Steve Jobs Was Wrong About Touchscreen Laptops 526
theodp writes "Don't believe everything Steve Jobs and Tim Cook tell you, advises The Verge's Sean Hollister. Gunshy of touchscreen laptops after hearing the two Apple CEOs dismiss the technology (Jobs: 'Touch surfaces don't want to be vertical.' Cook: 'You can converge a toaster and a refrigerator, but those things are probably not gonna be pleasing to the user.'), Hollister was surprised to discover that Windows 8 touchscreen laptops actually don't suck and that the dreaded 'Gorilla Arm Syndrome' did not materialize. 'The more I've used Windows 8, despite its faults, the more I've become convinced that touchscreens are the future — even vertical ones,' writes Hollister. 'We've been looking at this all wrong. A touchscreen isn't a replacement for a keyboard or mouse, it's a complement.' Echoing a prediction from Coding Horror's Jeff Atwood that 'it is only a matter of time before all laptops must be touch laptops,' Hollister wouldn't be surprised at all if Apple eventually embraces-and-extends the tech: 'Microsoft might have validated the idea, but now Apple has another chance to swoop in, perfecting and popularizing the very interface that it strategically ridiculed just two years ago. It wouldn't be the first time. After all, how many iPad minis come with sandpaper for filing fingers down?'"
It's very possible (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously? (Score:4, Insightful)
" I'm not going to touch-type 70 words per minute on a touchscreen keyboard. But when I'm in the cramped quarters of a train, plane, or standing in a line — say, when the only thing standing between a critical email and its recipient is a few dozen words and a tap of the button marked "Send" — I can grab that Windows 8 laptop by its hinged section, one hand on either side of the screen, and tap out that message with my thumbs."
You have to be kidding me. That is the most ridiculous way to type anything on a laptop. Ever.
Really? (Score:5, Insightful)
Touchscreens have been around for decades. If pointing your arm at a vertical surface was such a hot idea for 8 hours a day, why have we not seen touchscreens being used everywhere for the last 30 years? NEC had an excellent touchscreen in the mid 80s. This isn't new technology and writing articles presenting it as new tech doesn't make it new.
Gorilla arm exists. Fatigue exists. Keyboards and other stuff are better input devices than touchscreens and probably always will be, except for the times you *can't* have a keyboard or mouse/tablet/trackball/etc., like a factory floor, restaurant, bar, hospital cart in sugery, etc, where dirt, grime, bodily fluids are a threat to operation, or where ease of portability trumps having a better input device, like tablets or phones (styluses are passe).
If touch was so superior for every day use, we'd already be using it.
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BMO
Microsoft never ceases to amaze me (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It's very possible (Score:5, Insightful)
It's very possible it has more to do with cheetos
Re:Before the eight-hate arrives, I just want to s (Score:4, Insightful)
It's funny how the criticisms of touch get brushed aside and people like you and SINternet insult the people criticizing.
"You haven't used it long enough!"
"You're a luddite!"
"You're lazy!"
"It's really great, you're just old!"
"Look, this 3 year old can open a program! If you don't like it, you're stupider than a 3 year old!"
And on and on it goes.
Good job selling us on this. Really. Good. Job.
> New things can take some getting used to
Hey, this isn't marmite in this sandwich. It smells like shit! Hey, wait...
"Just take smaller bites!"
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BMO
Re:Really? (Score:5, Insightful)
You're issuing a false dilemma by saying that it's all touch or all keyboard/mouse. It can be both, and that's the point of the article. Keyboards are usually better for typing, but using a mouse isn't always easier for pointing, and sometimes using a keyboard isn't convenient. Having touch, mouse, and keyboard all available makes sense, because you can use whichever is best for the situation you're in.
Re:It's very possible (Score:5, Insightful)
It's also very possible that the Asus Transformer range showed that a good touchscreen tablet/laptop combo is a useful bit of gear well before "Microsoft might have validated the idea".
What's the obsession with pretending Apple and Microsoft are the only computer vendors on Slashdot? Most of the stuff they do has been done before and better by more interesting companies.
Let's face facts, W8 is tanking because it's dull and irritating. Why keep talking it up here?
Re:Before the eight-hate arrives, I just want to s (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Really? (Score:5, Insightful)
Where did I introduce the false dichotomy?
