Synthetic Stone DVD Claimed To Last 1,000 Years 416
Lucas123 writes "A start-up launched a new DVD archive product this week: a disc that it says will hold its data for 1,000 years. The company, Cranberry, says its DiamonDisc product, which can be used in any standard DVD player, is not subject to deterioration from heat, UV rays or material rot due to humidity or other elements because it has no dyes, adhesives or reflective materials like standard DVD discs, and its discs are made from a vastly more durable synthetic stone. Data is laid down on the platter much in the same way as a standard DVD disc, but with DiamonDisc the burner etches much deeper pits. Cranberry said it is also working on producing a Blu-ray version of its 1,000-year disc."
What the bets the first release will be... (Score:5, Funny)
It's the 2 (Synthetic) Stone DVD Version...
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Re:What the bets the first release will be... (Score:5, Funny)
Hopefully in 1000 years it will be appropriately categorized as "fiction."
It's not as if that's written in stone!
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Lol, yeah well most likely in a 1,000 years you'll be saying, "Crap! It was real - all of it was in that Book! Now what do I do?"
If I'm alive in 1000 years, I'll be happy to have lived so long (assuming it wasn't 900 years bedridden), and if I find I'm wrong (I'm currently an atheist), I'll gladly change my ways (God says you only need to repent before death to be accepted in to the kingdom of Heaven).
On the other hand, if I'm dead before I realize I was wrong, then either:
1) I'm in heaven. I'd like to think this it what would happen. I live a good life (I'm kind, honest, generous, fair, etc), and I'd like to think God is more intere
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What if you're not good enough for heaven and not bad enough for hell?
Re:What the bets the first release will be... (Score:5, Funny)
Then you have to spend eternity in North Dakota.
Nonono... Blackadder explained it all (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Nonono... Blackadder explained it all (Score:5, Insightful)
Anyone who hasn't seen Blackadder, I recommend you find a way to do so.
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According to the Christian beliefs I was taught growing up, there is not in between - it's truly a black and white issue. That said, it's also not really linked to "good" or "bad" when it comes to going to either - it's based in salvation. In the eyes of my congregation (a Southern Baptist church - views can differ between groups though) a serial killer that repents of his sins and "accepts Jesus as his savior" right before he is executed will go to heaven, whilst an atheist who devotes their life to char
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The concept of hell is fascinating because its origins are not really biblical at all. There are literally only a handful of passages in the entire Bible on which we pin this whole concept of eternal damnation, and their interpretation is questionable at best.
Hell comes from the blending of Roman and Greek understandings of the afterlife into Christianity theology/mythology i.e. post-Constantine. It makes sense: culture shouldn't change just because the state suddenly changes religion. The problem is that a
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Eternity in Heaven:
"I mean, d'you know what eternity is? There's this big mountain, see, a mile high, at the end of the universe, and once every thousand years there's this little bird-"
"What little bird?" said Aziraphale suspiciously.
"This little bird I'm talking about. And every thousand years-"
"The same bird every thousand years?"
Crowley hesitated. "Yeah," he said.
"Bloody ancient bird, then."
"Okay. And every thousand years this bird flies-"
"-limps-"
"flies all the way to this mountain and sharpens its bea
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The concept that you're referring to is a recent addition too, for that matter.
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Do not presume upon the mercy of God.
I certainly wouldn't (if he existed) - by all accounts he's clearly a psycopath.
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Hell is not a punishment but the state that people who refuse the ultimate good.
And the great majority of people who are atheist do not declare themselves in any way opposed to or refusing of the ultimate good.
They are looking at the bible and those who believe it and resolving that this religion and the book its founded on does not represent in any way, an ultimate good.
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or think courtroom justice: you were caught breaking a law, God is the judge... who is your advocate? If you accept Jesus as your advocate, he stands before the judge and says "he's guilty, but I volunteer to pay the penalty in his stead." The judge then metes out justice, but Jesus stands in your place, taking the punishment of death, while you remain free
This is scapegoating, not justice. If a human judge allowed the punishment of an innocent "in the stead" of a guilty party, we would not call him fair, just or wise. But your cosmic super-judge (who by any logic should be held to higher standards of ethical practice) can do exactly that?
