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Elon Musk Plans To Solve Traffic Congestion With Self-Driving Buses (theverge.com) 192

An anonymous reader writes: Elon Musk believes self-driving buses are the answer to solving traffic congestion and mass transit in densely populated cities. Musk has teased the idea while at a transportation conference in Norway, according to Bloomberg. "We have an idea for something which is not exactly a bus but would solve the density problem for inner city situations." he said. "Autonomous vehicles are key... I don't want to talk too much about it. I have to be careful what I say." Elon Musk released the Model X last year with semi-autonomous Autopilot mode, and most recently, announced the "budget-friendly" Model 3 with similar autonomous functionality. There's no question autonomous vehicles are the future. "I very much agree with solving the high-density transport problem," Musk said in Norway. "There's a new type of car or vehicle that would be great for that and that'll actually take people to their final destination and not just the bus stop." The Hyperloop is another example of Elon's vision to revolutionize transportation.
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Elon Musk Plans To Solve Traffic Congestion With Self-Driving Buses

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  • by rmdingler ( 1955220 ) on Thursday April 21, 2016 @07:42PM (#51961119) Journal
    Solving traffic congestion with self-driving buses that poor and middle class people need to ride on is a bit presumptive
  • by Type44Q ( 1233630 ) on Thursday April 21, 2016 @07:52PM (#51961165)
    I'm no big fan of all the "self driven" bullshit being heaped upon us lately but I don't see how the "AI" on these buses could be any less skilled than your typical Denver bus driver...
    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
      • by Minupla ( 62455 )

        I've said for awhile that the company that can cross uber with self driving and audible to give me a plan where I can pay 500$/mo in order to have a car come and pick me up when I need it will get me to give up my car.

        I think a self driving car fleet could make that happen. I'm not one of those people whose identity is tied up in my car, it's just a box on wheels that I use to get from point A to B in the most efficient way possible. Getting from point A to B in the most efficient way is what I want, not

        • I'm not one of those people whose identity is tied up in my car

          I dont know about "identity" (I hate American cars in general and GM in particular; I drive a Suburban) but I'm going to suggest that it's a good thing you (unlike me) don't feel a need to be behind the wheel? Why? Because to become truly proficient behind the wheel, you need to be passionate about it... and which you, obviously, are not.

          Of course, you also need to not be stupid (I'm not suggesting you are), which of course rules out 40 to 60% of the drivers on American roads. In any case, the solution isn'

        • I'm with the AC above - $500/ month? That's a lot of cash. Now I realize that, amortized, that's probably about the monthly cost of buying a [gas] car outright plus fuel and maintenance over a 10-year span. But there's a big difference between a one-time cost and recurring monthly payments: recurring financial obligation.

          Personally I prefer larger one-time payments and then having no recurring obligation. (Incidentally, this is why I also dislike the idea of software subscriptions - those pesky recurring o

      • Agreed. I mean from time to time you can still see horses on the roads. Most people don't ride them anymore, sure, but some people just love 'em.
  • No information (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Harlequin80 ( 1671040 ) on Thursday April 21, 2016 @07:52PM (#51961169)

    There is nothing in the article that even points us in the direction of a bus other than "Something not really like a bus". In fact there is nothing in this article that points us at anything

  • An uberesque vehicle (Score:4, Interesting)

    by BlueCoder ( 223005 ) on Thursday April 21, 2016 @07:58PM (#51961195)

    I think he is brainstorming a driverless limo/bus. Without the driver station it could be square to shorten the vehicle. Then separate the vehicle into compartments with say 3 or 4 sections. You can book a whole section for yourself or share. Just imagine a squarish vehicle with 4 sets of gull wing doors.

    They don't want to talk about it since it's likely they would be for uber, lift and conventional taxi businesses.

    Don't forget once we have driverless the local taxi medallion companies can get in on the game quite easily too.

