Open Source Car on the Horizon 214
PreacherTom writes "So here's a question: can open-source practices and approaches be applied to make hardware, to create tangible and physical objects, including complex ones? Markus Merz believes they can. The young German is the founder of the OScar project, whose goal is to develop and build a car according to open-source principles. Merz and his team aren't going for a super-accessorized SUV — they're aiming at designing a simple and functionally smart car. The OScar is not the only open-source hardware project out there: others include Zero Prestige, which designs kites and kite-powered vehicles, and Open Prosthetics, which offers free exchange of designs for prosthetic devices."
Great (Score:2, Funny)
Blue, dammit. (Score:5, Funny)
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Isn't "open source" supposed to be about developing platforms and extending them for personal gain, then releasing your changes back to the community so that others may use the improvements as they see fit? Wouldn't it be better if each car "developer" goes and designs a car, then they all come back and show each other the designs so that the committee can pick and choose? Design-by-committee never works, but choice-by-committee of finished designs and components d
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Stop already! (Score:2)
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Pic (Score:3, Funny)
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That's obviously the car on the Gnome desktop. Damn it! Why won't people learn that posting screenshots of new distros makes no sense if they all use the KDE/Gnome/XFCE/Fluxbox/your_preferred_WM_here paradigm?
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More seriously, that's probably a good characterization of what will come out of the process: a futuristic, high performance car that gets great gas milage but looks ugly as hell. It will have all sorts of "flashy" features like alpha transparency--err, tailfins, but they won't be integrated into a coherent, consistent design. Until Apple make
does that mean.. (Score:5, Funny)
Does that mean it will crash less than other cars?
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If it has faster 0-60mph times, and handles better than other cars...and doesn't look like a lump (skinable?) like most cars coming out today (like that prius...ugh!)....
I'd be interested in it.
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Ah yes. The most important feature is the one we know is hardest for open source (being that looks are subjective and such). Screw looks. If it's got usable space, good handling and acceleration, and decent mileage, I'm in. You could make it look like the weiner mobile for all I care, though that would be an inefficient shape.
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Re:Well, if the speed and tailgating is auto-limit (Score:3, Funny)
I see where you're going with this. Perhaps if we put some sort of sentience in charge of controlling the vehicle, we could accomplish all of
If your open source car breaks down... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:If your open source car breaks down... (Score:5, Insightful)
"You will have to search out mechanics on your own, and in most cases if you find them they will laugh at you for being too stupid to use the car, and point you to libraries spread throughout the country. In each of those libraries there will be manuals that give small, different chunks that sort of relate to the problem you're having. Sometimes you will be lucky enough to find a mechanic who has seen your problem before, and actually gives you a straight answer and gets you back on the road. But good luck on the rest of the times."
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You are officially on crack.
I have the factory service manual for both my 1989 Nissan 240SX and my 1981 Mercedes 300SD. The former is a book. The latter is on cdrom. Both were purchased from or at least through a dealer.
Both books have extensive troubleshooting flowcharts, although the Nissan one has much better ones. This only makes sense, since it's eight years newer and
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Not surprisingly since I take public transportation and my dad didn't get DSL until last year (his first car BTW was a used Model T).
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The funny thing is that if you get the manual and a code reader if it's OBD-II the cars are often easier to repair in that you don't actually have to know as much. Just follow the manual. Anything modern has a complete trouble tree and you just follow the procedure. It pretty much boils down to "Test continuity between pins 3 and 4. If you have continuity, go to 12A. If not, go to 12B". Eventually you get down to checking an individual part. It takes quite a bit of experience to be able to diagnose an aut
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Like Linux... (Score:2)
"mainly software??" (Score:3, Insightful)
Not a car I would ever drive... I prefer my cars with *no* software.
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Re:"mainly software??" (Score:5, Informative)
I'm with you, in that I drive older cars, mostly for this reason. I'm all for this "open source car" thing, though; at a certain point the future, virtually every car on the market will have a computer in it. Do we want to be able to service these things ourselves, or are we going to have to take them to a Certified Mechanic who needs an expensive proprietary interface to work on the car?
Second: Older cars have the same problem. "What? They do not!" you say! Yes, yes they do. How much money does it cost for all the specialized tools needed in vehicle repair? Flare nut wrenches? No use other than brake jobs. Flywheel puller? Special presses?
You already need to use expensive, sometimes proprietary (Ford fuel line disconnect) tools to do the job, how is that different than needing to connect a car up to a computer interface?
BTW, you will find that those fancy computer interfaces can be had for under 200 bucks, which is less than many of your single-purpose tools needed for car work and supports a whole suite of diagnostic purposes.
