Robot Controlled By Rat Brain 170
kkleiner writes "Kevin Warwick, once a cyborg and still a researcher in cybernetics at the University of Reading, has been working on creating biological neural networks that can control machines. He and his team have taken the brain cells from rats, cultured them, and used them as the guidance control circuit for simple wheeled robots. Electrical impulses from the bot enter the batch of neurons, and responses from the cells are turned into commands for the device. The cells can form new connections, making the system a true learning machine."
I for one would like to take this opportunity... (Score:5, Funny)
to greet our new rat overlords.
Re:I for one would like to take this opportunity.. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Brain: (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Brain: (Score:4, Funny)
(Pinky) Whoof, oh, I'd have to say the odds of that are terribly slim Brain.
(Brain) True.
(Pinky) I mean, really, when have I ever been pondering what you've been pondering?
(Brain) To my knowledge, never.
(Pinky) Exactly. So, what are the chances that this time, I'm pondering what you're pondering?
(Brain) Next to nil.
(Pinky) Well, that's exactly what I'm thinking, too.
(Brain) Therefore, you are pondering what I'm pondering.
(Pinky) Poit, I guess I am!
Re:I for one would like to take this opportunity.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's [wikipedia.org] a rat cyborg who used to be our overlord. As to cyborgs, Warwick was never a cyborg. Implanting a chip that does nothing whatever doesn't make you a cyborg, but a pacemaker does. To be a cyborg you have to have a device implanted in your body that aids in the body's function; a pacemaker, an artificial hip or knee, a cochlear implant, an accomodating IOL, etc. Implanting a chip that does nothing is just stupid.
Your grandma's probably a real cyborg.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm not sure an artificial hip/knee would make you a cyborg -- otherwise, a pegleg would also make you a cyborg.
I think the hip/knee seem too passive to be cybrenetic [wikipedia.org] -- there's no sensors or anything beyond purely "mechanical" things; I think you'd need some more sensors or "
Re: (Score:2)
A peg leg's not implanted; it's strapped on (My late uncle made such prosthetics). And yes, your mom's a cyborg! So am I; the lens in my left eye has been replaced by an artificial lens on struts; a device that cured my extreme myopia, age related presbyopia, and stroid induced cataract.
You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile!
Re: (Score:2)
What about a glass eye? What about a dental appliance that is screwed into your jawbone? Would a steel plate in your head make you a cyborg?
I'm just trying to figure out the specifics of what makes you a cyborg here. Merely having something implanted vs strapped on can't be good enough. Anybody with pins or screws would be a cyborg, and I'm not convinced of that.
Part of me thinks the interface between you and the device ne
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
That's also what he got after 4 years of calling himself a cyborg and giving lectures on cyborg rights for having nothing more than a RFID chip under the skin. The one that actually interfaces with the nerves is also someone else's design.
But the GP criticism IMHO still stands. There are people with more useful implants than Captain Cyborg, and more fitting the cyborg meaning, and some from long before him. The first pacemaker was implanted in 1960, though the first research into that started at the end of
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
New boss same as the old boss?
Re: (Score:2)
The rat bastard!
Rats!! A cylon! (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Christine O'Donnell Was Right! (Score:5, Funny)
Well, not really, but it is as close as she is going to get on any subject.
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/09/odonnell-in-2007-scientists-have-created-mice-with-human-brains.php [talkingpointsmemo.com]
Re: (Score:2)
You missed the key part.
A person who's not scientifically literate doesn't understand the technical details of a science story...gets on television and tries to publicly influence governemtn science policy based off of her own profound ignorance and lack of understanding. It is that last part that really matters.
As usual, XKCD has this covered. http://xkcd.com/154/ [xkcd.com]
Misleading title should say "... Rat Brain Cells" (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Misleading title should say "... Rat Brain Cell (Score:5, Funny)
"Separate beasts" is a bit of a muddled metaphor in this instance.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
True learning machine? (Score:5, Interesting)
If it uses living cells from a rat brain, then it's not really a machine.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
In the sense I mean, yes.
Re: (Score:2)
In the sense I mean, yes.
I think it would be helpful if you explained what you mean by "machine" in that case.
I'm trying to do it for you -- anticipating what I guess is your reasoning -- but I'm having an awful lot of trouble doing so without explicitly saying "unless it's alive". And that has the special problem that you then have to define "alive".
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Care to link to this evidence?
Re:True learning machine? (Score:4, Insightful)
I suppose that would depend on how you define and perceive "machine." After all, is a microprocessor a machine? How about RAM? How about programmable chips that can reconfigure themselves into various networks of transistors? Is it because there is biology instead of nano-construction involved? The reality is that we don't yet have technology that can match what naturally occurring neural networks can do... not yet. But by making use of these small samples, we can begin to interface with them and then start building our own after learning to work with them enough to predict their behaviors.