I didn't say that touch is bad. I said it has its place. We could have been using touch in conjunction with keyboards, mice, and other input devices on office desktops for 30 years or more (Touchscreens actually go back a decade or so before that, and light pens even before that), but we haven't. There was no explosion of touch and light pens on the desktop. And as soon as the mouse showed up in large numbers, light pens pretty much disappeared, with LCD display technology putting the final nail in the light-pen coffin.
Because people actually dislike having to poke at a vertical surface all stupid day.
As the guy up in the thread there said, it's not because of Apple and Jobs that we hate touch on vertical surfaces, the hate goes back *much* farther than that.
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BMO
Re:It's very possible (Score:5, Insightful)
This. How come no other comments mention this? I don't want to clean oily fingers off my screen all day, every day. Natural oils, not even junk food. I can deal with this on my phone, but not the devices I read/write large blocks of text into 8 (who am I kidding, 14) hours a day....
Re:Microsoft never ceases to amaze me (Score:5, Insightful)
MS was doing fine with Windows 7, but their fear is now controlling them. They saw Apple create a new market, one which should have been MS's; would have been, had they only refined the technology. Now they're freaking out, because Ballmer thinks he is having a B. Gates moment -> that moment when Gates realized his company was going to be side-swiped by the internet, and needed to change their strategy to survive; he is not, he is actually having a Marketing moment, similar to a mid-life crisis, when you are worried that because you are not considered the industry darling, you must be doing something wrong, so you start doing something, anything, to get some attention to validate your self-worth. It's the same thing that movie stars / record artists go through after they hit their 'peak'; they may still be on top, but since they measure themselves by relative or dynamic amounts (delta), as opposed to absolute amounts, a lack of change seems like they are failing.
If MS wants a new technology to pioneer, let them pair up with John Romero (or whoever it is) that is working on a new virtual glove interface. That's something that Apple hasn't touched yet, and something which even I am interested in. Tactile (smart metal, using a grid in the palm) feedback gloves, using a Bluetooth connection in each glove, to send and receive 3D information, with a mini-USB cable for charging. Like John, I am disturbed at the lack of progress in this realm, and have been considering building a prototype (I have been designing one) since the price for the components has dropped. This is where MS should be looking, especially since one of ID's people is looking into it. Of course, the question will be, if they do pioneer it, can they make a glove that 1.) works well, 2.) is easy to program for, 3.) integrates into Windows / Office, and 4.) is aesthetically pleasing to look at (the Hipster factor / Apple factor). Or will they wait for Apple to adopt it first, before considering it?
Re:It's very possible (Score:4, Insightful)
Honestly, I though the Cheetos factor would sink the iPad, too. Didn't happen.
Re:Before the eight-hate arrives, I just want to s (Score:4, Insightful)
More like, should we transition from horses and buggies to llamas and rowboats?
Because that's what Microsoft is now expecting us to do with Windows 8.
Re:Microsoft never ceases to amaze me (Score:5, Insightful)
I feel this has less to do with Microsoft and more to do with The Verge. Reading the article again, it spends as much time talking about Apple as it does talking about Windows 8 not sucking. Hollister makes a point to mention that Apple did not invent the first MP3 player or the first touchscreen smartphone, or the first graphical user interface, or the first solid state drive in a laptop. As an Apple fan myself, my gut instinct it to just dismiss the statement as typical of Apple haters that sell the fictitious storyline that Apple and Apple's fans claim invention above all else as opposed to taking existing things that aren't being used right and then making them work seamlessly. Then, Hollister immediately follows by pointing out that Apple likes to wait for a technology to mature, then "swoop" in and perfect then popularize it. Putting aside the fact that I've never seen mature MP3 players, GUIs, or touchscreen smartphones prior to Apple getting involved, the writing is designed to generate talk which, in turn, generates clicks.
The article is garbage. It's premise about touchpad laptops not sucking despite what Steve Jobs said isn't even accurate in context. Touch screens have existed for years. Anyone working at a steakhouse now could have pointed that out. Jobs' problem with touchpad laptops in 2010 was that 2010 era laptops were loud, hot, and big. Hand-writing recognition sucked. Jobs was correct. All those Windows powered touch screen laptops did suck, and they didn't want to be used vertically. Almost three years later, things have changed. We have Surface, Transformer, and ultrabook laptops, and higher pixel density screens. So no, NOT surprisingly touch screen laptops don't suck. That said, about the only use I have for a touch screen ultrabook type laptop is by my beside as a kind of info kiosk and Skype interface for when I'm on the road. Anywhere else where I want a laptop, I can use a real laptop with far better performance.
