First North American OpenMoko/FreeRunners Arrive

holdenkarau writes "The North American OpenMoko FreeRunners are starting to arrive. It would appear that the OpenMoko still has problems with some 3G networks, including AT&T. Although, in my own personal completely unscientific test, 2 out of 3 AT&T SIM cards worked. Check out the unboxing of a complete FreeRunner (along with debug board) and my experience getting the FreeRunner up and running. Or a direct link to the pictures for those of you bored with text. If you feel brave enough to take the plunge, you can buy your own FreeRunner from the OpenMoko store."

Pictures

[Deltaspectre]

Take them OF the phone, not WITH the phone!

Re:

[Hannes2000]

now that would be impossible, the neo freerunner comes without a camera.

Re:

[Hannes2000]

okay, I just realized that even if the freerunner had a built-in camera this would be impossible...

touch the glass to be sure...

[azzuth]

In soviet russia, mirror takes pictures of you!

Re:Pictures

[holdenkarau]

Take them OF the phone, not WITH the phone!

The phone actually has no camera, so the pictures were taken with a kodak digital camera. I'm not very good at takeing pictures I'll admit.

Re:

[jpellino]

i suspect there is an actual macro button on that camera - it looks like a small flower.

and tilt the unit slightly and you'll stop taking pictures of yourself taking pictures.

unless of course you're the guy in the ebay tea kettle pic...

Re:

[holdenkarau]

Oh sad. Well you can read the post and then you only have to look at one picture.

Re:

[hritcu]

I agree, the pictures are really horrible.

I was about to order one

[jacquesm]

When I realized it did not have a camera. While a hackable phone has immense appeal having to lug around a second phone or camera is really too much a of a hassle. Oh well, we'll just wait for release II I guess.

Re:I was about to order one

[lymond01]

Oddly, a lack of a camera may give something like this a push into certain businesses where cameras are not allowed on the premises.

Re:

[jo7hs2]

I totally agree. When I bought my last phone I was observing a lot of trials, and cameraphones were not allowed in several of the courthouses, for security reasons, but also because you could take pictures of the jury. I had to search out a cameraless phone, which forced me to buy an overpriced older model, because it was quite literally the only cameraless phone AT&T had in stock. It wasn't that I needed my phone in the courthouse, but rather that I didn't want to make the walk to my car without it.

Re:

[Hijacked Public]

I don't find it a toy feature at all, I think it is the most elegant solution to browsing the web, maps, photos, etc. on a small screen I've seen yet.

Since the Freerunner's screen is smaller, and from the screenshots it looks like more of its space is taken up by administrative junk, there might not be enough room to pinch/unpinch anyway.

Get both release 1 AND 2 when it's ready

[rekrutacja]

Waiting for second release is a good way to kick a company out of the market. I understand this desire for some businesses, but with Freerunner and OpenMoko you do want this second release to happen, right? So buy this release, and than buy the second when it's ready.

Re:

[jacquesm]

that's a really good point, I had not thought about it from that angle.

Re:Get both release 1 AND 2 when it's ready

[TheRaven64]

Which is why the lack of the camera and 3G is a huge problem. I'd be happy to pay slightly over market value for a phone with an open software stack, but only if it's an upgrade. My current phone is almost three years old now. It has 3G, works for Internet access from my laptop via Bluetooth and has a 2M pixel camera. Trading it in for one with only GPRS (getting off GPRS having been the reason for my last phone upgrade) and no camera is just not going to happen. My next upgrade is likely to be to HSPDA and something with enough flash for my music collection, and I'd really like it to be based on an open stack, but if they are going to build products based on three of four generation old technology and price them in the premium segment then it's really hard to justify buying them.

Re:

[Ilgaz]

They should concentrate on Bluetooth camera support. E.g. my Nokia 9300 (Symbian S80) doesn't have camera but has some excellent bluetooth camera support so you can use an actual bt enabled camera when you need.

Wonder why they didn't provide Camera as optional add on. (Sony) Ericsson T68 had that kind of wonder. You plug add on camera if you want to take photos, remove and leave it at home if you don't need. Best of both Worlds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Ericsson_T68i [wikipedia.org]

Re:I was about to order one

[Simonics Zsolt]

They are "good enough" for a lot of things.

