Startup Touts All-in-One Digital Credit Card 222
First time accepted submitter NoImNotNineVolt writes "Coin, a Y Combinator-backed startup, has started accepting pre-orders for a device as slim as a standard piece of payment plastic that can hold eight credit, debit, and gift cards in its dynamic magnetic stripe. Paired with the Coin smartphone app via Bluetooth low energy, card details can easily be swapped in and out of the device. A minimalist user interface on the device itself allows the owner to toggle between the loaded cards and then swipe just as they would their ordinary card. All card details are encrypted (both on the device and in the smartphone app), and the device's on-board battery is expected to last for two years of typical usage. No support for chip&pin (EMV) yet, so this may have limited utility outside of the USA. They expect to start shipping in summer of 2014."
Great for CC scammers (Score:5, Insightful)
But, I don't see this catching on. Tapping to pay with your device is "new" so people don't think much of it. Paying with an "all in one" credit card isn't something most will be used to. Plus, I'd expect pushback from Visa/AMEX on this.
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I suppose you can create an account in the name of the victim, then snap pictures of their card, then swipe it... But that's not exactly the best skimming solution I've heard of.
Re:Great for CC scammers (Score:5, Insightful)
Quick little dive in to the code with a debugger and watch those limitations vanish in front of your eyes......
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Sure, but with those skills, you could program the skimmer drivers in the first place.
Re:Great for CC scammers (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't think the issue is so much with having a skimmer. Right now if i show up with a card that doesn't look like an actual CC the person at the counter will think something is up. But if this gets going and has blessings of the CC makers, and looks official the teller will just say "hey he has that neat new card" and not care that you are no infact using a skimmer.
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With all the personalizable cards out there (email them a picture and they make it the background of the card), many credit cards don't look like "regular" cards anyways. About the only thing that would give it away (and be difficult to change on-the-fly) would be the embossed numbers. Since the numbers on the front are never presented electronically at any time to the cashier would never know if you simply used fake numbers and only changed the electronic part.
So basically, the CC companies have already de
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http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Chip+and+Pin [lmgtfy.com]
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- You know what a chip is (in the context of IT)?
- You know what a PIN is (likewise)?
- You've seen cards (e.g. payment or identity cards) with chips in?
- You've seen people type in their PINs in order to use those cards with chips in?
- If you've made it here, then you know what chip and pin is.
I
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Tracks one and three are typically recorded at 210 bits per inch (8.27 bits per mm), while track two typically has a recording density of 75 bits per inch (2.95 bits per mm).
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something invented in America in the 70's use imperial? shocking.
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Re:Great for CC scammers (Score:5, Informative)
This style of card is becoming more common in Europe right now, and a lot of automated terminals won't take a card that only has a magnetic stripe, apparently.
It is almost universal in Europe (95% of terminals, 85% of cards, two years ago), and plenty of other countries. A card with a chip is almost essential if you travel to Europe -- I can't remember the last time I saw a ticket machine (or similar) accept a magstripe.
http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/american-travelers-guide-emv-chip-cards-1271.php [creditcards.com] is informative. I'm not convinced by '"In fact, as a late adopter of EMV, there's a great upside for the industry in the U.S. because we can avoid much of the cost and complexity involved in deploying older-generation chip cards, while still reaping all of the benefits of reduced counterfeit fraud,"' -- the US industry has had 10 extra years of fraud! (I have to phone my bank before using my card in the US, and give them the dates I will be travelling. Numbers are stolen in Europe, and used on fake cards in the US.)
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A card with a chip is almost essential if you travel to Europe -- I can't remember the last time I saw a ticket machine (or similar) accept a magstripe.
Reality check about "almost essential" – I travel to Europe quite frequently. This year alone I've been to London, Brussels, Geneva, Zurich, Vienna, Brno, plus Bangalore and Tokyo. (Not bragging, just saying'. And yeah, I'm sure lots of people have been to even more places than I have.)
I've never (never, ever, ever) had an issue paying for things with my non-chip-and-pin American credit cards. Hotels, train tickets, cab rides, meals in restaurants, buying souvenirs, food in grocery stores, and withdra
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I don't know where people get this idea that you have to have a chip-and-pin CC to get by in Europe. It's just not true.
