Follow Slashdot blog updates by subscribing to our blog RSS feed

 


Forgot your password?
Close
typodupeerror
×
Portables Transportation Hardware News

TSA Evaluating Laptop Bags 95

Posted by Soulskill from the innovations-in-bag-technology dept.
kbielefe writes "The Transportation Security Administration has sent out a call to laptop bag manufacturers to produce a laptop bag that could pass through airport screening without having to remove the laptop. The TSA will perform testing starting at the end of May, with the end result hopefully being a TSA stamp of approval that will reduce the hassle for a lot of us. According to the article, 'The key is for TSA screeners to be able to view the laptop in a single X-ray image, so the laptop would not need to be placed in a separate TSA bin.'"
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

TSA Evaluating Laptop Bags More

TSA Evaluating Laptop Bags

Comments Filter:

  • Well damn (Score:3, Interesting)

    by n3tcat ( 664243 ) on Friday March 07, 2008 @06:35PM (#22682660)
    And here I was trying to build a new laptop case-mod by integrating the laptop into the bag itself. This idea is so much easier though!
    • Seems like the problem isn't with the bags, it's with the X-ray equipment.. how absurd is it that the TSA is asking the bag manufacturers to make more x-rayable bags instead of tweaking their X-rays to scan bags?
      • They are trying to have bags such that the laptop is on one side, and the cables and such are on the other. How, exactly, would you propose modifying X-Ray scanners such that they can make two pictures from one scan of two overlaying objects? I'm pretty sure you could make a lot of money if you had an answer to that.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by mikael ( 484 )
          They are trying to have bags such that the laptop is on one side, and the cables and such are on the other. How, exactly, would you propose modifying X-Ray scanners such that they can make two pictures from one scan of two overlaying objects? I'm pretty sure you could make a lot of money if you had an answer to that.

          Have the bag constructed from two partitions that are velcro-stripped or zipped together. These can be pulled apart so that the cables can be separated from the laptop without removing either.
          • Because it's little and I couldn't find a case to fit it, my Eee lives in one of those fold-out washbags you can get. It has three zip compartments that wrap round one another. The laptop itself is in the innermost, and accessories in the outer ones, so when folded out flat the laptop doesn't have anything in front of or behind it. I wonder whether a modification of that design could work for larger machines too?

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by Amouth ( 879122 )
              for my boss at work with an Eee we ended up putting it in an old travel projector bag - first perfectly
        • Uh...actually, they have had x ray machines that can do that for 30 years. It's called a CT scanner, and yes, the manufacturers make a ton of money from that.

          Oh...you mean, make a machine that can CHEAPLY resolve a 3d image...well, that's another story.
          • Don't forget 'quickly', too.

          • Oh...you mean, make a machine that can CHEAPLY resolve a 3d image...well, that's another story.

            No, CT scanning could probably be done cheaply enough. The real problem is that CT scanners are unavoidably huge, and airports are already cramped.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by arivanov ( 12034 )
              The new UK scanners mandated by our "paranoiacs in charge" are effectively that. 3d scanner.
    • Why actually build something when the reward is in submitting a vague patent?
  • So what about the requirement that you actually show that the laptop is really a laptop and not a bomb by taking it out and turning it on?

    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      by n3tcat ( 664243 )
      I'm guessing they only instituted that rule because their employees don't know what computer internals look like. So all they have to do now is just make sure all TSA employees are A+ certified and we won't have to deal with that hassle anymore either.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by ack154 ( 591432 )
      I just flew round trip to Boston (US Air) and never once had to turn my laptop on. Of course, it does have to be taken out of the bag, like the article says... but didn't see anyone having to turn theirs on.
    • I've been on several recent trips and I have never had to turn on the laptop, nor did I see anyone do so. List of airports:

      Los Angeles, CA-LAX
      Hong Kong, China-HKG
      Cebu, Philippines (Didn't even have to remove it from the bag)
      Dayton, OH-DAY
      Newark, NJ-EWR

      Here is a funny quirk that pissed me off though...on the flight back to the US from HK, I couldn't take a bottle of water with me on the plane that I purchased after the security checkpoints...they confiscated larger bottles of liqid from everyone as we board

      • Re:Ok... (Score:4, Funny)

        by JWSmythe ( 446288 ) * <jwsmythe@@@jwsmythe...com> on Friday March 07, 2008 @07:01PM (#22682962) Homepage Journal
        I've been through a *LOT* of airports in the US. Pretty much every major airport.