Re:

[quantumplacet]

While I certainly don't advocate the inclusion of cameras in cell phones, if the sole purpose of this device is to make phone calls, is a touch screen or linux OS really necessary?

Re:

[Quattro Vezina]

You try and carry around five devices in your pocket. PDA, phone, MP3 player, pocket calculator, camera, etc. You'll need cargo pants.

It's the one reason I haven't bought an N810 yet, and the main reason why my next phone will almost certainly be an HTC Kaiser/TyTN II.

Re:I was about to order one

[mustafap]

>my next phone will almost certainly be an HTC Kaiser/TyTN II.

I'm so out of touch. I thought that was a pop group.

Re:

[shutdown -p now]

Why not HTC Touch Pro, then?

Re:

[jacquesm]

you can speak for yourself, thank you.

Re:

[slartibart]

sorry, come from a linux background where we prefer one thing to do its job well, in this case, make phone calls. as opposed to making all things "multimedia extravaganzas!" there is always windows mobile and iphone for you to check out.

I think you're comparing apples to oranges. In unix, you might as well have programs do one thing well because there's very little cost to installing more programs. It doesn't make your laptop any bigger or heavier.
Separating your phone, camera, mp3 player, portable video player, etc into different devices is ridiculous, no one can carry that many things. People want one device that does it all, for good reason.

Re:I was about to order one

[mhall119]

is there anything Emacs can't do?

It's missing a good text editor.

Re:I was about to order one

[Kelvie]

On that note, Emacs is known to be working on the OpenMoko. One of the primary reasons I'm getting one -- a phone that runs Emacs.

Re:I was about to order one

[mikiN]

Passer-by: "What kind of voodoo ritual is that guy over there doing to his phone? It looks as if he's trying to pierce it with multiple little sticks all at once while at the same time poking it with his nose."
Geek: "That's no voodoo, he's running Emacs on his Openmoko. Those sticks are styluses. Look, he just did a double-bucky! Without dropping his phone! Cool!"

Re:

[Anpheus]

Double bucky? GET OFF MY LAWN!

Back in my day we had quadruple bucky cokebottle commands.

Re:

[jacquesm]

let me correct that for you:

"Sorry, we were using the royal 'we'".

Re:

[Hannes2000]

I use my phone's camera as a mobile scanner. works perfectly well.

Re:

[mrchaotica]

How do you correct the distortion caused by not aiming the camera exactly (compared to a real flatbed scanner) square-on to the page?

Re:

[jacquesm]

Because for many quick shots a simple camera is more than enough. I don't need to lug around a reflex for quick snaps, having a very simple cam in the phone is a perfect solution for me. Think of it as the difference between a notepad and a wordprocessor, both have their applications.

Re:

[TheRaven64]

There is a very simple reason for using a phone camera:

I don't carry a camera with me, but I do carry a phone.

If I am in a situation when I want to take a photo, there is absolutely no chance that I will have a camera with me (I don't own one anymore, but even when I did it was usually not with me when I wanted to take pictures). In contrast, my mobile phone is most likely in my pocket. It doesn't take as good photos as a dedicated camera (although in natural light they are quite good), but it does take

CDMA areas in 4 years?

[bill_mcgonigle]

Lots of North America is only served (or well-served) by CDMA networks. Hopefully, with Verizon embracing LTE [wikipedia.org] for its next network build-out we'll finally have compatible transcontinental coverage. Next, the world.

Re:CDMA areas in 4 years?

[bill_mcgonigle]

hopefully CDMA areas are GSM in 4 years!

Hey, at least click the link I bothered to include. :)

First, 3G GSM adopted the W-CDMA air interface. Now, the traditionally-CDMA carriers are adopting the 3GPP's new IP-based protocol with an OFDM air-interface. The old definitions are just confusing at this point, but the upshot is the standards are converging. LTE allows for integrated fail-over to older tech, so the carriers don't have to have a build-out completely done on day 1 - they can do it incrementally and the phones will work as people move, but technically a Verizon user could roam on an AT&T tower.

Re:

[gblfxt]

i've been able to use my GSM phone when i travel around the world, CDMA, not so much.

Re:

[bill_mcgonigle]

i've been able to use my GSM phone when i travel around the world, CDMA, not so much.

