US To Extinguish (Most) Incandescent Bulb Sales By 2012 1106
Engadget has noted a report in the New York Times that that the US has "passed a law barring stores from selling incandescent light bulbs after 2012. 'Course, the EU and Australia have already decided to ditch the inefficient devices in the not-too-distant future, but a new energy bill signed into law this week throws the US into the aforementioned group. Better grab a pack of the current bulbs while you still can — soon you'll be holding a sliver of history."
Misleading summary (shocking, I know) (Score:5, Informative)
Government Efficiency (Score:5, Interesting)
However, I am again disturbed by the ability of our politicians to play the "ban it" game in order to appear capable of taking action. They are getting exquisitely efficient at banning various things we use in everyday life. Really, if politicians ban something every time they need to raise $100'000, in a couple of decades they probably will have banned procreation.
Seriously though, if they really cared about the efficiency of the bulbs, and wanted to spend more than a passing gaze at dealing with the problem, I think they would've refrained from such massive ridiculousness. Granted, incadescents are not efficient, but CFLs don't yet have as complete and warm a spectrum (I use them everywhere though), and many decorative light fixtures simply require incadescents.
Wouldn't it have made more sense, to pressure the market economically, rather than legally, and simply levy enough of a tax on the incadescent bulbs, to make them more expensive than the fluorescents, while at the same time using the money to subsidize the LED and CFL technologies?
Re:Government Efficiency (Score:5, Interesting)
If the bulbs were not made unavailable (banned) then there are those that would continue to use them because of either some perceived benefit of incandescents over CFLs, an irrational aversion to change, or for no other reason than to be contrary.
The additional market for CFLs that this will generate will create consumer demand for CFLs with as identical a color spectrum as physically possible to an incandescent bulb. I've got several of these bulbs in my house and the light is plenty warm enough for me.
Passing a ban on inefficient technology is orders of magnitude easier than passing a 'new tax'. Try that and you'll get the GOP all up your ass about increasing the tax burden on the working class. Besides, CFLs have enough critical mass for the industry to innovate without requiring government subsidy, and the market for LED lighting is potentially so ginormous that industry will take the chance on the investment required.
Bans are easier than taxing? (Score:3, Insightful)
Not that it ever stopped them before, but that would be pretty piss-poor logic. The Democratic/sane person response would be: "No, the working class will SAVE MONEY by using compact fluorescents. We're just making the savings a little more obvious and up-front." Yeah, the GOP prides itself on being anti-tax, but I don't really understand how can BANNING something be easier than taxing it. Surely there
Re:Government Efficiency (Score:5, Insightful)
Of COURSE CFLs are more efficient over time (both in terms of energy consumption and replacement cost). This isn't controversial at all, it's a plain fact. (Granted, the cost of disposal eats into those savings, but you're still ahead of the game in the long run.) It's also irrelevant to most people when they make a purchase. Without the force of a ban, those people will still continue to buy the cheaper incandescents.
Re:Misleading summary (shocking, I know) (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, the new law doesn't ban incandescants (which would be an incredibly bad law); it merely sets efficiency standards where before there were none (which is actually a pretty good law). And G.E. claims to be well on the way [news.com] to making incandescants that will meet the new standards.
(By the way, the standards that phase in over the next few years are still well below the efficiency of a CFL. Even the backstop provisions for 2020 -- 45 lumens per watt -- are at the low end of what a CFL can do. So if G.E. can make incandescants compete with CFL, as they say they can, then there's no issue here.)
Also, there are a bunch of exemptions and exceptions. Those allegedly-decorative candelabra bulbs have a different standard (nothing above 60W). Many special-purpose lights are exempt, and in some cases that just means the light has to be marketed as "for such-and-such use only".
But by all means, let's all panic.
What? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:What? (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Personally, I hate the CF lights. They ALWAYS give me big pounding headaches. Thank god I have my own office at work where I can turn off the fluorescent lights and turn on my circa 1940 lamp
Re:What? (Score:5, Interesting)
There... are. I have a 32W full spectrum CF light in a lamp by my computer that I affectionately call my "artificial sun". With an effective brightness equivalent to a 120W incandescent, it's quite good at keeping me awake long hours.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Fluorescents by their nature are not full-spectrum. They have tall, narrow spikes right in the middle of where our eyes are sensitive to red, green, and blue, and virtually no output anywhere else in the spectrum.
