Orange County Developer To Install Tesla Batteries In Two Dozen Buildings (computerworld.com) 89
Lucas123 writes: The Irvine Company, a Newport Beach-based real estate developer that is a dominant landlord in Orange County, plans to install Tesla commercial batteries in two dozen of its buildings around Irvine Spectrum and John Wayne Airport. The project is the first of its kind of that size. The batteries will charge during non-peak hours and distribute power to the buildings during peak hours, a process that's expected to save the developer up to 10% of its energy costs or about $1 million a year.
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Give my money to some person in need instead.
Can't. They're poor, they deserve to suffer, it's God's Will.
Not so fast... (Score:5, Informative)
$30M to install? I'm seeing roughly $600k, at $25k per pop, per building.
The thing to remember about commercial building electric rates is that you not only pay a charge based on electrical usage, but also a 'peak power demand' surcharge. By reducing any peaks in power usage, it saves money on their bills.
If it saves anywhere near $1M/year, a roughly $1M investment is a foolish bargain to refuse.
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They certainly are vague enough on the math
The numbers in TFA make no sense. The units are $25,000 each and store 100 kwh. At peak, power is about 12c/kwhr. Off peak is about 6c/kwhr. So, at most, these units are going to save $6 per day.
$6 * 365 * 20 units = $43,800 savings per year. That is no where close to "a million dollars". If it costs $25,000 * 20 units = $500k to install, then the ROI is 8.8%, which is not bad when bank loans are typically 4% or less. So this looks like a decent investment, but TFA is so muddled it is hard to say for
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The Powerpack (100kWh) retails for US$25,000? Unless this is a mistake, this makes Powerpacks a very good deal, considering the 7kWh Powerwall retails for US$3,500 and the Powerpack is more or less 15 Powerwalls in a single enclosure.
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That still makes PowerPacks a horrible deal.
http://www.alibaba.com/product... [alibaba.com]
I just finished an e-mail exchange with that company. I negotiated $75 a pop for the 12V 200Ah Gel SLA batteries when you get minimum order quantity of 50, which would be needed to match the PowerPack's storage levels.
$3,750. For the price of one PowerWall, I can match the PowerPack's storage capacity using SLA batteries. At the largest dimensions for the battery, I could run 50 (10 stacked vertically x 5 stacks) in a roughly 8.5'
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PowerPack has built in charge controller and cooling, plus a warranty and guaranteed specifications. If you roll your own solution with bare batteries it might be cheaper but it will consume your time, talents, and you will be the one responsible for warrantying it.
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Cooling is required for the PowerWall because of the lithium battery chemistry being heat intolerant. SLA doesn't have anywhere near that issue and can operate/charge in much higher temperature ranges. Charge controller is cheap. These batteries have a warranty and guaranteed specs as well.
I've got an SLA+solar array in a warehouse in Memphis. It's been in operation almost 15 years without issue and from the steward's last report the system still maintains about 85% maximum capacity. I can build and install
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Peak rates for commercial users in Southern California Edison territory are $3.641/kwhr [sce.com] (!) at 5PM on days where the downtown LA peak temp is >=95F. Even 85-90F days are a ridiculous $0.6205/kwhr, midnight rates on those same days are $.0481 so it's not hard to see how shifting a few thousand killowatt hours per month during the summer could add up to a million over their properties.
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I think the $25K figure is per battery, not per building, as 100 kWh doesn't seem liket nearly enough to offset power usage for any decent sized commercial building. So, each building will likely have multiple batteries, from what I could see in the images shown. I'd bet on that $30 million figure being accurate.
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I was thinking that the $1M a year was probably the savings just from buying electricity off-peak and using it on-peak. The article mentions that the electricity supplier would then be able to ask them to switch to the batteries when there was very high demand. Normally companies that do this, or shut down some equipment, get rebates so that probably is on top of the figure quoted. And I'm sure that they are getting a good price with all of this publicity they are generating for Tesla.
