California Student Arrested For Console Hacking 1016
jhoger writes "Matthew Crippen was arrested yesterday for hacking game consoles (for profit) in violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. He was released on a $5,000 bond, but faces up to 10 years in prison. This is terribly disturbing to me; a man could lose 10 years of his freedom for providing the service of altering hardware. He could well lose much of his freedom for providing a modicum of it to others. There is no piracy going on, necessarily — the games a modified console could run may simply not be signed by the vendor. It's much like jailbreaking an iPhone. But it seems because he is disabling a 'circumvention device' it is a criminal issue. Guess it's time to kick a few dollars over to the EFF."
Misread (Score:5, Funny)
I imagined a college student having an impassioned argument with a police officer on whether the ps3 or the xbox 360 is better. The student goes too far and insults Halo and he's lead away in handcuffs.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
They see me pwnin'. They hatin'.
Re:Misread (Score:5, Insightful)
Yup. Helping slaves escape used to be against the law too. All those people should have went to jail and have the full weight of the law thrown against them as well.
FWIW, I used to think that way too - you break the law, pay the price, and work to fix the law. Then, started thinking about people who just want to sit down at the front of the bus... or drink from a water fountain...
Apphrended by ICE (Score:3, Insightful)
The DHS wants you to think of them like this: http://www.dhs.gov/index.shtm [dhs.gov]
But this is what they really are: http://www.ice.gov/ [ice.gov]
No quarter to tired, poor, huddled masses yearning to breathe free.
Apphrended by DHS (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm sure glad that the Homeland is secure from this miscreant.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Hold on
Re:Duh, ICE is a Dept Within DHS (Score:5, Funny)
What? How about taking your own advice Anonymous Coward. I see you post on every feckin story I read. You always take this tough guy stance and say exactly what you mean without fear of karma or being modded to oblivion. I wish you would just shut the fuck up and quit posting in every article I read..
Re:Duh, ICE is a Dept Within DHS (Score:4, Funny)
Justice (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Justice (Score:5, Funny)
And hundreds, if not thousands, of violent crime offenders go without jail time every week. I love a functining legal system.
But isn't violating a "business model" a seriouser threat to our homeland security?
Re:Justice (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Justice (Score:5, Insightful)
You actually hit it on the head.
If you go after big gangs and organized crime you end up with dead cops because those guys will defend themselves.
Cops choose to grab the helpless citizen that is beaking an obscure law that in reality is not harming others or society. It's easier to rough up a unarmed college student, less chance of having a 10gauge with a slug unloaded at your chest.
Note: if you wear kevlar, a 10gauge to your chest will put you on the ground for at least 30 minutes, thugs with shotguns scare the shit out of cops because their armor does nothing to stop kenetic energy from knocking them over and making it hard to breathe.
Honestly, cops need to be going after the hard crap that actually harms others and society, and not the harmless crap.
Re:Justice (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Justice (Score:5, Interesting)
If you haven't realized it already the Legal system is functioning the way it is intended.
Plato states quite clearly that there is no true justice, but the appearance of it is what matters in society. The lower classes of society must believe there is justice else the upper classes may lose their power.
Don't worry however, the DHS has plenty of training manuals stating that people who question the government are possible domestic extremists. There will be a few agents on their way to send you to a re-education camp.
The American Federal System (Score:5, Interesting)
And hundreds, if not thousands, of violent crime offenders go without jail time every week. I love a functining legal system.
It functions as it was built to function.
In the American federal system, violent crimes are traditionally prosecuted at the state and local level.
The federal government has no general criminal jurisdiction outside of Washington D.C., its island territories, military bases, Indian reservations, and similiar enclaves.
The Secret Service was orginally organized to fight counterfeiting - a purely economic crime with an interstate dimension. ICE is the criminal enforcement division of the customs and immigration service - and these are not guys you want to fool around with.
Violent offenders who do enter the federal system get hammered. There is little willingness to plea bargain. When the judge says twenty-five years to life, you serve twenty-five years to life.
Scary (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Scary (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Scary (Score:4, Insightful)
Why can't everyone see that the legal system has historically, with very few exceptions, done nothing but work against the people, to benefit corporate interests? Why isn't it a crime for executives at AIG and other bailed out banks to receive huge bonuses at the expense of tax payers? Why is it a crime for some college kid to hack some game consoles? We're talking about billions vs hundreds of dollars.
FTFY.
It works this way because their billions buy Congressmen, while our hundreds pay them rent.
Re:Scary (Score:4, Insightful)
It's even questionable whether or not violating copyright is always counter productive in the long run. Our current copyright laws are mainly the result of people with lots of money and influence getting laws passed that profit them at our expense.