Hollister should have concluded with it a GOTO 10 statement. And as one person above already put it: cheetos. Cheetos are a reason touch screens suck and I don't want them on my laptops. As it is now, I'm constantly polishing my phone and iPad.
I wouldn't count out Microsoft yet. Surface and Windows Phone 8 are exciting. So Microsoft has to settle for being third in the mobile space for a while, so what? There's still Windows and Xbox. The people who use those products either love them or are in some way forced to use them.
Re:It's very possible (Score:3, Insightful)
What's the obsession with pretending Apple and Microsoft are the only computer vendors on Slashdot?
Microsoft is a software company, not a computer vendor.
They have a similar advantage that Google has over Apple. Their OS supports multiple different kinds of hardware, so the end user has more flexibility; it doesn't matter to them which computer vendor sells you the solution, and the Android transformer is a boon to Google's platform.
With Apple, you can only have hardware that Apple has specifically designed, which increases cost and limits your flexibility, expandability, and options.
Last I checked, you couldn't even swap a battery on your iPad, and they won't dare provide SD expansion card slots to add memory.
Google android has the disadvantage that the apps are essentially for one kind of CPU -- you don't get the flexibility to run the same code on both desktop OS and on tablet/smart phone; Windows 8 provides this added flexibility.
Re:It would be worthless for work (Score:4, Insightful)
I can easily use a mouse and keyboard at the same time. Having to reach up to do an operation would seriously piss me off and cut my productivity in half.
Then how about only using touch where it makes sense and saves you time, and stick to keyboard and mouse where it makes sense and saves time. My favorite example of this is in photoshop. When you select a layer, you get a bounding box with anchors at each corner. With mouse you can then rotate, scale, or translate the layer... but only one at a time, and in the scaling case only along one axis at a time. This makes the process of properly placing a layer iterative. That is, move it, scale it, rotate it, scale it again, rotate it, until you've got it just right.
With multitouch, this could be done in a single fluid gesture: move your fingers to translate, pinch your fingers to scale, spin your fingers to rotate, and it's a completely natural intuitive gesture. I yearn for a day when this is possible in Photoshop, and I will gladly move my hands from keyboard and mouse to the screen in this scenario because it is much more efficient with touch than with the mouse.
Re:It's very possible (Score:5, Insightful)
https://www.google.com.au/search?tbs=li:1&q=original+Transformer+sold+(and+still+sells+AFAIK)+at+a+rate+of+about+400%2C000+units+a+month#hl=en&tbo=d&tbs=li:1&sclient=psy-ab&q=Asus+Transformer++400%2C000+units+a+month&oq=Asus+Transformer++400%2C000+units+a+month&gs_l=serp.3...701.701.1.1225.1.1.0.0.0.0.336.336.3-1.1.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.5XF4MVZNGKA&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&fp=5173c837edf7494c&bpcl=39314241&biw=1920&bih=1059 [google.com.au]
N.B. Yes, posting a Google search as evidence IS an expression of contempt. If you're too lazy to check facts, don't challenge people who post them.
Re:It's very possible (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It's very possible (Score:5, Insightful)
If you're too lazy to check facts, don't challenge people who post them.
I disagree. Any troll can post false "fact" after false "fact" fast enough to overwhelm anyone else's ability to check and disprove them. Therefore the responsibility should be on the person presenting the fact to provide a valid citation (if not up front, then at least when asked for it).
Re:Really? (Score:5, Insightful)
The Plato "learning system" that was around at Illinois and other schools in the 70's/80's was touch screen with keyboard, and if you had to do more than an hour with it, it was tiring. Fine for one class' lab, but awful if you had to spend an entire night on it. Of course today's touch screens and UI designs are probably better, but there are thousands of people who got to experience gorilla arm in a production environment, many of whom went on to careers in silicon valley, and oddly the industry didn't jump on touch technology when that generation took over.
Re:It's very possible (Score:2, Insightful)
You just posted the whole search including the extra info Google uses to track your search.
Re:i hate dirty fingerprints on my screen (Score:4, Insightful)
^THIS^
Back in the CRT days, "pokers" were annoying. There's no need to physically touch the screen to point at something on it. Just get close. It was worse with early LCDs because they were very fragile. Pokey-McGee could destroy a $500 14" monitor with a single jab. "Do you see the colors bloom when you do that? That's not a good thing!"
