'Radioactive Boy Scout' Reportedly Passes Away At Age 39 (harpers.org) 182
A funeral notice quietly appeared on Tributes.com recently, announcing the death of David Charles Hahn. Though no cause of death was provided, when he was 17 Hahn "achieved some notoriety as a teenage Boy Scout with his attempt to build a nuclear reactor in his garden shed," remembers Slashdot reader braindrainbahrain:
His "reactor" ended when the EPA declared his backyard as a Superfund cleanup site due to hazardous levels of radiation. His story was captured in a Harper's magazine article, and later the book "The Radioactive Boy Scout" by Ken Silverstein. It was also a Slashdot topic...
Hahn had used materials from household products like lithium batteries, smoke detectors, and old radium clocks, according to Wikipedia, which adds that shortly after Hahn's lab was dismantled, he became an Eagle Scout.
Hahn had used materials from household products like lithium batteries, smoke detectors, and old radium clocks, according to Wikipedia, which adds that shortly after Hahn's lab was dismantled, he became an Eagle Scout.
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I always enjoyed reading his story when I was younger, it was an inspiration. It showed what a determined kid could do given enough knowledge and motivation.
I also remember reading the story. My reaction was one of horror because of the extremely toxic substances this guy was obsessed with. And now it seems my horror has turned into reality. From what I recall about him several years ago, he was already in poor health.
Re: Well shit. (Score:1)
His first story piqued my curiosity, but his second cemented my feelings he loved the limelight. Or at least, enjoyed the attention he garnered from his first endeavors.
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His first story piqued my curiosity, but his second cemented my feelings he loved the limelight. Or at least, enjoyed the attention he garnered from his first endeavors.
Ironically, that limelight had a rather radioactive glow about it...
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you were inspired by a lunatic
Re:Well shit. (Score:5, Interesting)
As we all are, constantly. Madame Curie knew what she was doing wasn't healthy, too.
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This guy was no Madame Curie. More like a reckless fool. The full dangers of radiation weren't well understood until perhaps the 50s or 60s. This guy really had no excuse, and was obviously reckless. Madame Curie lived in a time when nobody really suspected how dangerous this stuff was. For gods sake, women put radium covered painbrushes to sharpen the tip! And even then they didn't die of the radiation, they died of radium poisoning!
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Yes.
I was inspired by him as well, that I could do nearly anything I wanted... but also to apply substantially more caution to my endeavors.
FWIW he's only a year younger than me and I easily could have been him, except I was busy with tesla coils and such instead...
A reactor was seriously on my todo list, but generally more the farnsworth fusor design.
-nB
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Actually, radiologists who've since examined the case suggest that Marie Curie's fatal cancer was most likelt due to her medal-winning work as a volunteer X-ray operator during the Great War. (advertised as "The War to End War" without a word of irony. That time.) Those battlef
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I assume he should have read more articles about radiation poisoning and not swallowing alpha emitters.
Wasn't looking well (Score:5, Informative)
He wasn't looking well [dailymail.co.uk] the last tine he was arrested for... wait for it... stealing once again [foxnews.com] to try to get material for a new reactor.
He ended up being hospitalized for bipolar disorder and paranoid schizophrenia, and had been on medication for schizophrenia ever since. His mother was also schizophrenic. He led an interesting life...
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Looks like he was on his way to becoming Deadpool. Seems he never quite got that healing factor.
Re:Wasn't looking well (Score:5, Interesting)
He wasn't looking well [dailymail.co.uk] the last tine he was arrested for...
Interesting. The lad looks a little like this fellow from Nagasaki http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com... [nuclearsecrecy.com]
Could be a coincidence of course. The only thing close I could think of would be meth issues.
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Looks like skin picking.
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'Police say that Hahn's face was covered with open sores, possibly from constant exposure to radioactive materials.'
Re:Wasn't looking well (Score:5, Funny)
'Police say that Hahn's face was covered with open sores, possibly from constant exposure to radioactive materials.'
I thought most Slashdotters were very much in favor of open sores.
