California Utilities to Control Thermostats? 503
TeraBill writes "It seems that the California Energy Commission is looking to give utilities in the state the power to control the thermostats in private homes via a radio signal. The idea is that during times of significant energy crunch, the utilities could force thermostats to higher temperatures rather than having to implement a rolling blackout. The thermostats have been around for a while and new ones were on display at the CES show in Vegas this week. While I can see the argument for it, we just had a kid take over a tram system with a remote control, so how long before our thermostat gets hacked by the neighbors. And I'd almost rather have the power drop than have someone significantly raise the temperature in my home if I had a computer running there. (UPS and a graceful shutdown versus cooking something.)"
Reasonable idea (Score:2)
If you want to make your computer shut down when the temperature gets too hot, you could probably rig something up.
Re:Reasonable idea (Score:5, Interesting)
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We're talking about California here. Since when does any "good idea" the government dreams up get implemented on a voluntary basis in California?
Energy is not limitless, that is a fact.
For all practical purposes, solar energy is limitless. When it comes down to it, almost all energy we have on Earth except for
Re:Reasonable idea (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Reasonable idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Reasonable idea (Score:4, Insightful)
This is the sort of naive, knee-jerk reaction that makes sense when you don't understand how the grid works.
Yes, of course we can build more infrastructure, and we may have to, but that's not what TFA is about. TFA is about a solution to high peak loads. Building more infrastructure (generation and transmission) is an expensive solution, especially when you only need it for a few hours per day.
Automatic load shedding, on the other hand (the solution proposed in TFA) moves energy use away from the peaks, allowing greater overall utilization of the existing infrastructure. There are pilot programs in many places already, and you will pay lower rates for your (voluntary) participation. It's very unlikely that you'll ever be forced to participate in such a program against your will.
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Re:Reasonable idea (Score:5, Insightful)
1) They stayed the hell away from the south western US.
2) They used the evaporative cooling.
3) They had ice shipped in, and paid exorbitant fees for it.
4) The old and infirm, quite simply, died.
What do I win?
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What I just can not believe is that people are actually putting up with the kind of bullshit they are shoveling in Ca
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They are. It's NIMBY syndrome. Everyone wants the voltage, but nobody wants to live near a power plant. The coal fumes or the nuclear risk or the whatever's wrong with gas are all too scary. That's why the state has its solar programs: after state-run rebates, you can get solar basically for free. Why? Because people will actually do it. Don't get me wrong, I hate SDG&E with a passion. But, the infrstructure problem isn't their fault. The
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Re:Reasonable idea (Score:4, Interesting)
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Re:Reasonable idea (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Reasonable idea (Score:5, Insightful)
If there's not enough power to go around, build up the infrastructure. I pay for a service. You provide it. How many decades do you have to suffer poor infrastructure problems before you finally start investing in it? How the hell do you run a business (and it is) by providing only what your current systems can handle and to hell with a growing demand for those services in the future? Imagine if the phone company had decided that, instead of requiring you to dial the area code every time you make a call, they had simply said "sorry, no more phone lines!" and decided not to invest in any sort of build-out whatsoever?
This whole "oh my god, not enough power" thing is fine for a year or two, when it catches you off guard. Its' quite another more than a decade later.
Re:Reasonable idea (Score:5, Insightful)
The power generation infrastructure suffers from too much 'NIMBY'. I lived in Indiana for years, and during the 90's; Duke power wanted to build several 'Peak Power' generation plants fired by Natural Gas. Every time they tried to get permits, the 'NIMBY' (Not In My Back Yard) crowd showed up and whined to the elected officials. Naturally, fearing a loss of votes elected officials caved.
California is in much the same state; They haven't been able to build a power plant (thanks to the NIMBY's) for at least 2 decades. Now, they are suffering for it. Back in 2001, the DOE estimated that the US would need around 1900 power plants built by the year 2021. Yes, they've built wind farms, but now they're finding that the Wind Farms are killing Raptors and causing infestations of rats. http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=18447 [heartland.org]
There is no easy answer--Conservation by us will help some, but ultimately we need clean, cheap power. On NUMB3RS last night, they were looking at putting up Solar Panels on Charlies house; which on a nice bright sunny day would generate more than what they used. IIRC, they were looking at some really cutting edge technology stuff. Currently, the break even point is about 12-18 years, but this company looks really promising. http://www.news.com/greentech/8301-11128_3-9835241-54.html?tag=nefd.top [news.com] At their cost of $1/watt it cuts the break even by as much as 66%.
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I doubt it's even necessary.