I live in the UK, so examples of things you wouldn't be able to buy with a card include:
- train tickets (you'll need cash, or else a long queue if there's a human option)
- car parking (sometimes cash won't be an option, though that's rare)
- occasional smaller businesses (shops, restaurants) who will want cash instead due to the fraud risk
- any other ticket machine (e.g. cinema)
OK, it's more of an inconvenience than a necessity. It's ridiculous that the US has barely started to use the system though -- it's
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OK, it's more of an inconvenience than a necessity. It's ridiculous that the US has barely started to use the system though -- it's almost 10 years old.
The US hasn't switched to metric system or dollar coins yet. Partly due to cost, partly due to "things works fine the way they are," and I suspect partly because they must be "leaders" in everything and can't be seen as "following the rest of the world."
I predict that the US still won't have fully (or at least 99%) converted to chip&pin credit card terminals (even with magstripe fallback) by 2020.
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I don't ,chip and pin have known flaws, are barely more secure than regular cards, and new the majority of new terminals aren't even the NFC swipe it over type after 10 years.
Let alone at the end of the day each transaction takes longer than magnetic strip ones. I have yet to see a compelling reason.
I had a card that used NFC to tap and go. in general the average transaction took just as long to do as handing my card over or swiping the card myself.
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The UK has seen a 66% drop in retail (point of sale) fraud since C+P was introduced in 2004. Lost and stolen fraud is at the lowest level in 20 years. Is that a compelling reason? I have to telephone my bank in advance if I want to use my cards in the USA -- they're blocked by default there, as the systems are insecure. I can use my card in Poland, Romania etc with no problems.
The PIN transaction doesn't take longer. I put the card into the machine (it doesn't leave my possession), read the display to c
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What exactly is Chip & Pin?? It was mentioned in the article..something about it being used outside the US...
It's a colonial contraption [wikipedia.org] meant to do something nasty to America. Don't use it.
Sounds sketchy to me (Score:2)
Can't skim cards [easily] with this. Apparently to "load" a new card, you've gotta snap some pictures of it and swipe it through the [included] card reader. And the card has to be in your name.
Why does it need a picture of the card? That seems strange. RTFA, but it doesn't have any more detail than your comment. I did like this nugget:
"If it loses contact with your phone for a self-designated amount of time, Coin will deactivate itself."
Nice security feature. Until my phone runs out of charge, and suddenly I can make a call and I can't use my credit cards.
I have the same thought from all the proposed smart phone-as-wallet apps. Great, let me put all my eggs in one easy to lose, easy to break
Re:Great for CC scammers (Score:4, Informative)
Obviously, cloned cards can be a fraud tool, and fraud is illegal; and obviously most people have neither the tech nor the interest to clone mag stripe cards; but does Visa give a damn if I clone my card and swipe the clone, instead of the one they mailed me, at the point of sale? Do they claim some sort of 'despite all appearances to the contrary, card remains property of issuer, etc, etc, yadda, just shut up and swipe' clause? Have they ever been tried on that point?
There has never been anything magic (aside from convenience, getting a full-color printed, shiny holograms, embossed characters, encoded mag stripe, card in quantity 1 costs a hell of a lot more than quantity 1 zillion) about the card itself, nor do mag-stripe cards have any secrets embedded (unlike chip-and-pin, which theoretically, like a SIM, contains values that should never leave the IC under any circumstances short of silicon-level attack), and a lot of transactions occur with nothing more than the card number, since they go over the web.
I assume that if they do care, their easiest point of attack would just be to be enormous rules-lawyering dickheads about every last detail of PCI compliance, which would likely make the server/app side of things virtually impossible; but would the card-cloning itself, if not used for already illegal fraud of some kind, be an issue?
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They likely have the power to seriously derail it(at least the software side); but if they are more worried about non-CC-based competitors cutting in on their action, with phone-based payments, or paypal QR code scanning, or some such nonsense, a different variant seems to pop up about once a week, they might actually welcome somebo
Re:Great for CC scammers (Score:5, Interesting)
Vendors are not supposed to accept card without a valid signature on them. That alone would place them in breach of contract with the credit issuers and card processors if they accepted a cloned card.
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If someone happens to gain possession of your card, do you also want to give them a template of your signature so they could practice their forgery?
