate more of their mass to propulsion+energy storage than fossil fuel cars.
Re:Limit of Energy Density (Score:4, Insightful)
John,
Is it (theoretically) possible for a battery to reach the same energy density as fossil fuel? Gasoline has an energy density of 46MJ/kg while a lithium based battery has an energy density of around 1MJ/kg.
This would mean that an electric car, boat or airplane would have the same potential range as their oil powered brethren.
How come this is modded up? This is so deeply flawed.
Gasoline engine are terribly inefficient (30-45%) compared to the electric (90-98%), meaning that you need far less energy density to reach the same range for it's weight. And let's not forget the braking. As for airplane, there's no electric equivalent to jet engine.
Energy density is a factor, but not the only one. Price, Safety, speed of charge, number of cycle are all important to consider too.
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Most modern airliners use high-pass turbofans which produce considerably more fan thrust than jet thrust. The electric equivalent of this is the Electric Ducted Fan jet [rc-airplane-world.com].
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Most modern airliners use high-pass turbofans which produce considerably more fan thrust than jet thrust. The electric equivalent of this is the Electric Ducted Fan jet [rc-airplane-world.com].
Well turbofan is a type of jet engine no?
And this "electric equivalent", I don't think it's even close to turbofan. What's their "Thrust-to-weight" ratio and their "Thrust specific fuel consumption"?
Of course, maybe I'm completely off and if something does exist please show me.
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An EDF is literally the closest electric equivalent of a modern airliner's engine, a big ducted fan driven by X, where X is an electric motor in the EDF, or a turbine engine in the turbofan. The range isn't equivalent due mostly to energy density.
If you had an electric motor and a turbine with similar power and similar efficiencies (plausible), and a battery with equal power density to jet fuel, they could put out an equal amount of thrust for an equal amount of time when used to drive an identical ducted f
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There's a 45% efficient ICE!?!? I thought they topped out at around 35%.
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Not for airplanes, as the fossil fuel burns away, so the total plane weight get significantly lighter at the end of its journey (sometimes half the weight).
I'd think for an airplane it would be have to be at least x1.5 the density.
(IANAAE... nowadays, but i trained as an Aerospace Engineer last century ;)
Anti-matter (Score:2)
Is it (theoretically) possible for a battery to reach the same energy density as fossil fuel?
The theoretical maximum battery capacity is well in excess of fossil fuel. A battery made of 50% matter and 50% anti-matter could conceivably convert its mass into energy. That is the theoretical limit but we are a long way technologically from getting anywhere even vaguely close.
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That's not a battery, that's a guaranteed to explode in the factory bomb. You'll need a bunch more mass to generate the magnetic containment field to keep the antimatter from annihilating normal matter until you're ready. Plus a reactor in which to perform the annihilation that can convert the gamma radiation that carries off most fo the energy into something useful. And serious radiation shielding to protect anyone nearby from being exposed to the radiation which doesn't get converted.
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That's not a battery, that's a guaranteed to explode in the factory bomb. You'll need a bunch more mass...
You seem to be confusing the original question which was "Is it (theoretically) possible..." for is "Is it currently practically possible...". Indeed your argument about such a battery being a bomb applies equally well to fossil fuel the only difference being the size of the crater each will leave when the energy is released. Any battery with a sufficiently large energy storage is likely to be capable of exploding since it will contain lots of energy and must have a way to release it.
There is no way to
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The difference of course being that fossil fuels won't spontaneously explode if you lose active containment for a millisecond.
But yes, otherwise I'm inclined to agree. Even stable antimatter storage is far from any theoretical power storage limit, something like high-density electron storage would make antimatter containment risks and challenges look like child's play.