Re:Scary (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Scary (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Scary (Score:4, Interesting)
"Playing pirated games on any device is and should be illegal. Modifying the device in a way that makes it possible to play pirated games should NOT be illegal."
And therein lies the rub. From TFA:
"The Cal State Fullerton student was arrested Monday on federal charges that he illegally modified Xbox, Playstation, Wii and other video game consoles to enable the machines to play pirated video games."
"Specifically, the college student is accused of modifying for personal financial gain technology affecting control or access to a copyrighted work"
'They' aren't trampling your rights to mod the hardware you own. They're trampling this guys (non-existent) right to mod consoles for profit. This isn't some basement hacker getting his door kicked in by the jack booted thugs. He's no different (legally anyway) from guys selling pirated movies.
Re:Scary (Score:4, Insightful)
He's no different (legally anyway) from guys selling pirated movies.
I would agree if he was selling pirated games, but what he was doing is more akin to selling a DVD player that is region unlocked.
Re:Scary (Score:4, Interesting)
Good luck making intent illegal without trampling all over everyone's rights.
Re:Scary (Score:5, Insightful)
When you buy a game console, does the store have you sign some licensing document? No? Then the "you don't own, you're just licensing" theory is a steaming pile of horseshit.
These game consoles are the rightful property of their owners, who can rightfully use them in an consensual act, including hiring someone to repair or modify them.
Re:Consentual acts with consoles (Score:4, Informative)
This thread is PedoBear approved!
Re:Scary (Score:4, Informative)
The problem is that in the video game industry, when you boycott by simply not buying, you instantly become a "pirate". We are way beyond this type of boycott having any kind of positive desirable effect.
US of A (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:US of A (Score:5, Interesting)
I can't understand how the freedom of a business comes before the freedom of the people.
There is a quote attributed (perhaps erroneously) to Mussolini, but he is alleged to have said "Socialism should more properly be called corporatism, because it combines the power of the business sector with the power of the state".
I do believe America is suffering now under a kind of corporatism. The term seems more accurate than capitalism. At least since we are also a democracy there may be hope.
correcting an error in my post - apologies (Score:4, Informative)
I can't understand how the freedom of a business comes before the freedom of the people.
There is a quote attributed (perhaps erroneously) to Mussolini, but he is alleged to have said "FASCISM should more properly be called corporatism, because it combines the power of the business sector with the power of the state".
I do believe America is suffering now under a kind of corporatism. The term seems more accurate than capitalism. At least since we are also a democracy there may be hope.
Re:correcting an error in my post - apologies (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:US of A (Score:5, Interesting)
Organized crime (Score:5, Insightful)
This is behavior you'd expect from the Mafia. It just underscores the fact that there's not much difference between our government and an organized crime syndicate.
I wonder where these numbers came from? (Score:5, Insightful)
Industry and trade associations estimate that counterfeiting and piracy now cost the U.S. economy as much as $250 billion a year and a total of 750,000 American jobs.
I mean, aside from being pulled out of thin air that is?
Re:I wonder where these numbers came from? (Score:5, Interesting)
Funnily enough 750,000 seems to be the go-to figure for jobs [google.co.uk], either created or lost. I read "Risk" by Martin Gardener recently and I've found it's great for noticing when people use their memory of other numbers to cue-up made-up stats like these. (That will also take you to some debunkings of those numbers.)
Ars Technica dug up sources a year ago (Score:5, Informative)
The 750k jobs is a dubious claim from 1986 about counterfeit goods. The $250 billion is a 1993 figure given for the worldwide market of, again, counterfeit goods.
They force you to lease software (Score:5, Insightful)
If he owns an xbox he should be able to do whatever he damn well pleases to the xbox, it is the same as any other computer. It's fair for the company (microsoft/sony/nintendo) to make it so that their games will not work on a hacked system, they shouldn't have to guarantee the games will work unless you use their specifications, but it's not fair to take him to jail even if the modifications allow him to use unsigned software. hell, I build computers that have the capability to play pirated games all the time. How is this different?
PS: in before RTFA, he's modifying consoles for financial gain, how is this different from building a computer for financial gain?
Re:They force you to lease software (Score:5, Insightful)
Car Analogy:
You can legally mod cars (for financial gain even) to exceed speed limits to the extreme.
Re:They force you to lease software (Score:4, Insightful)
You are perfectly free to remove the emmissions controls from your vehicles. Just don't get mad when you are no longer allowed to drive them on public property.
You are also allowed to do whatever you want with an Odometer in your own vehicle. Just don't go and claim that the reading is accurate.
You may also remove all the seatbelts from a vehicle. Operating it in that condition though on public property or with passengers will likely get you in trouble.