Where I live it's 90F and 85+% humidity 365 days a year, and I absolutely never use air conditioning. Just leave the windows open and turn on a ceiling fan and it's perfectly nice. If I am leaving my computer on while I go out during the hottest part of the day, I leave a desk fan (on low setting) pointed at it, and it's never overheated yet.
Not many people live
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The OP is stupid and obviously has never been inside a data center. They're much warmer than your average house. Indeed, the
Why stop there? (Score:3, Interesting)
This seems like a reasonable idea...
Then lets apply it in a lot more places. Remote locks on refrigerators when you've eaten enough for the day. Or cut off your water when you've used your quota. Maybe a machine that dispenses your cigarettes for the day ala 5th Element. Maybe the government thinks you should exercise more so they regulate your TV time. Because, let's face it, a technical solution is just so much more effective than education.
Every really insane piece of regulation started with a
Re:Reasonable idea (Score:4, Insightful)
Time depending pricing: saving the planet? (Score:3, Insightful)
Thegood idea, however, would be to have time-dependent pricing on power. Power production is very expensive at some times of day, typically mid-day during the air-conditioning season, and very cheap at other times of day, in fact, nearly cost-free from midnight to 5 AM, when the power plants are still turning over but nob
For those of us in cold climates... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:For those of us in cold climates... (Score:4, Insightful)
So I guess that does make the idea a lot more reasonable, although I would still rather feel that if your power grid can't always deal with the electricity demand, then it's the power grid that needs updating - on the other hand, this probably both cheaper and more enviromentally friendly.
That leaves the one concern then: hacking of the system, especially since this is wireless. If the idea is to turn air conditioning down to reduce the strain on the power grid, then bad guys can use the same system and turn the air conditioning up to crash the grid. And what does TFA say about the possibility of hacking?Yeah right, like that's ever stopped anyone. Also, what is the difference between encrypted and encoded?
Re:For those of us in cold climates... (Score:5, Interesting)
Oh, no, they won't install them in any commercial location, only private homes. Making people uncomfortable in their own homes, no problem; Interfering with Holy Commerce, now, they just don't play games there. Won't happen.
Remember, this involves a state that has to pump in water from two states away because of regular yearly droughts that make the US SouthEast this year look like a bunch of crybabies, yet when they implement watering bans, they exempt businesses; And even on mornings when they do actually get a bit of rain, those businesses will still leave the sprinklers on, because it costs less than having Jose drop by and manually interrupt the cycle.
In any other state, I'd consider this proposal offensive enough to incite riots. But California? Heh. Relax and just watch the show.
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I've lived in CA all my life (over 50) and have lived through a couple of droughts that are far worse than this one has been. CA has implemented mandatory water conservation at least twice at the county level in my life time. I've personally lost a lawn that cost me $1500 to install because of it. Business's turn off fountains and other water displays in the normal course of these things AND the watering you see at the commercial par
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It's not a shortage; it's bogus "deregulation" (Score:3, Interesting)
But the root of the problem isn't any "energy crunch" or even CA's very high usage. It's that a decade ago, some idiots decided "deregulation"** would be a wonderful idea, and did so.. but one of the requirements was that
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I'm just trying to make fun of press-release-speak trying to make us believe that "encrypted AND encoded" somehow ensures superiour security
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That reminds me of something that happened at a college back in the 1970s during the energy crisis, when everyone was asked to save energy by lowering their thermostats to 68 degrees. I was taking some classes at a Junior College in Arizona at the time. They lowered the thermostats to 68 degrees during the winter to save energy, as requested, and then several weeks later they discovered that the air conditioning system had come on automatically to get the building down to 68 degrees.
Will these proposed
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All of these laws were repealed by the Reagan Administration, but if they had stayed in effect, who knows what improvement they might have brought to our current situation, in terms of overall carbon emissions and in geo-political terms.
Hell, if we'd have
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Re:For those of us in cold climates... (Score:5, Informative)
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Now, I've priced having the house updated (insulation blown into the walls, replace all the windows with double-pane models). Total cost would be somewhere around $10,000. (Somewhat higher if it were done
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No, I was not suggesting that the thermostat had been lowered remotely with radio signals. Someone at the college had lowered the thermostat, because president Carter had said that was what everyone in the country should do. The college employees just did not realize that would make the air-conditioning come on.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_teleswitch [wikipedia.org]
Have there been any stories of this system being "hacked"? All you need to do is create a longwave transmitter that's more powerful than the BBC (and it's on the same frequency as a popular radio channel, so your jammer would be noticed by anyone who listens to the radio). Of course, cryptographic signing has become popular since then and might be used in new systems.
