Microsoft Manufacturing Surface Hub In the US 124
According to the New York Times, Microsoft has chosen to manufacture its Surface Hub in Wilsonville, Oregon. The announcement follows Apple's decision to build the Mac Pro in Texas. "It makes a lot of sense to manufacture in the U.S.," said Steve Hix, an entrepreneur who founded several Portland-area tech companies, including one that had a manufacturing facility in Wilsonville. "The key issue is quality."
In other words (Score:5, Insightful)
It's an ultra low volume product that has a very limited audience but looks cool to plebs. Since Chinese manufacturing requires a pretty high volume of sales to pay off, m$ gains good pr by keeping it on this side of the Pacific. Not impressed
Re: In other words (Score:1)
Plus income inequality has risen to much that poor US laborers are pretty close to Chinese laborers, cost wise.
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so we get to have work too?
No, the robots get to have work. When manufacturing went to china, a factory with 2000 people in the USA got shut down and a factory with 3000 people in china got opened. As manufacturing is moving back to the USA, the same factory with 3000 people in china is getting shut down and a factory with 25 people in the USA is being opened. That's one of the main reasons that it is cost effective to start moving stuff back to the USA.
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define pretty close...
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I guess the real reason is that Chinese labour costs have increased during the last years. But considering the $20,000 price tag I agree.
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I guess the real reason is that Chinese labour costs have increased during the last years. But considering the $20,000 price tag I agree.
Quite a bit. Chinese labour costs have increased a lot.
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I remember reading that Chinese shoe factory workers were having their wages double every 3 years - for the last 15 years or so.
CSMonitor [csmonitor.com] has an article which mentions that labor costs are rising 15-20% a year in china, and they're up to $6/hour average - barely under US minimum wage. Add quality issues, delays in product delivery, delivery costs, and automation here in the USA, and 'reshoring' is a thing.
Even if a lot of it's going to Mexico. Thing is, once China approaches equity, then the other southea
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There will always be poor countries. Those are the ones without all the shiny planes and nuclear bombs. We know ways to create our own.
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It's not only about the country being poor. Asians tend to have a strong work culture. Africans, not so much.
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Besides what Noughmad said, you also have the problem that making a country 'poor' via the means you mention doesn't actually make them cheap places to do manufacturing in. Destroying their infrastructure and killing their people tends to do that.
You need places with decent infrastructure to support your factory, and workers that are willing to work for cheap to outsource to.
China is 'great' for this, Africa, on average, isn't. Though it's getting closer, and a lot of that is that China is putting a lot o
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Robots and automation will put an end to it all long before that.
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You need people to maintain the robots, so while productivity skyrockets due to the automation, you don't get rid of workers completely.
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Until you have the robots to maintain the robots...
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You need people to maintain the robots, so while productivity skyrockets due to the automation, you don't get rid of workers completely.
Sure, you have one person maintaining 100 robots that produce 100k widgets per hour. How many widgets do you need? A large factory might employ 25 people and produce enough goods for 1M people.
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A large factory might employ 25 people and produce enough goods for 1M people.
Indeed. However, people 'demand' a lot of widgets today, and there's still plenty more that we could use.
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CSMonitor has an article which mentions that labor costs are rising 15-20% a year in china, and they're up to $6/hour average - barely under US minimum wage.
The figures in that article seem to be all wrong. It looks like all numbers should have been Renminbi and somehow got a dollar sign in front of them instead. Current average manufacturing hourly wage in China is around 4 CNY per hour, which is a far cry from the predicted $6 an hour from the CSMonitor article.
Re:In other words (Score:4, Interesting)
Unless there are location advantages, or artificial barriers, pure labor costs will tend to even out as the global labor pool finds a level.
The major questions are:
Where is that level going to be, and are there enough of those jobs for everyone in the world?