The only semi valid point is the odometer adjusting, and that's because it's not a safety issue but an honesty one. When I purchased my xbox there was no aggreement for me to sign or not that said I could not modify it or have another modify it.
If the beverage companies got a law passed so that no one could re-use their bottles would you find that law valid? What if Nalogen started selling their bottles prefilled with water and stated selling "refills" for their bottles and tried to restrict you from refilling your bottle on your own through acts of congress?
Unless it breaks someone elses basic human rights we should be allowed to use and modify any product legally purchased as we see fit.
Re:They force you to lease software (Score:4, Insightful)
Fuck all these laws that control how we use stuff we own!
[/sarcasm]
Yes... so are you arguing that the government has a right to control how we do everything because we permit it to control some things? Where does liberty come into the equation then?
The general idea is that your right to swing your arms stops at your neighbor's chin.
The Supreme Court may have found a corporation to be a person, but I don't.
All these examples you gave are pretty weak. Disable your catalytic converter, and you have a fairly direct effect on air pollution which impacts you and your neighbors health. Roll back your odometer... there's really no reason to do that ever except to cheat someone. That's effectively interfering with an official measurement. Remove seat belts in a car... again, a safety issue.
Now, a game console. There is a legitimate purpose to doing that: running unsigned games on hardware you own (did you sign a contract saying otherwise when you bought your console?). That shouldn't be illegal, if you believe in liberty.
Back before it was even called the DMCA (Score:5, Informative)
Parity? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is insane. This kid is looking at 10 years for modifying hardware while another story linked right at the bottom of the same article describes a cop getting a one day suspension (with pay) for running down a child with his car [nbcdfw.com]
Re:Parity? (Score:5, Informative)
I disagree it was the kid's fault. The cop was responding to a "disturbance call without starting his lights and sirens" and he "sped around a short curve". So he was speeding to the call without putting on the safety devices that allow him to break normal traffic laws. He caused the accident by driving carelessly on a dangerous road. A 1 day suspension for what is basically reckless endangerment is laughable.
Re:Parity? (Score:4, Informative)
I clicked your link... The kid was struck crossing a busy, unlit road at night, by a car coming around a blind corner. Sounds like tragic accident to me. If anybody is to blame it's the kid's parents for letting him out at night on a bike, without proper safety instruction.
Read the article. The cop was speeding around a blind corner without his lights or siren on. Yes, he was responding to a call, but he was breaking police protocol, and probably state and local laws, by speeding and by failing to turn on his lights and siren. Should the kid have been in the street? Well, there's no law against riding your bike in the street that I've heard of. How do you know that the child had no safety instruction? It seems to me that the cop is the one without adequate safety instruction. Hitting and killing that child seems to have been caused by the officer's negligence - driving too fast without his lights and siren on.
So what's your point? That we should be punishing people severely for things they have no control over? I presume you believe the punishment for violating the DMCA to be disproportionate, but you picked a poor example.
My main point is that there is a severe lack of parity in the US justice system. Those with money and/or power (cops, giant corporations) can basically do what they want while the little guy (kid on a bike, hardware hacker) get screwed or worse. A side point would be that a crime that has actually caused significant harm (the cop killing the kid) goes basically unpunished while the "crime" of modifying game consoles which hurts basically nobody can be punished by 10 years in jail.
the poll on the nbc site ... (Score:4, Informative)
your options are
I voted Furious
But the current scores are
Re:the poll on the nbc site ... (Score:5, Funny)
From the percentages you post, I deduce there had been exactly 6 votes posted, so we now know there are at least 3 assholes on the internet.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem is, that someone will spin that as
"64% of people were FURIOUS that this nasty little toe-rag was hacking consoles and cheating the companies out of their God-given profits!!!"
It's now 82% furious, by the way.
Devil's Advocate (Score:3, Insightful)
Now, should it be a crime? Should it be a crime with a possible 10 year penalty? Should law enforcement resources be wasted on inane garbage like this while there are real, serious criminals out there that are still walking free? I think the answers to all those questions are obvious (at least I hope they are...) but the reality is what he was doing is a crime and thus he broke the law. I would hope people will be sufficiently bothered by this situation (and the ten year sentence for something so insignificant while people who commit violent crimes get much less time...) that they will be motivated to write their government and demand a change. If enough people raise their voice, maybe, just maybe, the government will pay attention. As it is, the only voice they hear are those of lobbyist for major media companies who want laws like this on the books. They got their way and now this guy is (presumably) guilty of something that shouldn't be a crime, but currently is...
Re:Devil's Advocate (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, he broke the law and got caught. What's your point? That we shouldn't be outraged? I'm not surprised this happened, but it's still outrageous. Every person involved in the investigation and prosecution of this act, and the passing of the legislation that criminalized it, is complicit in evil. They are far more dangerous than the "criminals" they claim to protect us against.
