Is Your Printer Ripping You Off? 362
An anonymous reader writes "Are original inkjet cartridges really worth the high cost? Do third party refill inks do as good a job? This article looks at printers from Epson, HP, Canon and Lexmark, with a combination of original inks and the top selling third-party options, using a whole host of different papers. A panel of printer users judged the output in a blind test — the printer manufacturers may not be happy with the results!"
Definitely, definitely... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Single parent of a 15 Year Old Daughter (Score:5, Funny)
how are we supposed to advise you if you don't even say what the brand of printer is, let alone whether or not you're buying 3rd party cartridges!
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Reliability (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Reliability (Score:5, Insightful)
Reliability-Cost/benefit ratio. (Score:3, Interesting)
Depends on what kind of printer you have. The higher-quality printers you wouldn't do that.* Also the all-in-one jobs you wouldn't either (too much to lose, literally) Also one reason OEMs don't like them is that warrenty claims go through the roof, even if you void their warrenty (and we had to do that to a couple people).
*How many
Re:Reliability (Score:5, Insightful)
That's why I gave up on ink-jet printers and went with a laser. It's only b/w, but I've bought toner exactly once over the past three years. When I need a color print, I send it to Kinkos. It's not the most convenient thing in the world, but I print in color so infrequently that it really doesn't make any difference to me. If I needed to print in color frequently, I'd probably buy a color laser. Ink jet is just a huge ripoff as far as I'm concerned.
Re:Reliability (Score:5, Informative)
If there was a cheap laser that was small and had duplex, I'd consider it. But last time I had one I found that the current it drew when it started was outrageous (my monitor and all my CFL's dimmed) and that it's sleep current was significantly higher than my ink jet. So, I returned it.
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I use a cannon IP 3000 with duplex. I pay under $10/ cartridge and they last for about 1.5 reams (1500 page sides). Thats 2/3 cent/page side plus the paper (I'm picky and like my paper to be bright) which adds 2/3 cent per page side. Plus, the text looks great. Only problem is that it isn't water proof. Not sure I'm getting ripped off though.
If there was a cheap laser that was small and had duplex, I'd consider it. But last time I had one I found that the current it drew when it started was outrageous (my monitor and all my CFL's dimmed) and that it's sleep current was significantly higher than my ink jet. So, I returned it.
I have direct experence with the canon ip3000, which I upgraded to an ip5200 since as part of learning japanese I took it upon my self to label my anime discs with furigana {ruby text/pronunciation above}, and there was anotable difference between the two models. For text the ip3000 is a perfectly fine machine. I'd have to check the specs but i'm pretty sure text has not improved in at least 10 years on the canon.
At 5% yield the black cartridge should last about 500 pages. at 1500 characters per page the
Re:Reliability (Score:4, Insightful)
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Or, I had the option of buying a $130 HP LaserJet 1280. All it took was one look at the statistics on the toner cartridge for that printer to buy it. Cost of a toner cartridge: $65, with number of pages rated at around 2000. Since the vast majority of things that I print at ho
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Re:Reliability (Score:5, Informative)
Now I only use a B&W laser at home since I have no real need for colour and have the few photos I want on paper printed by a lab (almost always cheaper than printing them yourself anyway). All in all I've always found the laser to be cheaper (despite the higher initial investment), more reliable and less hassle than ink jets. For B&W of course. If you actually need colour then YMMV.
Oh and Linux compatibility is an issue for me as well. And sadly laser is often better supported nowadays.
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Just make sure there are no unpleasant surprises [dallasobserver.com].
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Even here in Europe I suppose this kind of insanity could happen in pretty much any country nowadays given the current hysteria. We can't even make fun of the good old crazy US any more
Re:Reliability (Score:5, Insightful)
Officemax/Staples/CompUSA/etc sometimes have inkjets for $30 w/ a $30 mail-in rebate. Just buy a new printer, and when the initial cartridge runs out, toss the printer and get a new one.
The whole industry pricing structure is insane.
Re:Reliability (Score:5, Interesting)
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On the other hand, Epson cartridges are much smaller to begin with, and you need head cleaning more often (because the print heads aren't changed with the cartridges?), so the ink runs out fast anyhow.
Re:Reliability (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Reliability (Score:5, Interesting)
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I print so little nowadays
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The ink cartridges that come with cheap printers have only a small amount of ink in them. So what. As the GP poster said, if the printer is $30 with a $30 rebate, all its costing you is a postage stamp. Do you really care if the "starter cartridge" is only half-full?