            I've only ever been asked once to turn on my laptop, and that was pre-9/11. I was leaving Detroit for Amsterdam. The funny thing was, the battery was dead. I told the security guy, if he could walk me over to a power outlet, I could plug it in, and turn it on for him. Otherwise, he was out of luck. He didn't make me, but we did chitchat about my work for a while. I worked at an adult company, and he was familiar with the company, so it made for an unusual conversation, but it was neat talking to a fan of the site. With several million daily viewers, it wasn't unexpected to bump into a few regular viewers, I just didn't expect it.

           

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by webmaster404 ( 1148909 )

        Here is a funny quirk that pissed me off though...on the flight back to the US from HK, I couldn't take a bottle of water with me on the plane that I purchased after the security checkpoints...they confiscated larger bottles of liqid from everyone as we boarded (excluding medicines and baby formula). What's up with that?


        The same reasons airports do all kinds of strange things... To make you pay more.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Rakishi ( 759894 )

        Here is a funny quirk that pissed me off though...on the flight back to the US from HK, I couldn't take a bottle of water with me on the plane that I purchased after the security checkpoints...they confiscated larger bottles of liqid from everyone as we boarded (excluding medicines and baby formula). What's up with that?

        It's I guess theoretically possible for someone to smuggle in an explosive inside a regular bottle shipment or some other means then for an accomplice (who was actually flying) to pick up that bottle (or transfer the explosive to it).

        • If that's possible, then it's much more trivial for the accomplice to smuggle in a non-liquid explosive and hand that off. Seriously, the liquid explosives they're supposedly worried about are incredibly difficult to actually get to work. It's all scare tactics on the part of the government.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by LoadWB ( 592248 )
            Maybe the terra'ists are onto a solution already. Four guys drink parts of this imaginary chemical cocktail. Probably a lot of it. Then one by one they piss the components out into the lavatory. Boom!

            What a pisser. Security Theater. Tickets, please. Everyone please move to the end of the row to make more seats available.

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by sricetx ( 806767 )
        Something similar happened to me a few years ago. I had bought a bottle of water after the security checkpoint at London Heathrow, but when changing planes through the Frankfurt airport enroute to the US, I had to go through security again and they confiscated my water. Strange to go through security for a connection. Maybe just a peculiarity of the Frankfurt airport (which is a shitty airport in most respects).

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by blueg3 ( 192743 )
      Instead of doing this, they run the laptop through the x-ray scanner, which (in theory) confirms that it contains only electronics, not explosives.

      Apparently they have you remove them from bags because the bags (in conjunction with the case of the laptop) are too much of a barrier to the x-rays to properly image the inside of the laptop.
    • I don't recall that rule ever being implemented. In effect they'd be saying "Please trigger the bomb now and kill me instead of the people on the plane."

      And for what it's worth, I was a TSA screener for two years.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by lgw ( 121541 )
        That sounds like it was pre-TSA. Not that the TSA isn't horribly bad, mind you, but it's just barely possible to be worse.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Z00L00K ( 682162 )
      It really doesn't matter - regardless of the size of the computer you can still hide enough of plastic explosives in it to cause a mess.

      What REALLY is necessary is to get a way of detecting the explosive materials and skip everything else. Unfortunately a laptop and it's accessories is a very complex component and it's not easy to distinguish the bad parts from the good.

      And mind - cheese can appear suspicious on the X-ray scanners. I have been asked once about a strange scan that was caused by cheese I

    • They require that? I've traveled in Europe with a laptop, all the related cabling and a big external HD. No-one looked twice at any of that stuff, and that HD alone could have easily hidden a significant amount of explosives, basically being just a big metal box. If I had the illusion these security checks had anything to do with security, I'd be quite baffled.