The hyperbole is staggering... (Score:3)
Once again the media completely misses the point (Score:5, Insightful)
From the article
Counterfeiting and piracy have grown in recent years in both magnitude and complexity, according to ICE.
That's nice. Now how is that connected to the "crime" of modding a console? How is what he did connected to piracy other than the strained connection that modding consoles inevitably leads to piracy which he should be held responsible for? Even if you buy that, how is any of it inolved with "counterfeiting"? No one is stamping out illegal copies of games to be sold as the real thing here. Wrong issue entirely.
Some estimates indicate that 5 percent to 8 percent of all the goods and merchandise sold worldwide are counterfeit.
Again, a completely irrelevant fact mentioned only for the purpose of trying to connect his "crime" to a larger and more obviously illegal sounding one.
I wish mainstream news outlets would hire people to do research and write informed articles, because the alternative seems to be just parroting whatever the alphabet soup of government agencies tells them about the issue. Though, I guess now I know to watch out for those counterfeit modded game consoles.
Health and Safety issue??? (Score:4, Insightful)
>> âoePiracy, counterfeiting and other intellectual property rights violations not only cost U.S. businesses jobs and billions of dollars a year in lost revenue, they can also pose significant health and safety risks to consumers,â he said.
Health and Safety risks? Give me a f*&%ing break... at least with regards to Intellectual Property. Sure, counterfeit aircraft replacement parts pose a real safety problem (and it's a real problem... go after that one, guys!), but copying videogames?
If the guy was overtly doing this to enable the use of pirated games, then sure, he's guilty. But if the majority of his work is to enable homebrew or emulation software, they should set him free and give him a pat on the back. I lose all sympathy for the copyright holders when they try to use FUD about "Health and Safety" to prop up their failing business model.
MadCow.
Troubling (Score:5, Insightful)
Joe Public will read this story and think "so what, some kid who helped destroy game company profits got his comeuppance," but the technically astute on this site will notice that this law, while currently applied to a trivial domain like game consoles, will be affecting the whole computer industry for years to come. The iPhone, like most game consoles, has a mechanism to prevent unsigned code from running. It is protected by the DMCA. The Kindle from Amazon is probably protected by the DMCA.
Your legal ability to do what you want, with the hardware you own, is slowly being eroded by new hardware with DRM baked in, and lawsuits like the one in the article. The issue is about personal freedom as much as it's about piracy.
Pirate Party? (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm curious if the Pirate Party will start getting enough traction in the U.S. to matter.
Cases like this only really piss-off young, highly technical persons. But if you factor in the RIAA's and MPAA's actions over the last 5 years, it makes me wonder.
Playing pirated games will cause you do die (Score:5, Funny)
From the article:
"Playing with games in this way is not a game -- it is criminal," said Robert Schoch, special agent in charge of the ICE investigations office in Los Angeles. "Piracy, counterfeiting and other intellectual property rights violations not only cost U.S. businesses jobs and billions of dollars a year in lost revenue, they can also pose significant health and safety risks to consumers," he said.
Emphasis mine. What health risks are there? Pac Man fever?
Get involved (Score:5, Insightful)
I've been involved in a Civil Liberties group that reviews and lobbies legislation for appropriate changes prior to them becoming law, something quite different from the EFF. From my initial conversations organisations like this are in need of people with a technological bent to advise them on the ramifications of technology legislation before it passes into law.
It's not the first time I've done it and I've found that if you you are polite to the ministers involved they are quite responsive and will listen to what you have to say and if they see your name often enough they will ask you for advice, they asked me. It's interesting to see the changes you suggest actually either make it into law or not make it into law due to your lobbying.
Thing is, it's not a game. If you don't act then, incrementally, freedoms will be whittled away. If it's not by the lobbying of a special interest group (for example Microsoft with the Xbox) then it will be by a knee jerk reaction to something else that has happened. Once it's passed into law it's very unlikely that it will *ever* be rolled-back.
No sense of balance (Score:3, Insightful)
Ridiculous (Score:5, Insightful)
I can't comprehend how this should be a *criminal* offense.
Really? This person is so dangerous we need to lock him in a metal cage for ten years?
I agree if we allowed people to completely, freely, brazenly enable piracy on a commercial scale, there might be some damage to the production of video games that might hurt us all. Confiscate the guy's hardware, take his profits, and figure out how many consoles he sold, and fine him the cost of, say, two or three video games per console.
Honestly, it's this kind of batshit-insane loss of all perspective that makes young people hate The Establishment so much. I swear, if prison times reflected actual *physical peril* that someone represents to society and fines represented *actual damages* (plus a slight disincentive (like 10%, not 10,000%)) the relationship between authority and youth in this country would be dramatically different.