Try northern New England, for one. Apple won't even sell you an iPhone if you live in Vermont. Pretending GSM has worldwide coverage doesn't help. Converging the standards does.

Re:

[bill_mcgonigle]

when i said "the world", i meant outside of US, if only one country considers something a standard, its not much of one

Well, setting aside that the topic of discussion here is specifically North America, your statement depends on which part of the world you're going to. For instance, if you're going to Japan [cellular-news.com] or South Korea [cellular-news.com] your GSM phone isn't going to work. (You can rent a UTMS W-CDMA phone there to use your SIM card in).

Regardless, there are two incompatible standards in effect and it appears they're co

Re:

[bill_mcgonigle]

In fact, I'd call that a +plus bonus feature, keep them sort of folks out.

Oh, they're already there. The dairy farmers are none too pleased. From this side of the River we refer to them as the People's Republic of Vermont.

Re:

[bill_mcgonigle]

And true second amendment!

Well, yes, amen to that, however much a contradiction it might be I don't need to worry about driving across state lines in my truck.

As far as connectivity, the Governor decreed a couple years ago that the whole state would be covered by cell and broadband by date X (2010, maybe?) And that was it. But it has been decreed. Hurray!

Re:

[MichaelSmith]

Cripes just get a sat phone.

Re:

[colenski]

Iridium [wikipedia.org]

Re:

[TooMuchToDo]

I'm trying recall the name of the project that is the open radio system. With something such as a general radio and an antenna to handle multiple frequencies, couldn't the phone use either GSM or CDMA?

*google*

Ahh! http://hpsdr.org/ [hpsdr.org]

The term I was looking for was software defined radio.

Re:

[bill_mcgonigle]

I'm trying recall the name of the project that is the open radio system. With something such as a general radio and an antenna to handle multiple frequencies, couldn't the phone use either GSM or CDMA?

Yeah, I think that's the end game. IIRC, it's currently cheaper to use two mass-produced chipsets to achieve GSM and W-CDMA than a single software-defined radio, but hopefully some mass production will even this out in the next few years. I suspect it'll take a low-cost carrier that doesn't give you a "free

Re:

[TooMuchToDo]

I think a software defined radio would be the perfect thing for the OpenMoko phone that just was highlighted on Slashdot (it's open source). It'll work on any network than.

Re:

[bill_mcgonigle]

I think a software defined radio would be the perfect thing for the OpenMoko phone that just was highlighted on Slashdot (it's open source). It'll work on any network than.

Absolutely, except, currently, software defined radio hardware [ettus.com] to work with, e.g. the GNURadio stack, is gonna run you a bit under $1000US. But, that's what Moore's law is for, not to mention mass production! When that's a $30 part, it's probably a no-brainer for OpenMoko. Not just cellular - it can be an FM Radio, a GPS receiver, a Bl

Re:

[TooMuchToDo]

It also future-proofs the device to an extent. Want your GSM device to do HSDPA/UMTS? Boom. Firmware/software upgrade. New bluetooth standard that chews through less power? Done. None of this upgrading with each protocol change.

Re:

[bill_mcgonigle]

Exactly, that's why I think when people actually own their own phone instead of being forced to pay for a new one over a 2-year contract they'll be even more appealing.

Audio?

[crush]

What does this thing have hardware support for in terms of audio codecs? Also how is using it to browse the web?

Re:

[Hannes2000]

the webbrowser currently available through the repositories is quite a pain in the ass. the rendering is butt-ugly, scrolling is only possible using scrollbars, zooming is only possible using the tiny zoom-buttons and the keyboard didn't show up when I focused the textfield at google. but I'm sure things will get better soon.

Re:

[richlv]

can't you run opera on it ? while not opensource, it should be quite a decent tool for the purpose.

Re:

[crush]

Thanks for that. Useful info.

Lowered bars

[Goaway]

Although, in my own personal completely unscientific test, 2 out 3 AT&T SIM cards worked.

Sounds like Open Source to me!

Re:

[Creepy Crawler]

And if you hack the radio, you'll get more bars. You'll also get a mugshot too.

3G network...

[Etherized]

OpenMoko still has problems with some 3G networks, including AT&T.