It's enough to fool human eyes, and not much else. I wouldn't be surprised if pets had trouble seeing by fluorescent light.
Re:What? (Score:5, Informative)
If you don't believe me, check out this study that Popular Mechanics did earlier this year on the color temperature and subjective quality of light bulbs.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/home_journal/home_improvement/4215199.html [popularmechanics.com]
For their subjective part of the test, they put in 3 interior designers in color-neutral rooms and had them comment on what they thought about the light sources. Going into the test, the designers said they did not like the quality of color from CFL's, but by the end every single designer rated the CFL's higher than the incandescent bulb. To say the least, they were surprised and have changed their out-dated CFL hating ways.
Also, here's some tips I've learned from installing hundreds of CFL's:
-Don't buy the cheap ones, they frequently buzz. Go with name brands like Phillips or GE, I have yet to have a problem with them.
-Don't install bulbs on dimmer switches, unless they're specifically designed for dimmers - they'll last only a couple weeks.
-Some large CFL's can't be mounted upside down, beware.
-CFL's don't play well with motion sensor activation - they will burn out in months.
-IKEA recycles CFL's for free! (and batteries too)
-The vanity light shaped CFL's currently have a fairly long warm-up time, about 30 seconds. I hope they keep this, as I don't like blinding light first thing in the morning. The gradual warm-up is nice at 5am.
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By the way, I like CFL's because they run a LOT cooler, which helps on hot summer days.
If you use the rigth bulb, they're not bad... (Score:3, Interesting)
Stupid idea (Score:5, Informative)
Re:If you use the rigth bulb, they're not bad... (Score:5, Funny)
Compact fluorescent bulbs contain Mercury (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Compact fluorescent bulbs contain Mercury (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, BS. I bought a sunlamp for my wife and was immediately struck by the cold, ugly light coming out of it. And then one day I was walking into the room where we'd put it and was noticing how awful it looked - until I realized that the light was turned off and it was sunlight streaming in. Yeah, that "ugly, artificial" light was identical to natural sunlight. It just looked odd because it was a fluorescent lamp and I expected it to look odd. That "warm, yellow" color? In blackbody terms, that's really a "cold, yellow color" when compared to sunlight. You think it looks warm because we associate "red" with "hot", but that's just not relevant here.
Pick smarter friends. The current crop seem to be idiots [snopes.com].
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
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Well crap (Score:4, Funny)
Lead in CFL Bulbs (Score:3, Insightful)
Done right: Efficiency, not specific technology (Score:5, Insightful)
Too soon (Score:3, Insightful)
Hope you don't . . . (Score:3, Interesting)
tolerate cold well.
lights), cause that uses a lot MORE energy in a fluorescent.
This is just silly. Sure, use the more efficient fluorescents
where they make sense, but don't ban all incandescents just because
the commercials on HGTV keep telling you it will save the universe.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Get over yourself. No, current CFL's don't work that well in extreme cold. Normal CFL bulbs do take longer to warm up, and you can get sealed CFL's designed for outdoor use. Ditto for dimmer switches. I've only seen the low-wattage dimmable bulbs at Home depot, but they do exist.
Traffic lights? Dude, new traffic lights have been using LED's almost exclusively for a long time
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need to use light bulbs outside, since fluorescents don't tolerate cold well.
It was 5F this morning and the lights in my garage sure came on quickly and brightly enough. Hint: don't buy the cheapest bulbs you can find and put them outside.
need a light that turns on and off frequently (like traffic lights), cause that uses a lot MORE energy in a fluorescent
Breakeven for a fluorescent lamp is about 23 seconds [kwc.org]. After that, it's all profit.
light spectrum is also important (Score:5, Interesting)
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GE (Score:3, Insightful)
goodbye lava lite (Score:4, Funny)
An antidote for FUD (Score:5, Informative)
The main thing to do when purchasing CFLs is to avoid the junk that's sold at Wal-Mart, Meijer, Home Depot, etc. Also, try to look for bulbs with the Energy Star label, which guarantees that they have electric ballasts (instant-on, no hum), lifespan ratings of at least 6000 hours, and at least a two-year warranty.