Good luck getting a chargeback when the charge receipt has your signature on it. Fuck that.
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My credit card signature is "See Photo ID."
Occasionally, the cashiers even check it!
Re:Great for CC scammers (Score:4)
Re:Great for CC scammers (Score:4, Insightful)
Meh. It's his signature, and he can draw it any way he wants to.
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Technically, it's not a comparison template.
The signature on the card signifies you agree to the terms and conditions of your cardholder agreement. I.e., it's th
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I don't doubt that getting a real person to accept a blank, white, cheap 'n nasty 'n barely ISO 7813-compliant card as a "real credit card" would be a difficult task; but what I don't know is what history, backed by legal or contractual force, there is (if any) concerning not-otherwise-criminal use of cloned cards.
Do merchant contracts also require Visa/Amex logos/trademarks on accepted cards? Do the feds or any states consider cloned cards to be presumptively instrument
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If Visa find out you cloned your card and someone uses that clone to defraud you, you'll can bet your ass Visa will make you liable for their fraudulent charges.
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I assume that if they do care, their easiest point of attack would just be to be enormous rules-lawyering dickheads about every last detail of PCI compliance,
With regards to PCI why would these guys have to care? PCI is not law and the only teeth PCI compliance has comes in the form of merchant relationships issuers/card vendors. If your not in that path industry can make all the rules it wants and you are free to ignore them because they can't touch you.
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I'd be very surprised if the criminals couldn't get their hands on the equipment. It is widely available [ebay.com] and not particularly expensive.
At last (Score:2)
Finally - a "smart wallet" that would actually be more convenient to use (or at least no less convenient) than the credit cards I already have in my wallet.
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Why do you have more than two credit cards?
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United-branded VISA, free checked bags, free priority boarding.
Marriott-branded VISA, free rooms, free Silver status.
etc.
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Because I travel a lot (full time vagrant) and sometimes my bank will put a hold on my primary card. I think I finally convinced them to call me before putting a hold if they start to get suspicious of my spending activity but it's good to have a backup to use immediately so I'm not standing there like a chump, trying to get the hold lifted, people in line behind me getting angry. Also, my backup card is my oldest revolving line of credit. I wouldn't want to carry a balance on it because of the absurd in
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Why do you have more than two credit cards?
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1. A debit card that is used mostly at the ATM, but sometimes for small purchases. If I didn't need it for ATM access I would get rid of it because debit cards have very poor protection from fraud and mistakes. We were once double charged for groceries and it took almost a week to get $200 back. I don't use it for any large purchases anymore. Or shop at that store.
2. Amex because I think they have the best fraud division and customer service in my op
Cute; but why? (Score:5, Insightful)
I need another intermediary in my payment system like I need a hole in the head(and I certainly don't need any credit card details stashed in yet another OMGTOTALLY SECURE!!! server or app), and I'd need a hell of a lot of plastic infesting my wallet before a $100 piece of hardware, and BTLE-compatible smartphone become the lower-hassle alternative.
Along with a card reader, it'd probably be great fun as a tool for duplicating low security cards(eg. copier stored value cards, which commonly actually store their value in the stripe, rather than just encoding an ID that gets looked up by the payment processor), and generally fucking around with mag stripe readers; but for actual real-world financial transactions? How many credit cards do you carry on a daily basis?
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I have accounts with three different banks. I have four credit cards on top of that. That's already seven cards, a stack over 5mm thick, which fits in my wallet without giving me scoliosis.
I also have various hotel, airline, and car rental rewards program cards (if you travel for work and don't have these, you're seriously missing out). Store loyalty cards. Occasionally even gift cards. This is all shit that I can't be troubled
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And pre-order is only $50 (+$5 shipping).
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I've got a crap-ton of mag-stripe cards. Debit card, credit card, backup credit card, and AAA card are always in my wallet. I have about 10 different "loyalty" cards and I rarely remember to grab the ones I need when I run errands. It'd be nice to have all of my mag-stripe cards available in a single card. Then I could carry more cash in my wallet. MrBurnsStuffingWallet.jpg
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Visa or Mastercard can tell you to fuck off if someone made the transactions on a card you cloned.
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Really?
Where is that written in the Cardholder Agreement?