  • paper bag (Score:2, Insightful)

    by jandoedel ( 1149947 )
    so you need a bag without straps, zippers, without mouse, wires, pens.... i think they want you to use a brown paper bag.
    • Actually that's exactly it. Between the chargers, cables, the mouse you have for it, headphones, and all the other junk you put in your laptop bag (it's actually the ONLY carry-on bag I have when flying since I can fit my other things in there), what about all of that? Seems like that would re-disqualify you.

      Dubious goals here it seems IMO.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by hurfy ( 735314 )
        Not that hard is it?

        Can't the bag just be wider than the laptop and put that stuff next to the laptop instead of on top/underneath. Gonna need a mega wide bag if you want one for external drives and a printer but still doable. Include metal thread embroidery that says LAPTOP and OTHER to really speed you through on the deluxe version ;)
    • Actually, I use a bag like this [travelonbags.com]. (Mine is an older model, but essentially the same.) It's just a simple "wrapper" with some padding and a handle -- quite sufficient. If I want to carry more stuff, I put that inside a larger back-pack. (I find it kind of funny that some people buy thin/small laptops only to carry them around in big, hulking bags.)

      But, currently, I still have to remove the laptop from the bag because nobody on the TSA security lines is permitted to think.

    • Re:paper bag (Score:4, Funny)

      by aaron_pet ( 530223 ) <aaron_pet@@@hotmail...com> on Friday March 07, 2008 @07:47PM (#22683414) Homepage Journal
      macbook air in an interdepartmental env?

  • This one (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 07, 2008 @06:36PM (#22682684)
    Is right out! [boingboing.net]
    • Long ago it came to me, "If you give them ammunition, they will shoot it at you".
      It helps remember that freedom, tempered with good taste, is something that keeps us all mellow.

  • Uh huh (Score:3, Insightful)

    by MBCook ( 132727 ) <foobarsoft@foobarsoft.com> on Friday March 07, 2008 @06:38PM (#22682712) Homepage

    Because instead of making everyone take our their laptop, making some do it and not others based on some random criteria like what bag it is in will not slow things down at all.

    What do you mean this year's Targus bags look just like last years? So they'll just make everyone take them out to search them because it's faster than figuring out who has a special bag?

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Jay Maynard ( 54798 )
      I would expect that the approved bags, like the TSA-approved luggage locks, would display a special, readily-identifiable logo.

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by JWSmythe ( 446288 ) *

            I had TSA approved locks. They survived about 3 trips. On the last trip, when I got my bags, I found the cut locks in the bottom of the bags, with the TSA advisory that the bag had been searched.

            So much for doing the "right" thing. I just gave up locking them. The only people I worry about stealing from my bags are the people who can open those locks anyways.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Rakishi ( 759894 )
          Most such small locks can be popped off with a screwdriver, happened in my high school to idiots who used them for their lockers. Locks are probably more useful in preventing your luggage's contents from littering the runway after it gets snagged on something.
        • Travel with a gun. You go thru security quicker, and you are pre-inspected and are allowed to lock your luggage properly. And they can't label your stuff as having a gun. And you needed get a BIG gun... just the action off a old single shot shotgun will work, its enough to be a gun for the ATF. Just follow the fed regulation (locked case, etc) and the TSA regulations (same as fed) and teh airline regulation (tell your check in person you need to declare a firearm). Best part is if your luggage is "lost

          • I've traveled a few times with firearms in my luggage. It did expedite me to getting my checked luggage looked at, but the rest of the trip went normally.

            The only odd part was, I had to unlock the case the gun was in, show them that it wasn't loaded, and then put it all back. While I'm very comfortable with firearms, holding a gun in an airport seems like a good way to get myself shot, which would suck since I didn't even have ammo. :)

            I'd hate for one of them t
            • A few years ago my friend was visiting his family in Texas, and his uncle owned a large plot of land they hunted on. He brought his .270 and 12 gauge shotgun. They made him show they were clear at the baggage check, so he is sitting there manipulating the bolts on these weapons right at the airport counter. People standing in line had that "WTF?" look on their faces as this dude in shorts/t-shirt is playing with a rifle in front of them.