I order all of my bulbs online from 1000bulbs.com. While I've had a few issues with bulbs prematurely burning out, but replacements are always quickly sent, free of charge, without requiring me to ship the defective bulbs back.
I haven't bought an incandescent bulb in over two years, and have helped friends and family switch as well. Since I buy bulbs online I can get them in any variant needed - including dimmable, "warm," flame-shaped bulbs for the light fixture in the dining room at my mom's house; PAR-30 shaped bulbs for the cans in my in-law's house (they are far from being environmentalists, but were sick of incandescents burning out, and have been very pleased in the six months they've had the CFLs so far); and 5100K "daylight" bulbs for some areas in my house.
Politics aside, please actually do some research before spouting off FUD.
Re:An antidote for FUD (Score:4, Interesting)
I guarentee that 90% of all CFL bulbs that have been disposed of over the past 5 years by consumers went into the trash bin and NOT a special bulb recycle bin. This is a trend that will not change as people are lazy.
* It is true that some CFLs don't live up to their rated life. All Energy Star compliant bulbs are required to include at least a two-year manufacturer warranty (source [custhelp.com]).
Most bulbs bought by americans are in the local stores and home improvement stores, they dont order high quality, they grab what is cheapest on the display. Most cheap crap CFL's die early and overall suck with long warm up times and nasty coloration.
* CFLs are available in all sorts of variants, including candle (regular and candelabra base) [1000bulbs.com], globe [1000bulbs.com], reflector [1000bulbs.com], three-way [1000bulbs.com], etc.
* CFLs are available in a wide range of color temperatures, from 2700K ("warm" incandescent) to 5100K ("daylight"). Many CFLs are indistinguishable from their incandescent equivalents (that is, until you touch them and don't get burned).
Really? then why do most CFL's get hot enough to be painful? EVERY SINGLE CFL in my home is at least 150 degrees at the ballast, bulb base.
* Dimmable CFLs [1000bulbs.com], which work on standard dimmer switches, exist. While they do not have exactly the same dimming behaviors as incandescents, I've found them to be more than adequate.
I call BS, I have tried to find dimmable CFL's that dont suck. and have yet to find any. even the specalty $49.99 each dimmables from the specalty online shops are no better than the crap GE bulb for $9.25 at Walmart. None ofthese work in home automation or normal dimmers. Give me make and model numbers of what you have that work perfect in dimmers and I'll try it to prove you right.
I would LOVE to have CFL's out there and reccomend them to clients. but I cant. I cant find ANY CFL lamps that are worth using in a upscale home or even a home where people like dimmers and instant on light. the biggest savings would be in outdoor lighting wher you have 500 watt bulbs as the norm and CFL still fails. I need motion lights to be on at 80% bright in -5C in less than
We'll be getting our bulbs over the border (Score:4, Funny)
Alcohol, Check
Prescription Drugs, Check
Other Drugs, Check
Light Bulbs, Check
Business Opportunity (Score:3, Interesting)
Just like going to a hamfest -or- vintage electronics show/flea market, you too can set up shop next to the vintage vacuum tube sellers...
Actually, Incandescents Aren't Banned (Score:3, Informative)
With regard to the law, the version sent to the President for signature can be found here [gpo.gov].
In fact, the law does not actually prohibit the sale of indcandescent bulbs by 2012. Rather, beginning in Section 312, the law sets efficiency standards, phasing in over time, that current incandescent bulbs cannot meet, but doesn't specify the type of bulb that should be used. Interestingly, it also includes the following provision in Section 321(h)(1) (found on page 95 of the document I linked to):
"REPORT ON MERCURY USE AND RELEASE.--Not later than
1 year after the date of enactment of this Act, the Secretary,
in cooperation with the Administrator of the Environmental
Protection Agency, shall submit to Congress a report describing
recommendations relating to the means by which the Federal
Government may reduce or prevent the release of mercury
during the manufacture, transportation, storage, or disposal
of light bulbs."
