Nintendo Unconcerned By Motion-Control Competitors 150
The Guardian's games blog reports on comments by Nintendo discussing why it's not worried about competition from Microsoft and Sony after their recent motion-control announcements at E3. Nintendo's Reggie Fils-Aime said, "The only thing I'll say is a rhetorical question. Is it fun? If it's fun, then I tip my hat and say, 'Well done.' But what's happening sounds to me a lot like, 'Who's got the prettiest picture. Who's got high-definition. Who has the best processing power?' It sounds like technology, when the consumer wants to be entertained. Our focus is how do we take active play and make it entertainment. And that's what we're going to continue to focus on."
It's a tech demo (Score:5, Funny)
Oh, and obligatory:
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/6/5/ [penny-arcade.com]
Huh? (Score:2)
OK, maybe I am not fully awake but I didn't get the comic strip. What am I missing for the funny part?
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Ooooooooooooh, missed that. Lame though. Thanks. :)
Games, games, games. (Score:5, Insightful)
Like with any console hardware... Games are the ultimate measure of success.
If the games are good, the hardware fades away. There are great games for all three platforms. I'm happy with my Wii so far. Was a lot cheaper than the competition when I got it, and for me the family focus is a great asset. With four controllers I can have all kids entertained at the same time in something like Mario Kart Wii, and it's not like there aren't games for more mature gamers too... (Mad World, House of the Dead Overkill, Guitar Hero, I could go on.)
There is no best or worst console out there at the moment. You should really just focus on what games you want to play and get a console or consoles based on that.
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"Like with any console hardware... Games are the ultimate measure of success."
Tell that to Sega. The Dreamcast had what was probably the best lineup of games ever assembled at a console launch and they followed it up with consistently good games. And hardware sales were great... until Sony promised the kitchen sink on the upcoming PS2. Then people stopped buying the Dreamcast and waited for the upcoming console with its own DVD player attached.
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That's of course up to perspective. I've been an avid console player my entire life, and have owned most of them (remember the Atari Lynx? yeah, that one too). But when the Dreamcast came out I waited quite awhile before buying one, about midway through it's life. Why? None of the games at launch made me care at all. Perhaps that's one of the real problems the Dreamcast had, despite the vocal, the majority of gamers just weren't finding that much to play on it.
And the PS2 kind of proves Nintendo's poi
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It's ironic that you mentioned the DVD player. Really, it was one of the reasons that the PS2 was so successful. I remember people were buying the things for watching movies alone.
Years later, PS3 comes out with Bluray and it nearly kills Sony. They had huge losses last year. People aren't flocking to Bluray like they did with DVDs.
More interesting though is: what will happen next generation? Will there be another disc format beyond Bluray, or is it all digital from here on out? Sony has used their cons
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Sega had other issues- after the Sega CD->32x->Saturn debacle we had no reason to trust that it would continue to support the Dreamcast. I got burned enough on the Sega CD to never buy a Sega console again.
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Project natal (Score:3, Interesting)
While technologically impressive I have one problem with it, missing force feedback control and no additional controllers outside of behaviors. I cannot see this thing going anywhere except for some sports (especially fitness) games without it.
The sony technology was very close to nintendo however, but there at least force feedback probably will be possible, but additional fine grained controls like nintendo has it on the wiimote also still are missing but could be added theoretically!
However Nintendo should be worried, because of the lack of HD support and their absymal performance in the games area 2008 (which slowly is changing this year).
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Force feedback is a hack.
It was designed to try and help immerse people in games better but within the limitation that you still had to use a controller.
The whole idea of Natal is moving beyond the controller, immersing people in the game by allowing them to interact directly. Will it work? I have no idea, but to suggest force feedback is important to something like this (hell, Sony didn't even think it was important to their normal controllers but the PS3 still sold well) misses the point of what Natal is
Re:Project natal (Score:4, Insightful)
Force feedback is a hack.
Not really more than 3D graphics are a hack.
It was designed to try and help immerse people in games better but within the limitation that you still had to use a controller.
Ditto for 3D graphics. Help immerse people in games better within the limitation that you still have to look at a screen.
Similiar force feedback is trying to compensate for the fact that that you can't feel anything from the game world... when a rocket explodes, when your car crashes, when your jet is starting to stall, when you take a punch, when you foul a ball... force feedback can't (and in some cases [car crash] shouldn't be entirely realistic, but it helps. I like the way Need For Speed gives you different feedback for different driving surfaces... and how you can actually feel your tires start to skip as you make a tight turn. This is genuinely useful feedback on top of the audio and visual feedback.
The whole idea of Natal is moving beyond the controller, immersing people in the game by allowing them to interact directly.
You can't really interact directly without a sense of touch.