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by PO1FL ( 1074923 )

        I would expect that the approved bags, like the TSA-approved luggage locks, would display a special, readily-identifiable logo.
        Yes, that makes sense, which is a sure sign it will never happen at an airport. And if, by some miracle it did happen, I'd expect that we'd just get some story about counterfeit logos.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by nwse ( 1143731 )
      *imagines a 10 inch round construction orange embroidery logo on the laptop bag.

  • Time for loud startup sounds (Score:4, Funny)

    by Black Art ( 3335 ) on Friday March 07, 2008 @06:56PM (#22682902)
    Makes me want to change my boss' start up sound to loud orgasm noises before he travels.

    "Can you turn this on for me?"

    "Sure!"

    "Aahahahahahahahoooooohhhh!"

    • Don't put it out of the realm of possibility .... 2 vp's in my company had me put an orgasm scream on the owners phone as all of his ring tones - it rang the first time while his wife was in the office.

  • Just do what I do (Score:4, Funny)

    by Quattro Vezina ( 714892 ) on Friday March 07, 2008 @07:01PM (#22682960) Journal
    Just do what I do: boycott the TSA by not flying.

    I've not flown since before 9/11, and I'm quite proud of it.

    • Re:Just do what I do (Score:4, Insightful)

      by linguae ( 763922 ) on Friday March 07, 2008 @07:32PM (#22683276)

      As much as I don't like the TSA's policies, boycotting them is like boycotting the IRS by not working. There are some jobs that require flying. If I needed to go across country for a conference, it's much easier to just fly there than to spend a few days on a bus or train. If I needed to go overseas, I have no real choice but to fly.

      • Have your company buy/rent a private jet. That way you don't have to accomodate to silly schedules, and you don't have to go through the stupid checkpoints.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by jc42 ( 318812 )
          Have your company buy/rent a private jet.

          Though many people might have thought this was facetious, it's actually a practical idea that many people and companies have figured out. Starting in Oct 2001, I started reading and hearing news stories about the sudden boom in sales of small jets to "air taxi" services. It turns out that the price tradeoff is typically around 2 to 4 seats, at which point the small jet is cheaper than the same number of "business rate" seats on most commercial flights. These servi
      • I agree. I've managed it since 9/11, going to four conferences from Cincinnati (the farthest being in Chicago). In a couple weeks, I'm going to the American Chemical Society National Meeting in New Orleans. There is no way in hell I am going to leave after work on Friday, drive down there, and be up at 8 am Saturday morning for the ensuing shenanigans. It just isn't going to happen. So now I get to see what the current state of airport fun is, after missing it the last six years. Joy!

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Walzmyn ( 913748 )
        Yeah, but if they keep piling crap on like this, at some point it's going to be cheeper (including man-hours) to buy your own plane.

    • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

      by maxume ( 22995 )
      Well woop di fucking do.

      I suppose you would protest restrictions on free speech by not talking?

      (I've only flown twice since 9/11, once 4 months later, where people were still pretty freaked out, and once recently, where it wasn't a problem at all, but I'm no so hopelessly myopic that I think that not flying(much) is a viable choice for other people)

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by epp_b ( 944299 )

      Just do what I do: boycott the TSA by not flying. I've not flown since before 9/11, and I'm quite proud of it.

      If only we were all fortunate enough not to be required to travel long distances in short amounts of time.

      I have to travel a 5,000-mile round-trip a few times a year for being a subject of medical research and treatment (the cost of which is covered by the research hospital). Even though I've never had any specific incident with the TSA, I loath having to wait in line and be treated like a her

    • Re:Just do what I do (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Danny Rathjens ( 8471 ) <slashdot2@rath j e n s . org> on Friday March 07, 2008 @08:04PM (#22683560)
      Does boycotting really matter when the government will simply hand over $5 billion in immediate cash assistance ( and $10 billion in loan guarantees ) [cnn.com] of your tax money to the airlines if they aren't making enough profit?

    • Just do what I do: boycott the TSA by not flying.

      I'm not sure what you're talking about; I fly all the time (usually 253FD out of KSMO, sometimes 8074L if 253FD isn't available) and never have to interact with TSA at all.

      Oh. You meant "pretend to be cattle by flying commercially." That's a different thing altogether.