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Confirmation? (Score:2)
All I see is the short obituary on Tributes.com that anyone could have posted. No links to a news story or anything.
"no cause of death was provided" (Score:2)
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Yeah, probably. He could have inhaled or ingested a bunch of alpha or beta emitters. Colon cancer, lung cancer, take your pick.
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Considering the fact that he has been apparently working with radioactive materials for at least a decade (arrested in 2007 for trying to steal smoke detectors for their Americium) without a single thought to safety, and considering he has turned down medical treatment for radiation exposure numerous times I'd say he died of complications resulting from exposure (and lack of treatment) to radioactive materials.
What you aren't considering is the very low actual risk numbers and a long history of medical evidence regarding exposure at even higher levels not resulting in significant statistical increases that a normal person would consider risk significant. If there was a 1 in 100,000 increase in the chance that this person would get cancer before he died, than in all likelihood your assumption is incorrect.
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Cancer is only one way to die from radiation exposure
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Cancer is only one way to die from radiation exposure
Yes, but please discuss those other ways in the context of this article and discussion. Cancer is by far the most likely health impact from most types of radioactive exposure that are not massively acute. Other risks are much lower, so my point stands.
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except for the obvious sores on his face (and presumably other parts of body)
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Re:"no cause of death was provided" (Score:5, Insightful)
very low actual risk numbers and a long history of medical evidence regarding exposure at even higher levels not resulting in significant statistical increases
All that stuff about 'no statistically significant increase in risk' goes way out the window if he was careless and wound up taking in a significant amount of radioactive material (Or other poison) directly into his body.
The low risk occurs when the source of radiation is not directly inhaled or ingested.
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He could be the icon for (Score:5, Funny)
"Don't try this at home".
Lesson learned... (Score:1)
Radiation is like shrapnel (Score:3)
I don't think people fully appreciate radiation (cloud chamber with uranium): https://imgur.com/r/woahdude/g... [imgur.com]
Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
So now imagine being exposed to that in larger doses for an extended period of time. I have no idea what killed this fellow, but certainly playing with something that's constantly generating tiny, invisible shrapnel might have had something to do with it.
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Rest in Peace (Score:4, Interesting)
If if misguided I couldn't help but affectionally admire him.
Re:Rest in Peace (Score:5, Insightful)
He could have handled it so much better. Particularly as an adult. He kept on carrying on in the same manner he did as a child. Nuclear physics isn't about just randomly jamming things together, you do calculations and simulations to see how your idea will work. You determine your radiation hazards, you look up your material handling guidelines, you permit (okay, I'd forgive him for skipping that one, he'd never get approval), then you build.
As an adult he apparently wanted to invent an always-on nuclear lightbulb. Of course, we already have those with tritium-lit exit signs, but he had some design of his own in mind, something bright (and almost certainly obscenely dangerous)
Also, find out what others have already discovered (Score:3)
This goes for anything you do, but particularly anything dangerous. Turns out humans have done a lot of research on shit, and we know the right answer for a lot of things already. So rather than just flailing about trying to figure out what is going on, do some research. It may turn out that the problem you are trying to solve has already been solved, or that people have figured out a good reason it can't. You can save yourself a lot of time and headache, and in the case of something like nuclear materials
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So you're not sure if you are misguided or not?
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That's the thing, he was smart, he was driven but unfortunately crazy. Loveable, ultimately tragic, and very human futility,
Ironically, at 39, he lived just over a half-life (Score:1)
-nt
I met him (Score:4, Interesting)
He was on my ship. I was a nuke. He was not, and he was not nearly smart enough to be one. Nor did he have the dedication or discipline to succeed at it. He was obnoxious and racist. And I don't mean pretend racist that everyone like to toss around. He was openly racist and got his ass kicked more than once because of how openly bigoted and belligerent about it he was. There was nothing impressive about him, except for his disregard for common sense.
Re:I met him (Score:4, Insightful)
He was on my ship. I was a nuke. He was not, and he was not nearly smart enough to be one.
The Harper's story reminds me of something Ralph Waldo Emerson once said: Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm.