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May I direct you here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw [youtube.com]
To see that you can increase the level of immersion without the need for holding a controller that provides force feedback?
Force feedback and 3D graphics cater to the idea that a game world is still something displayed on a flat screen and interacted with only via the controller. As the above demo shows, there are better ways to interact with the game world than simply by playing around with a controller using your hands.
Natal will be able to
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Just for the record, some Sony engineer had a techdemo of head tracking up and running a year or so ago. So it seems easy enough to add to Sonys solution. And with that out of the way I don't see much of Natal being left that is useful for hardcore gaming. When both your hands grab the 360 controller, you can't do all that much gesturing. So unless Microsoft comes up with an additional split controller, Natal seems rather limited.
whilst it can have similar applications
The crux is that Natal can't do a lot of what Nintendo and Sonys solutions can
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I don't really see what it can't do?
Again, the important thing to realise with Natal is that it doesn't exclude the use of additional peripherals, but it does open up new doors on top of that. I think you're making the mistake of many others in thinking that Natal is just a camera, it's not, it's a system capable of full blown motion tracking in 3D space which means you can in fact just point at things.
Effectively you can still produce peripherals like light guns, but they needn't contain any electronics an
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I don't really see what it can't do?
Wrist detection, exact detection of button presses, pointing and so on. Basically everything that matters. To take a step back: The way humans consciously interact with the world is for most part just with their hands, while your arms and legs and rest of the body follow more or less automatically, you simply don't think much about them when you move around. What Natal does is putting a heavy emphasis on detecting your arms and legs, i.e. all those things that work automatically, while ignoring the hands th
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"Wrist detection, exact detection of button presses, pointing and so on. Basically everything that matters. To take a step back: The way humans consciously interact with the world is for most part just with their hands, while your arms and legs and rest of the body follow more or less automatically, you simply don't think much about them when you move around. What Natal does is putting a heavy emphasis on detecting your arms and legs, i.e. all those things that work automatically, while ignoring the hands t
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Hmm, I'm not really sure what else to say about this as it's simply wrong.
I like how people make baseless claims. Look at the elephant silhouette demo, detection is not precise enough for real detail. None of the demos have shown finger detection, not even their advertisment video which was all a made up future-vision to begin. How do you think it can do finger detection?
It's been pointed out quite clearly that Natal and work all the way down to hands and fingers,
Where? Source please.
I'm not sure what more can be said. It can work with again 48 key joints
Its 48 *points* not joints, which doesn't really tell us much, because you might need multiple points to reconstruct a joint from the data.
I'm guessing you only saw a few tech demos?
I have seen all of them and all of them support my c
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"Where? Source please."
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/technologybrierdudleysblog/2009296568_e3_new_info_on_microsofts_nata.html [nwsource.com]
http://kotaku.com/5279531/microsoft-project-natal-can-support-multiple-players-see-fingers [kotaku.com]
"Its 48 *points* not joints, which doesn't really tell us much, because you might need multiple points to reconstruct a joint from the data."
Sorry yes to be pedantic you're correct, but of course interest points aren't redundant, you wouldn't have two on the same arm for example, you may
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Apart from recognising exactly those motions as we've been through over and over here?
Where is the golf game that demonstrates that? Where is the tennis game? Where is the detection of wrist movement? I repeat: *NONE* of the demos showed any of that. And the elephant silhouette demo makes it very unlikely that the precision for that is there (have you even looked at that?). Ricochet doesn't show hand detection either, it simply shows a half open hand the whole time, no movement of individual fingers. I welcome a link to a video that actually shows hand and finger movement, I am still waiting
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Yes, that's what most fanboys tell themselves too. That it's always the other person. It doesn't matter how much evidence, how many resources the other person can provide to back up their claims, the fanboy doesn't need to do the same, all they have to do is speculate in return because they're right.
Come back with some actual evidence, and you might have a point, until then, all you're doing is speculating, guessing and outright making things up.
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Come back with some actual evidence, and you might have a point, until then, all you're doing is speculating, guessing and outright making things up.
You don't get it. You are the one claiming that Natal can do something that isn't shown in a single demo. I don't believe you because I have seen nothing that shows finger detection, thats all.
Lets try something else: Lets just assume for a moment that all Natal can do is arm and leg detection. Now go back and watch all the tech demos and the product vision videos again. Which of those demos would be impossible to produce with just arm and leg detection? Name one and you might have a point.
It would also be
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"Lets try something else: Lets just assume for a moment that all Natal can do is arm and leg detection. Now go back and watch all the tech demos and the product vision videos again. Which of those demos would be impossible to produce with just arm and leg detection? Name one and you might have a point."
You mean like the Burnout one where he uses just his foot to accelerate?
