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Power Upgrades Hardware Technology

Startup Offers Peltier-On-Chip 70

Posted by timothy from the chill-man-it's-cool-it's-cool dept.
LowSNR writes "The South Carolina based startup Nextreme, Inc. is developing technology to put Peltier Coolers in chip packages, according to an Ars Technica report. The tiny coolers could be situated on top of local hotspots on the die and pump heat away through a package pin to the motherboard. Also, the Seebeck Effect allows the waste heat to be used to be harvested to generate/reclaim power."
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Startup Offers Peltier-On-Chip More

Startup Offers Peltier-On-Chip

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  • Cool. (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    That's cool.

    Har har.
  • I think the heat recycling aspect itself shows some promise, and the design being built into the chip, but we have to consider that the same kind of designers that use these are just as likely to push the chip beyond the capabilities in terms of the total heat reduction for the system.

    People who tend to overclock or use overclocked chips, will frequently push the envelope even further if they think they can get away with it.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Naughty Bob ( 1004174 )
      Both the heat recycling and heat reduction aspects of this start-up's tech work fine and would be extremely useful and practical, were it not for one small problem: The technology requires the entire CPU/GPU's circuit layout to be designed with this technology in mind. I'm betting that more pressing issues will influence the direction of chip development.

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by Nethemas the Great ( 909900 )
      Um, this isn't anything special. All a peltier is is a bloody heat pump. In this case they figured out how to selectively locate where the TEC is applied. Back in the day (mid to late 90's) they used to attach a refrigerator to the chip. I thought it was a rather novel idea until I discovered that people playing with medical equipment and/or lasers were using TECs to pump off excessive heat from their devices. I tipped off the folks over at Tom's Hardware and a few months later people playing with thes
      • I agree that it's just a heat pump.

        But it's integrated into the actual chip design, which does improve its basic operational efficiency.
    • Isn't recycling heat called "thermal runaway" and the last thing you want in a processor :-) ?
  • I imagine this would only solve the problem for the first millimeters , you'd still need a pretty big heat sink somewhere. Would this open up the door for really high frequencies or would it just optimize things a little ?

  • Yawn (Score:3, Funny)

    by skintigh2 ( 456496 ) on Thursday January 10, 2008 @06:15PM (#21992362)
    Call me when they put a miniature Sterling engine on a chip and use it to recharge the battery.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Yvanhoe ( 564877 )
      This 90's video gallery website show you various MEMS device, including a steam engine (2nd video) http://www.memx.com/movie_gallery.htm [memx.com]

      They use electrical power to vaporize water and generate mechanical momentum for MEMS device. I am not sure if the water circuit is opened or closed. If closed, this would qualify as a Stirling engine.

  • Do you have Peltier on a chip? (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Someone let him out! [wikipedia.org]
  • Gee I had this idea about 20 years ago, & I suspect many readers here also had a similar sense of deja vu when they read this! Oh well, more power to them...
    • "more power to them..." Hah!

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by geekoid ( 135745 )
      did you do it? did you figure out how to get it onto the chip?
      Having an idea doesn't count for squat.

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by scottrocket ( 1065416 )
        Having an idea doesn't count for squat.

        No, having an idea is where it all begins. Not doing anything with that idea is what's worth squat. Guilty!

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Nullav ( 1053766 )
        It counts for a lot, provided you have enough to file a patent.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Namlak ( 850746 )

      Gee I had this idea about 20 years ago, & I suspect many readers here also had a similar sense of deja vu when they read this! Oh well, more power to them...
      Building an anti-gravity hovercraft is a good idea!

      OK, here's your chance again - GO!

    • Re: (Score:1, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      I attended a conference in November of '06 (IMECE in Chicago) and sat in on a presentation by two Motorola researchers who seemed to have already developed something similar. Anyhow, the major problem with these materials is that they aren't very efficient because of the simple fact that electrons carry heat. These devices just aren't practical with current materials.

  • Useful, but not new (Score:5, Informative)

    by smellsofbikes ( 890263 ) on Thursday January 10, 2008 @06:34PM (#21992600) Journal
    Peltier devices on-chip have been used for a while, whenever temperature variations are intolerable. Some examples: Analog Devices AD595 thermocouple amp [analog.com], which uses in-chip thermal calibration to ensure a cold junction of known temperature, and many voltage regulators and switching supply controllers that use temperature-controlled bandgaps as their voltage reference.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by evanbd ( 210358 )

      I've only glanced at the data sheet, but unless I'm severely mistaken, that chip *compensates* for temperature rather than controlling it. Every other thermocouple CJC chip I've seen does the same basic thing. Temperature compensated voltage references follow the same basic patter of balancing a bandgap or zener with a Vbe drop and possibly some second order effects. The very best such chips (eg the Linear Technology LTZ1000; I'm sure there are other similar ones) use a heater. Temperature-controlled cr

      • It's possible I'm wrong, but that's what I've been told by coworkers who design bandgap references. I don't do chip design or know that much about it: I know they're heated, but coworkers indicated they were actively cooled as well, if necessary.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by evanbd ( 210358 )

          I certainly wouldn't say it's not done... but I've never seen an example of it. For inexpensive devices, the temperature isn't controlled, but the coefficient is balanced against something with the opposite coefficient. For more expensive devices, the temperature is controlled and kept above ambient because that's easier and cheaper. I can't imagine any case where that wouldn't work, unless perhaps you needed to run in a very hot environment -- but then I would think you'd want to cool the entire enclos

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by raidfibre ( 1181749 )
      Cold-point compensation does not mean it actively heats or cools anything on the chip.
      Check the data sheet.
      http://www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/Data_Sheets/AD594_595.pdf [analog.com]
    • Anyone know what happened here? It was a pretty big announcement at the time but then *poof*, and nothing seems to have public come of it. http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT6800933 [google.com]
  • The article says it's in North Carolina, not SC. Much as I wish it were here...
  • I confess this is not my area of expertise so I have my alabaster underpants in readiness for a good flaming.