Chances are, the level of payment for labor in an automated world is likely to never again approach what it was due to barriers to work movement and strong unions. The reason for that is fairly clear, the race to the bottom, with the combination of not enough manufacturing jobs for everyone means that there is nothing that props up manufacturing wages except those tasks that have not yet been automated.
So the manufacturing sector is pretty much a dead end for employment, but if we can produce goods without the need for labor, then perhaps we can consider making it unnecessary to maintain a menial job to have a living. I don't know if we're actually there yet, but at some point, we may need to start seriously discussing what it means to not have to have full employment while having the ability to produce more than ever. If someone can come up with a basic income idea that doesn't have us ending up as entitled proles who expect the government to pay for everything, which then turns into shitty politicized central planning, it may be worth serious discussion.
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Basic income has the advantage that it still leaves product development up to the market. It also still leaves an advantage to employment as long as it is truly a basic income rather than being means tested. Done well, it even simplifies things since it's hard for an employer to exploit people who can afford to quit.
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I don't know if we're actually there yet, but at some point, we may need to start seriously discussing what it means to not have to have full employment while having the ability to produce more than ever.
We're already there in some ways. Many people could live on less than 40 hours per week. Besides people just wanting more and more, I think the main reason we haven't seen this yet though is because it will always be easier to train one person to work 60 hours than 3 people to each work 20.
If someone can come up with a basic income idea that doesn't have us ending up as entitled proles who expect the government to pay for everything
You're implying that basic income is the only solution. One simple solution without resorting to basic income would be to make it illegal to work more than 20 hours per week. Assuming the same amount of work
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I don't really like the limitation on the number of hours, really. That was always one of the things about unions that bothered me. I am forced to not work to my full potential even on a job I actually like.
If I am going to do a job, I want to do a job that I like. And if I am doing a job I like, then I'd like the opportunity to work at it.
I like working and I like contributing towards a goal. I wouldn't want to be told to go home to give someone else their "turn". I don't mind working 60 hours, as lo
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The eventual goal would be to automate away all the jobs that people don't like to do
but I'm not sure that's 100% possible. Yeah, I like my job but I still would rather be on
the beach sipping a margarita and/or pursueing one of my passions that I can't get
paid for. If everyone was only allowed to work for 20 hours per week then presumably
they could spend the rest of the time volunteering to do whatever job they would
prefer to do. You would have to make sure somehow that it doesn't end up like high
school
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Actually I meant to say what you did, although the wording was awkward. We *used* to have strong unions, but they've fallen apart.
However, I'm not entirely sure a resurgence of unions could really halt this. You'd have to go full-on trade barriers to make it work because in the past, the unions worked while the other countries were undeveloped or recovering from wars. Now, at least in the US, if the union becomes too strong, it will just result in layoffs or competitive disadvantage.
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Consider the end user location of the device, corporate and government boardrooms. Security is a real issue and has such an accessible audit able construction facility a requirement. Customer pressure is bringing change, slowly but surely and the more pressure the greater the change. Want to outsource and offshore, fine sell your product to your outsourced offshore location, don't pretend it is local product and local customers should give it any preference. There can be a real push to force secure by desi
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haha.
funny.
where do you think the panels and chips come from? not made in USA.
it's just an extremely low volume assembly plant they're going to be running in USA. I'd be surprised if they even did plastic molding in usa. hell, I don't think it needs even custom plastics, it looks so plain.
furthermore, like the previous big screen surface(the original surface!) it will not be assembled for a long time, so it doesn't really make sense to train a china assembly line for it, do contracts with foxconn and so fo
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I guess the real reason is that Chinese labour costs have increased during the last years. But considering the $20,000 price tag I agree.
That and importing stuff is a massive pain in the arse. Between ultra complicated and hard to find tariff rules, longshoremen strikes, highly variable shipping costs, theft of goods and the host country's efforts to put backdoors in products manufactured within its borders, it can be easier to just build it at home.
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longshoremen strikes
because having your latest gadget sooner than later is more important than the lives of workers
really, who cares about the sub-humans who handle your goods?