Re:Not-for-profit (Score:5, Insightful)
Uh huh. Let's not bother to read the article, shall we?
Look, the sentence this guy is facing is ridiculous and the law needs changing, but we don't have to pretend that he's just some nerd modding a console or two for his homies.
Re:Not-for-profit (Score:5, Insightful)
Quantity doesn't really mean anything, I've got 6 computers, that doesn't mean that I am selling 5 of them. How many of those "...more than a dozen..." are actually running? or in a closet? covered in 3mm of dust?
...Microsoft, Nintendo, and Sony video game consoles.
Well MS hasn't been involved that long, but what if some of the "Nintendo's" are NES/SNES, are the "Sony's" PS1's? I'd still have a Commodore64, Atari, NES, Sega Genesis, etc if I hadn't moved, and I likely wouldn't be doing anything with them.
...illegally modified Xbox, Playstation, Wii and other video game consoles
Fine, but what constitutes "illegal", are they all modded? or were some of them just sitting there without there shells "potentially modified" or some shit? I'm not saying the guy is innocent, only that the article is full of fuck all, and uses the classic tactics to enrage (frankly, idiotic) people like trailing off into
"Piracy, counterfeiting and other intellectual property rights violations not only cost U.S. businesses jobs and billions of dollars a year in lost revenue, they can also pose significant health and safety risks to consumers," he said.
Like this guy modding consoles caused your favorite store to close, and is going to make YOU lose your job, and hell fuckit, he might even give you cancer. KILL THE BASTARD.
He deserves a fine, and nothing more.
Re:Not-for-profit (Score:5, Insightful)
If you agree that the actual facts of the case don't matter and it's fine to just make shit up, why not say he's blind and has never touched a console in his life?
Yes, the law itself shouldn't care, but let's not pretend some random falsehood for no reason, when the law is perfectly stupid on its own.
Re:Not-for-profit (Score:4, Informative)
Reverse engineering is against the DMCA.
Woah, I think you need to re-read your DMCA.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
They probably are proud, since the particular cops in this case - "U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents"- are doing their job.
If you have some snide comments to make, they would be better directed at the elected officials that created their posts, not the grunts on the ground.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The grunts on the ground still have a conscience. They are not excused from using it. If they honestly think this is right, their conscience is as defective as any common thug. They deserve a thousand times the scorn they will get.
Re:The cops that arrested him must be proud (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The cops that arrested him must be proud (Score:4, Funny)
SOYLENT GAMES ARE PEOPLE! THEY'RE PEOPLE!
Console Modding, the DMCA and You (Score:5, Insightful)
So yes, it is definitely a legal grey area. Basically, it is illegal to sell/make modchips and provide modification servcies in the United States IF their primary and only real purpose is to get around a copy protection measure.
Console modification has the primary purpose of enabling the play of legal imported games and fair use backups, as well as enable the use of homebrew code that GREATLY expands the capabilities of the system (a perfect example of this is Xbox Media Center for the original xbox) and thus isn't just about bypassing a copy protection measure to enable piracy. In fact, if you have an original xbox and your hard drive dies, the only way to replace it is with a chip or with a TSOP flash, as the stock bios doesn't recognize non-locked hard drives (and the drives don't just have to be locked, they need to be locked with the key stored on the onboard eeprom). A modchip/tsop flash with a modified bios lets you bypass all that nonsense and just use any standard IDE/ATA hard drive with the system.>
The DMCA is a seriously terrible law to begin with. It fundamentally changes the way traditional copyright has always worked, and violates consumer rights in the name of helping big business. To quote one of my law textbooks on it:
As a side note, nowhere does the DMCA say it is illegal to USE or BUY modchips, just to make and sell them. So that leaves the end user (you) in the clear so long as they're not using it for piracy.
The sellers and makers of "anti-circumvention" devices and services on the other hand seem to be where the law is aimed at, and while I honestly don't believe the DMCA applies to chips and modding servcies, apparently the US government and the gaming industry disagree.
The only precedent for chip sales and the DMCA I could find was a September, 2006 case in which Sony sued Divineo (SCEA vs Divineo Inc, et al(457 F. Supp. 2d 957; 2006 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 74878; 81 U.S.P
Re:The cops that arrested him must be proud (Score:4, Insightful)
He wasn't comparing copying games to Nazi war attrocities, he was comparing ARRESTING him to Nazi War attrocities, like this:
Judge: Why did you shoot 15,000 Jews, Gays and Arabs?
Nazi Soldier: I was just doing my Job
Us: Why did you arrest that kid for modding his X-box?