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I had a look into these a while ago. There are different standards (US: OBD-II, Europe: EOBD) and electrical interfaces (for OBD-II: J1850 VPW, ISO 9141-2, J1850 PWM, J2284 CAN, KWP2000), plus various proprietory (mostly pre OBD-II) protocols. If a single "OpenDiag" protocol can be developed -
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Also, the first stirings of computers were around in the 30s and before they just weren't fully featured. Look up Konrad Zuse. Then step back to Hollarith and so on backwards. It's amazing to me that we didn't have a mechanical computer or elctro mechanical computer before 1900. I can build a functioning cpu with no more than telephone relays, clocked in kilo hertz.
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I can't believe you were trying to be sarcastic, unless you just aren't very good at that either...
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Well, I do now, but I'm saving up for a car that wasn't designed by software. You see, a car with no microchips of any kind is a car that any regular person can fix. As soon as there's any kind of chip in there, you can't fix it yourself.
Gargh. Can you not see that there is a difference in the phrases, "Designed by software" and "Run by software" ???????
If I design a cool boomerang by simulating it first in some software package, throwing away several designs and settling on one that works the best does that mean that my boomerang (when I finally build the prototype) is controlled or run by some doggone microchips?
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Just to add to what you're saying... every car on the market today has an onboard computer. Even kit-cars have onboard computers. They serve a few very useful purposes. One of the three in my car controls the transmission (tiptronic... best of both worlds. have the fun of a manual transmission, and the convenience of an automatic when you're feeling lazy), another has a temperature sensor and controls the fuel/air mixture, and the
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Oooh! Ooooh! Thanks! My new sig!
New SIg (Score:2)
>Oooh! Ooooh! Thanks! My new sig!
Oooh! Ooooh! Thanks! My new sig!
thanks for that too.
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A car can be "designed by software" and have no microchips (or designed by hand, and have several microchips). The two concepts are completely orthogonal.
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Thank you.
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Human beings really can only fix cars that were designed and manufactured pre-computer.
No. There are parts, both mechanical and electronic that need to be replaced from time to time. Sure you can get your drums turned and put them back on or rebuild your carb. But there are plenty of mechanical parts on your car that you simply replace with new ones when they wear out. That is the same with one of the computer sensors or whatnot. If they are faulty, you put a new one in.
Perhaps you can't fix newer cars, but I have very little trouble with it.
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Okay why not?
If the chip fails you could get a new one and replace it.
Very few people can make every part of a car from the raw materials. Unless you have a full machine shop and foundry in your back yard you will always have to buy parts. So how is a chip any different.
I suggest you do a Google on MegaSquirt. It is a DIY fuel injection system that you can build yourself or buy as a kit.
Chips are not magic. They are just parts like an
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MegaSquirt? Did someone hack the Zune to wirelessly transfer songs without any restrictions?
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actually, NO! I work on large Diesiel trucks, when you have a loss of power on your purly mechanical car, most live with it spewing extra gas, and exhaust smoke, lose 10% of economy, oh well old cars do that... Or you get a compression gauge, you check one cylinder at a time, you add a gauge check fuel pressure, add a gauge check radiator pressure... you add a gauge, check head temperatures, exhaust temperature, radiat
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Great, I have a '58 VW Bug with a cracked block. Since there are no chips in it, you can "fix" the block, right? Now, if I had a loose bolt in the seat track of a new car, that'd obviously not be fixable because it has chips somewhere in the car.
Cars are no harder or easier to fix now than before. The tools have changed. Some of the parts that
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>Not a car I would ever drive... I prefer my cars with *no* software.
I wouldn't go that far, I just prefer a car with no windows.
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No computer required.
Really? You enjoy cars with no... power steering
Yes. But, no computer required.
Really? You enjoy cars with no... anti-lock brakes
Yes.
Really? You enjoy cars with no... automatic transmission
Do you really enjoy cars with automatic transmissions?? Ugh.
Really? You enjoy cars with no... fuel gage
No computer required.
Really? You enjoy cars with no... speedometer
No computer required.
Whew, that was a complicated post.
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I never understood why people hate electronics in cars. You could say that using steel in your car is improper because you can't find steel naturally in nature and sculpt it to fit your old part location without external help, a lot of tools, a smelter and time.
Buying a brake drum for your car is exactly like buying a replacement ABS sensor. You may not be able to make one on your own, but you can freely walk into the parts store down the road and
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I dislike anti-lock brakes...I feel in less control...good old manual disk brakes on each wheel thank you!. I have never owned, nor ever want to own an automatic transmission car. I go only for sports cars tho....I've only owned one car with more than 2 seats in my life, and that was my '86 930 (R.I.P. in Katrina).