In time, the rat brain cells will be replaced with something synthetic. Once that is done, will it then be a machine even when the functionality becomes identical?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Technically, even a screw is considered a machine [cmu.edu]. Everything more complex and more functional than a screw should then also be a machine, regardless if it contains biomass. No?
Re: (Score:2)
I think there are people who believe that there is some non-physical aspect to living things that separates them from machines. A "soul" for want of a better word.
Not me. I agree with you, we are (very complex) machines.
Re: (Score:2)
You don't have to believe in a non-physical soul to come to the conclusion that biological organisms are more than just machines.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You are begging the question, "Is it possible for us to build a 'sufficiently complex machine', i.e. a machine as complex as a living organism?"
Given that humans are the only living organisms that can build complex machines, and given that we're nowhere near creating machines that mimic even the lowly cell, much less anything more complex, there is nothing except for theoretical evidence to support the claim. And if you take a brief look into the history of psychology and the biology of the brain, a lot of
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
"Machine: an assemblage of parts that transmit forces, motion and energy in a predetermined manner."
A screw is a part, not an assemblage of parts.
Re: (Score:2)
No... didn’t you take high school physics? A machine doesn’t have to be an assemblage of parts; besides which, some classifications I have seen (though not Wikipedia) consider a screw to be a compound machine (i.e. it is an assemblage of parts): depending on the head and the shape of the screw, it could consist of a wheel and axle (e.g. a bolt head) and/or a wedge (if it’s tapered) in addition to the inclined plane.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine [wikipedia.org]
A machine is a device that uses energy to perform some activity. ... A simple machine is a device that transforms the direction or magnitude of a force without consuming any energy.
Simple machines: Inclined plane, Wheel and axle, Lever, Pulley, Wedge, Screw
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Oh... you were making an issue of the fact that it defined “machine” and then called a screw a simple machine, then pinkushun just called it a “machine”. Yeah, that’s pretty pedantic... I’d say that a simple machine is still a machine by definition, if only a simple one.
Machine: an assemblage of parts that transmit forces, motion and energy in a predetermined manner.
Simple Machine: any of various elementary mechanisms having the elements of which all machines are composed. Included in this category are the lever, wheel and axle, pulley, inclined plane, wedge and the screw.
Re: (Score:2)
I didn't read anything that indicated that it actually learned anything, just a note that the cells are living and can make new connections.
It sounds to me like they measured what "response" came back from the cells for certain input, not that the cells made any logical or deliberate choice to do anything. I call semi-shenanigans.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Are you sure? [northeastern.edu] Does that mean that since it's implanted in my eye, the crystalens isn't a device? 200 years ago when mills were powered by animals it wasn't machinery either?
I fail to see the logic in your statement. How does the use of biology in a machine make it not a machine?
Re: (Score:2)
Do you consider the crystalens to be fully a part of your self in addition to being a device?
If so, I commend you for being quite consistent =) but could you understand how someone else would consider it to be otherwise?
Your mill example is a good one since it is animal-as-part-of-machine and not machine-as-part-of-animal. I don't think anybody would say that the mill was not a machine, but I, for one, would say that although it was powered by animals, the animals were not a part of the machine in the same
Re: (Score:2)
How do you figure? Rat brains are biological machines.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm more interested to know if others think it's less of a living being.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I'm more interested to know if others think it's less of a living being.
"It is still a challenge for scientists and philosophers to define life in unequivocal terms" (thanks Wikipedia)
I think you might be able to describe the test tube full of cells that's "piloting" the robot as alive. It's made of biological cells. Presumably it consumes nutrients.
Ethically, the most troublesome part is harvesting the cells from a rat foetus (which I suspect not many /. readers would object to.) From then on, it's at something like the level of a worm, if that.
Re: (Score:2)
Do worms not suffer? Or perhaps they aren't capable of suffering to the same degree as other life-forms?
Re: (Score:2)
I'm fairly comfortable with claiming that worms don't suffer. I'm not sure what the boundaries of my own personal definition of "suffer" is, but I'm pretty sure an organism must possess a brain in order to experience it.
Sentient cells? (Score:5, Interesting)
What doesn't seem too clear after listening to the videos is why the rat's cells wouldn't want to crash the robot it's controlling, into the wall. Did the scientists program that in (perhaps wall crashes give the cells some kind of negative electrical stimulation), or did the cells have a mind of its own on that front?
The difference is subtle because it means we have either a 'mere' replacement for computer chips, or potentially much more - a sentient clump of cells which want the 'best' for the robot it's controlling.