The underlying message here is that your god is unable to forgive even the slightest transgression, has to demand mortal punishment, and yet isn't too picky about who exactly gets punished. Thinking a little further, surely
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Re:What the bets the first release will be... (Score:4, Funny)
And commandment 666 says that Satan can read and write everything, but isn't allowed execute privileges.
1,000 years? (Score:5, Interesting)
You know, when CDs and DVDs came out, they claimed they would last 50 years. I have yet to find one that lasts longer than 5. So I'd say, 1,000 years translates to about a hundred years, tops. Also, it may not be vulnerable to humidity in a controlled environment, but in the outdoors, a few seasons of freezing/melting and it'll be shot. Water beats rock every time.
Re:1,000 years? (Score:5, Informative)
I Hate ROCK Music (Score:5, Funny)
What are they recording?
The Rolling Stones?
The Stone Roses?
The Stone Temple Pilots?
Rainy Day Women # 12 & 35?
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Live at the Stone Pony Series
(all the New Jerseans are laughing)
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What most people fail to notice is that the thickness of those old CDs did allow one to skip them on the road and be able to put them back into the player and read correctly. They are thicker than today's CDs.
[citation needed]
Philips specify the thickness of a CD - if it doesn't match the spec then it isn't a CD and can't carry the CD logo.
In any case, the robustness of the polycarbonate is rarely the problem - the easiest way to damage a CD is by scratching the aluminium layer, since it is only protected by a thin lacquer. By contrast, DVDs have a much better design, sandwiching the aluminium between two polycarbonate discs.
Re:1,000 years? (Score:5, Informative)
Burned or stamped?
My stepfather has an extensive collection of CDs he bought in the mid-to-late 80s that play as well today as they did back when he bought them. I ripped a Cars album without need for any cdparanoia correction. The resulting file played fine.
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Yikes! I have collection of CDs that I bought in the mid to late 80s. Thanks for making me feel old!
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*Currently playing an 8 year old burned CD with no issues*
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*Currently playing an 8 year old burned CD with no issues*
First, there are people who have experienced no problems, and there are people who have. Saying that you belong to one group or another contributes nothing useful.
Second, a music file like an mp3 with a few flipped or unreadable bits may be playable, and the music may sound fine. But that certainly doesn't mean the file isn't corrupted, or that the CD hasn't degraded or won't start degrading in the future.
Third, I'll wager that a CD bought 8 years
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Fourth: I presented a fact that debunks this statement: "I have yet to find one that lasts longer than 5"
I would say that comment contributes something useful.
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Cheap ones? I bought nothing but brand name, expensive CDR/RW years ago and I find that most
of them, particularly the RWs are hosed. I was paying as much as $5/each in 1997-2000.
Re:1,000 years? (Score:5, Funny)
Water beats rock every time.
No, paper beats rock. There's no water in the game.
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you need to upgrade to rps7 or greater.
http://www.umop.com/rps.htm [umop.com]
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Actually, I think water beats them all, given enough time.
The next time somebody challenges me to rock, paper, scissors, screw Spock and lizard. I'm going with water!
Re:1,000 years? (Score:4, Funny)
No, paper beats rock. There's no water in the game.
Spock [youtube.com] also beats rock.
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Water beats rock every time.
So you're saying we should be making our CDs out of water?
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Re:1,000 years? (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, it may not be vulnerable to humidity in a controlled environment, but in the outdoors, a few seasons of freezing/melting and it'll be shot. Water beats rock every time.
I really don't care if my archival storage can stand being left outside for several years, because I don't intend to do that. I'd be quite happy if it were at least as durable as a book, which if well made and with reasonable care can last at least a couple hundred years, possibly over 1000 under ideal conditions. So what if it can get ruined if it's left in the rain? If I care enough about the data, I just make a few copies and put them in different places and hopefully if I've chosen well at least one will survive. Right now it's not at all clear that typical CD's and DVD's are even as durable as cheap pulp paperbacks.
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Don't worry, we've been told by some futurists and scientists that people born today will be able to defeat ageing, so it's likely that in 1,000 years someone, somewhere, will be able to sue them for false advertising when their Britney Spears album stops playing correctly.
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Then let's make the DVDs out of water! Oh wait...
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Then let's make the DVDs out of water! Oh wait...
I was going to suggest dihydrogen monoxide, but that stuff is probably too toxic [dhmo.org] for consumer use.