The story paints a picture of a kid who appears to have little common sense or self-preservation instinct, and yet he improvised a procedure to reduce extract the thorium dioxide from lantern mantles and reduce it with lithium (from lithium batteries) to metallic thorium! And then... then he tries to reduce the radiation escaping into the neighborhood by using cobalt steel drill bits as "control rods" in his makeshift reactor... WTF?
I think his story may suggest that we underestimate how smart even not-particularly-smart people can be if they're sufficiently motivated. Maybe Or for a more extreme boost, obsessed.
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He never struck me as especially talented; he seemed to disregard a lot of safety matters with what he was doing, which is not the mark of an intellectual.
The facial sores looked like narcotics use or possibly still more radiation exposure, neither of which would have been good news (for him).
Radioactive Meth, a bad idea? (Score:3)
He tried to make SuperMeth using childhood inspiration and Walter White mixed to create a new powerful " Radium infused crystal Methamphetamine ".
But idiot tried his own batch?
http://www.nndb.com/people/821... [nndb.com]
lol
Short film (Score:5, Informative)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Sad (Score:3)
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He was obviously smarter than most of us
How so? Because he attempted something out of a chemistry book but skipped all the bits about it being deadly as hell and it looks like it ultimately ended his life very early?
Proof of the horrors of mental illness. (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, initially this seems like a cautionary tale on curiosity.
But if you look at this poor guy's later life, you'll see it for what it really is. Mental illness.
He simply couldn't let his fixation go. He's been busted for trying to accumulate radioactive materials via theft as an adult too.
Never mind the damage he's done. To others as well as himself... Never mind the other negative consequences he suffered.
Basically there should have been psychiatric intervention years ago.
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Yeah, if anything, this is a cautionary tale about America's healthcare system.
This is how Meth can screw you up. (Score:5, Informative)
But if you look at this poor guy's later life, you'll see it for what it really is. Mental illness.
He apparently was a meth head.
Meth can turn the most sober and normal person into a unrecoverable basket case in record time.
Meth - Not even once.
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He was a fuckup long before the meth.
Probably accidentally ingested (Score:2)
Of course we don't for sure, but if he was taking apart that stuff with his bare hands he was probably accidentally ingesting small amounts of contaminated material from whatever got onto his hands and dust getting onto food, the air he was breathing, etc. Remember, he was taking apart hundreds to possibly thousands of devices.
Ingestion is what killed the ladies painting aircraft instrument dials with radium-laced paint (the radium to make the dials glow in the dark). In that case it was more direct, the
He was a glowing beacon for all of us. (Score:3)
*Tadum* *Crash* *Thud*
Thank you, thank you, I'm here all week.
Slashdot is a little slow (Score:2)
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I've never seen an exact level, but it's been described as "well over 1000 times normal background radiation". That would mean "well over 2,4 sievert per year". No comments on exactly where a person had to be standing to receive that - assumedly in the shed right by the "reactor" ("target" would be a better description). You certainly wouldn't want to be sleeping there every night. But if you're in the next house over, no, it's probably pretty insignificant. Unless he had a fire or something and aeroso
Re:all bout nothin (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re: all bout nothin (Score:1)
anytime something like this comes up, the first thing folks always say is "did you know bananas are radioactive?"
did you know bananas are radioactive?
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Bananas are relatively high in potassium (0.35%). In nature, 0.01% of potassium is unstable with a half-life of a billion years. Not biologically significant.
By way of contrast, granite is 5% potassium.
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No, they are not, meaning you can't find a banana that emits statistically different amount from the background, unless maybe you manage to grow one near that reactor in Chernobyl.
We test some every year (students invariably bring them to our nuclear physics lab), and we've never seen anything but the background.
True (I just checked this my Ludlum 2221). A banana has only about 0.4 g of potassium in it which would produce 11 decays per second. It would be difficult to pick this out of background. But if you test a jar of NuSalt, or other potassium chloride salt substitute, which contains 100 g of potassium or so, the radiation is very easy to detect.