    • How the hell that ranks as Insightful, I have no clue... "not flying" isn't an option for some of us. And not bringing the laptop isn't an option, either. It's my primary link to all of my work; I don't even own or use a desktop computer any more. If I'm in Toronto on Friday and Houston on Monday, then three weeks later in Hyderabad, ultimately leaving on a Friday and back at work in Toronto on Monday... well, you know how I'm going to travel. Anything that can be done to speed my way through customs and im

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by jonadab ( 583620 )
      I flew one round trip in the post-9/11 world, in September 2005, from Cleveland Hopkins to Syracuse NY, and back a week later. I really don't see what all the fuss is about. To me the major difference between that flight and the pre-9/11 flight from Cinci to Phoenix that I took in the nineties, was that the 2005 flight was on a smaller plane with only three seats per row, compared to the four seats per row of the one I flew on in the nineties. Also the Syracuse airport is much smaller than the one in Pho

  • Or they can just not have us take it out the bag (Score:5, Informative)

    by jmauro ( 32523 ) on Friday March 07, 2008 @07:04PM (#22682994)
    Like every other country on the planet.

    The lady at the Osaka airport looked at me weird when I tried to take my laptop out of the bag. I think Japan has an x-ray machine that can look through cloth, I cannot explain it any other way. We should buy those instead of what we got now and not waste our time on "Airport Cleared" bags.
    • ... or then are slightly more free than the US.
    • The problem is not seeing through the bags. It's seeing through the laptop and the cables/adapters/other simultaneously that is the problem. Remember, metal blocks X-Rays. Laptops and the other assorted cables contain a lot of metal. Separating the two makes it easier for them to make sure that there is nothing in the laptop that isn't supposed to be in a laptop. Airport security in the U.S. didn't used to require laptops be taken out of the case. I'm guessing that changed sometime after 9/11. I've be

      • Re:Or they can just not have us take it out the ba (Score:5, Insightful)

        by jmauro ( 32523 ) on Friday March 07, 2008 @07:56PM (#22683508)
        It was actually first implemented after Pan-Am 103 when a bomb was fashioned into a boom-box in the cargo hold of the plane, but were discontinued when it was found that they don't actually improve security in any measurable way. They were re-instituted after the September 11 attacks in order to "do something", but like the "no liquids" on the plane they've remained in place even after they've been proven to be completely irrational and with no improvement of security.

        Also the "turn on" rule was part of the aftermath of Pan-Am 103 until it was pointed out that the computer or boombox can still work perfectly fine ever after most of its internals have been removed to make a bomb.

          Just thank god they didn't implement their first idea which was to ban all electronics from the cabin of the plane. Someone had the rationality to say, no that's just stupid.
        • Pan-Am had explosives and they were in the cargo hold as you say. I'm guessing they started looking for knives and so on that were going to be a carry-on. Slightly different situation.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Arimus ( 198136 )
          [blockquote]
          bomb was fashioned into a boom-box
          [/blockquote]

          Isn't a bomb in a box a boom-box anyway? so it wasn't fashioned into a boom-box... ;)

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by jo42 ( 227475 )
        So the alleged boogeyman will fashion a boom-boom device so that it looks like a spare battery into a spare battery or looks like a power adapter into a power adapter to the x-ray machine and operator. You could even fashion a box cutter into a spare battery and have it look like a spare battery.

        The people that make the decision on how things are done are total frickin' idiot morons. Before 9/11, and several years afterwards, you could carry an extra large coffee through security and onto the plane without
        • So the alleged boogeyman will fashion a boom-boom device so that it looks like a spare battery into a spare battery or looks like a power adapter into a power adapter to the x-ray machine and operator. You could even fashion a box cutter into a spare battery and have it look like a spare battery.

          From the outside you could make it look like a battery/power adapter. But would you be able to make it look the exact same through the x-ray machine? Power adapters tend to have the same x-ray look. Modified o
  • I've kept my laptop in a neoprene sleeve when going through security. 19 out of 20 times they won't make you remove the laptop from the sleeve.
  • Funny, my backpack has a separate laptop sleeve to it that uses velcro to close it. There's a mesh bag on the front that zippers, so you can easily see what's in it (or verify there's nothing there before running it through the x-ray machine.

