Dell Considering ARM-Based Smartbooks 298
wonkavader sends us this quote from an article in PCWorld:
"In an effort to expand its Linux offerings, Dell is researching new netbook-type devices and will soon offer netbook Linux OS upgrades, a company official said on Wednesday. The company is researching the possibility of offering new Linux-based mobile devices called smartbooks, said Todd Finch, senior product marketing manager for Linux clients, at the OpenSourceWorld conference in San Francisco. The company will also upgrade its Ubuntu Linux OS for netbooks to the latest version in the next few weeks ... Smartbooks with Arm chips have inherent advantages over x86 chips like Atom, such as lower power consumption and longer battery life, according to Finch. The chips are also becoming more powerful, as indicated by the growing number of applications on smartphones, he said. 'I think it's natural and reasonable for us to begin looking at them as they begin scaling their processors up.'"
Uh-huh. (Score:4, Interesting)
And what reason do we have to believe this isn't a just negotiating tactic against Microsoft?
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Uh-huh. (Score:5, Interesting)
from January [engadget.com]
from July [ubergizmo.com]
If Dell is willing to ship what is practically the same device, then this competition can be nothing but good for everyone who wants one.
Re:Uh-huh. (Score:5, Informative)
I just bought an Acer Aspire One AO751h.
It has 6-8h (wlan/no wlan, depending on brightness). it's got an Atom z520 and the GMA500 graphics chip (very low power) which has PowerVR which can accelerate 1080p videos. There's some driver issues ATM (jumping through hoops with special settings in KMPlayer) but h264, AVC1 play great. VC.1 plays as well, but I have use DXVA checker to get it to play without dropping frames-- showing that the capability is in the hardware, just needs some driver work.
It weighs 3lbs, has a 11.6" screen (1366x768) and a full-sized keyboard. It's the perfect size for a netbook; the 10.1" screens don't have enough vertical viewing resolution and you end up scrolling up/down all the time in Excel spreadsheets and Firefox/Chrome, especially if you roll with the taskbar on the bottom like most people. 768vert is 28% more viewing area vertically compared with the 10.1" models.
With Win7 on it and 2GB RAM, it flies; I love it.
There's really no need to wait.
Re:Uh-huh. (Score:4, Insightful)
Great, let me know when I can buy a Apple laptop with a 7 hr battery for $200.
Re:Uh-huh. (Score:5, Insightful)
"Just"? Negotiating tactic is most certainly at least the consolation prize, but they seem to be doing well with their Ubuntu systems.
It seems to me that this is more a case of not keeping all of one's eggs in the MS-x86 basket. Using Linux now gives them a head start in developing a polished interface over their competitors and experience in migrating platforms.
Using ARM now gives them time to work the kinks out of the hardware integration so their ARM laptops can be more stable than the competition's when everyone else starts jumping on the bandwagon.
Re:Uh-huh. (Score:4, Insightful)
IIRC, on those laptops with "Latitude ON", when running on the ARM subsection, that laptops have runtimes counted in days, not single digit hours. And they can play video, do web access, email etc so Dell is in a position to lead or help lead in this sector. Their work with Ubuntu on x86 is another major plus for them and with ARM Inc working with Ubuntu on the ARM platform, that's a strong partnership( Dell, Canonical, ARM ).
This is an important one to follow and it would be great to see something from Dell this year.
LoB
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Because it will sell, and the margins could be high. I imagine something like this would be popular in "developing markets" as well.
Re:Uh-huh. (Score:5, Interesting)
Microsoft is planning to build "Microsoft PC" products that are Microsoft Software+Hardware.
You think Dell is just going to see back and watch that happen and not have a plan B?
Re:Uh-huh. (Score:5, Insightful)
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This is not speculation. Maybe you've heard of the Zune HD? The Zune HD is using a new Nvidia Tegra [arstechnica.com] chip and is designed to be a competitor for iPod touch and iPhone. One of the things Microsoft is advertising is "the full internet
Re:Uh-huh. (Score:5, Funny)
> Microsoft is planning to build "Microsoft PC" products that are Microsoft
> Software+Hardware.
We can only hope they are that stupid.