Reliability and Looks aren't the only issues (Score:5, Interesting)
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"that's because ink is stored in a vacuum"
No its not. Its sealed, but not at a vacuum.
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Personally I'm trying to wean myself off Dell's ridiculously expensive cartridges and refill them myself.
There seems to be a chip in the cartridge that reports how many pages are left though, so even after a refill it reports the same page number. The only question is what will happen when the counter reaches zero, and how much sooner will the printer die thanks to the refills.
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Cheers,
Dave
Sounds like me (Score:5, Informative)
Eventually I got myself an inexpensive laser (Samsung ML-1740, but there are better/cheaper ones out there now) and I've never, ever looked back. For occasional or low-volume printing it's just no contest. The toner doesn't go bad, it doesn't draw much power at idle, and it's at least as fast as my old Lexmark (feels much faster, particularly on multipage documents). It even does envelopes and sheet labels just fine (it has a "through and through" mode where it doesn't spit out on top, so it doesn't bend the labels and make them peel off).
I recouped the cost of the laser printer and the toner cartridge (factor in a toner cart with the printer purchase since they give you underloaded "starter" carts when you buy it new) probably within a year to 18 months, certainly under two years.
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And in my experience, Lexmarks are the fastest to burn through or otherwise screw up their ink cartridges. I've owned more inkjets than any sane person should for a variety of reasons, and the one I was glad to be rid of the most? A Lexmark.
Now I have a nice inexpensive Samsung laser, too, and it has been the best printer I've ever owned by miles.
Re:Reliability (Score:5, Informative)
The mechanisms in ink cartridges are a lot more complicated nowadays than they used to be. HP, for example, has the print heads built into the ink cartridges. There are also other features built into their ink cartridges that help prolong the life of their printers. You know when you start up your printer and it takes a while to clean the print heads? Almost all inkjets just spray ink out and wipe the print heads to get rid of any solid/dried debris. HP designed their ink cartridges to use up less ink when they clean the print heads (it takes noticably less time to start up an HP printer than another printer).
My concern with third party ink is that, if I wanted to top of my HP cartridges with it, will it mess up the mechanisms in the print cartridge? Will that cause further damage to the printer itself? And as the parent mentioned, the first few pages might be fine, but what about later on? Will the ink clean the print heads well enough to keep them from clogging (incidentally, this has a larger impact on printers with print heads that are built in to the printer rather than the cartridges)?
If you have a $70 printer, I guess you're not too worried about these questions. But personally, I have a relatively good quality printer that I wouldn't want to jeopardize with third party ink (cartridges).
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Hah, that should read they're more complicated than the need to be. I bought my last HP Multi-function printer specifically because it separated the heads from the ink, thinking it would save me money. Unfortunately, HP added the "feature" of electronic date expiry to the cartridges. During a late evening print job, I found that my ink was outdated, th
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Do it yourself kits can go very wrong I guess, but the company that runs our refill shop does a lot of trade with local business, so quality is required.
Only pure heroin is more expensive. (Score:5, Funny)
Original article: http://www.idg.se/2.1085/1.103164 [www.idg.se] (swedish)
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Re:Only pure heroin is more expensive. (Score:5, Funny)
We're talking about money and matter here. Anit-matter costs anti-money, so it's a different problem...
Re:Only pure heroin is more expensive. (Score:4, Funny)
Yeah, but it clogs the printer heads.
QA is not as stringent on 3rd party refills (Score:5, Informative)
For Lasers it is not as bad, but i've found the refilled cartridges to be more leaky and I had to clean out the printers on a regular basis. Also about 1/10 refills was DoA or otherwise defective.
On the other hand what HP charges for ink you would think they had to mine in on the moon. Canon printers with seperate printheads from ink resevoirs bring down the price of ink considerably.
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Yes, but for my Epson R200, the printer costs as much as 1,5 sets of original Ink. for that price i can get ~5-6 3rd Party ink.
That means: even if my Printer dies after ~2-3 cheap ink sets, the price difference allows me to just buy a new printer. (and the quality is just the same)
Ink? What ink? (Score:3, Insightful)
People think they need color for some reason. Why I'm not exactly sure. I bought a used HP LaserJet 4 several years ago off ebay, and have used the same toner cartridge since I bought it. The old HP laserjets are tanks that can spit 20,000 pages without a hitch. The components are all replaceable, and really quite easy to change the pickup rollers, etc.