Horrible... (Score:5, Insightful)
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A lot of people here seem mad that the government is controlling people's thermostats. THIS IS NOT THE CASE!!!
I suspect this is similar to a program Southern California Edison already has in place. If you are a homeowner, you can have Edison install a remote kill switch to your A/C unit. Then, during the summer, Edison can cut your A/C for 30 minutes to 4 hours.
Note:
Some places already do this. It's a good idea. (Score:4, Informative)
Having everyone pulling power willy-nilly from a facility with limited output is a dumb idea. Regulating a more even amount of power to everyone is smarter.
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Having everyone pulling power from a properly built infrastructure so that it can handle said demand is ideal. I don't know how long California has been having this problem, but it has been at least ten years and if you can't at least begin to increase your services in a decade, then you don't deserve to be in business.
It's not like the energy isn't available. They just don't have the power grid to handle it. Rather than Orwell-ing me, how about improving your damn services?
Around here ... (Score:2, Insightful)
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The problem is that during certain high-demand summer days, California's grid infrastructure cannot provide enough electricity to meet the demand. People are upset because California has not been more aggressive about improving the power grid or building new power plants.
Load management terminals (Score:5, Informative)
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You notice it, like I did, when the condensing unit is powered down and powered back on too quickly and it trips the circuit breaker causing the house's temperature to rise to 88 degrees (with only a dog inside) while you're at work. When you get home, reset the circuit breaker, and attempt to get the house's temperature to something more reasonable, you cann
Yes, it does get cold here (Score:2)
OTOH I'
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Except shareholders are unlikely to accept a 30 year return of investment.
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Why would that be a good solution? Putting more carbon into the air isn't going to make the temperature any cooler!
I think they'd be better off just charging more for electricity (with concessions for those who really need it but can't afford it). If you want AC then you'd better be prepared to pay for it. People lived without it in the past. At the moment, taking steps to save electricity doesn't really save you a noticeable amount of $$$. If the price went up a
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Was that computer a Beowulf cluster or something? Over here, electricity is about EUR 0.22/kWh. EUR 70 per month for 12 hours per day would mean you have a 900 W computer, or maybe 600 W plus 300 W for the airconditioning.
Hacking the temperature swing (Score:4, Interesting)
What gear you got at home ? (Score:3, Informative)
What the hell you running in there ? California, with the exception of the Central Valley and a few deserts (not all that populated) is not all that hot. I have run almost all forms of workstations sans AC in 40C + weather with no adverse effects.
a computer is a lot less sensitive than your baby (Score:3, Insightful)
As to your baby, rashes and sores like that are due to friction from humidity, not from heat. Computers don't care about humidity much either.
I live in California without A/C. No problems. I grew up in Michigan (similar to M
hands of my thermostat (Score:3, Insightful)
Instead, why not plan properly so that electricity shortages don't happen?
As an aside, I don't think many people will take kindly to having their thermostats adjusted by an outside force. Being told "no" by technology tends to make people angry, even if it's for the greater social good. Ever seen a person get mad at a red traffic light? They don't realize that a red traffic light is not "the man" telling them no. It's a helpful, sensible warning that the cross traffic has a green light.
Feeling the Draft (Score:3, Insightful)
I would liken the issue to the the
faraday? (Score:5, Funny)
They want sockets to have Internet addresses too (Score:5, Informative)
That wasn't feasible at the time, as they would have quickly run out of available addresses, but now with IPv6 that's not such a problem anymore. I expect that the proposal will resurface again soon.
Re:They want sockets to have Internet addresses to (Score:2)
"its the machine that goes PING!"
"where is it?" where is that sound coming from??"
"its in all our wall sockets, mate. nothing you can do about it."
Re:They want sockets to have Internet addresses to (Score:2)
Oh... I want. (Score:3, Interesting)
So long as they don't know what they are turning off, I get something for the added inconvenience, and I specifically give them access rights myself: I have no qualms with that.
Though a massive solar array in death valley would probably be easier... it g
Why not just watch the frequency. (Score:4, Interesting)
It wouldn't be hard to develop a small micro-controller driven box that would watch the mains supply frequency and apply small adjustments to a thermostat setting as required.
Why not build more capacity? (Score:5, Insightful)
You know the one thing that I really don't understand is saving energy via force, and not via using technology. Actually I really don't understand the whole drive to just save energy as saving energy doesn't necessarily even mean saving environment. We have the technology, we have had for long, to solve all our energy problems without sacrificing environment or economy. So why not build more nuclear power? It's environmentally friendly and economic. From western countries, France and Finland are both building new next generation plants, British government is leaning on building more and even in Sweden, who after the Chernobyl, made an alarmist decision to give up nuclear power, is starting to discuss on reverting that decision.