    • by rtb61 ( 674572 )

      I like the idea of footpaths with culverts underneath housing star trek turbo lift style transport. Add an extension to the system for your dwelling or enter via a public access point and either use a private transport unit or a public one. Leaving much smaller roads for cargo and emergency services. Interesting 3D transport system with horizontal and vertical lanes at congestion locales, 1 lane, 2 lanes, 2x2 lanes, 2x3 lanes and 3x3 lanes. The whole idea to avoid all interaction between the transport units

  • by Etcetera ( 14711 ) on Thursday April 21, 2016 @08:17PM (#51961293) Homepage

    Back in the day, every once in a while someone would propose some "this will solve everything" solution to the problem of spam, and we'd reply with the list of many reasons why it wouldn't work. I feel like we need to update the meme below for all of the technocratic solutions coming out of Silicon Valley nowadays by people who don't particularly live in the real world, and/or are millennials.


    Your post advocates a

    ( ) technical ( ) legislative ( ) market-based ( ) vigilante

    approach to fighting spam. Your idea will not work. Here is why it won't work. (One or more of the following may apply to your particular idea, and it may have other flaws which used to vary from state to state before a bad federal law was passed.)

    ( ) Spammers can easily use it to harvest email addresses
    ( ) Mailing lists and other legitimate email uses would be affected
    ( ) No one will be able to find the guy or collect the money
    ( ) It is defenseless against brute force attacks
    ( ) It will stop spam for two weeks and then we'll be stuck with it
    ( ) Users of email will not put up with it
    ( ) Microsoft will not put up with it
    ( ) The police will not put up with it
    ( ) Requires too much cooperation from spammers
    ( ) Requires immediate total cooperation from everybody at once
    ( ) Many email users cannot afford to lose business or alienate potential employers
    ( ) Spammers don't care about invalid addresses in their lists
    ( ) Anyone could anonymously destroy anyone else's career or business

    Specifically, your plan fails to account for

    ( ) Laws expressly prohibiting it
    ( ) Lack of centrally controlling authority for email
    ( ) Open relays in foreign countries
    ( ) Ease of searching tiny alphanumeric address space of all email addresses
    ( ) Asshats
    ( ) Jurisdictional problems
    ( ) Unpopularity of weird new taxes
    ( ) Public reluctance to accept weird new forms of money
    ( ) Huge existing software investment in SMTP
    ( ) Susceptibility of protocols other than SMTP to attack
    ( ) Willingness of users to install OS patches received by email
    ( ) Armies of worm riddled broadband-connected Windows boxes
    ( ) Eternal arms race involved in all filtering approaches
    ( ) Extreme profitability of spam
    ( ) Joe jobs and/or identity theft
    ( ) Technically illiterate politicians
    ( ) Extreme stupidity on the part of people who do business with spammers
    ( ) Dishonesty on the part of spammers themselves
    ( ) Bandwidth costs that are unaffected by client filtering
    ( ) Outlook

    and the following philosophical objections may also apply:

    ( ) Ideas similar to yours are easy to come up with, yet none have ever
    been shown practical
    ( ) Any scheme based on opt-out is unacceptable
    ( ) SMTP headers should not be the subject of legislation
    ( ) Blacklists suck
    ( ) Whitelists suck
    ( ) We should be able to talk about Viagra without being censored
    ( ) Countermeasures should not involve wire fraud or credit card fraud
    ( ) Countermeasures should not involve sabotage of public networks
    ( ) Countermeasures must work if phased in gradually
    ( ) Sending email should be free
    ( ) Why should we have to trust you and your servers?
    ( ) Incompatiblity with open source or open source licenses
    ( ) Feel-good measures do nothing to solve the problem
    ( ) Temporary/one-time email addresses are cumbersome
    ( ) I don't want the government reading my email
    ( ) Killing them that way is not slow and painful enough

    Furthermore, this is what I think about you:

    ( ) Sorry dude, but I don't think it would work.
    ( ) This is a stupid idea, and you're a stupid person for suggesting it.
    ( ) Nice try, assh0le! I'm going to find out where you live and burn your
    house down!