I don't see that you need a computer for fuel gages, speedometers, ta
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Now, I'll grant you, computers DO help things on cars, but, I prefer them to be minimal in usage. It is MUCH easier to track down and fix a mechanical problem than trying to trouble shoot something computerized or drive by wire. Especially if you like to do some work on your own as a "shade tree mechanic".
That is only true if you refuse to keep learning. Computers and on board diagnostics help a great deal in troubleshooting and repair if you take the time to learn how they work.
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You are, I hope, aware that modern ABS systems typically give a shorter stopping distance than even a talented driver, on any surface other than dry tarmac?
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You are, I hope, aware that modern ABS systems typically give a shorter stopping distance than even a talented driver, on any surface other than dry tarmac?
Sorry, Sir, you are incorrect. On dry tarmac, modern ABS will stop faster than a talented driver except under special circumstances. Depending on the circumstances, even the most ham fisted driver can out brake modern ABS.
ABS's primary goal is to keep the tire turning so that you can maintain steering control of the car. A locked tire does not allow you to make steering input, not to mention that a locked tire's coefficient of friction goes down dramatically compared to one that is turning close to the spe
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please. anti-lock brakes give you far more control then manual disk breaks, and they have been used for many years. Assuming your not pumping the ABS. If you are pumping , then STOP it.
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Speedometers, fuel gages etc are mechanical, power steering and anti-lock breaks are unnecessary, and as for automatic transmission, I am neither old, disabled or American so have no use for it.
What isn't open about cars? (Score:2)
What else really is there to protect?
Everything else is trivially reverse engineered. Each of the major MFGs has engineering teams that buy new cars & strip them down to the bare chassis & then do an inventory to figure out how much their competitors are spending.
Software is really the only black box in a car.
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Yeah, and software isn't even necessary. If anything, I'd be interested in working on (and driving) a car with no software at all.
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Simpsons did it (Score:4, Funny)
So, for once... (Score:2)
Finally, all those car analogies people make on computer forums might actually be relevant..
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No, that's City CarShare.
Although, I could see ZipCar or City CarShare being interested in the Open Source Car.
Not really "open source" just "open collaboration" (Score:2)
Main problem will be laws. (Score:5, Interesting)
But there will be a BIG problem with laws - especially mandated safety and emissions testing.
That's designed on the assumption that large numbers of essentially identical cars are produced by well-funded manufacturers, so the cost of a lot of crash and emission-control testing and design work can be spread out over many units and become affordable.
Even if you are building using zero-emission or well-tested stock power plants, good luck on getting the safety-testing requirements relaxed. A poorly-designed car endangers, not just those in it, but those in vehicles around it.
With cars the "blue screen of death" is literal.
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Could you get aroun
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The short answer is, if you buy a broken 60's Camaro that was real, then you can build it. Well, really you should buy a '60s VW Bug, they were cheaper. Take the V
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You are permitted one custom car per lifetime. If you wreck it, sometimes you can get away with a re-vin where the vin is transferred to a new vehicle, but usually not - you have to fix the original. Well, let me elaborate - sometimes yo
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That is a VERY interesting statement. Where does this law come from?? I've been to the sites where you can order these kit cars...and I've not seen any indication of this as a fact. Do you have some links or pointers to info on this?
I'd think at the very least...this might vary from state to state....I mean car laws are weird state to state...I hear all the time about people who have to get their cars emission tested...strict laws on mods (mostly from CA),
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Sounds like a self-fulfilling assumption to me--one that easily restricts competition in favor of the bigger, established businesses, no?
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Yep.
But it's just fallout from the way things developed, not a planned lock-in.
Getting it relaxed might be a fight. But the safety argument will be hard
to refute without a bunch of expensive crash tests.
We might have success with a "type approval" regime for components with
safety implications.
So when it crashes (Score:2)
An open source car? (Score:3, Interesting)
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I'm not sure that's really an apples-to-apples comparison. Any (even assuming a decent general education, but no specialty in the field) person off the street is unlikely to pick up a few books and people capable of putting together, say, an enterprise-ready RDBMS from scratch on their
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This is clearly a practical limitation to the utility of such an approach, to be sure, though an "open-source" kit-built car (a little bit more work to "install" than configure, make, make install!) might get around some of that.