    But does this mean they can cool the chip without the heat sink/fan combo, or will they still need some method a pumping the heat around the chip to the areas that can process it. I mean comparatively the chip is quite big and we are only looking at one top layer of it surely?

    I can hear my computer whirring as I type, anything that offers hope to get rid of that noisy thing gets my vote.
    • > alabaster underpants

      I think you mean asbestos - possibly less conductive of heat and more conducive of comfort (relatively speaking).

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by rcw-work ( 30090 )

      But does this mean they can cool the chip without the heat sink/fan combo

      Heat engines, thermocouples, etc. don't harness "hot". They harness the flow of heat. If you do not provide any place for that heat to move to, they can't do anything.

      Now, if you just want to get rid of that noisy fan, get a heat pipe and have it move the heat from your CPU to your chassis (if suitable) or to a radiator cooled by a much larger, slower, quieter fan.

    • Well, not really. Even an ideal heat pump could only push the energy from here to there. More realistic ones however produce some heat of their own.

      That's right. Your fridge doesn't just move energy from inside to the radiator outside, it actually dissipate a little extra heat of its own. If you left the fridge door open, it would actually heat the kitchen a little. An air conditioner, ditto, that electricity it uses has to go somewhere, which means heating the outside air. It's no different for a Peltier.
    • i think the problem is that most people seem to be focused on this as applied to CPUs and the cooling of CPUs. it simply doesn't seem practical for that because the heat generated by CPUs is generally very high. seems to me that the best applications would be small chips that serve other functions. say you've got a chip that gets just a little too hot for its environment, dump some heat out into the printed circuit board. it could save manufacturing costs versus gluing a small heat sink to the chip.

      but
  • As cool as it is to use the peltier effect to cool chips, in no way is the "reclaimed heat" going to be enough to generate any significant amount of power.

    I don't mind companies spouting marketing drivel, because that's what companies with marketing departments do. But this whole "fake green" thing that's going on recently has got to stop.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Khyber ( 864651 )
      Never heard of a Sterling Engine before, have you?

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Pyrrus ( 97830 )
        Never heard of carnot efficiency before, have you?

        Any energy recovered from this small temperature differential would be miniscule compared to the initial cost of putting a stirling engine in a computer. It costs energy to run the peltier plate as a heat pump, if you want low power it'd be less difficult and cheaper to just build a bigger heat sink.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Khyber ( 864651 )
          The thermal difference is enough to power the LEDs on a PC tower with a sterling engine.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by gd2shoe ( 747932 )
      Sorry, as long as the "Environmentally friendly" movement is underway, we'll need to endure the "fake green" thing. We can't have our cake and eat it too, apparently.

      It's actually an outgrowth of the "me too" syndrome. As long as being environmentally friendly is cool, pretending to be environmentally friendly will be cool too.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Arimus ( 198136 )
        If you don't have your cake before you eat it doesn't that mean you're guilty of eating someone else's cake?

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by gd2shoe ( 747932 )

          If you don't have your cake before you eat it doesn't that mean you're guilty of eating someone else's cake?
          ?????

          I can see that you're trying to be funny, but I can't tell if you're making a joke on topic or not.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Arimus ( 198136 )
            It was a comment on the comment about having your cake and eating it...

            It was also posted prior to the regulation morning cup of coffee.
  • ... Cool Ranch chips?

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by AVIDJockey ( 816640 )
      Wow... I just needed to reply to myself to say that I'm truly ashamed to have written that.
  • Let's see, "cooler" is slang for prison, Leonard Peltier is being held at Leavenworth, so this company is offering little Leavenworth models in potato chip packages? Excellent.
  • I once thought of tossing one of these thermoelectric (TEC) coolers in my system to try and help with waste heat, but the trouble with the seebeck effect is that it reaches a cutoff point fairly quickly. You see, the "cool" side of the tec doesn't remain cool, it heats up as well meaning that the temperature difference grows gradually smaller and smaller, which in turn reduces output of voltage and becomes a vicious cycle, building up more and more heat on the hot side.

    TEC's are great when using the pel
    • The efficiency of the Seebeck effect is limited by the thermal isolation of the heat source and heat sink. In a macroscale system, this generally isn't very good. In a microsystem it can be extremely good. Vacuum packaging would help even more, but that is probably overkill here.
  • Do peltiers still suffer from occasional reversals where the sides flip cooling/heating?

    • TMK, only if you reverse the electrical polarity to the junction. If you over drive the junction, you'll lose the effect and both sides will heat up.

  • I read somewhere many years ago that the problem with peltier coolers is that they are active devices and as such are susceptible to failure. When they do they basically become an insulator rather than a conductor of heat and you could fry your hardware. At least with heatsink + fans if the fan fails the heatsink will still perform some passive cooling and the chip will heat up gradually and your temp sensors would have a bit more time to react. In fact your fan monitors would sense the fan failure even

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Molochi ( 555357 )
      Actually It's worse than that. The net heat output of a peltier cooled chip is higher. So you need even more of whatever cooling you were going to use to begin with. So the fan can still fail as well.

      The popularized advantage of peltier cooled cpus was that, with very efficient cooling (say, water cooling and a well ventilated computer room), you could get the cpu below ambient temperature, sometimes below freezing temp. It was an "easy" way to get a "stable" 1GHz out of an old Slot A Athlon

      The concern abou

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