    • Oh boy, are we playing this game again? Do mine! Do mine!

      You ban all mass mailing other than those for which the receiver has explicitly opted-in, and can easily opt-out. Nasty fines and rapidly escalating penalties for repeat offenders. Everyone's free to forward any spam to "violations@spamcop.gov", and any sender submitted more than a threshold number of times gets tracked down, investigated, tried, and penalized (the point of spam being to extract money from the recipient, senders can only obfuscate th

      • I had a similar idea for getting rid of scam phone calls. A national (or whatever government level) whitelist, coupled with personal whitelists. Any number not on either your whitelist or the national one simply can't get through, they get a busy signal or something. Companies can register to be placed on the national whitelist, but must prove their validity etc. Abuses can be reported, and fines, suspensions, bans, etc. can be imposed if necessary.

    • The trouble with the spam thing is that it applies to spam not to anything else. Whereas there are in fact hybrid legslative-market based-technical solutions which do ease congestion as you might see in many major cities.

      For example, on the technical side you need a network of public transportation including busses, trains and underground rail. Not only that but they can be tied together with a good tracking system making it very easy to not only plan journies but find accurate up-to-date information for ma

  • by infinite9 ( 319274 ) on Thursday April 21, 2016 @08:26PM (#51961343)

    How is this different from buses with drivers? That hasn't solved the problem. (Not sure there really is a problem)

    • picks you up and takes you from exactly where you are and where you want to go. city buses don't do that

  • Are bus drivers so expensive that they are the thing preventing us from having more buses on the road?
    • by Hadlock ( 143607 )

      Drivers represent something like 80% of the vehicle costs, yes. A diesel powered bus costs about $300,000 as a one time cost + maintenance and last 10 years. and in major US cities a bus driver costs about $60,000-90,0000 per year, plus another $25,000/yr in health costs, retirement costs and administrative costs.

      You can buy one additional bus for every three years of employing a bus driver.

      And since you don't have to deal with humans, you can run the buses 24 hours a day, 7 days a week at t

      • by Luthair ( 847766 )

        There are a lot of other costs. Cleaning crews, maintenance crews, stations, graffiti, etc.

        Realistically this won't solve anything, the issue isn't the driver, its the other people on the bus (which would be worse without someone in charge) and its far less convenient than your own car which takes you directly from A to B more quickly. As someone who doesn't own a car (by choice), by the time I walk to a bus stop I could have driven to most of my destinations.

        • by Hadlock ( 143607 )

          The big thing about busses, commuter busses, etc, is that one bus that holds 50 cars worth of people (the average commuter car holding 1 person), only takes up three "car spaces" on the highway, in the city, etc. 50 cars take up the space of 50 cars. Plus the "gap" space between them for safety.

          Even if you switched to 12 person buses (three compartments of 4 people each) running a sort of uber pool that ran in a loop, you're looking at huge advantages. And you don't have to worry about graffiti when

          • by Luthair ( 847766 )
            How do you not need to worry about the bus being damaged? Security cameras don't give full coverage. Heck just normal wear & tear on vehicles running 12-16 hours a day is significant.
    • If your plan is something more like shared taxis than traditional buses (say 10-15 seats and door-to-door service, pickup on demand within 15 minutes) then there are many fewer passengers to share the cost of the driver, and I imagine it would be a significant part of the cost.

      I don't know if this is what Musk has in mind, as the fine article is nearly contentless. (If so, it is hardly an exciting new idea.) I think that a service like this would get many people to go carless. It would do for me.

    • by N1AK ( 864906 )
      In the UK you would need ~5-6 drivers to run a vehicle 24/7 accounting for breaks, holidays, illness etc. If you pay them £10.50 (about the London bus driver rate) then after pensions, national insurance etc you're talking around £3,000 a week, which is £160,000 a year (around $230,000). The driver and the equipment needed for a driver take up space and add weight that adds more additional cost.