Why aren't 12V Lithium car batteries more popular? (Score:5, Interesting)
I've noticed that replacement lithium polymer battery packs for hybrid cars sell often sell for less than $1000 on eBay, while much smaller lithium based 12v batteries for conventional cars (with starter motors) often sell for more. As an example, here is a battery suitable for starting a small V8 that sells for $1600.00 http://www.jegs.com/i/Lithium-... [jegs.com]
I would assume that it would be much easier to manufacture conventional 12v starter batteries in volume due to the ability to put them in many more different models of vehicles.
The ability to shave off 30+ lbs of weight from racecars would be enormous, so the demand is there, but why not the supply?
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If you want your race car to be light, just get rid of the battery entirely. You don't need a battery to race, only to crank the engine, something you really try to avoid doing whilst already racing.
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Super capacitors and a very small battery
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What were the problems along the way? (Score:1)
I'm curious about the development path leading to the recent announcement. What changed to make this battery possible now, versus a decade ago?
Was it analytical techniques (better math, faster computers)? Measurement and observation tools (fast/fine X-Ray, femto-second pulsed lasers)? Overall progress in the physical, chemical and electro-chemical sciences? Assembling the right team and lab? Or was it more about waiting for a spark of insight or inspiration?
Which factors dominated the development path?
Patents (Score:2)
1) Is there any reason these batteries cannot be used for grid-scale energy storage?
2) Who own the patents to the battery technology and will they license it cheaply or hold back the market for 20 years like the overly greedy venture capitalists behind Aquion Energy?
What are the downsides to your Sodium Batteries (Score:4, Insightful)
As sodium is a much more environmentally friendly element to produce at large scale (my conjecture, I didn't look it up).
What were the roadblocks of using sodium in previous batteries?
I suspect whisker growth, but am not familiar with batteries enough to know other possibilities.
With the glass version, what are the big drawbacks to using sodium instead of lithium (if any)?
Thank you for your kind reply in advance!!
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Take a chunk of sodium and toss it in water, you get lye and hydrogen. The result is a very alkaline soil.
It's the economics (Score:3)
Prof. Goodenough,
Right now, electric cars are only for the well-to-do. In my rural area, not only do people have to drive long miles, but many of them couldn't afford a new car anyway, let alone an electric one.
Do you envision battery prices becoming down to the point where an electric vehicle can compete with a gas-powered car at the low end of the income scale as well as at the high end?
Extreme temperatures (Score:3)
"the dipoles can be rapidly aligned at 100°C by an ac applied electric field and frozen into alignment at 25°C < Tg. "
Has consideration been given (experimentation as well) within the laboratory environment to the behavior of the glass substrate within extreme naturally occurring temperatures. While, my personal property values increase proportionately with the effectiveness of global warming and hope at some point to own luxury resort beach front property here in Oslo, Norway, it's not uncommon to operate an EV within sub -20C temperatures and with -50C temperatures further north.
Current Li based cells suffer badly within these climates. In addition, in the past working together with Lee (Elias) Stefanakos Ph.D. from USF, we experienced in Florida certain behaviors in higher unregulated temperatures (with regards to lead-acid cells.. circa 1993) behavioral degradation of chemical electrolytes at +37C (if I recall correctly).
How does your and Maria's solid-state substrate behave within extreme temperatures. While I certainly am no material's scientist, I am curious whether there are behavioral symptoms displayed when performing under such naturally occurring extremes.
In addition, fluid electrolytes can often "self-repair" under these circumstances as a result of "reflowing". If these negative behaviors are apparent in within the solid electrolyte, are the damages sustained (structural fractures for example) or does the substrate display typical expansion and contraction under naturally occurring conditions?
For a bonus
Who do you watch? (Score:2)
Just a question of adequacy. (Score:1)
Viability (Score:5, Interesting)
Serious question (Score:2)
Have you contacted Elon Musk, or has he already contacted you?
Most credit? (Score:2)
Is it fair to credit you that we have RC helicopters and multicopters?
Either way, thanks for all you've contributed.