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ehh? Microsoft has an OS that is suited for such devices. Either windows embedded CE or Windows Embedded nav ready.
Or even the CE derivative Windows mobile.
See http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windowsembedded/dd630116.aspx [microsoft.com]
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You want to explain to the customer why Microsoft Windows doesn't want to run any Windows applications? ;-)
Re:Uh-huh. (Score:5, Funny)
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Ubuntu, which Dell already ships for x86 also has an ARM-port for their upcoming release
Re:Uh-huh. (Score:4, Funny)
Such a witty put-down...you really showed us! I feel so baaaaad...
This just in... (Score:3, Interesting)
In all seriousness though, I once had someone tell me as I was looking into programming in assembly that I should learn an ARM-Based syntax. It still hasn't paid off completely yet, but this is a step in the right direction.
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Lower power consumption leads to longer battery life.
I'm not sure that you understand how things work.
Lower power consumption leads to smaller cheaper batteries with the same capacity, a fact which manufacturers will surely take advantage of to increase profits. As long as competition exists which uses less efficient CPU's, thats the way its going to be.
Re:This just in... (Score:4, Interesting)
Agreed. I'm looking forward to getting something like the Gecko Edubook [laptopshop.co.uk] which can run on cheap AA batteries instead of an expensive custom Li-Ion battery.
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I think the custom lithium ion would be a lot cheaper and more convenient than 4 hours you get off of 8 AAs. Kind of reminds me of the game gear.
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Re:This just in... (Score:4, Interesting)
The tradeoff supposedly was that RISC would give you less powerful instructions which were easier for the CPU to decode, but then it was expected that it would be more difficult for compilers or humans to write the instructions. It didn't turn out that way. E.g. x86 comes from the time of constrained 8-bit processors, and back then there were no wasteful niceties in the instruction encoding. Most of the worst nastiness is gone as of x86_64, and assemblers hide some of the rest from you.
If you want to program CISC, at least go for M68k/ColdFire, but you won't find many user-programmable devices with ColdFire anymore. ARM is everywhere. My personal favourite is SPARC, and SPARC machines are relatively easy to come by.
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All instruction sets are like that. RISC or not makes no difference.
The key difference with ARM is it's almost beautiful to look at: it's (mostly) orthogonal, has a regular but very powerful syntax, and it's easy to see the data dependencies. I'd say hand-coding ARM assembly is easier than any other processor I've done it on (and that's lots).
I agree with his friend, and would go further to say anyone who's serious about programming should learn at least one assembly syntax to know what's going on under
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MS will adapt. Eventually. (Score:2, Interesting)
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Re:MS will adapt. Eventually. (Score:4, Interesting)
The very applications that keep a lot of people running Windows instead of e.g. Linux also keep Windows firmly locked to x86.
Take away the third-party closed source applications/games, and suddenly Windows is looking pretty crappy even to your average consumer.
Apple handled this with emulation, but they were moving to a faster chip.
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Re:MS will adapt. Eventually. (Score:4, Insightful)
Not every game needs to be bleeding edge to attract players. There are plenty of simple casual games that have a much larger market than the "core" gamer market that will run perfectly fine on a netbook (or what ever the hell they are calling them now). The idea is to focus on game play and mechanics rather than eye candy.
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Re:MS will adapt. Eventually. (Score:4, Insightful)
Probably they do have experimental builds, but there's very little point in MS actually making products from them. The reason why you want Windows is because Windows apps run on Windows. They also have to produce ARM builds of all of the software that people need. They can do that for their own stuff, but most Windows software is not produced by MS. It's important to remember that when you get Ubuntu, you get a whole load more software than on a plain Windows box and even most of the software not included comes with source code so it's relatively easy for someone to port it to the new architecture. Not to mention that Windows Mobile has done real damage to the Windows brand by looking so much worse than Symbian phones, let alone Android or the iPhone. They can't afford to keep repeating that.
The Intel Atom is produced specifically to make an i386 platform which competes with the ARM. MS would do much better to commit to that kind of platform. The power consumption is "good enough" and they don't risk splitting their market share.
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What MS could do is change the executable format for Windows 8, to allow for fat binaries, and then make their compilers always compile to x86/Itanium/ARM fat binaries.