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Re:Ink? What ink? (Score:5, Informative)
Disclaimer: I am not a Snapfish or HP employee, just a happy customer.
Re:Ink? What ink? (Score:5, Funny)
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http://mail.google.com/mail/help/paper/more.html [google.com]
Immediate gratification is expensive. (Score:4, Insightful)
It's quite a bit cheaper to just go down to Wal-Mart/Costco/Sam's Club with a camera card or USB stick and have the run off on a lightjet. And you get real photos (actually on photo paper, if their chemicals are okay 100-year archive life) instead of ink prints. Or wait a few days and have one of the many submit-electronically/receive-by-mail print houses do it; they're the 21st century equivalent of the old mail-in color labs.
I guess if they can't easily get out and about then they're stuck with ink, but for the vast majority of people I don't see home photo printing as a particularly economical endeavor. It's one of those things that is a lot easier and cheaper (not to mention better quality) when it's scaled up. Unless there's some real need to product photos right the hell now, like take-home photos at a party or event, it just seems like a waste.
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That's after you've spent a grand, though... (Score:3, Interesting)
At best, you're talking about a really niche market for machines like the Epson 3800 and its bigger brethren; you have to be very obsessed with quality and control (to not want to send your stuff to an inexpensive lab like York) and do a huge amount of work in very large formats (to make it uneconomical to just send it to a prolab for th
Re:Ink? What ink? What about the drivers! (Score:2, Interesting)
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Wow, you're still using an amber or green CRT? Wicked retro man!
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People think they need color for some reason. Why I'm not exactly sure. Wow, you're still using an amber or green CRT? Wicked retro man!
You nouveau geek types. Everyone knows that teletype ribbons come in one color - black! Why anyone would need more than one color ... or a TV tube ...
Wow (Score:2)
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The quality is quite amazing for both b/w and color/photos, and now I don't have to run to the store every few months when the printer was out of ink (always at the worst possible moment) or deal with messy refill-kits. Having said that, I'd assume color laser printers run out of black toner a bit sooner than an old Laserjet, if only because the toner ca
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I myself use a LaserJet 5MP, and I'm on my third toner cartridge (the first was used) after almost 4 years. I bought it for about $75. Each gets something like 3000-4000 pages, I think, and costs about $80 directly from HP. The print quality compared to inkjet is simply fantastic, even for an older printer which does at
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And have your kids taken away? (Score:2)
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You would probably save money over time by getting a color laser printer instead of a color inkjet, especially in a business setting where you're printing more frequently than most home users.
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Low-end models are for people who have low-end needs. Not everybody prints 40 page papers several times a week. You need to look for a printer that fits your needs and look at that, not look at a printer that doesn't and complain about it.
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Is that website ripping you off ? (Score:5, Funny)
click [next] to find out !
Appearance is only half the story (Score:5, Interesting)
On one hand, saying 3rd party inks don't last a long is perfect FUD -- it's something the consumer can't judge for themselves (without extensive testing). OTOH, I know the durability if the ink is (or at least was) an issue for artists, and Epson sold a special ink that lasted 100 yrs. Also, that may be a corner that some 3rd party ink manufacturers cut to reduce their costs.
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Epson sold a special ink that lasted 100 years
Actually, the higher end Epson inks, which are generally used in their printers that cost over $500, when used with certain Epson papers, are guaranteed for 100 years.
If you've ever sat down and leafed through your great-great granparent's photo albums from the early 1900's, you know what a timeless treasure it is. That's why I'd never skimp on paying for ink and paper.
For those who aren't familiar with the lifetimes of pictures, here's a brief overview,
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All in the 3rd party cartridges (Score:3, Interesting)
At the end of the day, I use new, sealed 3rd party cartridges, but you have to do your research. I've had a Canon 4200, Epson 880 and now a Brother 420cn, All using these new, sealed cartridges bought off of ebay for around 2.00 each including shipping. They come sealed, they last years (found a canon one after 4 years, working without a hitch) and are at a price I find acceptable.
I print "photo quality" pictures often enough and they still hang on the wall behind glass and no-one knows they're printed. I think the REAL trick is to:
1. print off at least 1 page of color/b+w a week (I setup a macro where it will print 1 test page a week whether I'm there or not).
2. Don't use refillable cartridges, and
3. get printers that are having good use by people using these 3rd party cartridges. (research!)
I use the printers for business too, never a problem with print quality. And before someone says "it's because you use it all the time" those old canon and epson printers went to family (replacing lexmarks!) and they RARELY print anything, but that trick on printing a page a week does wonders.