You're still making shit up even, I've not suggested ricochet and paint detect fingers, I'm pointing out that they detect wrist movement
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You mean like the Burnout one where he uses just his foot to accelerate?
Try again. You use your leg to accelerate, not the foot, listen to the voice right at the start of this video [youtube.com]. You can find the same info in other sources. No foot detection, just which leg is forward determines if you break or accelerate. Which again, confirms my point.
If you could at least explain why you don't think anything other than leg and arm recognition is possible even though it's demonstrated right in front of you
It hasn't been demonstrated (neutral hand position != detection) and the elephant silhouette demo shows a clear lack of precision (which you continue to ignore).
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Again, have you seen the actual promotional demos showing it in use in actual games rather than just the tech demos? Have a look here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oACt9R9z37U [youtube.com]
"Product vision: Actual features and functionality may vary."
Though I must admit, this video does also demonstrate that Natal is psychic as well, since the dinosaur at about 1:20 starts moving AHEAD of the kid.
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So you say realism is improved because you cannot feel things!
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No, realism is improved because you can directly interact with things rather than having to be forced to go through an external device that bears no resemblance to how you interact in real life. You do not have a weird shaped device with buttons in your hand (well, maybe you do, but I'd hope not) when you go and talk to people, when you fire a gun, when you play football and so on.
That's quite a big difference.
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Sony have released Dual Shock controllers for the PS3 now, they couldn't release them at first because of a patent lawsuit AFAIK.
Anyway, force feedback is a different thing from simple vibration/'rumble pack' type stuff. It would be impossible to do force feedback on full body movement unless you are wearing some kind of suit or are being moved around by robotic arms etc :P Only joysticks and steering wheels do force feedback; joypads, mice, etc just rumble.
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I think regarding the patent lawsuit that probably was the real reason. Microsoft had the same issue but simply paid for a patent license so, so I think there is some truth in what Sony said that they as a company didn't feel any kind of feedback was important - but not simply that it wasn't important, just that they didn't feel it was important enough to pay the license for it I guess.
You're right about forcefeedback too, it really is just rumble as you say. I still actually have my old force feedback stic
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Yeah there haven't been many interesting space or flight sims in the last few years. It's definitely one of the major oversights in the current PS3 catalogue of games at least. I hope Elite IV doesn't go the way of Duke Nukem Forever..
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Yeah, certainly. Ideally we'd have props for everything - an M16 that actually feels like it's firing for example to shoot at the screen using a natal style system to allow you to duck, take cover, reload etc. The problem is of course how you'd ever go about implementing that without having all sorts of crap cluttered around your house for each and every different game.
Re:Project natal (Score:5, Insightful)
In other words, they shouldn't be worried. Most people don't understand or care about HD. I'm sure you've seen people buying huge TVs and then connecting them with composite cables to their DVD player. They're happy about it too.
Nintendo is still selling at more than 50% market share (even though total market share is not quite there yet), and they keep breaking PS2's sales records. The Wii is doing fine.
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I think the biggest issue with Natal will be detection accuracy and lack of buttons/joysticks. So far everything we have seen of Natal shows that it can only detect arms and legs, but not feet, hand or wrist movement. This means that the control will be really limited in what it can do, i.e. everything that requires the use of a "tool" (tenis, golf, FPS, etc.) won't work properly, as there is no way for Natal to figure out how exactly you are holding the tool. Same goes for lack of buttons and joysticks, be
If this is about what the consumer wants... (Score:5, Interesting)
Anyway, where are the good wii games anyway? I walk through the store and look at the Wii releases, and it feels like I'm in the kids section. Not that there is anything wrong with that, I guess. There is no reason not to offer them if that's what your consumers want, but why Nintendo (not Nintendo in Japan apparently) won't you release your high quality games over here? Will it ruin your family system image that for whatever reason you're doing your best to keep? It still makes no sense, there are already other more violent games out there!
Yeah yeah, the internationalization process... Tecmo has not had an issue, like I ranted earlier with the previous 3, and they were interested in having the 4th come out! Why is Nintendo sitting on it's hands? Why is Nintendo sitting on it's hands when people are willing to give them money? Especially when they have a couple of gems just sitting in their laps! They have so few 3rd party developers making quality games [most will max out their gfx capability on the PS3 or 360, at least when it comes to the AAA class titles, and many get exclusive with a certain console, Nintendo cannot afford not to support it's few quality 3rd party developers!
There's a petition to get the game moving forward [I guess to show there is potential for sales]. I guess I should go sign up for it.... actually I forgot which one I saw first, there's at least 6 going on out there! so I won't link any specific one...