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longshoremen strikes
because having your latest gadget sooner than later is more important than the lives of workers
really, who cares about the sub-humans who handle your goods?
We're a customer of their services. Not an intermediary in their wage negotiations. When all imports can be blocked for weeks, it encourages people to explore local supply options, which is exactly the point.
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Not impressed
Of course not, unless they are doing something that benefits you but does not benefit them at all you wont be impressed. If it keeps a small amount of jobs in the US then surely that is at least even a slightly good thing...though Im sure the resident /. cynics will find some way to put a negative spin on this.
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The negative spin is that an American company opening a factory in the United States is front page news.
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including a lot foreign companies (like BMW)
So BMW opened a sweatshop in the US. The don't treat the workers like BMW employees, they treat them like trailer trash. You are proud of this?
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Re:In other words (Score:5, Informative)
Since Chinese manufacturing requires a pretty high volume of sales to pay off, m$ gains good pr by keeping it on this side of the Pacific. Not impressed
The key word is manufacture. Call me a cynic but I seriously doubt M$ is going to manufacture much in the US.
To the best of my knowledge only Japan, China and Korea have the plants to make most of the components and I can't find any evidence that there are plans to set up the facilities in the US.
It does seem that the screen itself (multiple 8x3' acrylic sheets with LED inserts around the edges) will be US made - so I guess that justifies the proposed "made in" label (and government funding?). From the referenced news (fluff) article (emphasis mine):-
The product is so unusual — representing one of the largest touch screens of its kind — that Microsoft could not find existing assembly lines in Asia to build it on, the company said.
One reason Microsoft’s factory is in Wilsonville, a city of about 21,000 about 20 minutes south of Portland, is that the Surface Hub originated at a start-up called Perceptive Pixel, which Microsoft acquired in 2012. The start-up had an assembly plant in Wilsonville for its giant touch-screen device
Although many components in the product will come from overseas, the Surface Hub will be stamped with the phrase “Manufactured in Portland, OR, USA.
And yeah - the "can't find existing Asian assembly lines big enough" is a bit of a deliberate furphy as assembly lines are built to suit the order - in this case they're just using the existing Perceptive Pixel [wikipedia.org] assembly lines (which makes sense, as they bought the company which includes it's assets). Guess we'll wait and see. If it stays in the US it'll be interesting - especially seeing how they deal with the tax on the income.
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The key word is manufacture. Call me a cynic but I seriously doubt M$ is going to manufacture much in the US.
No single company completely manufactures smartphones. To get an idea, look at this [slashdot.org]. (I'm so sorry I couldn't find a better article).
Parts from the iPhone are manufactured in many different countries, including:
Korea
Italy
Malaysia
Singapore
Japan
Philippines
Scotland
Germany
Mexico
China
Taiwan
Netherlands
Japan
The final assembly happens at Foxconn in China, but that's a small part of the total manufacturing cost. And we aren't even talking about production of the materials, like refining the silicon
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The thing is to ensure the supply chain is good, which is harder some places.
yes because it's easier to ensure an intact supply chain in the USA when all of the parts are coming in containers from china
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$700 million per quarter in Surface sales. We'r'e talking 900,000 units or so every three months.
It's not iPad numbers, but I'm pretty sure that 3.5 million units a year and over $2billion in sales is more than "ultra low volume". That's enough volume to look into potential cost-savings.
Are you more impressed when a company just moves production to China?
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The OP was talking about the ultra-low volume of the Surface Hub, meaning the new giant ones costing between $7k and $20k. Those won't be selling very many. That's right in the title.
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volumes won't be in consumer levels it still could be in the 10's if not hundreds of thousands if successful.
so in other words, a day's output from a chinese factory
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"It's an ultra low volume product that has a very limited audience but looks cool to plebs."
Exactly! They are just used in a few television series and movies where MS pays them millions to do so.
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Windows 10 is going to steamroll Android and iOS tablet sales.
it's already so successful that it's in the "free" bin before it even ships!