This is interesting (Score:2)
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Ideas about collectively-owned cars have been bandied about here on Slashdot for years, but no one's ever gotten very far in the real world with the idea. The problem is that, while it'd be nice to just "check out" a car on those days you needed one for a weekend excursion or trip across town, you're likely to get a car that has discarded fast food containers or used condoms lying around inside it, and wor
There are quite a few OS hardware projects (Score:2)
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SmallEfficien
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/osmc [yahoo.com]
Standards (Score:5, Insightful)
This Open Source car would only be better if there were standards employed in these particular sections. Or have any connections be customizeable on both sides of the connection. So, if someone invents a better wheel pattern, it's easy to change the disc brake assembly to to fit it (dependency).
The problem is that just having the design isn't going to get you very far because of the specialized components involved. A car is very expensive to build but at million plus quantities it's very cheap. But try to one-off one gear for a transmission sometime (it'll be THOUSANDS to get the precision in a $900 off-the-shelf manual transmission like Mazda makes for Ford).
Instead, from the design stage, standardize everything. A standard ring or star topology for communications and power bussing throughout the car. Then each powered device has a microcontroller that turns it off or on. Then the microcontroller can report back it's status to a central computer. Most of the electricals are easily standardized. Where you run into problems is precision machined steel parts of an engine and transmission. Replacing also those with electrics is the way to go. Use electric motors, magnetic suspension, etc. Modular body panels can have their own microcontrollers also, so the car can reconfigure itself based on what you have mounted. You have the rear door in place, the rear door up/down button appears on the interface. The top is off, no sense showing the moonroof control. Etc etc.
RFC's and the like are what's really made stuff like linux possible. It's not just having the source but having the standards that really make everything easy to work with, and make sure that many different programmers can all work on different sections of the project without worrying about if their module can talk with the others.
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Where you run into problems is precision machined steel parts of an engine and transmission. Replacing also those with electrics is the way to go.
That's one of the things I like about the Prius. The Prius transmission [ecrostech.com] is rather simpler than the typical tranny, and, because of the two motors and one engine involved, doesn't need a clutch (the gear connected to the wheels can be held still even when the engine is spinning, by counter-spinning the motors).
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I believe there was an issue of "Sport Compact Car" a couple years ago where one of the editorials pointed this out. Part of his argument (if I recall correctly) was that the bicycle industry has done this for years. Parts are very standardized. Parts can be swapped between brands with almost no worries about compatibility issues. What this has lead to is a lot of competition and innovation in the aftermarket. It allows the consumer to compare parts straight across based on weight, color, price, or wh
Adds New Meaning to the Phrase: (Score:2)
OS jokes - a welcome change of pace (Score:2)
BTW did Hell freeze over?!?
Reminds me of a joke ... (Score:2)
The mechanical engineer says, "There must be a leak in the hydraulic system, and that caused the brakes to fail."
"Not so fast," said the systems analyst.
this is stupid (Score:2)
Are car part designs really that incumbered by patents or IP issues? So much so that someone CAN'T design their own without running afoul of the law?
After all, don't forget that Mopar [trademotion.com] (and countless others) have been knocking off manufacturer's parts for years. And they are still around.
While it's nice that the designs would be "open", I think practically speaking, they already are.
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I dunno exactly how significant it is in practice, but just as an illustration, here's the Hitachi's page listing their automotive patents [hitachi.us].
They've tackled the wrong problem (Score:4, Informative)
As cool as their renderings and open-source specs are, they do nothing to address the real problem. And before someone claims that this is only a concept and that manufacturing can come later, they need to know that 80%-90% of the cost of something is baked in during the design phase (the figure comes from companies such as Volkswagen and Lucent). If manufacturing is an afterthought, there's no hope of getting the costs down because it's too late. Maybe a few stock-option millionaire geeks will be able to spring for the vehicle, but it will never hit a price point that sells the volume that makes a difference.
I hope they switch the focus of the effort to make a breakthrough in manufacturing systems. That would be really cool!
Why not do like every other Open-Source project... (Score:2)
Interesting, but not new (Score:2)
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Project looks dead; no updates since 4/2006 (Score:2)
Interchangeable parts.. (Score:2)
I'd be happy with an open firmware for regular car computers. Just let me redefine the auto-headlight logic (to avoid getting lynched by astronomers) and the auto-wiper logic (no really, after a squirt and 1 swipe, it's clean! no need for 4 more swipes!), and the remote control logic (If I want to leave the engine running with the doors locked, I should be able to unlock them
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Good Lord. I'm guessing that a blue wall forms behind it that other cars would crash into. And you can turn in perfect 90 degree angles as well.
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I don't know about recompiling, but rebuilding (engines, at least) isn't that uncommon...
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