Good luck!
Yo Grark
Contradicted here... (Score:5, Informative)
First off, they've received a lot of unusable 3rd party cartridges:
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/electronics-co
And here, their recommendation is that the replacement inks are not quite as thrifty as they appear:
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/electronics-co
My experience is that I bought cheap replacement ink for a Canon printer, and it clogged the print heads, didn't last as long, and produced poor quality color. I ended up throwing them out. Instead, I shop at the warehouse clubs where you can typically save 33-50% on name brand inks.
I prefer Canon because it allows you to replace individual ink tanks (which can be slightly thrifter). HP tends to do all-in-ones, which is bad if they mix Black, since you'll go through black 2-3x as fast. Overall, HP's tend to be expensive to run for that reason. In fact, with HP's your best bet is to wait until the computer stores sell new HP printers for $15 after rebate, use up the ink and then throw away the printer. It feels terribly wasteful to do that, but the ink is so expensive for HP's that it's really the most economical way to own them.
Epson is worse, mainly because the ones I've owned tended to clog their print heads if you let them sit for more than a week or two. Then you run 2-3 cleaning cycles which used up the ink even faster. Back in the day of tractor feeds and impact printers, the joke was "Epson" was a Japanese word that meant "Paper Jam". I hope they've fixed that.
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Now the only thing I would trust them for is their automotive reports, simply because I expect the car manufacturers have all provided the same amount of 'support'.
If you go to
Have both good printers and cheap printers (Score:2)
Of the time I started doing this I
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What I generally recommend to my customers (I work at an OEM/retail) is that they get a nice little multi function, usually canon or epson (they are the best of the bad lot, meaning ink jet printers) and get a hp or Fuji/Xerox basic laser too, the laser printer will pay for itself in in an about 6-12 mths
MFPs = Cheap ADF scanner (Score:2)
The only good thing about inkjet multifunction machines is that they're probably the cheapest way to get an automatic-document-feeder scanner. Since they're selling the machine at or close to a loss, hop
Don't wanna turn it into another DRM discussion... (Score:5, Insightful)
One should get the idea why ink is so expensive when you see the price tag on the printers. Did you see any modern printers recently that sell for more than 30 bucks? The material used alone costs many times more than that.
The ink actually pays for the printers.
And that kind of marketing is quite lucrative. It's a bit like the consoles that are paid for by the games rather than by the money you spend for the PS3 or X360 itself.
And thus ink manufacturers come up with newer and better "copy protection" with every batch of their printers. That's, btw, also why they are actually patenting a nose on some cartridge or why there is a chip on them. For the customer, this only means that it gets even MORE expensive.
Do I want to be part of that? Seriously, no. If a printer is not allowing me to use the ink I want to use by default, without me first trying to "patch" my printer, I don't want the printer. There's a copyshop around the corner that can print in really good quality for a fairly acceptable price. Keep your overpriced liquids.
Shocked an appalled! (Score:2)
This is truly a YMMV situation. My Universe includes a couple of Brother 4 in 1 inkjets that use nothing but refilled cartridges and are quite happy, and an HP 990cxi that insists on only HP products if it is to behave.
Really your only option is to try out the options with your specific machine, and your handiest supplier, and see what happens.
Ripoff? No me... (Score:2)
I have one of these [superwarehouse.com] with the multi-function scanner unit, duplex, envelope feeder and extra paper trays. Cost under $300 on eBay and prints 25,000 pages on a single toner cartridge. Cost per page is $0.015-0.04 per page. I'm on my second third toner cartridge in five years. (yeah I print a lot) True, it doesn't do color but I rarely need that and have a throwaway inkjet (acquired for free) for the odd color print.
Inkjets are the best option in certain circumstances but m
Canon is good to me (Score:4, Interesting)
It has actual optical sensors so it doesn't complain about low ink until the ink is actually low.
After a few years (probably 30 refills) the felt sponge inside got kind of clogged up (I'd probably let it run too dry too many times and it got lots of dried ink in it) so I had to start actually replacing carts. But when one color would act up, I'd replace that cart once, and then get another 30 or so refills out of it.
I guess I can't say whether original Canon ink is better or worse, because it's been years since I had a printer full of Canon ink. I know there are some crappy ink suppliers out there, so I use one that I've had good luck with and which has special formulations for each manufacturer. I've tried putting that manufacturer's Epson ink in my Canon (I used to have an Epson and had some leftover ink) - it worked but the colors were way off. So I'd guess that any ink maker that has a "one size fits all" ink formulation is going to be universally mediocre.