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Well, if they use Amazon as a model, a lot of "those cars" for employees will be employees walking or biking to work.
Adapt. Roads were made for bikes and streetcars in most US cities, not for cars.
Makes sense for high ticket items (Score:1)
Apple assembles the Mac Pro in the US because someone did the math and determined that the risk was too high to leave assembly and final QC to an overseas contractor.
When volume is lower and prices are higher you stand to lose a lot more money (and customer good will) when a non-working unit makes it to sale. That, and the temptation for fully assembled ready-for-sale to 'disappear' and 'get lost' in shipping overseas is much higher with more expensive items.
Ship the parts in, get your high quality local, t
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the difference here is that apple actually manages to sell hardware at a profit
microsoft has been failing to profit in hardware since the apple II basic card
Actually the key issue is China couldn't do it (Score:1)
They did not have a facility capable of making the new 84" 4K touchscreen. That process technology exists in the US.
Also a factor is the cost of shipping an 84" 200+ pound screen overseas. Not insignificant.
These are big-ticket, $20,000 items with high margins. The second margin becomes the focus, China is immediately in the running.
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And who buys a touch screen that size?
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And who buys a touch screen that size?
The producers of "CSI: Cyber." Duh :-)
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Tom Cruise used one in Minority Report.
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he did? for real? and I thought it was just a movie.
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CNN.
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And what do they use it for?
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The components are coming from Asia and it's just being assembled in the US.
As for shipping it really isn't that expensive when you fill a shipping container. If you were to ship everything one part at a time via a courier then it would be expensive but they aren't going to do that. Basically there isn't much difference in cost if they are going to fill a container of parts and ship it over or ship over a container of finished products. There's an excellent book called The Box by Marc Levinson that outlin
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that's false. there seems to be multiple 84" "china made" (touch) screens on the market(I guess panels could be from anywhere, like japan or whatever, LG, sharp).
one of their claims is that they "do everything else than the panel" at the factory. proooooobably bullshit as well (chips, circuit boards are unlikely to be manufactured on site as are a number of other things in the machine- so what they're left with is plastics - which I think also to be unlikely to be manufactured on site - they would have th
Well (Score:1)
When you look at some alleged TISA immigration policies you can see why it makes sense.
Not exactly my fav site, but they state it's from Wikileaks, so plausible.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-g... [breitbart.com]
3. Subject to any terms, limitations, conditions and qualifications that the Party sets out
in its Schedule, Parties shall allow entry and temporary stay of [contractual service
suppliers and independent professionals 3 ] for a minimum of [X%] of the following
sectors/sub-sectors:
Professional services:
1. Accounting, aud
Thanks Slashdot! (Score:5, Informative)
Wow, some stuff is getting manufactured, in the nation with the largest manufacturing economy!
Re:Thanks Slashdot! (Score:5, Informative)
Wow, some stuff is getting manufactured, in the nation with the largest manufacturing economy!
China surpassed the US as the world's largest manufacturer in 2010, and has continued to widen the lead [thomasnet.com].
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Yeah, but it's being done by an American company. That is unheard of!
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that "largest manufacturing economy" is not only not correct anymore, it is also somewhat misleading because it defines the size of economy in money. For example, for the price of one F-35 China can build several fighter airplanes, but the size of their manufacturing still will look smaller in comparison. Maybe steel production is better for comparing the manufacturing capacity.
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For example, for the price of one F-35 China can build several fighter airplanes,
For the price of one F-35, America can build several fighter airplanes, too. Your example is misleading.
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They can, but they still build F-35 instead.
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Not really. It isn't that stealthy, it is slow and not very maneuverable.
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USA does not export stealthy aircraft. And no, not maneuverable, because its engine - while very powerful - is alone and F-35 is very very heavy. It is even heavier than F-15, which was considered a heavy-weight, thus F-35's thrust-to-weight ratio is not impressive at all (= not maneuverable). Its wing load is also very high (again = not maneuverable). Thrust vectoring would help, but again, no thrust vectoring except for the carrier version.