      London buses are expected to have a £350,000 cost over their 14 year lifetime, while ba
  • Roads do need to be kept in condition for these things to work so it's worth considering those costs as well when comparing to other forms of transport such as rail, trams and weird chairlift pod things that sound less stupid every day.
    "Just add X to the roads we have" doesn't consider the long term and may not be the best choice, especially when it's time to try to add more road capacity.
  • No. Perfect the self driving Semi Truck and get robotic trucks out there to replace truck drivers. you can drive at the speed limit for 24 hours and get there faster than the current drivers that speed and overall drive like turds making things unsafe. plus you can get the trucks to drive in trains saving fuel in a huge way. Imagine 30 truck trains on I-80 across the country.

    This is where it needs to happen.

    • by Wizarth ( 785742 )

      Electric semi's are already in development and testing. E.G. http://www.popularmechanics.co... [popularmechanics.com]

      Presumably this concept is aimed more for suburban areas, where hopefully semi's aren't a significant portion of the traffic.

    • Imagine 30 truck trains on I-80 across the country.

      Now imagine being the human driver who needs to merge into that lane.

    • No, you need to get cargo off the highways and onto trains which are much more fuel efficient. Forget the Hyperloop for people. Make it for cargo and get the trucks off the highways. I was leaving Toronto late one night and it was mostly transports. And a lot of those trucks are all heading to the same place. Use shipping containers, put them on trains, and then use trucks to do short haul for the last leg. Then by getting the trucks off of the highways we make them safer and we don't have to keep expand

      • And the weight of those transports is what destroys roads the most compared to regular cars and trucks, so that's another plus for that idea.

  • The driver culture considers owning one's own car as a crucial element in their self-image of freedom. Historically, they have voted for transit systems only when they think buses and trains will take enough loser-cruiser-users off the road to lessen the traffic around their treasured freedom chariots.

    But if ridesharing services and autonomous cars proliferate, a large number of new users will unwittingly move over from the driver culture to the rider culture. If you get used to Ubering and riding autonomous cars in the city, even you hold on to a weekend land yacht of your own, you will now be a lot friendlier to the idea of riding a multipassdenger transit vehicle when this will save money than you ever were before.

  • ... a Tesla Model 3 and add some hobo funk. It'll be jus like a self-driving bus.

  • I predict...
    0. Self driving buses might work well. But I think the breakthough will begin with...
    1. Taxi companies will run fleets of self-driving taxis: alledgedly safer driving, less risk of driver/passenger abuse, cheaper.
    (Initially the public sector would not do that because of "joblosses". The private sector has no such qualms.)
    2. Once the risk of joblosses is past, then taxis would evolve into public transport, because...
    3. Private car ownership would decrease, due to:
    - convenience (available

  • The problem here is precisely the dense population. Most places with horrible traffic don't have anywhere near the population density for a plan like this:They are traffic nightmares because they have huge, low density suburbs, making any bus system fail, even if the price of running it went down in half. LA, Seattle, Austin, DC.. Buses don't fix that. Improvement on buses would probably fix San Francisco, and might help in NYC, but those are places where buses are already usable.

  • There are ALREADY known issues with driverless CARS being plonked down into mixed traffic with humans.

    So, he's going to double-down and and increase the weight (under dubious "control") by 8-11 times?

    So instead of just endangering a couple people on the road, we can now endanger dozens?

    • by Jeremi ( 14640 )

      You're right, nobody should ever think of a new idea or try to solve a problem. Something bad might happen!

  • by kheldan ( 1460303 ) on Friday April 22, 2016 @01:50AM (#51962473) Journal
    If Elon Musk wants to invent something that will improve mass transit, how about a mind control device that will make people actually want to use public transit in the first place? All a 'self-driving bus' will do is make bus drivers less skilled -- because they'll still have to sit there, supervising some shitty pseudo-AI that is pseudo-driving a 9 ton chunk of metal and flesh on wheels that could kill dozens of people if it fucks up -- and make no mistake, it will be required to still have manual controls and a qualified human operator, alert and supervising it, at all times. Stupid idea.
    • If Elon Musk wants to invent something that will improve mass transit, how about a mind control device that will make people actually want to use public transit in the first place?