Security (Score:2)
I've read the articles, watched the video on their site, and read the FAQ. It is unclear whether the app actually sends your card information to their servers. As I posted over on Hacker News:
No, Coin, I'm not going to store all of my credit and debit cards in a single spot on the Internet.
Your app has to work without Internet, or it's a security risk.
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Encryption... on its server... ehhhhh...
Well, that's what chargebacks are for, right?
To bad it's way less secure than chip and PIN (Score:4, Insightful)
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We use paper checks for everything.
We hand credit cards to waiters/waitresses, who then carry them off to the card skimming room, I mean the cash register, to pay for meals at restaurants.
Chip&pin does not exist.
Just a few months ago, one of my credit cards finally moved to chip&pin. In my social circle, I'm the first to have a chip&pin card. It's fucking 2013.
That being said, this card seems no less sec
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We use paper checks for everything.
Really? I've had the same check book since I first opened my account, 10 years ago. It still has around 10 checks left... might actually have to order another sometime in the next few years.
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But let's say you wanted to send me some money and we shared a mutual hatred of paypal. I suppose you could use your bank's online billpay feature, add me as a payee, and then shoot over some money. But on my end, since I'm not a major corporation with all sorts of electronic banking shit, all I get is a nicely printed check, mailed from your bank.
Same ol' paper check, it's just that you didn't have to bust out the ol' pen to write
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I use paper checks to transfer funds between my and my wife's accounts. Using a cellphone to photograph and deposit a check actually makes the funds available faster than any of the various other transfer money mechanisms would. Ridiculous, but true.
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A lot of places don't accept paper checks anymore.
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When I travelled to New Zealand, where chip & PIN is common, I was amazed that absolutely every store asked to see the signature on my card. In the US, nobody cares, apart from perhaps one or two very rare merchants that have probably been burned by not checking the signature.
That said, I've never had my card stolen (though I've had it replaced after a possible threat of being skimmed), so as long as my bank is willing to still take the liability if it's stolen, I don't care if the number is written acr
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The display on the terminal is coming from your bank. It is the amount that you are actually being charged. The display on the cash register is showing whatever the shop wants it to show, and may not necessarily equate with what they are requesting from the bank.
Apparently good enough for Americans... (Score:2)
"All in one"? ALL?
Those 'inventors' live in 80's or what? Unless you provide proper modern card functionality, you can't claim ALL. Heck, your card does not support anything mildly innovative, such as displaying your account balance.
This questionable invention seems to be limited to markets with no security (USA) which want to remain in Dark Ages, or to scammers who want to impersonate people from those countries.
This is even worse than UK card terminals that attempt offline PIN authorisation, yet another s
idiots paying by check were bad? (Score:2)
imagine idiots using this contraption trying to show themselves off and changing out credit cards at the register or setting their phone up to pay
I already have something that holds 8 credit cards (Score:2)
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First World Problems
Why not just use the app (Score:3)
If you load all that stuff into your card via the phone, why not just use NFC in the phone to pay? Oh wait, because people won't do that either.
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It's getting more and more common.
Visa call is "Paywave" and Mastercard call it "Paypass".
When the rentals on the terminals expire, the merchants will have no choice but to get an NFC compatable terminal.
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I didn't realize that most of the major carriers (pretty much everyone but Sprint) are working on their own so-far stillborn alternative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isis_%28mobile_payment_system%29), so they don't allow Google Wallet to function.
That's OK, this is fixed in Kitkat.
No EMV, not going to be useful by 2015 (Score:4, Informative)
I hear they're working on one that's EMV compatible, but there's no point in releasing sometime in 2014 what they've proposed now as Chip+PIN/EMV will be rolled out en-mass in the US. The networks (Visa, MC, AMEX, Discover) are starting a liability shift and most will go into effect in Oct 2015: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMV#United_States [wikipedia.org]
What this means is the liability of any card fraud that occurs after that date with be moved to the entity that hasn't implemented EMV. That includes the card issuing bank, the merchant acquirer (the entity that the merchant uses to process cards), and even the merchant itself if they refused to update their terminals or POS systems. If fraud does occur and everyone is up to date with EMV, the procedure is the same as it is today supposedly.
I personally have my reservations about the system since there have been a string of compromised terminals in the past and the banks incorrectly blamed the card holder because the system was "fraud-proof" according to them. Hopefully those shenanigans don't happen in with US banks as this rolls out.