(Speaking of that, that's why MS was pushing .NET so hard, because Itanium was supposed to be the future, and MS didn't want to get left behind by CPU architecture changes - hence trying to move everything to interpreted bytecode.)
Well... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Well... (Score:4, Funny)
Aw, c'mon, don't be so naive. Everyone knows that on ARM, they're wiping Linux to install bootleg WinCE! ~
Re:Well... (Score:4, Insightful)
That's because running Windows Vista costs you both an ARM and a LEG to get a computer that can run it. Can't do it with just one.
ARM vs x86 (Score:2, Insightful)
ARM has an advantage such as lower power consumption, but it also has a huge disadvantage - it does not run x86 programs.
It will be the same situation like with PDAs ~10 years ago.
I want some program, it's available for PC, but not available for Psion.
With this ARM "smartbook", I'll still have to lug around a big laptop to be able to run those programs that the smartbook doesn't. I think that in this regard, I'd rather buy a Fujitsu U810 or equivalent.(17cm x15.5cm x 2.7cm but has Atom and is fully compatib
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Linux. Arm-based netbook already out by Always Innovating:
http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/home/index.htm
Most people don't use netbooks for more than email/browsing. This is great for them.
Re:ARM vs x86 (Score:4, Informative)
Not necessarily a problem at all. If the user chooses Ubuntu, then synaptec, ( or apt-get, aptitude, etc.) will install an application successfully with something that works, transparently.
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Not necessarily a problem at all. If the user chooses Ubuntu, then synaptec, ( or apt-get, aptitude, etc.) will install an application successfully with something that works, transparently.
Like Adobe's Flash?
I didn't think so.
Re:ARM vs x86 (Score:5, Insightful)
Why not ? Their has been a version of Flash for Linux on ARM for years already (see Nokia N810 for example).
Luckily it's provbably the only non-opensource-program you'd want to install on such a device anyway.
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Flash and Adobe Reader are both pretty terrible programs; infinitely more so when you move off of the holy consumer shrine known as Windows/x86. There is the gnash project (flash player), which can currently play youtube videos. There are also about a billion different PDF readers fo
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Ubuntu will have an ARM-architecture for their new release: Karmic Koala
Their has been Flash on ARM for years, I'm sure Ubuntu talked to Adobe about having a good version for Ubuntu on ARM.
Actually, Flash is usually one of the very few, possible even the only one, non-Open Source-program you'd want to install on such a device.
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I don't know if ubuntu has an arm port, but debian does. Thought I'd clarify something though. With x86-64 you can run 32-bit apps seamlessly. You really don't give anything up. I've been running windows 7 64-bit and I have yet to come across a 32-bit application that will not run. Device drivers were the real issues with 64-bit XP, and now 64 bit drivers are pretty standard. There aren't many disadvantages to running a 64-bit OS. Just a small performance penalty. Like 5% or something. We really should than
Re:ARM vs x86 (Score:4, Informative)
Debian has a complete ARM distribution including all of those things you describe. It wouldn't be hard for Ubuntu to shift their distribution efforts to ARM. In fact, it's just changing a few lines in a shell script.
Re:ARM vs x86 (Score:5, Informative)
Ubuntu will have an ARM-architecture for their new release: Karmic Koala, scheduled for release in October 2009
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Are you saying that Ubuntu has a way to automatically download an ARM version of FireFox and OpenOffice?
I don't know about Ubuntu but Debian most certainly has Firefox [debian.org] and OpenOffice packages for ARM that are ready to use.
Even then, what about Flash and Adobe Reader? How am I going to play my favorite YouTube videos and Facebook games?
Do you really want to use a proprietary browser plugin with a horrible [slashdot.org] security [slashdot.org] history [h-online.com] like Adobe Flash, with _known_ vulnerabilities [h-online.com] that have been unpatched for over 8 months?
With new open technologies like HTML5, Flash is becoming more and more obsolete anyway.