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Generally true (esp.TDK)
The oldest TDK I have were bought in late 2007 - they all work well (amazingly enough, just going through them, copying to my new Myth box so the wife can view them :)
all of my Memorex "white label" discs work perfectly, some 10-12 years later.
Holy shit - so *you're* the guy who got the only good box of Memorex
I've never seen a Memorex disc last longer than a couple of months - some are unreadable *minutes* after burning.
Sony are a bit better, but not much (typically 2 years.)
I've had good luck with Phillips, but the best I've used are Maxell.. haven't had one fail yet.
Re:1,000 years? (Score:5, Funny)
I find it all depends on which part of the floor I leave the CD. Near the middle are worst, but surprisingly the ones next to the wall are almost as bad. The ones close the wall, but less near the center seem to survive the best.
In summary,
1) left near doorway = rating 1 star
2) left center of room = rating 1 star
3) left around center or room = rating 3 stars
4) perimeter of room = rating 4 stars
5) left at wall of room = rating 2 stars
6) other (case, desk, special CD container) = rating 2-4 stars
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from Muad'Dib?
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From Pokemon.
First Prior Art (Score:3, Interesting)
Wonder if they applied for a patent before April 22, 2004 ?
http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Ever-Disk [halfbakery.com]
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Sorry, prior rock art [wikimedia.org].
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The government doesn't issue patents for half-baked ideas; it issues them for actual inventions (IIRC it even used to require a physical prototype be sent for examination). www.halfbakery.com is not prior art.
Presumably... (Score:5, Insightful)
... they also make a DVD player that lasts 1000 years?
Re:Presumably... (Score:5, Funny)
... they also make a DVD player that lasts 1000 years?
At $4995 for the burner it better last 1K years too.
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Tightwad. You can afford to buy a new burner once a century.
Re:Presumably... (Score:5, Interesting)
Presumably all DVD readers made for the next 1000 years will be backward compatible. Have you tried to read an 8-inch floppy disk lately? And they're only three decades old!
When the equipment for reading these starts to become museum pieces people will migrate the data to whatever the state of the art is at the time. Then these stone DVD's will last a long time in the landfill.
It does raise some fun things to speculate about though.
There are some ancient writings which no one knows how to read anymore. Will future archaeologists wonder what the microscopic pits in our coasters with holes in them are all about?
Will they suffer from data overload?
What will future archaeologists, with PhD's, think when they read what you, personally, wrote in a forum? Now that's scary.
Re:Presumably... (Score:5, Interesting)
The nice thing about he optical disc form factor is that it decouples the encoding and retrieval technology from the moving parts involves in loading, unloading, and spinning the disc. It's very easy to support additional optical media formats by simply including another kind of laser in the read head.
On the other hand, an eight-inch floppy needs a custom loading mechanism that isn't cost-effective to build anymore, so of course we don't have anything that's backward compatible.
As long as we have optical media at all (and I don't see the idea fading any time soon), the readers will be backwards-compatible all the way back to Red Book audio. I would be amazed if we couldn't read CDs in 100 years, and only moderately surprised if we couldn't read them in 1,000.
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Flash media maybe? I wonder if they can some up with an archival format for that.
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Omnipresent wireless internet with cloud storage might kill off portable storage (except for special uses) in the next 20 years. Maybe longer, given that consumers would want to hang onto their old media. I wouldn't make any bets on the next 100.
But that's a good point about optical disks lasting longer than mechanical systems. Even if becomes a specialized technology, the few remaining readers could read the disks.
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Eh, I fully expect corps to screw the pooch and constantly mess with consumer's or their data. Which means that portable storage will still be alive and kicking because the cloud simply isn't reliable.
(Now, if you're talking movies / TV... I fully expect that
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The read/write head moves too - otherwise you wouldn't be able to read anything but the small portion of the disk directly above the read/write head. The
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The surface details on DVDs just aren't all that small, since they have to be easily accessible to ~$50 worth of cheap, mass-market optics, even after some kid gets greasy fingerprints all over them. Unless the future belongs to degenerate savages and murderous rat-men, rigging up a spindle, an optical microscope,
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DVD is a consumer electronics media, 8" was a computer media. You can still read Vinyls without having to look to hard... the first commercial one was released in1946. that's 63 years, and counting.
Re:Presumably... (Score:5, Interesting)
That's an interesting thought experiment. Let's say civilization fell and rose again, and that future archaeologists came across some of our optical discs. They wouldn't need much beyond 19th-century technology and mathematics to decipher them.