So why not? Why not build more capacity to California and other parts of US? That way you could have your all the energy you need in low price and in time you could shut down your coal and oil power generation plants and take part in struggle against global warming. That would be a real solution to a problem, not a act to play more time, as is this proposition to take over the thermostats.
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It's not cost effective. I'm from Australia, but I feel I can still answer your question because my father has worked in the electricity industry and explained it all to me as a kid. Here in Melbourne, we have a few days a year of blackouts, typically. This is because in the peak of summer, the grid gets overloaded and rolling blackouts are implemented. Now, for the rest of the year, capacity is plentiful - the few days of overload
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Because that capacity is only needed for a very short period annually, which means the amortized cost of the plants in extremely high - far too high to afford. Kinda like buying a brand new pickup truck, and then only using it to purchase your Christmas tree and a couple of weeks later to haul it away.
Like most systems, the power grid is designed handle the maximum average load - not the maximum possible spikes. Even if w
In South Africa (Score:2, Insightful)
Actually we (the public) don't call it that. Eskom, the only electricity supplier (who just managed to hike rates by 14%) call it that. And the blackouts, sorry, load shedding, take place at random times. This results in businesses like small theatres without the means to buy generators sometimes losing lots of money, and Eskom can't be sued.
This post is sounding like a parody of "in Soviet Russia", but the sad thing is it is not.
How long before... (Score:3, Insightful)
Anytime time some one further regulates our lives someone will find a way around it. The best way to control demand for a limited resource is to increase the price during peak periods. Once the price gets high enough people will actually start to see the cost savings in turning down the air conditioning or better insulating their houses.
I prefer a cooler temperature however I have spent a lot of money insulating my house and only run the air conditioning in the one room I am using. I use less power than people with uninsulated houses that air condition every room even when their thermostat is set a few degrees higher.
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Or you could not let the thermostat installation team in through the door.
This isn't the East German government. You don't have to let them in. They're not going to report you to the Stasi.
Rolling Blackouts Turn Off Thermostats Too (Score:2)
deadly to humans (Score:3, Interesting)
No way they'll put that in without me having a backup (as we do now).
You'd want to think twice (Score:2, Insightful)
As long as there is an override... (Score:2)
Everyone pays for what they use, here in atlanta with teh water issues, more and more are turning to rain collection systems and the same do it yourself attitude can be applied regarding power.
Economics? (Score:5, Insightful)
Anything to aviod solar electricity I guess. (Score:3, Insightful)
Basically PG&E is going to make about $2,000 dollars off of me because I don't use enough electricity. (maybe I need to move some pizza boxes from the office to home, no I can hear the fans in the other room at work even with the door closed)
The only debate we are having is to replace the hot water heaters or the stove with electric instead of gas so that we can increase our electric usage.
California has an electricity shortage and many of their residents are scaling back solar installations and or scheming to use more electricity and they are going to install stupid devices that can be defeated by walking down to the drugstore and getting an instant heat pad to put on the thermostat. (Of course the real nerds will put a second thermostat on the hair dryer that is pointed at the radio controlled thermostat and have it blow hot air at the thing to get the house cool. I guess I need to go patent a really obvious design and get manufacturing lined up if this stupid nanny state regulation gets passed.
Gee this a bad idea that has an obvious workaround by the dishonest and has lots of room for kickbacks and ignores the cause of the problem, I give it about an 80% chance of passing if the elected officials in Sacramento get paid their bribes^w campaign contributions.
no thank you (Score:2)
everytime there is a bright idea about how to control other peoples' lives, its usually horribly thought out and defective by design.
the only POSSIBLE way this would work is if there was a priority scheme where SOME non-critical things would be remotely controlled and some things always left locally admin'd. but that won't work as w
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They've known about their electricity supply problems for years now. This is a solution they came up with.
It doesn't surprise me, and it shouldn't surprise anyone who knows California. Or dealt with Californians moving into their community.
Already popular in some states (Score:3, Interesting)
The idea is you get a $25 credit for having this installed and then $8/hour of shutoff time and they specific times when they will not shut off your AC. I've seriously thought about it since the possible shutoff times are pretty much while I'm at work.
Communism (Score:3, Insightful)
Dr. Rosenfeld said. If you can control rotating outages by letting everyone in the state share the pain, he said, theres a lot less pain to go around.
First they're going to tell us what lightbulbs we're allowed to use, now this?
You know how many old/infirm people die every year due to the heat or cold?