YouTube videos can be easily downloaded and played with mplayer. Gnash, a reverse-engineered libre replacement for Adobe Flash, g
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http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/pressroom/pressreleases/200811/111708ARMAdobeFlash.html [adobe.com]
Re:ARM vs x86 (Score:5, Insightful)
"...but it also has a huge disadvantage - it does not run x86 programs."
You are missing the point, this is only an issue when using Windows and the point is to get rid of Windows.
There are already a huge amount of applications moved to other CPU architectures and many others need just to be recompiled.
Yes I do know that it may not be "just recompile" but the Linux community is much faster to adapt than Windows community.
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Is there a Mathcad (one program off the top of my head) equivalent for Linux and/or ARM?
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Wrong target market. These devices will likely be sold as "big iPhones"
There's a market for such a machine, as long as it's got a web browser, word processor, and a reasonable assortment of other apps available. I'd love to have a spare PC lying around...particularly one that's cheap enough to be slightly reckless with, and has extremely long battery life.
I'm not entirely convinced that the target market's huge, given that we already have our expensive/precious laptops and iPhones. However, the popularit
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You may find this link helpful [tinyurl.com]
Re:ARM vs x86 (Score:4, Informative)
Re:ARM vs x86 (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not quite that simple.
There are, for example, plenty of cases where people have been able to switch to Linux because they can still run $FAVOURITE_PROGRAM with Wine. And Wine is still tied to x86. I suspect emulating an x86 processor will be a bit beyond most ARM smartbooks.
There are also a lot of people who, like it or not, do use closed-source software on Linux. I have several closed-source programs installed on the very Linux netbook I'm typing this on. Will the vendors of those programs be happy to port them to ARM? They've already taken a risk just supporting the tiny x86 Linux market; the ARM Linux market is even smaller.
Don't get me wrong. I love the idea of ARM smartbooks, and if Dell brings one out with Ubuntu on it, I will buy it without a moment's hesitation. I'm just pointing out that x86 is only irrelevant if you only ever use purely F/OSS software, and that isn't universal even among Linux fans.
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While it is true that the ARM will not run programs compiled for the x86, that isn't a huge deal because such a smart book would only _ever_ run linux. How many binary only apps are even available, let alone important, on linux? (BTW, something like 90+% of applications shouldn't need any source level modification to run on an ARM arch.)
> With this ARM "smartbook", I'll still have to lug around a big laptop to be able to run those programs that the smartbook doesn't.
As a matter of curiosity, what would
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They shouldn't, but a lot of programmers have gotten used to tricks which work on x86.
Trust me, I've used (at various times) linux/alpha,sparc(64),arm,x86,x86-64,powerpc windows/alpha,x86,x86-64 solaris/x86,x86-64,sparc openvms/alpha.
The most consistent of those are the various Linux distributions, most mainline software has been whacked enough that it works. Though even there, sometimes people use those tricks, or they make assumptions about sizes, Netscape was a problem on alphas, on both Windows and
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Drivers should be much less of an issue, because Linux is the gonna be the primary platform for these kinds of devices. The only binary-only you'd want to install is probably Flash which has had an ARM-build for years.
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x86 permits (but discourages because they are slow) unaligned loads and stores. ARM does not, but a compiler can work around this with a (slow) sequence of add shift and mask instructions (the shifts are free on ARM) so this isn't really a problem. Porting from x86 to ARM is largely just a matter of making sure you don't use any inline asm or CPU-specific intrinsics.
Of the three examples
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That's why it was possible for Ubuntu to say, our next release will have an ARM-port as well, which they are doing now.
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ARM has an advantage such as lower power consumption, but it also has a huge disadvantage - it does not run x86 programs.
Why is this a problem? Just find a free software distribution that offers packages for ARM, like Debian. Problem solved... but... if you really depend on propietary x86 programs.... Doesn't that worry you at all?
Re:ARM vs x86 (Score:4, Funny)
"it also has a huge disadvantage - it does not run x86 programs"
This is Slashdot. Being Windows-proof is a feature, not a bug.
Ripe for adoption (Score:2, Insightful)
I predict that these things are going to take off. Once people realize that they don't need a heavy OS like Windows in order to enjoy a portable platform that provides email & web browsing, any prejudice against will evaporate. Besides, most people won't even notice that Windows is missing.