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I'm glad that nature strictly adheres to health and safety guidelines.
In most places anyway. [youtube.com]
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Yep, EPA is a hell of a lot tighter on things they can measure with a Geiger counter than they are for stuff like mercury, lead, PCBs, etc.
Re:all bout nothin (Score:5, Informative)
1000 times background measured directly over a source is really not that much. And the risks it presents is much lower than a huge majority of people seem to think. I know the number 1000 sounds like a lot, but 1000 times something very small can still be very small.
The question of course, is what he was exposed to, how often, and did he ingest any of the radioactive matter. He was altready a bit careless, having OD'ed on canthaxanthin that he ingested as part of an experiment. He created an explosion of Red phosphorus n the basement of his house apparently not knowing that it was sensitive to shock, and he was pounding it with a hammer. So we have a young fellow that is remarkably careless.
The Americium from the smoke detectors, of which he stole a number of them - apparently 100 known. So most of that is excreted but the rest goes to the liver and one's nutsack if they happen to have one.
Thorium is fairly safe stuff, unless it is ingested, being an alpha emitter. Ingestion of the dust from one isn't so safe. He collected lantern mantles to collect the thorium they contained. Hahn used lithium from dismantled batteries to purify the thorium, using a Bunsen burner in the process. His standard of sanitation was not high.
Radium is another matter entirely about 20 percent of ingested radium makes its's way into the bones, and it is an alpha and gamma emitter. It's daughter element radon gas is also radioactive and causes cancer.
Tritium that he was going to use as a moderator, is also a radioactive beta emitter, but probably isn't/wasn't that big a deal. So it is very plausible that this young fellow ingested enough material to do himself physical harm from the radioactivity.
We'll never know the full extent of the radioactivity, because his mother threw most of his collected materials into the regular trash. She was fearful of her property value.
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Thorium is an alpha emitter, but it has a couple of beta emitters in its decay chain so real thorium samples will emit both alpha and beta radiation.
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Even for ingestion or radium though, it is levels that matter. That's the part people miss. Just to say it 'causes cancer' is meaningless without levels. To say it 'makes its way to the bones' sounds scary until you realize how much is actually required to significantly increase your risk of cancer. Sunlight causes cancer as well. The point is that risk perception of the public regarding radioactivity is tremendously skewed. Mostly due to FUD and much due to ignorance.
The person displaying the most ignorance here is you Mr D From 63! Why are you so interested in levels when you first quoted 1000 times background as no big deal, without any reference to alpha beta or gamma radiation.
Sunlight causes cancer as well.
That you even try the ridiculous deflecting move of equating Sunshine with Radium show either exceptional ignorance, or exceptional misunderstanding or plain old dumb malice. It's like arguing my point with my point. Ionizing radiation causes cancer so you try to refute it with another ionioz
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Once again, you make things up. I never refute that ionizing radiation can cause cancer. It can. I was talking about the risks from the levels of exposure we are discussing. You cannot seem to separate risk from absolution.
Did you know that the risk of skin cancer from sunlight is much higher than health
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The issue of ingestion of radiological hazards is why I get irritated when people try and talk of the danger in terms of 'chest x-rays' and 'banana equivalent doses'
Its irresponsible and only exposes the claimant's ignorance. There is a world of difference between an alpha emitter in the hand, and one in the gut or lung.
But we have armchair experts in here who make sweeping claims that show their ignorance. Every bit as much ignorance as those who cower in fear at the mention of radioactivity.
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He didn't exactly have an idyllic childhood. His mother was schizophrenic, seriously in cloud-cookoo land until she was hospitalized and put on heavy medication. It mostly controlled it after that, but she became very inattentive. She was also alcoholic. His parents divorced when he was a child. As a teen, he initially did most of his work at his father and stepmother's place, but as they became increasingly concerned by the danger level of his experiments, they began cracking down and disposing of any
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He created an explosion of Red phosphorus n the basement of his house apparently not knowing that it was sensitive to shock, and he was pounding it with a hammer. So we have a young fellow that is remarkably careless.