At least we have Gorilla Glass and similar compounds to protect the panels these days but I still wouldn't want to work on a schmootzy screen or have people smear my laptop screen with their "french fry" fingers flicking thru a document instead of using the PigUp/Down keys. And I certainly wouldn't want to have to clean my 27" monitors every day because of the practice.
I like my tablet but I have to keep a microfiber cloth handy to wipe the prints off it. Same with the phone. It's tolerable because these are "sometimes" devices that I don't stare at for hours a day.
Re:Typical Crack-Smoking Article (Score:4, Insightful)
I for one cannot imagine using a touch-the-screen solution on the desktop or laptop.
But TFA is correct. I've spent a day messing around with a tablet running Windows 8, touching away, and then when I go back to a regular PC with a monitor -- also running Windows 8, FWIW -- I automatically start reaching for the monitor for the first couple of moments. And this is for the Desktop UI, too. Once you get used to certain habits on one device, you want to do the same thing on other devices, especially when they are running the exact same OS and everything looks virtually identical to you. You know the touch points are supposed to be there, so you reach for them.
Whether this is a "good" thing or not is open to debate.
Re:It's very possible (Score:2, Insightful)
Have you been reading the windows 8 threads on /. for the last year? Lots of people thought they would be a terrible idea. I'm very glad that now that Windows 8 has the right hardware people are starting to see what a step forward it is.
Re:It's very possible (Score:5, Insightful)
You must not have young kids. I don't know what bizarre substances they form on their fingers, I do not WANT to know, all I know is that touchscreens preserve and backlight it for me.
Re:Before the eight-hate arrives, I just want to s (Score:4, Insightful)
We transitioned to cars because there was a great many advantages to do so - speed, load carrying capacity, etc, etc.
What are the advantages of using a touchscreen over a keyboard/mouse in everyday situations?
Mobile? Well sure, if you're wandering around and you want to quickly tap something out or go through a few apps, there's a good advantage to a touch screen.
But at the office? I don't know. The time taken to take your hands off the keys, reach out and tap something... is that quicker than getting the mouse and clicking? I don't really know. I'd suspect that that with my setup (2 x 24" monitors) it's going to be slower. And I'd bet that if I was forced to use a touchscreen in an office situation where I still had a keyboard, I'd be learning a lot more keyboard shortcuts quick-smart.
Re:It's very possible (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, Cheetos & mechanical keyboards should be a worse combination, hygenically speaking and reliability speaking, given how many crevices there are in a keyboard. So if Cheetos is supposed to be a problem with touch screen, then why doesn't anyone backtrack that thinking to the keyboards?
Re:It's very possible (Score:2, Insightful)
I don't know what kind of a laptop do you have in mind, but on what I consider a laptop a touchscreen would be an ergonomic nightmare. Are you sitting comfortably in an ergonomically sound position? Hands at the level of your elbows, resting on the keyboard or your desk? Now fucking raise your entire forearm 4-5 inches up, as would be necessary to point at something on the screen without elevating hands above the elbows, and keep it there. Tell me how it feels after you've kept them there for 15 minutes. I hope it clears any illusions.
It's not about Apple, Microsoft, or anyone else. It's about biomechanics and ergonomics of the situation. It's about the same reasons lightpens didn't pan out. It truly sucks to have to use them, and the problem wasn't their weight -- I've had extremely lightweigh ones, and they pretty much made you wish to embed the monitor in the desk because your arms would start killing you after an hour of use.
Yes, if you're standing up, touchscreens are a different ballgame. If MS wants to pander to people who work in fast food restaurants, well, good for them. Yes, I'm exaggerating, but the touchscreen market is pretty much limited to standing jobs.
Re:Microsoft's Windows 8 Numbers Meaningless (Score:5, Insightful)
Fact: Microsoft is selling exponentially more licenses with Windows 8 than it did with Windows 7.
Huh? Microsoft themselves has already admitted that Windows 8 sales are at nearly the EXACT same pace as Windows 7 sales [computerworld.com].
Okay... How about actual web usage: http://www.zdnet.com/statcounter-windows-8-license-sales-not-yet-translating-into-usage-7000008148/ [zdnet.com]
Even though Microsoft sold as many licenses of Windows 8 as they did of Windows 7, Windows 7 saw much higher actual usage after one month on the market compared to Windows 8 after one month on the market. Windows 7 made up 4.93% of internet users 1 month after launch compared to Windows 8's 1.31% 1 month after launch. That paints a pretty bleak picture of actual Windows 8 usage. Even Windows Vista managed to get nearly 2% of web browser share after the first month [w3schools.com].