One reason PDA's never took off is the man-machine interface. The keyboard is pretty much a must-have for an email & messaging platform. These things are going to be everywhere, especially with carriers eager
Re:Ripe for adoption (Score:4, Interesting)
I don't think so. The whole point of a little netbook ("Oooooh, look at the cute little laptop!") is making your regular (lightweight) notebook apps portable. For the majority of consumers, that means they want to run exactly the same e-mail program, the same browser, the same IM program(s)... Realizing that they need to learn to use a completely different interface is going to be quite a shock. It was supposedly pretty much the same with the Ubuntu laptops certain manufacturers have been selling...
I don't really see the appeal in an ARM netbook. In fact, I wish my phone was x86 - the current standard Windows Mobile smartphone res of 800x480 is just fine for a stripped down XP or even Win7... hell, if they could just get the damned things up to 24 hours (or even 15 or so!) without a recharge, I'd be more than happy. If all you're interested in is ARM and long battery life, get a smartphone and a foldable bluetooth keyboard. Otherwise, get an x86-based netbook and be satisfied with the currently available 10 hours of battery life...
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I guess this is why this has such appeal to Linux-users. These devices do just that, run a Linux-distribution on a smaller device, the same way like they run on the bigger desktop-machines.
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For a significant number of people, that boils down to Firefox plus one of the numerous popular webmail providers and web-based chat clients. Sounds like a market to me ...
A Big Up Yours (Score:3, Insightful)
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Re:A Big Up Yours (Score:5, Informative)
If ARM-based netbooks become popular, you will see an ARM port of Win7 in a few months, with a thorough porting guide for applications, tools to check for potential problems, etc (most cross-architecture quirks were already ironed out when x64 and especially Itanium support were introduced).
People kinda miss the fact that most applications are just a recompile away from a different architecture, so long as OS is the same - and not just FOSS code. Yes, you cannot do the recompilation/porting yourself, so there is some disadvantage, but you can be sure that, if there's market, all products that are still being actively developed will be ported.
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The quirks were worked out long before that: Windows NT until 4.0 supported x86, Alpha, MIPS, and PowerPC. 2000 (i.e., NT 5.0) supported Alpha until as late as after RC1.
Yet only one of these four architectures ever had decent support for Office: x86. (There was a single release of Office for the others including Word 6.0 and Excel 5.0, both 32-bit, and PowerPoint 4.0, as 16-bit.) Why? Office, especially PowerPoint and Access, both apparently contain a lot of x86 Assembly.
The other architectures died becaus
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Finally (Score:4, Insightful)
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Just have a look at what for example the Touchbook has to offer:
http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/Always-Innovating-Touch-Book/ [linuxfordevices.com]
That's definitly some else then just a small laptop.
Test baloons? (Score:2, Interesting)
In an effort to expand its Linux offerings, Dell is researching new netbook-type devices and will soon offer netbook Linux OS upgrades, a company official said on Wednesday.
It ends with
The company is also researching Google's Chrome for use in netbooks.
Makes netbooks-are-atom-and-smartbooks-are-ARM distinction.
However
Dell couldn't say whether it would ultimately offer a smartbook.
Maybe just floating of test baloons.
Nice idea, but let's wait for what Apple is up to (Score:3, Interesting)
Like it or loath it, Apple has seriously shaken up the mobile phone industry, and got away with something nobody else ever managed: taking a big slice of the carrier's cake on top.
If Appe brings out a sensible iTablet that actually works and is smart enough to work with the laser keyboard [vkb-support.com] (the Bluetooth version does proper HID support) I cannot see that fail, and it will probably nuke the market Dell is looking at.
The tablet in itself goes into markets at present taken by ebook stuff like the Kindle, and with a proper remote keyboard it hits the portable market - why take a whole system if it's that portable.
So I'd wait a bit - let's see what Apple is up to. I hope I'm right - it's about time for such a device.
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Stockholm syndrome (Score:3, Interesting)
It's interesting how some people are quick to declare portable ARM computers a failure because it won't run their favorite (proprietary) x86 programs.
That's the Stockholm Syndrome, only with software instead of human kidnappers.