Well I guess if they don't want to compete, and earn money, eventually economics will catch up with them. The NES/Super NES will remain the period in their legacy I guess. Minus the few gems out the 64 crowd, it has really gone downhill for Nintendo. I can't think of a spectacular game since the gamecube came out. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Point being I think they should be marketing everything they have, unless they realize, that they are really just shoveling garbageware for the first few years, and only plan on releasing decent games after that phase has passed [if there were the must have games, people would not bother with the junk, at least most wouldn't.]
Final warning to Nintendo: Compete or die. It's the law of economics... Unless you're GM...
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Final warning to Nintendo: Compete or die. It's the law of economics... Unless you're GM...
I think that there are plenty of indications that Nintendo competes just fine, thank you very much. Have you read http://lostgarden.com/2005/09/nintendos-genre-innovation-strategy.html [lostgarden.com]? It's just a true today as it was four years ago.
Re:If this is about what the consumer wants... (Score:4, Informative)
Stop sitting on quality games that have been released in Japan and release them elsewhere! I'm still waiting on fatal frame for the wii, and won't be buying another Nintendo game until I can purchase that! Tecmo hasn't had a problem releasing the other 3, and the sales have not been that bad in the states/Europe. UGH, I guess I'm still jaded that they're holding onto a shiny that I want, and am willing to part with money for.
Anyway, where are the good wii games anyway? I walk through the store and look at the Wii releases, and it feels like I'm in the kids section. Not that there is anything wrong with that, I guess. There is no reason not to offer them if that's what your consumers want, but why Nintendo (not Nintendo in Japan apparently) won't you release your high quality games over here? Will it ruin your family system image that for whatever reason you're doing your best to keep? It still makes no sense, there are already other more violent games out there!
The main issue is that there is an overpresence of kids games on the shelves while others clearly exist.
Okami, Tenchu Shadow Assassins, MadWorld, Godfather Blackhand Edition, Resi4, Metroid, Okami, Sam and Max, Strong Bad, Excite Truck, Excite Bugs, Indiana Jones and the Staff of Kings, Red Steel, Disaster Day of Crisis, Endless Ocean, No More Heroes and many others I probably can dig up none of them I would call a kids game. The games are there, but if a Barby whatever game sells more all the sovelware gets the space!
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That's a nice list of games that a mature demographic can play, but most of them suck. Okami is good. I haven't played Metroid yet. Comparing that list to what is available for the other systems (or the PC) is laughable though. The developers (and even Nintendo themselves) are just not putting money into developing good Wii games.
I essentially bought my Wii because I assumed a great boxing game would have to come out within a few years. There have been a few but they were awful. This is partially because
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Actually of the entire List I personlly think just Red Steel sucks, and the reason for it is that I hate shooters, I think the rest of games are pretty good!
But I see the Wii as good addition to the PC which I play mostly!
That and Wiimote gimicks (Score:2)
There seems to be the idea, and I don't know if Nintendo promotes it or if it happens on its own, that since the Wii has the motion tracking controller, that you have to use it. The problem is, some games are poorly suited for it, so it ends up being a real gimmick. One of the best examples I can think of is the Zelda game. Now it made good use of the basic Wiimote function in that you could use it to point at things on the screen for mouse-link menu control. Good idea, a mouse interface is rather nice for
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Not sure how the attach rate is, but I have about 20 games for the Wii on the shelve, and about 10 in the virtual console!
But last year I played mostly PC partially because not too many interesting things came out. This year seems to be better however with a few games in the line which really interest me!
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From what I read the FF4 release got cancelled because Nintendo demanded some changes to the crappy control scheme and a ton of bugfixes before they'd release it in the west (e.g. the flashlight wasn't pointed with the IR system but with a weird analog stick and remote tilt control scheme) and Tecmo refused to do them. The reviews of the Japanese version were very critical of the controls and general buggyness so that seems to be a major issue.
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Are you retarded? Have you lived under a rock for the last couple of years?
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Hardcore gaming is not their market anymore. Look at the DS and its sales. Then look at the number of sales of games considered high learning curve and games like brain age and nintendogs.
They are competing... on a diferent market. If you are like me and those "casual" type games dont amuse you then Nintendo is no longer for you.
You've got to be kidding ... the DS has like 7 billion games available, covering pretty much every imaginable genre in great depth.
Sure there are vast quantities of "brain age" and "kanji master 10" type games, but there are vast quantities of every type of game on the DS....
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Hardcore gaming is not their market anymore. Look at the DS and its sales. Then look at the number of sales of games considered high learning curve and games like brain age and nintendogs.
They are competing... on a diferent market. If you are like me and those "casual" type games dont amuse you then Nintendo is no longer for you.
You've got to be kidding ... the DS has like 7 billion games available, covering pretty much every imaginable genre in great depth.