How do you feel about UT patent management? (Score:3)
Somewhere around the mid- to late 2000s, I was researching LiFEPO4 patents, and came across the University of Texas (UT) patent for which you are listed as an inventor. When I investigated licensing the patent, it was so expensive that it was not profitable to bother with the license at all. The factory partner I worked with was in China, and they were mass-producing the same LiFePO4 for jurisdictions not impacted by the patent.
As I understand it, the law firm that UT chose to manage the patent set a price that was incredibly high. Then, invariably, some company would build a market for a LiFePO4 product that violated the patent, and then the law firm would step in after the company had actually done some business and sue them for all they were worth. I have to admit that this last bit was told to me by some battery industry veterans, but it seems plausible based on how the battery industry works.
Nonetheless, the decision of UT to exclusively grant permission to the law firm to manage the patent kept the invention out of the market and likely cost UT some incredible amount (billions?) in royalties.
How do you feel about your invention, which clearly made mass-production of the chemistry viable, being effectively kept off the market for so long?
(BTW, when UT lowered their prices with, like, 5 years or so left on the patent, the factory I worked with immediately purchased the licensed material for selling their batteries in the U.S.)
Ars Technica Critique (Score:2)
Why are they not especially robust? (Score:2)
Rechargeable lithium cells are clearly excellent and power the majority of battery powered things I own. However, by comparison to older, less energy dense techs, they don't seem especially robust, for instance they degrade fast if deep discharged or left at very low charge levels. By comparison, say, NiCd batteries are very robust: while they do lose life, they do it in a pretty slowly and predictable way, you don't get it going off a cliff edge. I've noticed with some (though not all) devices, the battery
Longer battery life for smart watches? (Score:2)
Do you envision batteries being able to run a sophisticated smart watch for at least a week? I would gladly buy such a smart watch if it wasn't overly large and expensive.
Personally, I think you should get a name change (Score:2)
Change it to Greatenough to spur all the hecklers.
Fuel Cells (Score:1)
Grid based questions (Score:2)
Do you think lithium ion batteries will ever be able to economically provide grid scale frequency regulation? If so what timelines?
Do you think lithium ion batteries will ever be able to economically provide grid scale peak/valley stabilization? If so what timelines?
If not what tech do you see filling that gap and any timelines?
A lithium powered energy economy (Score:1)
It seems that the world's reserves of lithium are far more centralized than nearly any other energy source. Do you foresee a way to avoid the geopolitical struggles for lithium ore that we experience with oil reserves?
Do you see an upper limit on the ability to recycle and reuse existing lithium batteries (those that have avoided a landfill)?
Too many ways to skin the cat (Score:2)
With so many different research approaches to improving batteries, investment in bringing new technology to production scale is often viewed as a hazardous endeavor... there's a pretty good chance the tech you pick will end up getting surpassed by another before financials break even.
Obviously the free market helps foster a spirit of competition, but its brutal Darwinism also serves as a disincentive. Planned market solutions can spread out risk, but also have to be wary of funding completely unworthy ende
Fake (Score:2)
Battery Structure and Capacity (Score:1)
How thick is the initial anode foil of Li or Na? This determines the capacity of the battery. All quantities in the paper are expressed per gram of lithium.
The cathode has particles of glass electrolyte, carbon, and sulphur, with a copper collector. When the lithium is plated onto the cathode, upon which of these components is it plated, and how thick is the plating?
Cathode Problem? (Score:1)
In the IEEE article, it was stated that the cathode problem has not yet been solved. Can you elaborate on this? Were the lab experiments conducted without a cathode?
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With puns like that, I don't think you'll ever B. Goodenough.
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Why would you include batteries at all? If you have brackish water at night, then you almost certainly have it available during the day as well, and can perform desalination then, when you have maximum power availability. Why waste money and power (batteries aren't free or 100% efficient) trying to spread the work over the full day cycle?
As a matter of fact I seem to recall a number of different solar desalination technologies out there, most of which use solar thermal rather than photovoltaics, thus more