You have a young fellow who's PARENTS were remarkably careless. I too pounded stuff with hammers when I was around 16 year old. I too liked fire, chemical experiments, playing with electricity.
I did as well. One of my favorite Christmas gifts was a big Chemistry set - and this was back in teh day where they put real chemicals in them, not just vinegar and baking soda. I made a lot of interesting stuff. I even had my own little outbuilding to use as a chemistry shed. But I did get some guidance and limits. I did adhere to them as well. I quickly understood radioactivity and it's ability to reach out and touch you. Its all just safety with chemicals.
In this fellows family, there were some major
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You have two representations of fact that I have not seen elsewhere. One is that his mother threw his items in the trash. The other that he used stolen detectors. As I have seen the story presented, he may have committed fraud in order to acquire the detectors mainly to mask his age, but he did not steal them.
He both practiced fraud and theft at different times. The account is in Silverstein's book.
The other is you assertion that his mother threw out "most" of his items. The story as presented is that he was pulled over by a policeman and some items were found that led to the complete excavation of the family's yard. Now perhaps his mother threw out items prior to the discovery by authorities.
That is more or less correct. What Hahn had in the trunk of his car appears to be the materials from smoke detectors and gas mantles - americium and thorium. It was months before the shed was investigated.
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You have two representations of fact that I have not seen elsewhere. One is that his mother threw his items in the trash.
From the Harper's article at http://harpers.org/archive/199... [harpers.org] P "David’s mother, alerted by Ken and Kathy and petrified that the government would take her home away as a result of her son’s experiments, had ransacked the shed and discarded most of what she found, including his neutron gun, the radium, pellets of thorium that were far more radioactive than what the health officials found, and several quarts of radioactive powder. “The funny thing is,” David now says, “they onl
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Still... just that radium paint alone, you wouldn't want the teen next door to have something like that...
What if he had more dangerous toxins like those found in a can of insecticide or certain common petroleum products at his disposal? We wouldn't want that either would we.
Re:all bout nothin (Score:4, Informative)
Still... just that radium paint alone, you wouldn't want the teen next door to have something like that...
What if he had more dangerous toxins like those found in a can of insecticide or certain common petroleum products at his disposal? We wouldn't want that either would we.
I truly hope that you do not work in the nuclear industry, as you have a remarkably arrogant and dangerous attitude.
No, Mister D from 63, they are not an equivalent as you suggest.
Many radioactive elements are also chemically poisonous as well as radioactive. A bit of Uranium in one's lunch will take out your kidneys before the radiation does anything to you. A kid shouldn't be playing with radioactive materials nor your ridiculous insecticide comparison.
However, to take your opinion that somehow radioactivity is safe, and making grand sweeping statements to that effect and not even making reference to the type of radioactivity is/was involved, makes me feel quite safe that you don't know what you are talking about.
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I also said nothing about the nuclear industry nor would I suggest the change their practices or lower their standards. They have very conservative standards and that has served them well.
So, your attempt to twist my words and scare with swee
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I certainly would not work around you with radioactive materials, as you draw a safety conclusion from residual radiation, and from only a small remainder of what wasoriginally there, as well as th exposure to the young man in a shed.
So now allow me to make comments on quoted material that you wrote:
"The only reason this was ever a story is public ignorance and tremendously skewed risk perception of radioactive exposure at these levels.
So this should not have been reported at all? Tell me what the r
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Alpha and neutron, mainly.
The 1000 number is from the original "radioactive boy scout" article and has been cited by a number of article since then.
Regardless, when you're dealing with "well over 2.4 sievert", it would be bad for you to be spending great amounts of time in that environment. Surely not what killed him, though. He's not going to get sores on his face like that just from having spent time near his "reactor" in the shed. That looks like small radiation ulcers, like he was getting material on
Re:all bout nothin (Score:5, Interesting)
The annual average effective dose from natural background is 2.4 mSv. However, when the article claim 1000 times normal background radiation, it doesn't say anything about the radiation type which is an important criteria to determine the effective dose. You need to qualifies the radiation, how much X-, gamma or beta radiation vs alpha, fission fragments and heavy particles vs neutrons vs high-energy protons. Doing a comparison in sievert is not appropriate. Where did you get this 1000 number?