Once cleaned, 1,000-year-old discs would still shimmer the way they do today. Under a microscope (well-developed by the 19th century), pits and lands would be visible. A pit [freepatentsonline.com] is approximately the same size as a bacterial cell [wikipedia.org], after all. The pits and lands would form a recognizable pattern. That pattern looks nothing like binary, being a clocked encoding [wikipedia.org] of it. But it's obvious that a CD would spin, so eventually someone clever will realize that information is encoded at clock boundaries.
That having been figured out, these future archaeologists will see repeating patterns of eight units. Presuming that our language came down intact (much like Latin has to us), 19th century cryptanalytical [wikipedia.org] techniques could determine the correspondence of the mysterious 8-pit repeating units to letters. (After all, what is ASCII except a simple substitution cipher?)
ECC information would be gibberish, but it could be ignored. (And once even one Wikipedia backup were deciphered, the ECC information would be understood.)
Of course, there's a huge amount of information on each disc. It'd take a long time to go over even part of one by hand, but it could be done. After all, even in the 17th century, huge logarithm table [wikipedia.org] books were produced.
Once technology advanced a bit, it'd be possible to build an electromechanical system to read and print the contents of CDs. Even Babbage had a workable printer design [bbc.co.uk], and printing telegraph machines emerged by 1910. The hardest part for our future archaeologists would be reading the discs at high speed, for which (I think) they'd need a laser. But maybe the problem would stimulate them, and they'd build lasers before we got around to discovering the things.
Of course, this is just idle speculation, but it's fun!
Re:Presumably... (Score:5, Insightful)
By the way: if you think this is an interesting thought experiment, you'll love A Canticle for Leibowitz [barnesandnoble.com] by Walter Miller.
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Deciphering the MPEG-2 stream might turn out to be the hard part. But if they're human and have some clue it's porn, the grad students will get it done sooner or later.
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CDs and DVDs are a lot weirder than that. Bytes aren't stored verbatim: they're swizzled around and mixed up to improve error performance (that way a scratch kills many distant bytes that can be corrected, instead of a bunch of nearby ones that can't) and they are also converted to a self-clocking encoding (EFM) before writing to disc.
However, an explanation of this isn't that hard to write and fit into a small-ish book (you don't need all the details and specs, just a guide of just how the data made it ont
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CDs aren't encoded in a straightforward manner. Data is stored as a composition of Reed-Solomon codes and 10-8 codes, and the RS encoded bits are interleaved. Without detailed knowledge of the encoding, it might as well be encrypted. You're expecting to see plain data interleaved with parit. You'll see nothing of the sort.
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Will we have the ability to make DVD players that last 1000 years? Factories retool often, so components which are in easy supply for DVDs right now may not be available in 20-50 years, similar to finding wax cylinder needles or heads for reel to reel tapes.
Also, will we have the ability to decode the pits on a DVD? If someone doesn't know the exact error correction, parsing of Gray codes, and other stuff, the DVD will be completely unreadable.
Trick is... make a DVD player model that can be made as techno
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Is that really interesting outside of the post-apocalyptic scenarios? I'm thinking the point here is to have something you can throw in a vault and actually pick up in a few centuries and use. Unlike pretty much all things magnetic or solid state based, this is more a competitior to digital microfilm or something. For data that's constantly changing this it's easier to just migrate it to new HDDs, but there's a helluva cost to that over a 1000 year perspective. Perhaps the rapid improvements in technology m
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Maybe some will be around in 100. To turn marketing speak into 4D space-time, divide claims by 100. My 100-year Kodaks lasted 10, so maybe these will be around in 100. By which time, all of our collective information ought to fit on one USB-key-sized widget. (I'm kidding, but Moore may not be).
Fun with ceramics (Score:3, Funny)
Coasters have come full circle now.
I remember my mom's ceramic coasters (bone china she called it, which as a 5 year old, creeped me out).
They were pretty durable, and lasted my mom all here adult life. The writing on the bottom was still readable after all those years.
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Sounds like there pretty tough.
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Ahhh, run away, the typo police are here.