But yes, a 30 year
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Yes, it's $25k per battery, each battery can store 100kWh, and they are saying that all of the installed batteries will be able to offset 10MW of reserve capacity. However specs for the battery seem to be a bit sparse so I don't know how fast the battery can discharge or even the physical size of the battery. The article mentioned that the batteries at the first site would take up five parking spaces (I can't see one being that large).
The home models provide a continuous 5kW of power but that would be too
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I've seen lots of systems installed in the name of the future that were dead-ends. There had been an attempt at a proprietary metro wireless network here about fifteen years ago. There were little transceivers up on the light poles. The system went bust, but there were no thousands of these little radios bolted to poles that did nothing but help the poles rust faster as the paint was disturbed.
Everything added to a building is a tr
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Who cares what it costs. This is an investment in the future.
Let me guess: You support Bernie Sanders for president. Am I right?
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http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/teslas-closed-loop-battery-recycling-program
Re:Great (Score:5, Informative)
The Irvine Company is a commercial company not the government. What Orange County taxes are you talking about?
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You don't think they'll get huge tax gifts? If not, then more power to them.
There are probably incentives from the local power company, also a private company not a government entity.
If there are tax breaks they would be state based, not county based, and would be little different from taxpayers subsidizing every solar panel a homeowner puts on their roof, etc.
"More power", yes. Because during peak hours where these batteries are going to be active is when buildings in Orange County have experience the occasional power outages. So reducing their draw during these hours is a b
Re:Great (Score:4, Informative)
Because during peak hours where these batteries are going to be active is when buildings in Orange County have experience the occasional power outages. So reducing their draw during these hours is a benefit to the larger Orange County community.
You are spot on with this. As an employee of a company who is in an Irvine Company building that is going to get these batteries, I can attest to the power outages and mandatory rationing that we are subject to. They are not too invasive and so far have amounted to little more than no building A/C after 5pm. I had to contend with much worse rationing working at a non-profit in downtown LA who had heavily discounted power.
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You don't think they'll get huge tax gifts?
In Orange County? Where the airport is name after John Wayne, and Ronald Reagan is considered a demigod? I don't think so.
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The Irvine Company is a commercial company not the government. What Orange County taxes are you talking about?
Around here, The Irvine Company's power is such that it might as well be the government.
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The Irvine Company is a commercial company not the government. What Orange County taxes are you talking about?
Around here, The Irvine Company's power is such that it might as well be the government.
Worse, more like a homeowner's association, which kind of makes sense since they are nearly everyone's landlord. Here are the three acceptable shades of beige you may paint your buildings. Here are the two types of outdoor metal tables and chairs you have outside your restaurant. You may think I am joking ... but that just tells us you have not visited Irvine.
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I grew up there. The Irvine Company owns Orange County, so buying those Powerwalls is for them like us dropping by Frys for a pack of AA cells.
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I'm sure Orange County residents are fine with wise use of tax money. It will cost over 30 million to install, it might save up to a million per year.
How long is that battery life?
How is this a use of tax money? A private company installing something that they think will save them money? Or maybe they are reselling electricity to their tenants and this will generate revenue. Of course I did not read the article very closely, so I could be wrong. Please correct me if I am.
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And much cheaper to operate. You can buy a heck of a lot of gas for what I just paid for the new battery for my Prius.
I've always looked at that tradeoff. We're thinking about replacing my wife's car within the next couple of years. Saw a '95 Buick Roadmaster with 30,000 miles on it for like $7,000. I did the math and estimated high on the cost of fuel (which penalizes the Buick more than a new 300, for example) and it would take something like 140,000 miles to hit the break-even point before a more efficient car costs less.
Admittedly, there is a reduction in safety equipment in the Buick, but that Roadmaster is a ve
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OK, it only has 30K miles on it.. but even just due to being old, won't it have _some_ more maintenance than a newer car?