Re:Sentient cells? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Well, but in real animal beings 'bad signals' (pain, pressure, heat, etc) are that... signals
Re: (Score:2)
(This is still a bit of a simplification, but it's closer to the truth.)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Sentient cells? (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Therein lies the challenge.
In a virtual neural net, when the output is close to what you want, you promote the inputs to the neurons that fired. When the output is not what you want, you demote them.
At a complete guess (I can only see the front page of the scientific papers, and probably wouldn't understand them if I went further anyway), they have some electrical or chemical means to reinforce neural links that have recently fired .
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
They're rat neurons, so you use REALLY TINY bits of cheese, obviously.
Re: (Score:2)
I didn't RTFA, but for small sets of neurons, I presume you'd stimulate neurons on the "output" end with the "correct" output. "Neurons that fire together, wire together", so eventually the neurons should build a network that produces the correct output for that input.
Re: (Score:2)
I guess at this stage, the cells respond to the external stimulus in a very erratic way, and are quite 'unconscious' of the environment, if you will.
Maybe getting the external input into a format that the cells can interpret in an understandable level, and more cells are introduced to provide more 'brain power', then we will see intelligent learning.
Re: (Score:2)
Human brains? (Score:3, Interesting)
Say I have a terminal illness. It some of my brain cells can be kept alive, and given a robot body to motor around in, maybe its worth a go.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
However you would still be dead and some robot with cultured brain cells from your head would be walking around.
Re: (Score:2)
In the case yes. But if it was possible t culture a full brain and in some way recover all memories from the dead brain to the cultured one?
It's a reasonably interesting thought experiment, but not a particularly new one (you don't even have to be particularly highbrow: Total Recall; Blade Runner; The Island).
Since you're speculating about almost completely sci-fi possibilities, why not just cure your terminal illness, or make an exact copy of yourself minus the disease (with some sort of molecular-level copier), or transfer your memories into a frozen clone of yourself, etc. ?
Re:Human brains? (Score:4, Informative)
I think most people are familiar with The Ship of Theseus [wikipedia.org] in some form or another.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I suppose your reasoning is that if it works with cells from a rat's brain, it must have potential to work even better with cells from a human's brain, because humans are cleverer, right?
The thing is, there's not much difference between a rat's neuron and a human neuron, and both are very simple. In essence, they accept signals on their dendrites, and if the signals reach some threshold, they fire a signal from their axon, which typically is connected to the dendrite of another neutron.
I *guess* the advanta
Does not adhere to the Laws of Robotics test... (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
you can't ever control or predict learning machiens. That's the point of building a learing machien.
Mad Scientist (Score:5, Funny)
Now go, my ratbots. Go and wheel your way into the glorious future, heralding humanity's DOOM!
*More Evil Laughter*
Use cute and pleasant brain cells (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Rat brain cells are not going to strike the right chord with people. I would use brain cells from an animal people are familiar with, and trust, like horses, cats, dogs, monkeys, or cattle.
You might want to reconsider some of that. While fancy rats are inquisitive, friendly and sociable, a cat-brained robot would really be the most sociopathic cyborg I can imagine.
And besides, if they were to use cat brain cells, a lot more people would regard that as inhumane compared to using the poor rats!
Re: (Score:2)
While fancy rats are inquisitive, friendly and sociable, a cat-brained robot would really be the most sociopathic cyborg I can imagine.
Where the hell are my mod points?!? I used to have two cats (now down to one) and it doesn't give two shits about you unless it wants something. To quote Robin Williams: 'Is it me or are cats drag queens? With the way they just go (flaunts bottom), “Who loves kitty? Ya love kitty? Are these your shoes? (retches) Who loves kitty? Who loves kitty?”'
Re: (Score:2)
Guy Ben-Ary was doing this five years ago (Score:5, Informative)
Guy Ben-Ary is an artist who did a residency at the SymbioticA Research Lab at the University of Western Australia and then at the Potter Lab at Georgia Tech. During that time he created a system where a culture of rat brain neurons controlled a robotic pen controller to draw "art". Further, the two components (brain and arm) were geographically separated and communicated across the internet.
MEART: The Semi Living Artist
http://web.mit.edu/shkolnik/www/meart/ [mit.edu]
http://www.fishandchips.uwa.edu.au/ [uwa.edu.au]
Re: (Score:2)
I wonder why
Huh? (Score:2)
Kevin Warwick, once a cyborg and still a researcher in cybernetics at the University of Reading
Wait, he used to be a cyborg and then decided a change of career was in order?!
It's Bicentennial Man all over again...
Re:Huh? (Score:4, Informative)
Wait, he used to be a cyborg and then decided a change of career was in order?!