USA Today's story [usatoday.com] does a good job of summarizing this issue. {ProfJonathan}
They're not even light bulbs. (Score:4, Insightful)
text of the bill (Score:5, Informative)
The section discussed here is about as long as TFA. It's 9021 of HR 3221 ("Short Titles.--This Act may be cited as the ``New Direction for
Energy Independence, National Security, and Consumer Protection Act'')
(http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/useftp.cgi?IPaddress=162.140.64.182&filename=h3221eh.txt&directory=/diska/wais/data/110_cong_bills [gpo.gov],
In it, you can see that the only bans are based on efficiency standards, not type of manufacture. For example, 100 watt lamps that do not provide 60 lumens/watt or better are banned. Issues of color spectrum are anticipated and basic measures put into place.
Now if we could apply this method to fuel efficiency we'd actually start making a dent.
Relevant excerpts:
PART 2--LIGHTING EFFICIENCY
SEC. 9021. EFFICIENT LIGHT BULBS.
(a) Prohibition.--
(1) Regulations.--Not later than 1 year after the date of enactment of this Act, the Secretary of Energy shall issue regulations--
(A) prohibiting the sale of 100 watt general service incandescent lamps after January 1, 2012, unless those lamps emit at least 60 lumens per watt;
(B) prohibiting the sale of general service lamps manufactured after the effective dates shown in the table below that do not meet the minimum efficacy levels (lumens/watt) shown in the following table:
Minimum Efficacy Levels and Effective Dates
Minimum Efficacy
Lumen Range (Lumens/Watt) Effective Dates
200-449 15 1/1/2014
450-699 17 1/1/2014
700-999 20 1/1/2013
1000-1500 22 1/1/2012
1501-3000 24 1/1/2012
(C) after January 1, 2020, prohibiting the sale of general service lamps that emit less than 300 percent of the average lumens per watt emitted by 100 watt incandescent general service lamps that are commercially available as of the date of enactment of this Act;
(D) establishing a minimum color rendering index (CRI) of 80 or higher for all general service lamps manufactured as of the effective dates in subparagraph (B); and
(E) prohibiting the manufacture or import for sale in the United States of an adapter device designed to allow a lamp with a different base to fit into a medium screw base socket manufactured after January 1, 2009.
(2) Exemptions.--The regulations issued under paragraph (1) shall include procedures for the Secretary to exempt specialty lamps from the requirements of paragraph (1). The Secretary may provide such an exemption only in cases where the Secretary finds, after a hearing and opportunity for public comment, that it is not technically feasible to serve a specialized lighting application, such as a military, medical, public safety
application, or in certified historic lighting applications using bulbs that meet the requirements of paragraph (1). In addition, the Secretary shall include as an additional criterion that exempted products are unlikely to be used in the general service lighting applications.
(3) Additional lamps types.--
(A) Manufacturers of rough service, vibration service, vibration resistant, appliance, shatter resistant, and three-way lamps shall report annual
sales volume to the Se
Tax, don't ban (Score:3, Interesting)
Sucks for migraines (Score:3, Informative)
There are energy saving applications that CFs are no good at. "On demand" lighting, that is turned on for only a few minutes while you are in the room (florescent lights of all kinds hate rapid power cycling). Dimmers. Winter. Incandescent lights are great for winter. The light is warmer both literally (90% infrared) and psychologically.
Fortunately, banning a particular technology, while boneheaded, is not nearly as boneheaded as mandating a particular technology. People with flicker sensitive migraines can purchase LED lighting - although it is currently quite a bit more expensive. I suppose christmas lights will have to go the LED route also. Sigh. At least the expense will discourage those gaudy "cover the entire house with tiny lights on 2 inch spacing" displays.
I am really sick of this nanny state business.
Re:CF save energy, but lack functionality... (Score:5, Informative)
e.G.
http://www.vosslighting.com/storefrontB2BWEB/browse.do?action=refresh_browse&ctg_id=547 [vosslighting.com]
Re:CF save energy, but lack functionality... (Score:5, Informative)
Problem is decent LED lights for home fixtures cost around $70.00 a bulb. the cheap crap off ebay fail with some dead led's in the array or other failures like color shifting within a few weeks.