Sure there are vast quantities of "brain age" and "kanji master 10" type games, but there are vast quantities of every type of game on the DS....
Yes but the main problem with the DS as well is the overpresence of kids games on the store shelves, for every
adult game are 10 pony games and 20 disney movie tie ins. It seems that those games simply sell on the Nintendo consoles!
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the main problem with the DS as well is the overpresence of kids games
Considering that adult gamers are vastly outnumbered by children, why is this a surprise? Nintendo did not fall for the BS concept of the "adult gamer" which has translated to big losses for MS and Sony's loss of it's lock on the #1 position in new console sales.
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Well the main problem of Adult gamer in my opinion is that it gathers only to the 15-22 age crowd, which means pointless violence and no substance!
What the industry understands as adult gamer should be labeled late teen male crowd!
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You've got to be kidding ... the DS has like 7 billion games available, covering pretty much every imaginable genre in great depth.
Sure there are vast quantities of "brain age" and "kanji master 10" type games, but there are vast quantities of every type of game on the DS....
Yes but the main problem with the DS as well is the overpresence of kids games on the store shelves, for every adult game are 10 pony games and 20 disney movie tie ins.
I don't get that impression at all -- while there are certainly are lots of games aimed at kids, there doesn't seem to be any really dominant genre on the DS; it covers most of them pretty well. Given that it's a portable system, of course, there probably are more quick pick-up-and-go type of games than on TV consoles.
Granted, game stores near you may be different than game stores near me; maybe near you, there are simply lots of kids with DSes, and the stores stock accordingly. [I live in Japan, which p
Sony's offering rocks (Score:5, Insightful)
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm the most excited about the motion-controls that Sony demoed. Just check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiX-26VL4bM [youtube.com]
It's hard not to be impressed by the demonstration of what gamers have been dying to be able to do for ages now: true 1:1 positional tracking, a sword and shield in-game, PERFECT.
So, in my mind, Sony's got the lead on next gen just from that. Falling to last place has actually done some good in this case, it made Sony try.
Behind Sony I'll place Nintendo. They need to up the ante for the next gen, but we can almost guarantee they'll have at least a decent offering, of not totally cutting edge, and that's fine. Sony may once against price themselves out of the market and make a horribly complex console--time will tell, but we know Nintendo won't make that mistake.
Then there's Microsoft, with their faked Lionhead / Milo demo. The controller without a controller? It had better be perfect, or they're sunk.
Lastly, we're all still waiting for someone to show off the final kicker: Johnny Lee style head-tracking for simulated 3d: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw)
Whoever can pull that out of their hat AND positional input will capture the public's imagination. Can't wait for the next gen :)
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In reality Nintendo has already launched Wii MotionPlus, they have completed software ready to launch and 3rd parties have already launched games which use Wii MotionPlus. Now Nintendo can focus on making a control scheme for their next software, and they have tons of experience with motion controls.
Sony is just playing catch up for now.
Oops, for their next hardware I mean (Score:2)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acND4sO3pJs [youtube.com]
Looks pretty damn 1:1 to me. Where Sony is now is about where Nintendo's tech demos were 1 year ago.
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Its much closer to 1:1 then the Wiimote alone, but it still can't measure its absolute position in space like Sonys solution. If you look closely in the above video you will see that he never actually moves the remote completly freely through space. The remote is completly invisible till he starts a swing motion and once done it disappears again. This is due to the Wiimote not having a way to measure its position in space, all it can do is dead reckoning from a given predefined starting point and judging fr
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You could be right, but there's no proof. That was just an early demo, and the fact that they show it that way doesn't mean they couldn't keep tracking its position.
Of course the IR can be used to know the actual position in space (together with the Wii remote sensors and Wii MotionPlus), but that won't work when the remote is not facing the sensor bar. In reality though, it's probably close enough to 1:1 for most games. More importantly, we can already play with it, whereas the competition's motion control
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You could be right, but there's no proof.
The proof is simple: There is no data to detect the absolute position. Even the IR bar won't help, as two IR points aren't enough, in theory it could work with a new sensorbar that uses four points instead of two, which the Wiimote can detect, but that would be far out speculation and Nintendo has announced nothing of that sort.
Or to put it another way: I believe it when I see it. When no demo or game uses a feature, there is a good chance it doesn't exist. Well, most of the time anyway, the DS has a pressu
Re:rbarreira is an idiot (Score:5, Informative)
Actually invensense (the company behind the Wii sensors) has stated absolute position and orientation is possible by combining the IR with accelerometers and gyroscopes (i.e. MotionPlus):
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2008/08/wii-motion-sensor.ars [arstechnica.com]
Six axis meaning six degrees of freedom, i.e. absolute positioning and orientation.