      There's nothing wrong with public transport. I'm sure everyone would be happy to use it. People are however not happy to use a painful slow form of transport crammed shoulder to shoulder in a tiny uncomfortable cabin which smells of BO while being stuck in the same traffic as they would be in their car.

      You don't need mind control, you just need good public transport, though I don't think these things can be solved by a self driving bus.

      • smells of BO while being stuck in the same traffic as they would be in their car

        The first objection could be handled with periodic PSA's about the importance of good personal hygiene in crowded conditions (most people with hygiene problems are oblivious and inured to it and if it is pointed out tactfully, they will be sufficiently chastened so as to fix their behaviour).

        The second is fixed by having bus-only lanes or corridors.

        • The second is fixed by having bus-only lanes or corridors.

          Sure. And traffic problems on highways were supposed to be 'fixed' by having carpool-only lanes.. which end up empty, while all the other general-use lanes are bumper-to-bumper. All having a 'bus-only' lane will accomplish will be to piss off drivers who are sitting in traffic while half-empty buses go whizzing by them. Oh and by the way if we're going to have 'bus-only lanes' then we also need to have protected bike lanes everywhere, too -- which will also piss off drivers. The U.S. is a car-centric countr

    • by hattig ( 47930 )

      It's not a bus, the article says that. It's public transport, but I think the conveyance is a lot smaller than a bus - maybe a mini-bus size, or even a people carrier size.

      The road use enhancements come from multiple such vehicles being able to drive in close formation due to the autonomous and cooperative nature of the system.

      And of course even if a carriage only has two or three people in it (maybe 6 people per 10m of road), that's higher density than 1 person in a car (which is 1 person per 10m of road).

    • by crtreece ( 59298 )
      I don't know how public transport works where you are, but here it runs from approximately 6a-9p. This means it starts too late for a lot of people to use it going to work, and stops too early to use it when going out at night. The routes are designed in a spoke/hub setup, so unless you are going to/from the Downtown area, the efficiency is somewhere between "major PITA" to "might as well take a cab".

      If there were more, smaller vehicles, there could be more routes, in more useful layouts. If the vehicle

    • by dave420 ( 699308 )

      Public transport works wonders in other countries.

  • They do solve this problem, even if they currently still need a driver. The problem is that most cities without a well-working public transit system are lacking vision and/or money. But there really is no need for "self driving buses" to implement working, efficient and reliable public transportation.

  • I'm anything but an Uber fan. However, what he is proposing is probably something very similar to UberPool with self-driving cars and, unlike other forms of public transit, this would be a significant improvement over private transportation. Other posters have pointed out that specially made electric vehicles could provide private passenger compartments although I'm not even sure that's necessary. Sharing is usually less this issue on public transit than the fact that it's cramped. I've ridden in black
  • The original interview/discussion is available as an embedded video in this article: http://e24.no/digital/elon-musk/elon-musk-norge-har-en-fantastisk-fordel/23663856

    Elon Musk starts talking about it 40 minutes into the video.

  • if they communicate their positions to self-driving cars. Then, those autos get the heck out of the way of the bus. Consider:
    • A bus lane that reverts to a non-bus lane when the bus isn't nearby;
    • A bus that doesn't have to wait for your illegal parking/standing/stopping car to get the heck out of the way because the self-drive doesn't allow the car to be (illegally) in the way in the first place;
    • A bus that has an easier time making it through intersections because self-driving cars organize themselves to pr
  • Buses are expensive.
    They provide a monopoly in an area for a particular transportation company.
    They are the constant threat to bicyclists.
    They are noisy.
    In metropolitan areas, people make themselves vulnerable by waiting for them.
    In many areas, their schedules and routes are limited to commercial interests.

    Smaller personal transportation is a better answer.

  • The headline and summary talks about a bus. The quote from Mr. Musk says it's not a bus.

Keep up the good work! But please don't ask me to help.

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