Govt. Official: I was just doing my job
Re:The cops that arrested him must be proud (Score:5, Insightful)
We really went to Godwin's law fast, eh?
Re:The cops that arrested him must be proud (Score:5, Insightful)
they're trying to put a kid away for ten years of his life for tinkering with a console. I'd say the moral wrongness of that is quite clear.
Re:The cops that arrested him must be proud (Score:5, Informative)
they're trying to put a kid away for ten years of his life for tinkering with a console. I'd say the moral wrongness of that is quite clear.
Just for clarification, the 'kid' is actually 27 years old. More importantly, as is often the case in these reports, the maximum penalty for the charges would be 10 years. As the case hasn't even gone to court yet, there is no indication as to what the actual sentence (if any) will be.
Not saying I agree with the charges, but at least let's discuss the facts.
Re:The cops that arrested him must be proud (Score:5, Insightful)
A while back, I considered going into federal law enforcement, based on their need for computer scientists and my fascination with criminal investigations. The ~50% pay cut ultimately dissuaded me, but I spent some time thinking about issues like this.
For example, I'm generally in favor of drug legalization, but I would have had to enforce the current drug laws in this job. I'm okay with busting drug traffickers (and people selling alcohol without a license, for that matter), but would I have a problem arresting someone for personal drug use? After some contemplation, I decided that I wouldn't have a problem doing so. Law enforcement officers don't make the law or even interpret ambiguities in the law. This is the job for the legislatures and the courts, respectively.
Simply put, I don't want a cop to refuse to enforce a law for personal reasons. I have to qualify this, though. First, although selective enforcement of the law can be dangerous, there should still be some room for common sense (i.e., it's not necessary to ticket someone for jaywalking on an empty street.) At the other end of the spectrum, if a cop considers a law truly immoral, then they should resign rather than fail to do their job. However, there's a huge difference between laws one might disagree with and laws which are truly reprehensible and immoral. We shouldn't conflate a law like the DMCA with a genocidal regime like Nazi Germany; the Nuremberg references are way overblown here.
Re:The cops that arrested him must be proud (Score:5, Insightful)
Really? There's a reason it's called "pound me in the ass Federal Prison". I suppose you could argue that sending someone off to be tortured and raped for no good reason is not morally equivalent to sending them off to be killed for no good reason, but there isn't _much_ moral difference.
No. Most likely, he'll be offered some sort of plea deal, which he'll almost have to take because the stakes are just so high. If he gets a trial, it'll be a trial by a jury of those who agree with the law and who have agreed in advance to convict even if they feel it is unjust. Silliness about probation, a fine, and community service is just wishful thinking; violation of the DMCA is a felony.
Re:The cops that arrested him must be proud (Score:5, Insightful)
Exactly, and it just shows how dumb most people are, especially those enforcing the law. They apply it without a single thought. You could make a law about people having to wear specific colors every day of the week, and you'd have officiers enforcing that the next day without asking themselves if it makes sense or not.
Morals have very little to do with it, the nazi soldiers were obeying orders without questions, just like our soldiers and policemen are. Cases like this guy being arrested for modding consoles just shows how corporations are really running the show in america, and our freedoms can be taken away at any time. They're temporary privileges at most.
Oh and remember, Hitler was elected in a democracy. I wouldnt be so quick as to compare them to us and make them the bad guys and we the good guys, the line between our two societies is very thin.
Re:The cops that arrested him must be proud (Score:5, Insightful)
Obviously us slashdotters (who are 100% right all the time) know how silly the prescribed punishment is for an offense like this. However, people in other areas of expertise don't really understand the laws they are enforcing (currently modding consoles IS illegal... whether it should be is another story). All the officers know is that a kid was doing something against the law, thus they arrested him for it. They probably don't know what console modding is, nor are they the ones deciding the punishment.
The real question is - should we expect law enforcement officers to be the interpreters of "moral right" and not enforce the law when they take issue with it? Clearly we'd have many issues if each officer were to do this. Should we expect the officers to know and understand every facet of the law, as well as the technicalities of very specific offenses? I'd argue that this is too much. This is why we have the justice system, and not Robocop.
Re:The cops that arrested him must be proud (Score:4, Interesting)
The real question is - should we expect law enforcement officers to be the interpreters of "moral right" and not enforce the law when they take issue with it?
Yes. No person should ever do something they believe is wrong. Henry David Thoreau addressed this issue better than I can:
As for the ignorance issue, you have a responsibility to ensure that your actions are moral. Ignorance of the legal status of your actions will not get you off the hook in court. Ignorance of the moral ramifications of your actions will get you no sympathy from me.
Re:The cops that arrested him must be proud (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes because unjustly incarcerating a person is the same as murdering thousands of people in cold blood.