No doubt from the rectum.
We had radium, Americium-241,Thorium, and tritium. So we have alpha, beta and gamma. Purification techniques performed in a small shed, and probably under woefully inadequate conditions. The likelihood of ingestion and inhalation of daughter element radon was very likely.
What is more, Hahn's mother was fearful of the radioactive element' being known would negatively impact her property value, so she gathered up what she could and threw it out in the trash. This was a remarkably scrrewed up family.
So the total extent of the radioactivity will never be known. Whether or not an autopsy will be performed on Hahn is not known either.
But almost certainly, the scraping of the radium clocks, as well as the Americium-241 from the smoke detectors, the purification of the thorium from the lantern mantles ( apparently with nitric acid) the not always careful lad almost had to be dosing himself severely with radiation as well as regular chemical poisons. I shudder to think of just the nitric acid exposure.
And 30 some years is about right for the delay between exposure and problems.
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the purification of the thorium from the lantern mantles ( apparently with nitric acid)
My mistake. He used the nitric acid - which he made himself - in a not so successful experiment to extract Uranium from pitchblende. the Lithium was used to purify the thorium form the ashes of the mantles.
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Rectum, darn near killed him.
Ahh, the ending of the best joke ever. Thanks for the laugh!
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1995 was 20 years ago, not 30
1995?
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I've never seen an exact level, but it's been described as "well over 1000 times normal background radiation".
The thing about "normal" is that it isn't very normal. It varies widely, from areas with almost no background radiation, to areas with very high levels. People who live in pitchblende areas deal with higher levels, every day, 24/7.
Yes, walk a few feet away, and radiation from radioactive sources drops radically, so as you say, the low energy "reactor" next door has absolutely no effect - you probably wouldn't even be able to measure it. The radiation levels from living next door to a powerplant for a yea
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No you have never seen an exact level and this whole story is greatly overblown (because it is so darn colorful, with a catchy title).
The entire account known to the public is based solely on the book "The Radioactive Boy Scout" by Ken Silverstein. The only reason why anyone has ever heard of this case is because of Silverstein. No statements about actual radiation levels are found anywhere in the book, what you are reporting is pure rumor. And if you actually read the book several things become clear.
First
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Addendum: another thing that stands out is how ignorant Hahn was, and remained, about the basics of the relevant physics.
Silverstein is easily impressed by this "precocious" kid (IIRC, actually 17 when he got himself busted). But if you were ever a precocious kid yourself, interested in science (as many people who read this site undoubtedly are) then the account is not at all impressive. Hahn remains woefully misinformed to the very end, apparently never really reading a single good text on the subject (lik
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Another addendum: what the book does report is the radioactivity of a few specific items found at the shed. The most radioactive was a vegetable can with a count rate of 50,000 CPM. Definitely radioactive, but to put this in context uranium glazed Fiestaware, which was sold to the public to eat off of as late as 1972, emits up to 30,000 CPM [unitednuclear.com] and yes, you can buy one of these for $39 today if you like.
The next most radioactive item was 6,000 CPM, one at 3,000, one at 1,500, and nothing else more than the low
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The tools he used in his experiments were recovered, and they were contaminated with Thorium, Americium, and Radium.
Additionally, over fifty foil-wrapped cubes with Thorium powder were recovered.
They were disposed of at a radioactive waste dump in the Utah Desert.
The toolbox and powder was the big concern - he may have been overstating what he did, but it wasn't a total lie, and the Feds knew it.
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I don't know. A friend of mine from school died at 17. Drowned--pulled under by a swift river current. Does that make water more deadly than nuclear reactors?
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Does that make water more deadly than nuclear reactors?
Nuclear reactors use water, that means nuclear reactors have RADIATION DANGER+WATER HAZARDS.
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He died at 39 because he was fucking?
What a way to go!
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It wasn't written in all caps?