This claim is misleading - the device has no UMTS radio, so of course AT&T's 3G network isn't supported. What's really happening is that some people who have "3G" SIM cards are having trouble accessing AT&Ts GSM network.

and I'd want to buy it why?

[arpad1]

If I'm not mistaken, the phones are going for $400 per. It doesn't look all that good compared to the $200 iPhone so why would I want one if I wasn't interested in the "open" aspect of the phone?

Re:and I'd want to buy it why?

[Tony]

First and foremost, because you control the software.

Secondly, the iPhone is *much* more than $200. That's the subsidized price. By the time you finish with the contract, you've spent quite a bit on your iPhone.

Really, though, you'd only want one right now if you wish to hack on it. There's no reason to get one as your regular phone if you're not a hacker. The software stack is still in its infancy.

Mine is supposed to arrive in a week. I'm pretty damned excited. I figure it needs some good games, like Nethack.

Re:

[pinkstuff]

In New Zealand the iPhone is NZD$200, if you take that option then you are tied to a 2 year contract. How much is this contract? $250 a month! So over two years the iPhone will have actually costed you NZD$6,200. I think I will get a FreeRunner...

Re:

[CreatureComfort]

OK, and how much is the no contract price for service monthly? Including the unlimited data plan, etc. that you will need to pay for to get the equivalent service from your FreeRunner?

Get back to me with a full cost comparison for equivalent level of service and functionality and we'll talk.

Re:

[mrchaotica]

I figure it needs some good games, like Nethack.

Wow, you mean it doesn't already have Nethack? I would have figured that would be a higher priority than the phone dialer!

Re:

[CreatureComfort]

Um..except for the fact that you kinda have to have a contract with somebody to use it anyway. Since none of the carriers is going to give you that subsidy money in cash, or lower contract prices, you are pretty much just giving your carrier a big fat payday by going with a non-subsidized phone. And in fact, you are paying the extra by not being able to take advantage of the subsidy.

Since most people become semi-religious about their carrier, and very few people swap carriers on time frames shorter than

Re:

[Mattsson]

I have a subscription. I've had it for 6 years now.
Whey I buy a new phone, I don't get myself a new subscription. I buy a non-locked phone and keep my old sim-card.
For me, subsidized prices are meaningless.

Also, if you do the math, most "subsidized" phones with subscription X and a Y month contract end up costing more than a non-subsidized phone using the same service after the same period of time.
They usually make you pay a higher subscription-fee for the same service during the contracted time in order to

the pictures are almost worthless

[MoreDruid]

they're too blurry, on some pictures you can barely make out what the guy is trying to take a picture of!

Too bad, since I think it's a pretty nifty device and I would've bought it if it hadn't taken that long to get to market

Downsides to Openmoko?

[marklar1]

Can anyone shed some light on the following statements, taken from:

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2007/08/23/apple-iphone-vs-the-fic-neo1973-openmoko-linux-smartphone/ [roughlydrafted.com]

(after several points wraps up:)

"...OpenMoko therefore isn't a new âoeopen phone,â it's merely a version of Linux designed to run on a specific vendor's proprietary implementation of Windows Mobile. Buying an FIC phone to run OpenMoko is like buying a Dell Windows PC to run Linux. You're not changing the world, you're merely funding d

Re:Downsides to Openmoko?

[ThogScully]

Sounds to me like they made a bunch of stuff up. The OpenMoko folks have gone to great lengths to develop the hardware platform from a completely open perspective, so that it developers can have full access to the hardware and full specs to program to.

Ultimately, calling this a Windows phone running Linux is like saying that all ARM processors are really Windows machines that can also run Linux.

The article really focused on OpenMoko vs. iPhone, but at least as far as I read, didn't get the point. The iPhone is geared toward those who buy things already working and the FreeRunner is aimed at those who want to make it better.
-N

Re:

[Crizp]

I think he just tried to say that the hardware was originally designed by the Chinese government (what's that got to do with anything) as a Windows Mobile platform, not that Linux runs on top of Windows, but then again I'm not sure -- they guy seems to have a screw loose somewhere.