I have 4 ceiling cans in the family room with about $380.00 in LED PAR30 bulbs that are bright enough to be 60 watt replacements. Wife loves the coloration of the warm white and I like how I can dim them down as much as regular bulbs.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Dim bulbs (Score:4, Informative)
(Dim bulbs. Oh, the temptation to make a political joke is strong...)
Re:Dim bulbs (Score:5, Informative)
With CFL, unlike incandescent, you get what you pay for. If you are going to put a bulb outside, get ones meant for being outside. If you need ones that dim, buy the ones that dim.
The biggest problem I've had in switching my whole house to CFL is the lack of non-cold-cathode candelabra lights. They are all cold cathode and tend to be 4w or so, whereas a lot of light fixtures that need them expect 30w bulbs (so more like 8-9w in CFL terms)... so you just don't get enough light unless you are using full-size bulbs.
Dimmable CF bulbs exist (Score:3, Informative)
Actually there are dimmable CF bulbs [wikipedia.org]. At present they don't work quite as well as incandescents for dimming applications but they do exist and work acceptably for many applications. They typically cannot dim all the way to no light, with most stopping at about 20%. Many are reported to buzz when dimmed as well though I've not experienced this myself yet. They also are quite expensive still. A 3W dimmable (equivalent to a 15W incande
Re:CF save energy, but lack functionality... (Score:5, Funny)
Wrong, they do dim. After a few months they don't give that much light any more but
the dimming is so slow so you don't notice (until you bump into walls).
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
In all seriousness though, you're right that completely banning sale of incandescent bulbs is a bit extreme. Almost all my lights are CFLs or LEDs, but they can't replace everything. Not yet anyways.
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Its not easy to find (at least locally) dimmable CFLs but I can't remember ever finding a high-lumen (700+) LED bulb that can dim at all.
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http://www.ccrane.com/lights/led-light-bulbs/cc-vivid-led-light-bulb.aspx [ccrane.com]
Re:wow (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:wow (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem with socialism is that it assumes (contrary to 5 000 years of human history) that people are naturally good natured and hard working. Any communist system depends on everyone working for the greater good since the lazy guy gets just as much as the harder working. The result is an inefficient system
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
You're on Slashdot. Capitalism and Microsoft are evil; Apple can do no wrong; you should throw out your TV; and George Bush is the root of all evil. Stop trying to make sense here.
(Thanks for making sense here.)
--Mike
Re:wow (Score:4, Insightful)
It isn't really so much of a system as an eventuality. Unless you work really hard to avoid it, you'll end up with capitalism.
The question, therefore, is how to best create a system that deals with capitalism's considerable shortcomings (externalities, increasing wealth disparities, etc.) without excessively stifling its creative force.
Re:wow (Score:5, Interesting)
There's no one-step easy solution. CFLs save energy, yes, but they're not perfect. They won't cure the world's ills.
I for one am glad to see legislation forcing energy conservation, because without it, there's a significant portion of the US population that will refuse to conserve energy because it requires effort on their part, and another (overlapping) portion that do the opposite of what people suggest that they do, because they're rebels and good 'merkins who'll do the opposite of what people say "because they can". People need to be protected from their own stupidity sometimes.
Re:wow (Score:4, Interesting)
You still need to get your boiler serviced, seal your windows in the winter, insulate your house, trade in your stupid-ass SUV for something more efficient, turn off lights you're not using, install a programmable thermostat, purchase energy-star rated appliances when it's time to replace them, carpool, set your computers to go to sleep when idle, etc etc etc.
Just wondering, if where I live (in France) all the power I consume comes from a nuclear power plant, does it still matter if I do all of that?
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And using less energy is always a better idea, if for no other reason than your electric bill goes down.
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Home automation can save you an additional 60% of energy cos
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I don't get this. I switched to CFLs 5 or 6 years ago, and the color has never bothered me, even back when CFLs were in their infancy. In fact, I even have a few of the "blue" 6500K "daylight" bulbs and I love the cleaner whiter color. It's a little surprising at first but I actually prefer them to the dirty dingy yellow that incandescents produce.