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First of all, these devices have some limited capabilities, that means their is a certain set/type of programs you'd expect them to run, specifically mostly a browser, an e-mail program, some light Office work maybe.
And pretty much all applications in Debian (and soon Ubuntu) are able to run on ARM/Linux. Only other thing you might want is Flash on these devices to possible watch some video's in webpages.
And their has been an ARM-build of Flash for years (look at Nokia N810 for example).
Yes, but... (Score:5, Funny)
Chrome OS will help make this happen (Score:3, Insightful)
Where most people will be scared of trying linux, they'll trust it when it has the Google brand. Where many people might be confused by an OS that looks mostly like Windows but where everything is just different enough to be confusing, they'll probably understand the concept of "Chrome OS is just a browser & nothing else". The remaining question is if ARM + Chrome OS will drive prices down low enough that people will be willing to forego the flexibility & familiarity of a regular Windows laptop.
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Actually, I think most people don't know what Chrome is, they don't associate it with a browser (yet).
What's a 'smartbook'? (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm afraid it will be something weaker and smaller than current netbooks. A toy computer, compared to the real computers that run Windows on x86, like God intended.
The point is, why can't we have a regularly sized laptop with a sensible processor like ARM?
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Or ARM desktops, I mean, why the fuck not? Make a tiny machine (think G4 Cube type box), powerful enough for most desktop stuff, with a low power consumption, and I'm sure you could get lots of people/businesses/schools interested.
Good way for them to buy/replace a whole bunch of desktop machines for cheap, that eat up less power/emit less heat and noise and don't take much room. The time has come for us to have dirt cheap tiny machines.
I will buy arm architecture (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:but will it run (Score:5, Funny)
No.
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What? So no viruses?
If that's the case, then it would seem to that there's even less hope for the average Linux user to attract the notice of malware developers.
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Well, some embeddded version of Windows which has no applications available. But pretty much all Open Source applications that run on x86 Linux are available on ARM. Just take a look at the Debian repository. Even Ubuntu will have an ARM-port for their next release.
Re:Can you scale an x86 processor down? (Score:5, Interesting)
Or does x86 inherently consume more power at the same performance level?
Difficult: ARM has traditionally had a very clean instruction set which eliminates a lot of the junk that an x86 requires in order to function, and it's much easier to take a chip designed for low power and increase the performance than to take a 100+W monster like an x86 and scale it down for low-power use. The modern 'x86', at least from Intel, is basically an x86 emulator wrapped around a RISC core.... the ARM effectively eliminates the emulator and just runs the RISC core.
If I remember correctly, the dual-core ARM chips I was working on a couple of years ago used about 1W of power to play 720p HD... an Atom has trouble doing that even with several times that power usage.
Re:Can you scale an x86 processor down? (Score:4, Interesting)
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Yes, they do OoOE, but not with the insane amount of register renaming of the OoOE-x86/OoOE-PowerPC ones, nor with the same alternate execution depth. The ARM Cortex OoOE is a very power-wised balanced OoOE, however, and is just my opinion, completely unnecesary (you could put 3 in-order-execution cores instead of the 2 out-of-order-execution ones).
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
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Only that their printer *will* actually print. With CUPS I found it to be less hassle to make a printer work on Linux than on Windows.
Tell me one thing that they would want to do, that is not limited because of performance.
Hardware on Linux: Works.
Browsing, music, movies, e-mail, chatting, instant messaging, etc: All works nicely, and out of the box.
If you think otherwise, that you haven't used any recent Ubuntu or similar distribution.
Additionally, the distribution will of course be adapted to the laptop,
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The 32-bit wrapper works because chips like the athlon64 and core can both run 32-bit apps natively in 64-bit mode since they can execute x86. I really don't know who modded this one insightful.
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Their has been an ARM-build of Flash for years, just look at Nokia N810 for example. But you have to remember these devices are meant for surfing the web, maybe some e-mail, some light office work, etc. So Flash is the only proprietary you'll probably need. Which is already available.
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Could be, could also be because Ubuntu's next release will have an ARM-release and they already ship Ubuntu.
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Or maybe because Ubuntu's next release will have an ARM-release and they already ship Ubuntu.