Kevin Warwick is a fanatical self-publicist. He implanted a chip in his arm, which was able to read nervous signals and forward them to a computer, whereby he could operate robot arms etc. By virtue of that, he proclaimed himself a cyborg. You can buy his book about it, "I, Cyborg" if you really want to.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Over at TheRegister, he's known as Captain Cyborg. They appear to have stopping putting up articles about him. I sorely miss reading about the insane antics of the Captain.
But is it newer and differenter than the (Score:4, Informative)
Comment removed (Score:3, Funny)
Randomly wandering robot = Science? (Score:2, Interesting)
Excellent! (Score:4, Funny)
Now we have a viable alternative for politicians.
(And they can make their own robo-calls too! :-)
This has been done the other way around too... (Score:2)
When the scientist wants the rat to turn one way or the other, he/she sends a signal that makes the rat feel like one of its whiskers has been twitched, and the rat turns on command.
Recycling (Score:2)
Old news (Score:2)
Really OLD news btw... (Score:2)
Big Deal (Score:3, Funny)
My manager has been controlled by a rat brain for years...
The possibilities are endless (Score:2)
"Robot Controlled By A Rat Brain"
Glenn Beck
Rush Limbaugh
Dubbyah
Katie Couric
Steve Balmer
RIAA
Block Diagrams (Score:4, Informative)
So far as I know, the only thing a neuron, or batch of neurons, can do is process an electrical signal from one end to another. If that's the case I fail to see how these neurons are controlling anything. I don't see how they could be used to calculate or predict any state at all. If all they are doing is transferring the analog signal from a batch of sensors, and then delivering those signals to a microcontroller or something, then they are not controlling the system at all, they are simply acting as biological wires. If they are rerouting sensory signals to various parts of the circuit based on level of input, that would be something worth noting, but I am not sure how a batch of neurons could do that. Furthermore, Rodney Brookes was able to do pretty much the same thing with transistor sets and analog sensors years ago when he developed his robotic bug brain...so it's not like such a control scheme hasn't been cooked up before. It would be great to see the details of the work to know what Warwick is actually up to this time, but I have a sneaking suspicion that his neural controller is nothing more than a classic analog or digital controller that uses a batch of neurons to transfer signals in the exact same manner that wires or a transistor bank could do. I want details.
Re: (Score:2)
you think you are creeped out? we have five pet rats in the house, and most of the time their cage is open too! (they cant get out anyway, table is to high)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
My rat leaped down from just about anywhere when I had a pet - that wouldn't have stopped her.
I miss my rat now...
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
well, the table their cage is on is only 50 cm high, so it shouldnt really pose any problem, but from what i've seen, our rats just dont like jumping at all, even horizontal spans are mostly left alone.
They do like climbing and just generally running around though, but even a 20cm drop will have them stop in their tracks..
Re: (Score:2)
What could possibly go wrong.....?
Re:Robot Controlled by Rat Brain (Score:4, Interesting)
Mainly the neuron control helps the robot to avoid walls.
So there must be messaging back into the rat. So the robot is to some extent controlling the rat brain.
Re: (Score:2)
So there must be messaging back into the rat. So the robot is to some extent controlling the rat brain.
I'm pretty sure the rat is out of the picture. Probably dead (it doesn't seem worth the hassle to harvest braincells from a rat in a non-lethal manner).
From what I can tell, all that's going on is that they've constructed a neural network out of real neurons.
Re:Robot Controlled by Rat Brain (Score:5, Informative)
I followed some links. http://journals.pepublishing.com/content/b31654739h7nk726/ [pepublishing.com]
The cells are harvested from a rat foetus. They're grown in a special vessel, where they're in contact with an array of electrodes. They spontaneously arrange themselves into a neural network. The difficult part is training that network to do anything useful.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The cells are harvested from a rat foetus. They're grown in a special vessel, where they're in contact with an array of electrodes. They spontaneously arrange themselves into a neural network. The difficult part is training that network to do anything useful.
Which is exactly why it is NOT wired to a rat brain. These are cultured cells, seperated and grown in culture. So it's rat NEURONS but not a rat's brain. Calling it a rat brain would be like calling a heap of randomly wired intel-made-transistors a core2duo.
Re:Robot Controlled by Rat Brain (Score:4, Funny)
Calling it a rat brain would be like calling a heap of randomly wired intel-made-transistors a core2duo.
Sssssh....that's how I make money on eBay!
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The rat is fully decoupled from this ... they scraped cells out of the rats brain, and hooked them up to electronics.
There is absolutely no feedback into the rat. It's not even a rat brain anymore. The rat may well be defunct.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)