Admittedly, CFLs don't work with motion sensors, as I found out the hard way. However, by 2012 the people making motion sensors (a
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CFLs are not a perfect technology, yes. There are lower-mercury lights on the market, but people don't buy them due to the additional expense and non-tangible benefit. LEDs are certainly the way things are looking to go; the State
Re:wow (Score:4, Insightful)
there is always a better technology just around the corner and those who oppose energy efficiency often suggest we wait for it. They never come, and when they look close, they always bump us to yet another further-off tech. CFLs work now, you can buy them now, everywhere.
Re:wow (Score:4, Interesting)
"Does the government have the right to ban incandescents for the public good?"
It shouldn't even be:
"What things are inefficient enough to justify banning?"
It should be:
"Do all people appropriately incorporate the environmental externalities of their decisions?"
Any attempts to address the problem that avoid that question, are going to be haphazard -- and probably counterproductive -- approximations of what we do want. The reason is that when you say something is "wasteful" -- and thus hurting the environment -- you're making a judgment you literally cannot be qualified to make. Efficiency is "benefit provided per cost expended". I accept that you can tell me the cost expended, but the benefit provided exists purely in the mind of the user.
With that in mind, proposing a ban on incandescents is no different from:
-Banning all foods except enriched gruel.
-Banning PS3s since "You can just get a Wii and BluRay isn't that good anyway."
-Banning living more than 20 miles from work since, hey, not many people use public transportation.
Furthermore a ban on one thing you deem "wasteful" does not change the incentive structure for the infinite number of other changes people could be making in their lives. If all you do is save me money on lighting, I'll get extra free money and just waste fossil fuels in some other way. What energy-free thing do you think people are going to do with the extra money?
A far more robust and less annoying solution is to just assess the total environmental cost per unit of fuel consumed, add it in the form of a tax, and apply the proceeds toward sinks and abatement. Then, all decisions throughout the entire economy adjust, and you don't need to think about banning individual items. You don't need to debate which things people *really* get a benefit from. You don't need to carve out exceptions for French people who get the power from their incandescents from nuclear, or movie stars that "really" need their SUV or movie lighting. You don't need to go to environmental high priests to calculate the "total cost" of what you do, since the retail price would already do that. You don't even need to raise public awareness.
A ban on incandescents is just typical BS feel-good legislation.
***
Prediction: based on past threads, people will read this ALTERNATE SOLUTION as global warming denial, or the claim that government should do nothing.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
You mean ... like congress?
mod parent up. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:mod parent up. (Score:4, Insightful)
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I could have gotten one of those ARMs when we bought back in 2002. I knew better. I'm one of those people who are pissed that everyone who got one of those who suddenly find themselves unable to make a payment they agreed to is ge
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I would think that is a good thing and not leftist dogma. You disagree? You think it is ok for companies to deceive borrowers about what their monthly payment will be? It seems to me th
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I would think that making lending organizations tell borrowers the actual interest rate they are going to pay, how high that interest rate can go -- and that it is variable, not inflating appraisals, and that there is no escrow on taxes or insurance would be a good thing. You know - actually being honest with the consumer.
You think they're not? Let me let you in on what's been going on. I recently moved to a new house. When it came time to sign the papers, the agent took me into another room alone, away from my family
Agent: "you know, I can get you into this house with an interest only loan at HALF the monthly payment you're looking at right now, and with no money down."
Me: "What's the catch?"
Agent: "In three years, you're going to lose the house."
Buyers knew. The lenders knew. They're all fucking thieves. Fuck Countr
Re:mod parent up. (Score:4, Insightful)
No kidding. When I was a kid, I used to think that losing your house was the just about the worst possible thing that could happen to a person, and I probably would have been very supportive of a mortgage bailout. But now, I don't get what all the fuss is about. "Oh no, those PEOPLE are going to LOSE their HOUSES!" Who gives a shit? They couldn't afford those houses in the first place. That's what happens when you try to buy things you can't afford. "But it's their HOUSE!" Well, they can buy a cheaper house that they can afford, or, god forbid, RENT a house. Or even rent (the horror, the horror!) an apartment. I can't afford to buy a house either - but instead of throwing a hissyfit and demanding that the public foot the bill for an expensive house for me, I rent one that is within my means. What is so tragic about that?