I am sad that apparently Canon has gone to putting chips in their carts. I guess I'm going to have to keep my i960 running forever.
HP 5550 (Score:3, Interesting)
The best part is, the black cartridges cost $20, or at least they did last time I bought them. So I would guess I have spent less than $200 on my printer alone over the last five years, which sounds pretty darn good for all the printing I did in school. Best printer I will probably ever own.
If it's an inkjet, yes. (Score:3, Interesting)
I haven't used an inkjet since the early 90s. In January 1994 I plunked down ~$1400 for an Apple LaserWriter Select 360, and that's still my printer today. I'm only on my second ~$90 toner cartridge-- it took me YEARS to use up the one that was included in the box with the printer, not like the bullshit, half-full "starter" cartridges that come with inkjets.
In November of last year my Select 360 died, but I got my hands on another one (for free) that didn't print well and was headed to the dumpster, swapped out the mainboard and power supply from it into mine, and I'm back in business again. I'm gonna keep using this puppy until it is beyond repair.
~Philly
If it's a blind test... (Score:3, Funny)
Explain this to me!
But now even Epson is playing the game (Score:2)
And in Australia HP is selling high end inkjets that you can't buy. Instead you pay as you go.
Why? (Score:4, Funny)
Easy answer ... (Score:2)
No, I haven't caught it stealing yet, in fact I have it watching over my girlfriend's jewelry
There's a reason that Lexmark tried to sue a plug-compatible cartridge maker out of existence: without the artificially-inflated price of the ink the current business practices of all printer makers just aren't sustainable.
Canon ? (Score:4, Informative)
- Nice colour photo printer
- full duplexer for double sided printing
- Can print CD's and other unfoldable items.
- separate ink tanks for each colour.
- Quite small, about the size of 4 stacks of paper, or 3 flat-bed scanners. I often take it woth me.
- new price was about 100 euro, 2 years ago.
Cheap ink and general good experience with Canon products is what made me buy this printer. But i am especially happy with the double sided printing and great colour prints.
Multiple video screens (Score:2)
I don't agree with the conclusions... (Score:2)
But also state: "A comment that was made by several of our panellists was that many of the prints were of very similar quality and quite difficult to differentiate between."
The only printer I really care about is the HP one, for personal reasons. In looking at the charts for it the HP ink received an average score of 43.55, the CartridgeWorld ave
I'm using an HPLJ II - unbelievable inexpensive. (Score:2)
Sure it's big, slow, b&w, and 300dpi. But it serves my purposes and costs practically nothing. I have read that HP thinks they made a mistake with series II and IIIs in that they made them too reliable. I figure my HP II is at least 15 years old.
My wife has a much newer HP laser, it's not bad either.
Re:I'm using an HPLJ II - unbelievable inexpensive (Score:2)
Still using HP LaserJet 5P from 1995 (Score:2)
Cost isn't the only problem... (Score:3, Informative)
So when you're out of magenta, you can't print out that term paper that's due in 20 minutes, even though it's only in black.
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I get my ink cartridges from PrintPal.com (Score:3, Informative)
You'd have to be nuts to pay the kind of money for ink cartridges that the printer manufacturers want you to pay.
Given the crap software that HP wants to install on your systems now (750MB of crap for their OfficeJet 6310! plus drivers that port scan your system!), I'd say HP is going out of business at some point.
you didn't look closely (Score:3, Informative)
not that they HAD tested, but that it was now underway
really, they were quite clear on that point.
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Re:People still buy inkjets? (Score:5, Interesting)
After the first color laser we are using a Xerox Solid Ink printer (I call it a "Crayon Jet" as the 'ink sticks' are very similar crayon material) It prints fast, the colors are as vibrant on a laser and it is darn fast (I think it has page-wide printheads) Besides the ink there is a maintenance kit (cleaning roller) which is replaces ever 30,000 copies (we're upto 69,000 on one of em). Cost per page (inks+maintenance kits) come to about 5.6 cents a page.
There is a downside though, given it is a wax based more then a toner based ink the ink is not as abrasion or heat resistant (I.e. if you use it for bus cards some color rubs off on the adjacent card, or if you heat-laminate it you get a really awful bleed from the ink liquefying during lamination.)
Most of what we do is short term signage, certificates, reports and brochures which is just fine.
Re:Advertisements (Score:4, Funny)
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