So lets assume that both statistics are correct. Microsoft sold 40 million licenses of Windows 8, the same as Windows 7 for the same time period AND Windows 8's web usage 1 month after launch is only 27% of Windows 7's web usage 1 month after launch. Let's add in a few more facts, like NewEgg saying that windows 8 sales are slow [extremetech.com] and that sales of Windows devices are down 21% from last year since the launch of Windows 8 [marketwatch.com]. Based on these facts, we can extrapolate a story.
The story I extrapolated is this: Microsoft sold 40 million licenses of Windows 8 in several ways: 1) end users taking advantage of the cheap $40 upgrade option that has never been offered before, 2) the volume license sales of Windows that are now Windows 8 licenses that are almost ALL being downgraded to Windows 7 because Microsoft no longer sells Windows 7 licenses, and 3) a whole TON of licenses to OEMs so they could get the initial supply of Windows 8 devices in to sales channels for launch.
So lets go over these sales paths:
1) The end user upgrades are legitimate sales of Windows 8. However, I would expect these numbers to be much higher than the initial Windows 7 upgrade sales simply because of the huge discount that didn't exist for the Windows 7 launch. The $40 upgrade price is either a 60% or 80% discount depending on whether you would buy the home or professional edition. I would expect to see a small rush of people buying to take advantage of the lower price...even over the normal PC enthusiast sales of people who must have the latest-and-greatest. The $40 upgrade option would also explain why direct to consumer upgrades of Windows 8 are selling at a faster pace than Windows 7 did. When you give a very hefty discount to pretty much everyone, people are going to jump on the deal.
2) volume license sales: Business need Windows licenses and you can only buy Windows 8 now. So even though the business is installing Windows 7 with those Windows 8 licenses, they are still being counted as a "Windows 8 sale". These are licenses Microsoft would've sold whether Windows 8 was released or not. Also, i'd be curious to know whether Microsoft is including any previous Windows 7 licenses with Software Assurance as a "Windows 8 sale" as well.
3) OEM sales: This is where I bet Microsoft sold the bulk of their Windows 8 licenses. OEMs had to buy their initial set of licenses to cover their initial stock of Windows 8 devices being shipped to sales channels. World wide PC sales for 2012 are expected to be around 350 million units...or about 30 million PCs per month. I would also expect the sales numbers t
Re:It's very possible (Score:4, Insightful)
I deal with this on my phone even if I don't touch it. Ear-grease. Yep. I'm a human being alright.
Re:It's very possible (Score:5, Insightful)
Not that I agree it's a real problem in real world use (not form my experience anyway), but to answer your question - because you don't need to look though the gunk on your keyboard to read your screen.
I don't think many are concerned about the the hygiene of touch screens, it's the discomfort one feels when looking at a dirty screen.
Though looking at my colleague's screens that point is somewhat moot....
Re:Microsoft never ceases to amaze me (Score:4, Insightful)
There were plenty. You are confusing the software on the personal computer that is used to put tracks on the mp3 player with the device. What made the iPod look "mature" was a 2nd or 3rd version of iTunes with Gracenote on a Mac putting tracks on the iPod. By then the device was solid state (just like some before the iPod) and USB (just like every other mp3 player before the iPod), so was starting to look as good as it's competitors on it's own merits, but it was really iTunes on a Mac that made it a mass market device.
I'll reserve comment on iTunes for MS Windows, I don't want to use so many four letter words that I'll have none left over for special occassions.
Re:laptop woes (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:It's very possible (Score:1, Insightful)
All my cool, metrosexual, and hot chick classmates have an ipad. None of my cheetos-eating, basement-dwelling, nerd virgin classmates have an iPad.
Thats because they use android. Because they are smart enough to know an android is far less expensive, equal if not greater in terms of hardware for a lot of models and googles open approach allows the owner to actual use the device as if they actually own it.
But really. WHat does better hardware, better pricing, better user ability and overall better product mean when you can walk around with a apple logo on your overpriced item?
Re:It's very possible (Score:2, Insightful)
This is also why they eat Cheetos: It is cheaper than steak. And dwelling in your parents' basement is cheaper than having your own apartment. And being a virgin is cheaper than a girlfriend. All in all, quite cheap individuals. Pirating Android apps is just icing on the cake.
But you seem to lack knowledge about iPads. The number of Android tablets that can be called "better" is minimal at best.