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FTFY
Finally, a convenient alternative to pyramids... (Score:5, Funny)
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With all the research that has been done for barcodes, and the resulting wealth of fairly high density, surprisingly robust, and monochrome printable data encoding systems, plus modern CNC gear and a dash of robotics, you should be able to produce a device that would swiftly, automatically, and (comparatively) e
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As it stands, you might want to get a solid five-year warranty on existing recordable DVDs, because the odds are you'll be disappointed as little as two years down the road. I have 5.25" floppy disks from the 8-bit Apple II era that have a higher data retention rate than a lot of DVD-R discs.
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1000 years? (Score:3, Funny)
Expensive (Score:2, Interesting)
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We already have stop-gap semi-permanent storage - you simply copy that multi gigabyte archive onto each new computer as you upgrade. The huge pain in the ass is not keeping files longterm, it's the effort of scanning all those photos in the first place.
Pits? (Score:2)
Recordable DVDs don't use pits, do they?
This new archival format from Cranberry... (Score:4, Funny)
... seems to have been designed to linger.
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Hate these claims: These guys can't lose (Score:2)
What are the odds the company's around to sue if they're wrong in 100 years let alone 1000? I can tell you the odds of the guys who made the claim being around are zero. If you're going to put your faith in this nonsense I have a bridge to sell you.
Stone DVDs? (Score:4, Funny)
They'll come in several varieties:
Curious... (Score:5, Insightful)
I have to wonder, did some journalist fail at accuracy, or are these things actually pretty painfully unexciting in terms of temperature resistance?
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> For a "synthetic stone" product that is supposed to be super durable, that is
> chickenshit.
That's because they are actually plastic.
Re:Curious... (Score:5, Informative)
http://cranberry.com/faqs.php [cranberry.com]
How is the Cranberry Disc(TM) different from regular DVDs? ... Instead [of organic dyes], the Cranberry Disc's data layer is composed of rocklike materials known to last for centuries. The Cranberry Writer(TM) etches the Cranberry Disc's rocklike layer creating a permanent physical data record that is immune to data rot.
What temperature can the Cranberry Disc withstand?
The Cranberry Discs can withstand temperatures of 176F indefinitely with no effect to the data or the readability of the data in a standard DVD drive.
Can the Cranberry Disc withstand UV rays and prolonged exposure to the sun?
Cranberry Discs can withstand the full spectrum of the sun, including UV rays, indefinitely with no effect to the data or the readability of the data in a standard DVD drive.
The data layer is their synthetic material.
Presumably, they still sandwich it between plastics that are vulnerable to heat.
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Where the hell are you parking your car? Mt. Vesuvius?
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When the outside temperature hits 115 degrees with full on sun, the inside can hit 150+ within 10 minutes or so. Make it nice and black inside, and surfaces will probably be hitting 160. Soooo.... yeah. Don't leave stuff inside the car in Arizona or Death Valley.
1000 years later..... (Score:2)
Sounds like "Conan The Librarian" when after the Mayan apocalypse of 2012, 1000 years later when the vestiges of humanity finally rediscover metalworking, Conan goes on a mission to find the mythical Stone DVD which a shamanic priest who has access to a pre-apocalypse technology, inserts it into the player only to find porn.
Greatest slogan EVER! (Score:2)
"DiamonDisc archive solutions... it's the pits!"
Sometimes this stuff just writes itself... where do I send my resume?
they can sell it in Germany as (Score:4, Funny)
If you're actually interested in buying these... (Score:5, Insightful)
Lesson of Alexandria... (Score:2)
"...but the media is unharmed by heat as high as 176 degrees Fahrenheit, ultraviolet rays or normal material deterioration..."
In short, it still cannot survive a simple house fire or the complete leveling of a major city by fire, historically the single greatest threat to information storage.
I am curious what it does in a microwave oven though.
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This isn't for your regular disks (its likely more expensive than most regular disks), its for stuff that needs to be archived for a LONG time, especially stuff being stored in climate controlled location.
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at our current high tech stuff, there can't be that many reason to worry about 1,000 year retention.
Personally I'll be hoping we make it past next Tuesday..
Re:Interesting pricing scheme (Score:4, Interesting)
I read that as being $5000 for the burner and the discs.
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The Library of Congress cares, which is who spurred the research into this media. And you should, too, if you want any portion of our culture preserved for future generations.
The widespread contempt for creating anything of lasting value I see almost everywhere today speaks volumes about both this generation's shortsightedness and its selfishness.