Another poster had it right: We pay for a service, make the #(*& service perform like its supposed to. Stop being afraid of atom energy and build more reactors. Right now, its the safest form of energy with the greatest amount of return we can produce.
NO ONE CONTROLS MY STUFF !! /shouting (Score:3, Interesting)
Seriously. The US has to educate its citizens not to over-use energy by cooling their homes to 22C. I understand that airco is necessary in offices or workspaces, even homes at warm climates, but what is the point of moving to Miami when you have to wear winter jackets because you can freeze to death in: malls, restaurants, cars and buses, everywhere else.
Most of the US people I know down here (in Costa Rica) maintain sub 22C in their offices, then they wonder why they have allergy, cough all the time and have cold symptoms. All this at 1200m height where in a properly built house you do not need airco at all. It is sunshine out there, middle of the dry season, and I have several computers running in a room (yes I am working on all of them, and they go offline when I am done).
OH, if you come down here to visit the beaches: get a room without air-conditioning so you can enjoy the tropics as they are.
PS: I do not mean to flame anyone, I really mean that the airco overuse has to go!
My local power utility already has this - optional (Score:3, Informative)
Southern California Edison already does it (Score:3, Informative)
As others have noted, this is also done by other utility companies throughout the U.S. too. For instance, Austin Energy (in Texas) also offers a radio controlled thermostat program: http://www.austinenergy.com/Energy%20Efficiency/Programs/Power%20Partner/index.htm [austinenergy.com]
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Ban stupid government regulations first (Score:5, Insightful)
You want to ban air condition, then get the government to do so first in their own buildings. Make them come up to the same specifications they impose on commercial and private properties. Make them conserve. Down here in Georgia we are suffering from a regulation caused water shortage. Stupid rules, monolithic government agencies, and ease of filing suits with willing courts have resulted in Georgia flushing billions of gallons down stream with no study to back it up. When the recent reviews didn't turn out like the conservationist wanted they simply went to the courts and lawmakers to get their view imposed. I have two lakes near me near 20 feet down. One of which could generate electricity cleanly provided it wasn't flushing twenty times the water needed for generation down the river. Rivers which because of the volume are near flood stage meaning rains push them over their banks.
If we cannot have comfort in our own homes then something is desperately wrong with the system. We are a nation with great resources, the technology to use them efficiently and cleanly, yet at every corner some interest group gets the government to impose such heavy handed regulation that the public suffers. We are a country that fought for freedom and then began making laws to give it away. Now I bet your the type that would be screaming at government ids and government healthcare yet you turn around and want intervention?
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Wait... did I just say that? I guess it's not really that shocking.
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not wanting to be rude, but slashdot is posting some story about thermostats and meanwhile KDE 4.0 is out, but there is no story about it. or did i miss it?
Yup. You missed 'em. Here [slashdot.org] and here, [slashdot.org] for starters.
Personally, I can't believe that people are buying into this. I'm paying the utility companies for service. Failure to plan/build the appropriate infrastructure is no excuse. In short:
Failure to plan upon their part should in no way necessitate a remedy on our part.
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Failure to plan upon their part should in no way necessitate a remedy on our part.
Well, sunshine, that's how the world works, though here and in most other examples, the remedy is coming from them, not you.
Regardless of whether it is poor planning, poor policy, poor enforcement, or some uncontrollable outside force (greedy people chilling McMansions while they're at work, for example), power is a finite resource. It runs out when it runs out. This is an unavoidable fact. If there is no power to give, your philosophical argument is meaningless. Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Did you suppo
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KDE 4.0 Is Out [slashdot.org]
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Most of your other examples don't deal with scarcity. If you change the facts to 500 cable subscribers on a line that can only support 480, then yes, there is going to be some bandwidth throttling or random dropouts. That's basically what you've got here.
If there are six light bulbs and seven people needing one, someone's not getting a lightbulb, but it's probably not fair to let one
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I trust the power companies wants to sell you as much electricity as they possibly can...
Well that right there is one way they could abuse it. Imagine your thermostat altering your settings by a few degrees around the time most people go to sleep, and setting itself back before they expect you to wake up: all of a sudden your power bill is a fair bit higher, for reasons unknown to you...
I'm not saying I think that's all too likely, but I just want to point out that it is possible.
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How is avoiding the real problem a "good idea"?
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They might try this, but they'd get caught (they always do), and there would be
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Oh please. The first time someone dies from "heat overexposure" because their thermostat was moved from 72 to 74, I'll fork over the liability payout myself. Anybody who is that fragile needs to be in an intensive care unit.
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~S