There's a lot of information if you combine these three things together... The gyroscopes give you angles, the IR gives you the distance from the TV and the accelerometers can help to improve the accuracy of the previous measurements.
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Six axis meaning six degrees of freedom, i.e. absolute positioning and orientation.
Well, yeah, but as the LiveMove2 video has shown that is still only a relative position and it is only precise for a few seconds or so.
Knowing how many axis the thing has, doesn't really tell you how precise the results are or for how long they will be useful till you need to reset/recalibrate. And the distance from the IR sensor also only works as long as you are pointing straight at it, as soon as you are sitting at an angle things get troublesome.
When I see a demo or a game that shows absolute position d
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Er, I think you may be a little biased.
You attack Microsoft's offering, and then talk about your most wanted thing being head tracking which is exactly what Natal is capable of and the other two aren't? What's more, it can do it without the need for something to be attached to your head.
What makes you think the Lionhead demo was faked? Sure the kid wasn't actually understanding and interpreting what was being said to him, AI isn't that advanced and wont be any time soon. It certainly seemed to be able to ma
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This video [youtube.com] nicely shows why the Milo demo was faked. That said, I agree that the tech behind it might real, as its really not that special (bolt voice regonition on something like Facade and you pretty much have it).
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Well no, again you're making things up. It doesn't show that the demo was faked, because being faked suggests that the whole thing is essentially a non-interactive video, yet clearly the water situation where her image is shown from the camera and rendered onto the water debunks that.
All that YouTube video does is back up my point that the responses and actions are entirely scripted, but that this doesn't detract from the fact those scripted actions are occuring in response to real input.
You'd have to be an
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It doesn't show that the demo was faked,
So you believe that the game features a totally weird perspective that makes no sense when you stand in front of the TV?
yet clearly the water situation where her image is shown from the camera and rendered onto the water debunks that.
Actor in front of the TV doing motion, everything else is inserted in post production.
I am not even sure why you try to argue that. I never claimed that the technology behind the demo was fake, that might very well be real or at least close to the demo. But the demo video is certainly not authentic and has been tempered with.
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"So you believe that the game features a totally weird perspective that makes no sense when you stand in front of the TV?"
It's not a game, it's a tech demo, it's scripted to look good which from the camera angle they chose to record from such that they can capture the system and the person using it it does actually look good and it works.
"Actor in front of the TV doing motion, everything else is inserted in post production."
Oh including the dynamic water effect which would be pointless anyway because it's m
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Why are you arguing about the graphics and rendering? There's nothing new there, that's not what the Natal / Milo demo was all about.
Here's the one and sole true test of whether the Milo demo was fake: Was the game being run live and actually responding to the inputs of the actor in real-time, with all of the footage seen generated uniquely and in real-time for that demo,
-or-
was the actor miming inputs that the game wasn't actually recognizing and reacting to, and trying to match them up to a pre-recorded v
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I should add to my other post by the way, that whilst what the video says is true - that to an observer looking at the screen the character would not be looking at them, it ignores the other dimension, that when you have another observer, observing the observer and the character on screen it would not then appear as if the character was looking at the initial observer as it does in their demo. It thus makes sense that they did it this way to give a better impression for the demo that the character is lookin
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This is the problem with conspiracy theories,
Where is the conspiracy theory? You admit yourself that the demo doesn't show genuine gameplay, but something build up for marketing purposes. If they tempered in post production or with the 3d projection matrix or whatever doesn't make much of a difference, as neither of which turns it into actual real gameplay footage.
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No one ever said it shows real gameplay footage, it's just supposed to show what is possible. If it was really gameplay footage we could expect it to come out for Christmas, but we know it's still in testing and a lot further off than that.
Tech demos have never been about showing off real gameplay footage, they're there to show off the technology and what it's potential is.
Providing we accept scripting as the mechanism for story telling and NPC responses then there's no reason it couldn't be gameplay footag
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I'm actually more a Nintendo fanboy than anything. And I like Microsoft better than Sony, thus the lead of my comment being amazed that I'm advocating the Sony solution. In this case, I'm just plain impressed with Sony's motion controls. They are a perfect solution, and that blasts through my prejudices.
Natal does do head-tracking, but won't be able to do fine-grained implement tracking like Sony's. And none of them do head-tracking based pseudo 3D like the Johnny Lee head-tracking demo I linked. If you had
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No, that's the point Natal can in fact do that because it can track your eyes in relation to the screen - it's not just a single 2D camera, it has the ability to track in 3D space which means it can adjust what is rendered depending on where you on in relation to the screen.