Re:

[dltaylor]

"serial connection to GSM/GPRS"

GSM/GMRS modules often have an embedded microcontroller (ARM7, or the like), and some sort of microkernel. The command/control channel between those and the "system" processor (running Linux/some sort of embedded M$-Windows/...) may emulate, or, in fact, be, a serial port. You exchange sequences similar to the old Hayes modem commands, now commonly called the "AT" command set. You can also use PPP connections, although I don't know if they take advantage of PPP's encapsulat

Re:

[simong]

It's clearly someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. For one, FIC are not a Windows PC maker, but a PC maker. They make the ION 604 mini PC that is sold under various names, particularly Koolu [koolu.com] and Linutop [linutop.fr], which is sold either as a diskless thin client or with a 2.5" HD with a Linux distribution. It's based on the AMD Geode chip, and will run practically any x86 OS as long as there are drivers - I've put a standard out of the box Ubuntu distribution onto one which worked perfectly except for th

There are hardware issues with GPS this iteration.

[Kelvie]

http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-July/021774.html [openmoko.org] It seems that GPS doesn't work very well with a microSD card plugged in ... and this appears to be a hardware issue. If this is the case, I am thinking about sending the package back when it arrives (it's scheduled for tomorrow via UPS). It'll cost an arm and a leg to send it to the US and back otherwise (from Canada, thanks to UPS and customs).

Re:There are hardware issues with GPS this iterati

[holdenkarau]

Before you send it back check out this thread [openmoko.org], it seems like there might be a simple work around.

Shawn the Anonymous Coward.

[Anonymous Coward]

I just got mine, and all I have to say is....

game over!

This is not just a phone. It is a handheld Linux based router! It has a full stack via USB, and in the other direction via the GSM. It is open source hardware, using open source software. I hope a few of you realize what I am talking about. I don't think a device like this (this small, and compact) existed which has this functionality. Routing.

After testing three different sim cards I finally got it to work with ATT. (G3 Fireball, not the one with the round contacts on the back, the one with the square contacts on the back it ends in G 4003 or something to that effect, its posted on the openmoko wiki.

Mark this post, this is the beginning of the end my friends!

Re:

[TheRaven64]

Huh? My current phone (which I've had for 3 years) routes packets between my laptop or palmtop (I use it with my Nokia 770) via bluetooth and the Internet via UMTS. It doesn't need a wire, and it gets 50KB/s in real-world usage. Why, exactly, is needing a wire and routing at a tenth of the speed, but using Linux for the routing, is an improvement.

Re:

[CreatureComfort]

Why in the world would I possibly ever want to use my cell phone as a router?

I Would Have Been Interested

[Skjellifetti]

but I'm still occupied fixing the numerous little annoyances that came with my last not-quite-ready-for-prime-time-alpha-version open source phone [laptop.org] purchase. I hope they can make the beta version a little smaller since it doesn't quite fit into a pocket and it is too big to hold up to my ear for long.

Re:

[Bob The Cowboy]

That's a mighty big phone....

Android?

[autophile]

Will Android run on it?

What access does it have to wireless data connections?

Re:

[squidinkcalligraphy]

AFAIK android will (eventually) run on it

Re:

[alphabeat]

Only via crazy hackery unbeknownst to man. The Freerunner uses ARMv4 and Android requires ARMv5 [1]. Note that this article is for the older Neo1973 but the same applies. [1] http://benno.id.au/blog/2007/11/21/android-neo1973 [benno.id.au]

Beware of GPS problems

[efalk]

I received mine yesterday. By evening, I found out that the GPS wouldn't lock on unless I used an external antenna. By this morning, users had discovered that the GPS works fine if the memory card is removed, pointing to probably electronic interference behind them. If they don't find a field fix for the problem, I'll have to send mine back because I bought it for the GPS applications that I would write for it.

Re:

[wild_berry]

As this post [slashdot.org] says, there's a thread in the mailing list (http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-July/021848.html [openmoko.org]) which says it's a voltage issue, not EMC.

Closed hardware on "Opens" platform

[T.E.D.]

Why on earth did they choose to put a 3D accelerator chip on it that requires an NDA [openmoko.org] to program? The entire FreeSoftware movement was created as a reaction against NDA's.

If I have to reverse-engineer the dang thing, I might as well get an iPhone. Its cheaper too.