I would highly recommend that you pose rational and logical arguments, instead of emotionally based hyperbole if you want anyone to take you seriously.
it may not be the same, but it's evil, anyway. And it sets a precedent: Circumventing a copy protection device is now a criminal offense, even if you do it for fair use purposes. The law is completely wrong, it was lobbied by a monopoly, and helping enforce it is evil.
Since when was The Law supposed to benefit the rich?
The worst part is that if I wanted people to rebel against this unfair law, suddenly I'd legally become a conspirator.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Because there is a HUGE difference between liquefying people and copying someone's game.
The actual comparison would be liquefying people vs. arresting someone for console hacking. It was the perpetrators of the holocaust who were tried at Nuremberg, not its victims.
Re:The cops that arrested him must be proud (Score:4, Interesting)
It's a difference of degree, not one of substance. Arresting people for exercising their rights to their property is not as unjust as killing people for their race, but it's still unjust. Perpetrators of unjust acts should not be exempt from the consequences, whether they are paid to do it or not.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Actually, they were proud of what they did, not just doing their job. FTA (chief of the investigation no less):
"Piracy, counterfeiting and other intellectual property rights violations not only cost U.S. businesses jobs and billions of dollars a year in lost revenue, they can also pose significant health and safety risks to consumers," he said.
Counterfeiting and piracy have grown in recent years in both magnitude and complexity, according to ICE. Industry and trade associations estimate that counterfeiting and piracy now cost the U.S. economy as much as $250 billion a year and a total of 750,000 American jobs.
I wonder what his source of information is. Oh the MAFIAA? Thought so. Next thing you know they're going to release videos saying it supports terrorism and child molesters.
Re:The cops that arrested him must be proud (Score:5, Insightful)
It interests me when a geek equates the enforcement arm of US customs and immigration to the SS. That his right to a hacked and modded PS3 seems to count for as much as what a prisoner lost in the Nazi death camps.
The Nuremberg defendants were charged with crimes against humanity - and, and among the specific changes, the crime of institutionalized murder on an industrial scale. That is why the defense of "just following orders" does not work. They were the ones giving the orders.
Your apologies to Godwin are fraudulent.
Re:The cops that arrested him must be proud (Score:5, Insightful)
No one accepted these arguments of "just doing my job" in the Nuremberg trials -- why should we now? (Sorry, Godwin.)
It interests me when a geek equates the enforcement arm of US customs and immigration to the SS. That his right to a hacked and modded PS3 seems to count for as much as what a prisoner lost in the Nazi death camps.
The Nuremberg defendants were charged with crimes against humanity - and, and among the specific changes, the crime of institutionalized murder on an industrial scale. That is why the defense of "just following orders" does not work. They were the ones giving the orders.
Your apologies to Godwin are fraudulent.
This is a common logical fallacy I see all the time -- that just a comparison differs in degree that the comparison is invalid. In this case, the term Nuremberg Defense is a commonly used term to refer to a specific legal/moral argument, the "I am not morally/legally responsible for the actions in question because I was just following orders."
You are creating a blatant straw man in arguing that the commenter is honestly considering a modded PS3 equal in worth to a death camp inmate, he is using a commonly accepted figure of speech.
To get more to the heart of the issue, you do have a right to a hacked and modded PS3, it is absurd that the government can get away with passing a law telling me what I can and cannot do with a piece of hardware that I own, never mind mandating a decade of jail time for it. This young man's civil rights are being violated, and EVERYONE down the line is responsible for it, from the arresting officer to the prosecuting attorney, to the jury who convicts him and the judge that sentences him, and the politicians and lobbyists that pushed through the DMCA. "Just doing my job" is NO excuse, and the legal precedent for this was set during the Nuremberg trials, that is all that is meant in the comparison.
Comment removed (Score:4, Informative)
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:The cops that arrested him must be proud (Score:5, Insightful)
Eh. Its' hard for a cop with a associates degree in CJ know that the law is wrong in the eyes of /. members. They're job is to conduct the arrest, not to determine guilt or sentencing. It's for the judge to throw out the case, for a jury to not convict, for the judge to decide the punishment, for the legislators to craft just laws and the supreme court to evaluate those laws.
Sometimes those charged with enforcement don't understand the why and wherefore. Sometimes they even... agree with the laws. Sometimes they opt to keep their jobs and pension rather than lose their job and possibly go to jail.
The fault here lies with the laws and our culture's values (specifically, valuing the rights of companies over the rights of citizens).
i get your point as a matter of a more general principle, following orders is a cheap excuse. In this case, i'm willing to let the arresting officers off the hook. We don't know what is going to happen with this case. Like others have said here, i don't want cops that pick and choose who to arrest and for what, aside from the most dire cases. Ordering a cop to shoot a shoplifter, yeah... that's wrong and all out of whack. Bringing in a kid for an investigation is hardly gross misconduct.