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EMV is not necessarily Chip+PIN. Chip+Signature Prefered and even Chip+Signature Only still complies.
My card from Bank of America is Chip + Signature Only, so I can't buy train tickets from kiosks in Euopre bu I can use ATMs in Europe because they fall back to mag stripe + PIN.
Loyalty Cards (Score:2)
I just pre-ordered a Coin. I live in Canada where 100% of my credit cards and debit cards are Chip & PIN so this is of zero use to me from that angle. The whole reason I am getting it is so I can ditch all the damn loyalty cards. Day to day, I only carry around 1 credit card and 1 debit card - I have no need for more. But I have currently in my wally 4 different loyalty cards AND a gift card that I need to use. If Coin can take 4 loyalty cards and turn them into 1, then it is worth $50 to me. And this w
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EMV (Chip + PIN) should be EASIER than the kludge stripe simulation. EMV uses a standardized connector, is essentially just a processor and storage with that EMV firmware, and all they will need is membership and licensing in the EMV infrastructure organizations.
Of course that licensing will be the doom of this.
BTW, EMV's ultimate risk-shift is to the cardholder. If you claim fraudulent use, all the rest will claim you must have lost your card and not reported it (magically reappearing in your possession,
Pointless without EMV (Score:3)
No support for chip&pin (EMV) yet, so this may have limited utility outside of the USA. They expect to start shipping in summer of 2014."
Considering that all US merchants have to be capable of using EMV[1] by October of 2015 [burlingtonbankcard.com], perhaps that two year battery life is about right, because that's all the longer they will be useful. And most merchant services are pushing hard to have everyone capable of taking EMV by the middle of 2014.
Mag strip cards will be around for as long as the current ones out there last, but most new cards being issued now are EMV capable, and very soon, all of them will have to be. Without EMV support, this is, at best, a short term fad. And eventually, mag strip cards will just disappear, and merchants will have no reason to be able to take them.
[1]Technically, not required to stop taking mag strip only, but those who don't become 100% responsible for all fraud, automatically, regardless of the circumstances. As a carrot to go with the stick, those who get EMV up and going are not longer resopnsible for the sometimes pain-in-the-ass (and often expensive for small operations) requirements for PCI compliance [pcisecuritystandards.org].
EMV is designed so you CAN'T copy it. (Score:2)
Pointless without EMV
Don't expect it soon. The whole point of EMV is to be IMPOSSIBLE to clone. To the credit card chip designers, this thing is exactly the same as a clone-and-spoof attack.
They put a little computer on the card and run encrypted protocols with the store terminal.
The details of the computer are closely held. (I was once asked to work on hardware for one, but it would have required a major security clearance investigation and a contract that, IMHO, would have made it difficult to work on
$100 for two years of life? (Score:2)
Q. How long does a Coin last? Do I recharge it? What happens when my Coin’s battery dies?
A. Coins are designed to last for 2 years under normal usage and do not need to be recharged. Once the battery dies you will need to replace your Coin.
For $100? I don't think so.
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In 2 years they will be obsolete. Since mag strips won't be mandatory and every terminal will accept chip cards. Those that do accept a mag strip will be liable for fraud.
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$4/mo. isn't insane, but it's way too much for me. On the other hand, I'm tired of having so many cards. Is it worth $4/mo. to not have to carry them all? No. $1/mo., maybe.
Maybe the second generation will be under $20.
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Google Wallet is free app for your smart phone.
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I can't seem to fit my phone into the slot to swipe it.
Too late. (Score:2)
Cards are moving to chips and NFC.
If I swipe my credit card in a terminal with a chip reader, it rejects and tells me to insert the card.
This isn't new... (Score:2)
A few years back, I remember a startup which had a card that was programmable with any magstripe ID, but instead of Bluetooth, it had a few small wires between the main handheld apparatus and the card itself.
It went over like a lead balloon, and I don't even remember the name of the contraption maker.
Intead, I'd much rather see the smartphone itself be the payment device using Bluetooth between it and the register [1]. The register sends a signed transaction, the device validates the signature and asks if
Card Not Present (Score:3)
Wouldn't retailers be required to treat these transactions as "Card Not Present" transactions [wikipedia.org], meaning that far fewer would accept them?