Who is aware of the Neo Freerunner

[GeneralSunTzu]

Buddy, this is nonsense. Am located in Belgium and have ordered three days ago a Freerunner from Germany, likely to be shipped after the 25 July.
On behalf of the European geeks,
GeneralSunTzu

Re:

[Yvan256]

Well ok, I stand "corrected". Only geeks are aware of it.

That's still an extremely small market compared to the general public.

Re:

[slick_rick]

The big difference between this and an iPhone is you can plug nearly any sim-card into a freerunner and it just works. You have to open the case of your iPhone and solder things the last I heard to get equivalent functionality with an iPhone.

Nice troll, BTW.

Re:500

[TooMuchToDo]

Dude! The best part isn't that it can be used anywhere. That's an added feature. The best part is that the platform is completely open!

Re:

[slick_rick]

Yeah, that was my point. The Freerunner is an unlocked phone, you plug in any SIM card and it just works. I'm not sure why I'm being modded a Troll above, I'm just speaking the truth.

Re:

[TooMuchToDo]

Ahh! But they are two different things. My Blackberry from T-Mobile is unlocked, but I can't change the OS, although I could write apps for it if I wanted to. Most, if not all GSM phones can be unlocked to work on any other network. No phones (except the Freerunner to my knowledge) provide open source access to the OS.

Re:

[E IS mC(Square)]

I'm not sure why I'm being modded a Troll above

Welcome to Apple Fanboy world.

Re:

[comm2k]

And plenty of people in Europe - especially Germany ;)

Re:

[Locutus]

Boy are you out of the loop. This has been in the press for over a year but if you only look at lame sites like windowsdevices.com or the like, you'd surely miss it.

LoB

Re:

[TheRaven64]

The EU launch was a little while ago. I know one of the European distributors, and he sold out from pre-orders and is waiting for his next shipment to arrive.

Re:

[holdenkarau]

Here is the link I was looking for: http://howardforums.com/showthread.php?t=824482 [howardforums.com] For the most part it looks like they should work, but *shrugs*

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

That ability is currently pending inclusion into the next firmware update. Please be patient.

Re:

[TooMuchToDo]

That's what it's looking like. As a T-Mobile customer, this makes me a sad panda.

Re:

[TooMuchToDo]

Looks like I was wrong:

http://www.openmoko.com/product.html [openmoko.com]

* GSM
o Tri band 850/1800/1900 MHz
o Tri band 900/1800/1900 MHz

Re:Only ATnT?

[tchuladdiass]

Actually, they have two models -- 900/1800/1900, and 850/1800/1900. Both will work with t-mobile. AT&T uses mostly 850, so the second model is the one you'd want if you are on at&t, or if you are on t-mobile and want to roam to 850-only areas.

Re:

[storkus]

Actually that's not quite true: while most of AT&T's markets are 800/850, there are a few, such as here in Phoenix, that are 1900 only--Alltel has the
A side and Verizon the B side. There are also a small number of markets where T-Mobile aka the old orange Cingular network, operates on 850 only: I
believe the largest is in the Great Lakes area.

What I'd like to know is that, with the proliferation of quad band radios, why they didn't use one of those instead?

Mike

Re:

[tchuladdiass]

Well, T-Mobile in the Chicago area uses 1900, not sure about further up north (I do know that most of their roaming in Wisconsin is 850).
As far as the radio that was chosen, I think the device was originally designed as a quad-bad, but it couldn't get FCC certification until they removed one of the lower bands. Probably due to the antenna design. Also, the radio chip they use is a rather old model, that TI sells for like a couple bucks or so (from what I gather by following the mailing list).

Re:

[FreeForm Response]

I can positively assert that the phone works great with T-Mobile's network. Mine arrived today and I'm already loving it.

Re:

[Boogaroo]

Blackberries take 3 minutes to boot up too, so it's certainly not a unique issue.

Re:

[Ilgaz]

Symbian S60 does take 30-45 sec to boot up. I don't know the Apple iPhone but I am totally sure it doesn't instantly boot up. I was just about to say if iPhone turns on instantly, remove the battery and watch it but... you know, battery can't be removed :)

You don't reboot smart phones, you set them offline. At least I do it. Mobile operating systems are designed to run for weeks or months, My Nokia 9300 record is 3 months, it doesn't even have capability to turn off without removing battery. As it is actual