To put it another way, if there were millions of people who had taken out ridiculous loans to buy McLarens and Lamborghinis, and then came crying to the public that their cars were being repossessed, and could they please have some of your tax money to pay off their car loans, the response would be a resounding, "Fuck off and die." Why is it different if they spent the money on a house? The proposals for a mortgage bailout have nothing to do with supporting the needy, but rather, they are about appeasing the greedy. In fact, I have a sort of Modest Proposal to prove it: every person who asks for a bailout should instead offered a free house of their own, as long as they must agree to live in it for at least five years. Sure, the houses are in the projects - but we know you aren't a bunch of materialistic, keeping-up-with-the-Jonses types anyway, so it shouldn't be a problem.
Owning versus renting (Score:4, Insightful)
When owning is "better" it's better because you own an asset (the house) which can appreciate in value. A house is an investment, not much different from owning stock in a company or holding a government bond and a house is usually the biggest investment most people make. A house can, and historically usually does, appreciate in value over time by a few percent per year. At least in the US (not so sure about other countries) owning a house has benefits from a taxation standpoint. You can get a significant "return" on your investment through reduced taxes. Generally speaking, owning is better than renting in the long term (greater than 10 years) for most people.
In your case if there really is a $700 difference, renting is only better if you can get a better return on your investment through other investment vehicles (stocks, etc) than you would through the appreciation of the value of the house and any tax offsets. You might be absolutely right for your particular circumstances. Owning is not always better than renting just like renting is not always better than owning. Just depends on the particulars of the situation and the investment alternatives available to you.
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Re:mod parent up. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:mod parent up. (Score:5, Insightful)
If you don't like the laws being passed, write your congressman. Until then, they're doing the job we elected them to do. If the majority of voters don't like what an elected official does, they get voted out of office. If the majority of voters find these kinds of laws inappropriate or objectionable, they'll remove them from office.
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"Wal-Mart announced yesterday that the company has blown past an ambitious goal of selling 100 million compact fluorescent light bulbs by the end of 2007 -- three months early"
Google "Wal-Mart CFL"
Re:mod parent up. (Score:5, Funny)
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Not all rednecks live in the hills, y'all.
Re:mod parent up. (Score:5, Insightful)
It seems to me that the non-"educated, thoughtful consumers" in our free market have a different value system than you do. You look at that jar of Wal*Mart pickles and see lost jobs, so you buy the local jar instead for more money. The rest of the consumers act exactly as economics predicts -- they look at the price ($3 is less than $3.50), they look at the elasticity of the product (a pickle is a pickle, whether it's from China, Mexico, or California), and they act. In this case, economics dictates that people will tend to buy the $3 Wal*Mart pickle because it's the lowest price for a highly elastic good.
I would argue that this is where our lack of "educated, thougthful" citizens actually matters. The same people who are capable of operating optimally in a free market (because the free market was designed around true, rational human behavior) fall apart when dealing with politics (because politics revolves around idealized concepts of human nature that aren't in the least bit true). This is why you can have people voting in xenophobic candidates (stop illegal immigration, stop out-sourcing of jobs overseas, etc) who then turn right around and buy imported goods from the likes of Wal*Mart. Which is the correct behavior? Neither, because "correct" is not the right word. The "natural" behavior is the latter, because price will always be the biggest factor in any economics, to the point where most everything else just factors out. The former is a mix of gullibility and wishful thinking.
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Because the store has cut so many corners to save that 50 cents that it does 75 cents worth of damage to the economy. Someone might have lost their job because the store demanded a price that was below the manufacturer's cost, so in order to cut costs, they laid people off and made the rest work harder. This decreases spending power, which hurts the economy in ge
Re:mod parent up. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:mod parent up. (Score:4, Insightful)
Social Contract.
A citizen of a government is someone who has surrendered a portion of their natural (god given) rights to state in exchange for protection of their life and liberty. This is protection from forign nations and nationals, protection from nature, and protection from our fellow man. In other words, you don't get to be selfish and act in ways that might deprive others of their safety and liberty.