Natal doesn't just record silhouttes like previous offerings such as the XBox Live vision camera and the eye toy, it does full blown 3D tracking which allows for exactly the sort of things in Johnny Lee's demo and as someone else pointed
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No kidding, you mean it derives 3D space from stereoscopic-placed cameras? No, I had no idea. Why are you assuming I'm an idiot?
Tracking the eyes does nothing, it's only your head moving that makes for pseudo-3D. And yes, Johnny Lee is working for MS, and technically this system is capable of JL-style head-tracking 3D.
SO WHY WASN'T IT SHOWN??? Not shown, thus it fails to impress.
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Er, in your previous post you said it's not capable of it, now you agree it is.
No need to get defensive, your comments are inconsistent as a result. It is possible to change your mind and agree with someone without getting uptight about it.
Johnny Lee is working on Natal (Score:4, Informative)
Your post is a bit funny considering that Microsoft has actually contracted Johnny Lee to work on Natal.
Check it out: http://procrastineering.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]
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Natal, as demonstrated at E3 via Milo, does not feature the kind of pseudo-3D that Johnny Lee popularized.
Watch the video and then you'll know what I'm talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw [youtube.com]
So, he may be working with them, but he's probably frustrated right now--or working on it in secret for a later reveal. In any case, I don't believe that Natal can replicate Sony's Sword and Shield demo. I'm also worried about the price of the Natal app. Natal seems to be an attempt to incorporate old-
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Not for cat people (Score:5, Funny)
Project Natal adds a new dimension for your cat to bother you while playing games.
Nintendo should be concerned (Score:2)
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The difference between Nintendo and the rest is that Nintendo has a complete solution, they not only have the hardware, but also the games that make use of it. Both Microsoft and Sony have little to none in that area, they have only the hardware, but not the game concepts to make use of it.
Or to put it another way: People go out and buy a Wii because it has Wii Sports, not because the Wiimote has theoretical potential to be useful for future games. At the moment nothing that Sony or Microsoft has shown has
And Nintendo also stated this as a P.S..... (Score:4, Insightful)
P.S. Nanny nanny boo boo we had the cool technology before you did.
Seriously, we wouldn't be even talking about the wii if it didn't have the cool technology controls. Without that, many of their games would be re-hashed old ones, or not even possible.
So it's all about entertainment - once you have the technology. And don't think that Nintendo isn't ALSO working on the technology aspect of it.
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I don't know.. I think the tech sells the console pretty well. I just played a Wii just a week ago for the first time. It was cool! I played a bowling game, and it was fun. Was the bowling game that great? No... it was the Wii controller that made it fun.
I get your point though, it's a fine line. I think making that technology work allowed developers to think of simple games like bowling in a whole new light. Wii fit? Very cool game (saw my friend's kids playing it). You wouldn't be able to pull th
Oh really? (Score:2)
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Considering that Nintendo has been consistently outselling everyone else by big margins, maybe the ratings aren't that valid? You can't really make a good argument that the Wii is just a fad at this point, you can't realistically argue that it's just cruising on hype. People are still buying lots of their stuff, and they're buying it because it's fun to them.
It's been said before, but Nintendo has expanded the realm of people that they're targeting as customers. Those people are often different from the typ
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Considering that Nintendo has been consistently outselling everyone else by big margins, maybe the ratings aren't that valid?
Nintendo's releases certainly have sold well, and are very highly rated. Other games on the Wii, not so much [kotaku.com].
So this would kind of put the lie to "they are poorly rated but sell well because reviewers just don't understand." Nope, the poorly rated games sell poorly. The highly rated games sell, errr, highly. And these highly rated games are few, and primarily from Nintendo.
My point remains: "Reggie, get the overall quality of your system together." I could be wrong, but I don't think the myth of
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Averages aren't good for much. The only game to outscore the top Wii game is GTA4 -- a game which a huge number of people complain was overrated because all the reviewers gave it 100, but the actual gameplay was sorta okay.
Perhaps more importantly, try looking at the best games [b]in each genre[/b].
Sony and MS have a ton of highly ranked shooters, racers, and sports games, plus a couple adventure games.
Nintendo has RPGs, platformers, puzzle games, shooters, racers, sports games, adventure games, and more -
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Nintendo has RPGs, platformers, puzzle games, shooters, racers, sports games, adventure games, and more -- and they have good games of all those types.
To name a few on the PS3 (I'm sure the 360 has its own).
PS3 RPGS: Valkyria Chronicles, Oblivion, Fallout 3, Enchanted Arms.
PS3 Puzzle games: flOw, Echochrome, LocoRoco.
PS3 Adventure games: Wii has one 9.0 game, Zack and Wiki. PS3 has one 9.0 game, Folklore.
PS3 Platformer: Yes, this is Nintendo's forte. And for someone solely into that, I would recommend a Wii.