Re:The cops that arrested him must be proud (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The cops that arrested him must be proud (Score:4, Insightful)
All too often, they already do...
Re:The cops that arrested him must be proud (Score:5, Insightful)
Would you rather have police interpreting the laws as they see fit and only enforcing the ones they agree with?
If the law is unfair, unjust, or just plain disproportionate, then yes, I'd prefer to see the enforcers refuse to do the law's bidding.
Re:The cops that arrested him must be proud (Score:4, Insightful)
You forget the enforcers are human, and have their own idea of what is unfair, unjust, or just plain disproportionate.
If you allow that a police officer should, at his discretion, refuse to sieze a computer because he doesn't believe in the DMCA, then you accept that another officer might just refuse to enforce an anti-discrimination law.
The police have a job, and it isn't "deciding what the law should be".
Selective enforcement and prosecution (Score:5, Insightful)
Uh, they do that. There are thousands of laws. Many not enforced in practice.
If they enforced them all, they might not even get out of their neighborhood. Might be a bit like Robocop when he was loaded with hundreds of directives :).
According to the laws in Michigan, committing adultery would get you a life sentence. Seems the courts and prosecutors there are talking about repealing the relevant law. So that's selective prosecution as well.
But you know, maybe one should take a poll of betrayed spouses (and maybe even their children) and ask them what their opinion on adultery is. Do they view it as less or more negative than being mugged at gunpoint? How about being beaten up (but resulting in no broken bones or major scarring)? I won't be surprised if many of them would get over being mugged at gunpoint far more easily.
The average sentence for robbery in the 1st degree when armed with a deadly weapon (not necessarily a gun) appears to be 10 years.
http://www.cga.ct.gov/2000/rpt/olr/htm/2000-r-0510.htm [ct.gov]
Of course one has to factor in that a robber could in theory more easily rob more people than a person could commit adultery with. Perhaps a robber is a danger to more people and thus should be put in jail for longer?
Re:The cops that arrested him must be proud (Score:5, Insightful)
Would you rather have police interpreting the laws as they see fit and only enforcing the ones they agree with?
YES. Absolutely.
The law only works as a system when every single person enforcing it applies common sense to the situation. Without that injection of common sense, "law" is nothing more than tyranny and oppression.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
No, you've got that backwards.
Downloading a game ISO has only one purpose. The playing of that game, without paying for it.
Modding an Xbox, as you say yourself, allows you to run XBMC on it. A legitimate use of the hardware, which harms nobody.
Re:What's the issue here? (Score:4, Informative)
Downloading a game ISO has only one purpose. The playing of that game, without paying for it.
No, it doesn't. Optical media is delicate.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:What's the issue here? (Score:4, Informative)
this is far less of a moral grey area than downloading is.
I think you have that backwards.
downloading (as implied in your post) is specifically to avoid paying for content.
Modding an Xbox can lead to playing homebrew games, apps, and other very cool stuff that has little to nothing to do with piracy. Hell I modded countless Xbox 1's to run linux.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Aug. 21--A former Spokane Valley car dealer, who now sells used cars in Post Falls, avoided a likely prison term and a substantial fine by helping investigators unravel an international odometer rollback case. Instead of low-mileage bargains, more than 135 buyers were stuck with high-mileage Canadian imports with altered mileage gauges. For his part in the conspiracy, Richard "Rick" Shafer got no prison time Thursday, but must complete six months of home detention when he's not at work and repay a Spokane credit union $172,792.
There's another where a dealer got 10 months.
Anyway, last time I sold a car (In Indiana), when you sold the car there was a checkmark on the form where you could say that the odometer was not correct. (I knew it wasn't because it rolled around past 00000) Modifying your own odometer was perfectly legal, as was paying someone to do it, as long as you didn't sell the car as having that mileage.
Modifying game consoles isn't fraud, unless you don't tell a fut
Re:Not that disturbing (Score:5, Insightful)
You don't want to go to jail? Don't break criminal laws.
You don't want people to break criminal laws? Don't write shit laws.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Hooray (Score:4, Insightful)
The summary made some good points, but your reply contributes nothing to the discussion. I'm not sure why you were modded insightful. If you think a discussion on this topic is going to be pointless, why are you here?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
That statement does not pertain specifically to mod chips or software, but is a general statement about such goods.
Hardware, batteries, etc that are counterfeit can and have caused injury and death.
Counterfeit medicine, vitamins, and supplements have caused sickness and death.
Counterfeit toys and children's clothing contain dangerous chemicals, lead based paint, are missing flame retardants, or are made of flammable material.