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I expect that a Roadmaster (same car under the sheet metal) would behave much th
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Indeed, it would be much better spent on things like improving reading comprehension.
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The reason there are incentives for Orange County is the decommissioning of San Onofre nuclear power plant. That area is now short peak capacity especially, but also base load to a degree. The transmission lines out of San Onofre primarily feed to Orange County and don't have nearly as much import capacity.
Batteries are cost effective at $200/kW. I assume the incentives cover the delta in cost. Chilled water or ice thermal storage is much cheaper, but Irvine Company has a lot of buildings without chille
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how long before SCE adjust there billing metric (Score:2)
I've noticed these coming a common topic amongst developers in Southern California. I've had a few ask me about this, just this week. Assuming this isn't just a flavor of the week (what happened to bloom boxes) my question is will the power company always tune there billing in such a way that makes this profitable. Realistically the buildings will utilize the same amount of power, but the peak loads will level out. in short Edison gets less money for the same kilo watts. How long will they let this fly bef
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In the minds of the utility, by getting customers to shift usage off of peak demand times, or lower the total demand, they don't need to spend money to upgrade generating or transmission / distribution capacity, which is why their billing scheme encourages it.
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The eventual direction will be real-time pricing, where batteries will be very effective. Right now though, Orange County has a power deficit which means any tricks the utility company can pull off help stabilize things.
Real-time pricing will eventually make the hours between 1-2 hours before sunset and 8-9PM be most expensive. This will kill the PV incentives.
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I've noticed these coming a common topic amongst developers in Southern California. I've had a few ask me about this, just this week. Assuming this isn't just a flavor of the week (what happened to bloom boxes) my question is will the power company always tune there billing in such a way that makes this profitable. Realistically the buildings will utilize the same amount of power, but the peak loads will level out. in short Edison gets less money for the same kilo watts. How long will they let this fly before they begin adjusting there billing metric.
As they bring on more Solar and Wind Power, the bulk of their generation power will be available during the day. As we level the power consumption more and more, eventually we are putting more demand at night on a system that is able to generate more power during the day. So as we start shifting more power to wind and solar, we will eventually see peak pricing being during the nighttime hours, especially if everybody charges their EV at night.
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The best power sources tend to be variable themselves - solar, wind, etc. Solar for example does not work at all during the night. We don't control them. The second best power sources tend to involve huge infrastructure that are exp
Is this real? (Score:2)
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Mr. Powers said ....
Now that is a wonderful example of nominative determinism.
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Do the numbers really work for this?
I have no idea.
If they do, why isn't the power company buying up Tesla's production for the foreseeable future?
How much money do you think Tesla would demand in return for shutting down its electric car business, given that it is an electric car company? I'm guessing it would be enough that a power company interested in battery storage would be better off finding their battery supply elsewhere.
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Notice that it only mentions savings on electricity. While this is indeed a long-term saving, it's not taking account of anything to do with the purchase price and maintenance of the system.
I can save you 100% on your electricity for the next year. You just have to buy my huge-arse battery, and pay for a "recharge" once a year. Cost: More than you pay for electricity in a year.
Are peak hours more expensive? (Score:1)
If not, this is a waste, like changing dollars to euros and back again. You will consume more on the long run.
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Yes. Economics 101 - Supply and Demand.
Why Tesla batteries? (Score:2)
I mean, they make sense in a car, because they are light, but for a building a lead-acid battery would make more sense, wouldn't it?
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If "in a building" translates to "a lot of space" then nickel-iron batteries would make the most sense, since they have a very long lifespan and tolerate deep discharges. But I think their max discharge rate is lower than others, meaning you'd need a larger space for the array.
I think lead acid would suffer from similar issues due to the need to keep maximum discharge depth above 50%.
Lithium batteries have a good discharge profile and take less space.
Does Elon Musk own Dice? (Score:2)