The video explanation is full of crap, for example the narrator tr
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The video explanation is full of crap, for example the narrator tries to sell that the top speed of Mach 1.6 is somehow an advantage over older fighters (which can reach Mach 2+). I had to facepalm by then and kept it for the rest of the video.
But your source of information is your own stupid head. Cite a source or shut up, moron.
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http://www.lockheedmartin.com/... [lockheedmartin.com]
just for example.
This is open information. You can get it on Wikipedia FFS. Calculate the wing load yourself. The information of speeds reached by other fighters, their wing load, their thrust to weight ratio is also not a secret. Do the math. You'll see F-35 for the lame duck it is.
Insulting other people just because they tell you some facts you don't like is both dickish and makes you look like an idiot.
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Speed is not all there is to air superiority, and you know it. Estimates are that the F-35 will be able to engage with a six to one relative loss exchange ratio.
Before you were asserting that it wasn't very stealthy. Reports say it is stealthy. Are you going to back yourself up? The F-16 won't even know the F-35 is in the area.
Also, to your original point, China still can't build a single-aisle passenger plane.
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So long as it doesn't divide by zero, that is.
True.
Makes Sense (Score:2)
Probably right down the street from InFocus, FLIR, and Clarity Visual Systems. All of which are based in that same area of Oregon.
Tagged Orygun to help people get the pronunciation.
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Tagged Orygun to help people get the pronunciation.
LOL. Argh! You did NOT just say that :-) But, yes you did.
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No big surprise (Score:2)
The cost of components (not to mention the retail price) is so high that assembly labor is almost in the noise, just like any other big ticket item. They may even be saving money on the deal, if you factor in shipping costs (which isn't true of the Mac Pro).
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You're thinking old school. Assembly labor is a small fraction, as plants like this are designed automated from the ground up. Even the QA is mostly automated. Observed and confirmed by humans, but it's a mostly automated process.
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build a factory from scratch to assemble 10 big screens before they go obsolete?
Makes sense... (Score:3)
The R/D department for this lives in Portland (Perceptive Pixel, acquired by MS). Plenty of room in Wilsonville. Power is still fairly cheap here (hydro power from the Columbia dams). So, yea, makes sense. Sure, milk it for media points, but in the end, it's just a business decision.
Are they saying... (Score:1)
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It's pretty unlikely that you have a vehicle that is foreign assembled. Most of the foreign brand vehicles in the US were assembled here.
only if you count the disassembly and reassembly that are done at the mechanic's garage
It's not so much American Quality (Score:3)
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it's just much easier to keep tabs on your supplier (and ship product back for repairs) when they're not across an ocean.
that's why things are made in china, all the parts are from china
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That's obviously not true... [youtube.com]
It was only a matter of time (Score:3)
before our robots became cheaper than their workers, and capable enough to do the job.
Don't be fooled into thinking this trend is much of a local employment boon.
(Unless you're a robot.)
The key issue is cheap immigrant labor (Score:1)
and that's the America we know and love.
Halo Products Made in USA (Score:2)
Electric guitar manufactures charge a premium for guitars made in the USA. It would be nice if other manufacturers started to pick up on this. There are probably benefits too in having a certain amount of your production done in close proximity to your engineers and design team.
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Electric guitar manufactures charge a premium for guitars made in the USA.
I noticed that as well. Since I could not tell a good guitar from an excellent one, I've wondered if people are paying the premium for the "made in the USA" tag or whether they do so because there's an actual product difference.
It is my understanding that Japanese and Korean made guitars used to be seen as rubbish knock-offs, but today they carry a more positive reputation. In any case, music and luxury items markets behave differently than consumer electronics. I don't think I'd pay a premium for a Surfac
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Yeah my experience has been with Music Man who make excellent quality instruments in California..,. not much with the larger makers.