I'm glad you enjoy your Wii, good for you. But saying there's not a hint of a contest when you are apparently completely unfamiliar with t
Wii had the cool controller but sucky games (Score:2)
For this generation, the Wii had the cool controller and the well priced console but the crappiest games (as somebody else pointed out, the Wii section in any games store looks like the kiddies area).
With the other console manufacturers moving towards a sensible stance in terms of price (clearly the Heads of Sony's and Microsoft's Console divisions where smoking something extra strong when they thought that doubling the price of their consoles for this generation would be a smart move) and now coming up wit
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And thats why nintendo kicks the crap out of the competition every generation.
:D Who just don't get it.
Because they rely on making FUN games ppl want to play.
And not just having the latest greatest technology metoo buzzwords in their product.
They win because they're not trying to win. Or even compete with the other offerings.
Thats sure gotta piss off ms and sony tho.
Yup! They win every single one. Except the last two where Sony did, of course...
They rely on making fun games, completely different from every other company who makes games as little fun as humanly possible.
They don't rely on technology buzzwords, such as revolutionary motion controls.
And of course, they are certainly not competing with their direct competitors. This explains how they're not trying to win, since without competition there isn't anything to win. Which surely pisses off Sony and
Define win. (Score:2)
Yup! They win every single one. Except the last two where Sony did, of course...
Units shipped != profitability. If your video game division takes huge financial losses despite outselling your competitors, you still lose, unless you are building some serious goodwill like Microsoft was trying with the original Xbox. If one ignores currency fluctuation, Nintendo has never lost money in a single quarter. And the Wii is still printing money [ytmnd.com].
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See, your problem is you're approaching this from a logical, analytical perspective when you should be coming in with a predermined conclusion and purile fanaticism. You've got to be a team player - for the RIGHT team!
So you wanted to know my team affiliation (Score:2)
You've got to be a team player - for the RIGHT team!
Slashdot has trained me to fight for free software developers and other "little guys". So until Nintendo embraces microISVs, which it hasn't [pineight.com], I'm a team player for the PC team.
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And thats why nintendo kicks the crap out of the competition every generation.
The Playstation and Playstation 2 would like a word with you.
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The big problem for the Wii is that pretty much only Nintendo makes good games for it.
I just recently purchased punchout and I think probably 95% of my current Wii game library are first party Nintendo titles.
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Re:DUH... (Score:4, Informative)
I'm lazy and just reposting an earlier comment, the gist is that Wii has fairly good attach rate, and great software sales when the lower rate is multiplied by the higher install base. Also that even with the game cube Nintendo was one of the largest software publishers world wide, in spite of the low install base. The company kicks the crap out of others in the sense that is makes huge amounts of cash, and that is the job of a corporation. Oh yeah, it starts out as a DS apologist, but does use real numbers too.
I have not played a single DS game where the touch screen is a gimmick, it is almost always unused (e.g. Mario Cart DS), and alternate control method that may or may not be better (e.g. advanced wars), or a fantastic edition (e.g. tap for backup item in NSMB). The Wiimote is a different story though often it is used as a very fun gimmick.
As for attach rates:
http://vgchartz.com/aweekly.php [vgchartz.com] [vgchartz.com]
This is the American charts, it has the attach-rate at about the same as the PS3 and lower than the 360, of course arguments can be made to drop the Nintendo one by 1 or 2, it is still pretty fricken high in raw numbers of sales. If you subtract out 1 from the attach-rate (for Wii Sports) you end up with 150 million to XBOX 360's 170 Million, and PS3s 70 million. This is in the most 360 heavy region (North America).
Where Nintendo really makes their money though is software. Taking out Wii-play and Wii-sports they still sell more than EA on many weeks, and without licensing fees. Nintendo dominates in total money in the industry by such a huge amount that it isn't even funny. As far as the games industry goes Nintendo is a shrewd company, that is miles ahead of the rest.
Even with the Came Cube they were a major publisher by raw numbers, this is competing against companies selling for XBOX, PS2, and Computers.
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Right now, they're winning on hardware sold, but losing on the software side with the lowest attach rate of the generation, because everyone's playing Wii Sports, and apparently not much else on the console.
Your data must be old. PS3 fell behind Wii for attach rate a while back.
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Yeah, unlike the PS3 and 360, whose proponents *never* mention their HD resolutions, processing power, or storage capacity.
--Jeremy
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Nintendo won this gen by basically selling consoles to the casual crowd, given them simplistic, easy to digest games, tossing the occasional first party epic along the way. Minigame collections sell the console, which when combined with expensive accessories, a cheep hardware cost
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Le Stick [gamespy.com] from early 1980's.
Strange how wireless controllers took so long to become popular in the market.