    I've had this thing for almost 6 years. Where has the TSA been? Of right, making me take the laptop sleeve out of my backpack, take it out of the sleeve, put it in the separate TSA box, then get conflicting instructions about where my shoes go.
  • Why do they make you take the laptops out of bags if you can x-ray the whole thing at once? Does it have something to do with the X-ray damaging critical components?

  • Total waste of time (Score:3, Insightful)

    by WillAffleckUW ( 858324 ) on Friday March 07, 2008 @08:29PM (#22683718) Homepage Journal
    It's not like this stops anything.

    Most laptop batteries could easily be used to form a shaped charge with very minor modifications that wouldn't show up until after you slipped a film around the battery itself - and the separated components, combined with your seat tray table, can easily defeat the air cabin door.

    At least, based on my memories of my first two Army combat field engineer courses.

    Why are we as a society wasting our time on this?
    • Oh great, now you just gave them an idea! Except it will probably be misinterpretted and TSA will ban AA batteries or something.

    • "Why are we as a society wasting our time on this?"

      There is surplus Labor. Either just give them welfare dollars, or hire them into pointless make-work jobs.

      Every TSA Employee hassling a Taxpayer is one less welfare check which needs to be cut.

      Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy in practice.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by jc42 ( 318812 )
        Every TSA Employee hassling a Taxpayer is one less welfare check which needs to be cut.

        Well, maybe, but the welfare recipient isn't spending his/her day actively interfering with the efficiency of the population's travel. I'd argue that we're all better off putting the TSA employees on the dole, and then the rest of us can go about our lives without the hassle.

        Of course, considering their nature, some of them would have "hobbies" that are equally damaging to society. Some of them might even run for office
  • It seems ridiculous to me that we even carry our carry-on luggage through security. They should have a security line for people, and a security conveyor for bags, and we can claim/sign for our carry-ons from a TSA officer on the other side. If they want to take the laptop out of a bag to get a better look, let them make the decision right then. If they find anything they want to question someone about, wait until they come to claim their bag. If people are worried about their items (let's face it, stuff
    • One of the reasons I try and limit myself to what I can take in a carry-on is to avoid having my bags subjected to the gentle ministrations of the baggage handlers. Thump, thump, thump...

      You want to subject your laptop to that?

      If people are worried about their items (let's face it, stuff "disappears"), video tape it from start to finish and let people inspect the tape.

      Let's have them do that for checked baggage first so we can see how well it works.
  • Maybe the real answer for most of you is to take a nice slow ship, maybe with the family. That or stay home and use the internet for long distance work and stop wasting all that jet fuel. I won't get into environmental damage or risk of death.
  • I guess I can scrap the laptop bag I was just about finished building with lead shielding panels and a kryptonite lining.
  • They can take away my current laptop bag when they pry it from my cold.... oh yeah, I guess that's the plan.

  • CPAP (Score:1)

    by ygthb ( 84559 )
    I travel alot, and it is easy to pull out my laptop. What is a bear is digging out my CPAP.

    I travel with a briggs and reiley laptop bag that contains all my gear and 1 extra shirt. I also carry a rollaway that contains my clothes for the week and the CPAP. Since the airlines balk at 3 bags it has to be 2, and every time I check a bag it gets lost. I cant survive without my CPAP, so it will never be checked.

    I did have a TSA tell me that the CPAP motor is potted so it just shown up as a black spot on the
    • One of my co-workers has the same "problem" with his CPAP. It's really fun when we travel together because even without his CPAP together we are a technology armada.

      He travels with his CPAP, a cell phone, work laptop, a personal DVD player and a few odd PCMCIA cards.

      I usually travel with two work laptops, a personal laptop, a wireless router, a switch, two cell phones, two iPods, CAT-5 and serial cables and all the assorted dongles and bits that go with all that crap.

      He always gets his CPAP inspected. By in

Slashdot Top Deals

"Mach was the greatest intellectual fraud in the last ten years." "What about X?" "I said `intellectual'." ;login, 9/1990

Close