Federalism implies some powers are left to the states. One area that is not is interstate trade. This is not an implied power. It's right there in black and white. The federal government gets to regulate what goods for commercial resale are moved from one state to another. We are not living under the Articles of Confederation as some Libertarians seem to think. State and national governments are co-equal.
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I think somebody forgot to let the Feds know about that.
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Mod parent up (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:wow (Score:4, Insightful)
The purpose of government is to maximise the personal wealth of those governing, at the expense of those governed.
Re:wow (Score:5, Insightful)
C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963)
Re:wow (Score:4, Informative)
BTW, it seems they contain mercury but I didn't see any information suggesting CFL's contain lead. You may also be interested in this [wikipedia.org]:
LED's not CFL's (Score:3, Informative)
The other big guys did you think this through before passing the law issue is light dimmers. Most of the incandescant replacements do not handle dimmers very well if at all and there are a scheissload of dimmers in houses.
MOD PARENT DOWN (Score:5, Informative)
As for lead content, you'd better stop using computers of any kind, because all of them use far more lead during their production than any CFLs do.
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Got a source for all your "facts"?
You talk about the toxic chemicals in CFLs. I assume you mean mercury vapour. You do know that they can be recycled right? And about the whold Vitamin D thing... incandescent lighting is not a good source of ultraviolet light which is what your body needs to product vitamin D. As far as the photography thing... I haven't noticed. I'm not a professional photographer, I'm happy with my point and shoot type camera. It works fine for me, and I don't notice a difference
Re:wow (Score:4, Interesting)
So instead, most households will just throw the bulbs away like the do incandescents. It also comes up to cost. Now, the local landfill does not charge for household waste, but I am aware that some do. For ones that do charge, there should be some way to subsidize the cost so that people are encouraged to recycle. I have often proposed a small recycling fee added to hazardous waste products, like $1 each for consumer electronics, $.25 each for CFLs, etc., that is built into the price of the product.
My experience with CFLs versus old computers has been a harsh one. I no longer use CFLs in my computer lab because of the quickness of plastic yellowing which it appears to cause. Case in point, I had a Commodore 1080 monitor sitting on a desk in the room which had advanced yellowing on surfaces exposed to the fluorescent light, including lines where shadows fell. The front of my Commodore 128D suffered the same, as did a fairly young beige Antec PC case. No more. I use a halogen now and have not noticed any yellowing in this light.
I take issue with a legislative ban on incandescents period rather than a specific energy efficiency rating. General Electric announced a technology which increases the efficiency of incandescents. I wonder if this technology ever made it out of the lab and into the market.
I want to also quickly address two of your points. Firstly, lighting color (temperature) is a big issue for photography and videography, as well as make-up. Secondly, I have included here a link to a reliable source about fluorescent lighting and depression [imdb.com] -- but in all seriousness, since different CFLs have different temperatures, it should not be a difficult leap to link those colors to psychological states.
On a personal note, I have found that cheaper fluorescents (CFL or otherwise) have a flicker which cause me to experience headaches, and that a brand available at The Home Depot called n:vision produces a series with a higher temperature and therefore whiter light which I enjoy.
Re:wow (Score:4, Insightful)
FACT: Fluorescent bulbs lead to poorer health in humans because of a lack of vitamin D production. In addition to hurting humans, this also makes them wholly unacceptable for use in animal cages because many animals (particularly reptiles) really need this....
FACT: Fluorescent bulbs contain toxic chemicals that are far worse for the environment than all the belching coal smoke from power generation.
FACT: The people who are really pushing CFLs are not the environmentalists (except a few sheep). The people who are really pushing it are the power companies because after years of mismanaging the power grids and failing to upgrade them to accommodate growing energy needs, they have run themselves into a brick wall.
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Re: (Score:3, Informative)
That's better than my results (except for very small values of less than six months). I love the colour spectrum of the GE 6500K CFLs, and bought the 100-watt-equivalent type to replace all of the overhead lighting in my apartment (10 sockets). Most of them have lasted somewhere between 1 and 4 months.
This is a relatively new building, and in three years of living there I've never had a problem with any other electrical or electronic device. Incandescent bul
Mine last longer. (Score:3, Insightful)
Check your wiring, it may be crap.
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Re:the poor reptiles (Score:4, Funny)
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