I believe the liability is increased to the merchant if they just accept a CC number + expiration + CVV, to which accepting this would be functionally equivalent.
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Can you do a real 'card-not-present' transaction with it?
So i loaded all my cards into this thing and i want to buy something online. It looks like it displays part of the CC # so can it scroll the whole number to enter? What about the CCV on the back of trhe card? Most online stuff won't process without it and it isn't stored or is it?
PS, OK slashdot I'll change systems or browsers already. God, this site runs slower than my XT. Actually feels like I am typing on a 300 baud modem with the display half a li
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EMV IC Cards (Score:2)
Great security feature... (Score:2)
If it loses contact with your phone for a self-designated amount of time, Coin will deactivate itself.
So when you phone battery goes flat (and it will go flat quicker, with this app in the background waking up periodically and communicating with the card), you can't buy a new charger to charge it.
AMEX and DISCOVER would probably love this (Score:2)
Some establishments actually do accept AMEX and DISC cards but swipe subtly attempt to dissuade customers from using them because of their higher swipe fees. With this device and the way most bill are handled, the cashier would probably need to swipe this generic card and now it's generally too late to go back to the customer to change negating this specific fee avoidance strategy***
***I suppose they could swipe the generic card charge, note that the charge was AMEX, reverse the charge, return the card bac
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"because of their higher swipe fees."
I dunno about Discover, but if you're a merchant, and you're thinking Amex is noticeably more expensive to accept, I dare you to challenge your processor or bank to break out all of your fees.
You will not be happy. The other cards have caught up.
Good idea, wrong approach. (Score:2)
This would be a great thing for cloning all those obnoxious loyalty cards that clog your billfold, if it could clone those, but I'm guessing it is only for credit cards.
IMO, the right solution for credit cards is entirely different. What someone needs to do is work with Visa/MC/Amex to create a card that serves as a proxy card for multiple cards. It should have its own number, and each charge is treated as a preauthorization on your default card. Then, at any time before midnight on the day you make a
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This would be a great thing for cloning all those obnoxious loyalty cards that clog your billfold, if it could clone those, but I'm guessing it is only for credit cards.
If you have a transflective, decently high-resolution display, you can display barcodes on your screen and the scanner can read them. Most loyalty cards have barcodes even if they have magstrips.
Google Wallet. (Score:2)
Is what I use. I don't see why , at this point, we need another thing to carry.
Didn't work for iCache Geode... (Score:5, Informative)
Been there done that. This was the same thing touted by the folks at "iCache" who released a few test units of the "Geode" -- an iPhone jacket and universal card combo that could do this as well as provide support for barcodes using an e-ink window on the back of the case.
Unfortunately, the company -- after a successful Kickstarter and infusion of venture cash, crashed and burned. HARD.
http://www.zdnet.com/icache-geodes-spectacular-crash-and-burn-7000014801/
As it turns out, there were huge limitations on where this type of "cloned" card could be used -- no ATMs, no "pull through" swipers like at gas pumps... It all fell apart quite noisily with accusations of fraud and deceit on the part of the company's founders.
The bottom line is this: Payment card providers require three things: 1) the card should be signed, 2) the card should be present so the merchant can verify the expiration and CVV (or pay a CNP fee), and 3) the card provider's logo must be visible on the card. Failure to comply with any of the three means a merchant may lose his ability to accept cards to the provider. The Geode could do ONE of those things; the same goes for this card, as technically interesting as it may be.
And of course this goes out the window as NFC or chip-and-pin cards eventually come into fashion in the US (as chip-and-pin already is in Europe).
It should be called OneCard (Score:2)
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my precious
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. . .when your credit is declined and the clerk whips out the scissors.
In what parts of this worlds somebody can destroy my card without my permission?
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I use a credit card to save money.
I get over a month interest free. That's over a month of interest I don't have to pay on my mortgage if I used cash.
The cash back rewards also pays for the annual fee several times over.
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I wouldn't want to go there. I prefer to have three cards - it would be too easy to forget to switch to the correct account, or fuck it up when you're half drunk. Also you'll never be able to use this with ICC/Chip&Pin as the systems are designed to make it impractically difficult to extract the keys.