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Hardware Hacking Businesses Data Storage Apple

Mac mini Maximized With 3.5" Drives 439

Posted by timothy from the battleship-aesthetica dept.
Demolition writes "You just knew that someone would get around to this, didn't you? In this how-to article from AppleTalk Australia, a step-by-step guide describes how to transplant a Mac mini into a micro-ATX case and a method to connect standard 3.5" hard drives to it (using do-it-yourself 2.5"-to-3.5" IDE adapters). Only some minor case modifications and some added cooling are needed to complete the project."
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Mac mini Maximized With 3.5" Drives More

Mac mini Maximized With 3.5" Drives

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  • But what is the point? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Primotech ( 731340 ) on Wednesday February 09, 2005 @08:21PM (#11624619) Homepage
    Part of the mac's allure is it's stylish looks. This is just as dumb as putting a PC in a mac mini case.

    • err... (Score:2, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      if part of the allure is its looks, then what's dumb about putting a pc in its good looking case?

      or are you using reverse psychology and you actually think this article ISN'T dumb?

    • Re:But what is the point? (Score:2, Interesting)

      by fnj ( 64210 )
      Part of the mac's allure is it's stylish looks. This is just as dumb as putting a PC in a mac mini case.

      I'm not following the logic. Agree completely on the Mac Mini looks, and even more, the unmatched form factor. Actually, it would be very cool indeed to put a PC in a Mac Mini "case". One is not going to have any luck doing this, though, because there is no PC with a small enough form factor. Not a Mini ITX, not even a Nano ITX.

    • The point is using the Mini as a server (Score:4, Insightful)

      by tetromino ( 807969 ) on Wednesday February 09, 2005 @08:50PM (#11624903)
      I imagine that with the low price, low power usage, and ppc architecture (not many binary sploits for Linux on ppc...) many people would want to use these things as small servers. The problem is that the Mac Mini hard drive sucks ass - it's slow, only 40G, and the small form factor means upgrades are expensive. Perhaps the most important part of a server is a good hard drive.

      By putting the Mini into a PC case, you get the room to add a large fast hard drive, and the air flow needed to cool it.
    • Part of the mac's allure is it's stylish looks. This is just as dumb as putting a PC in a mac mini case.


      Well, maybe he wanted a more upgradeable Mac, and that was the best he could come up with.

      Waste of a good case if you ask me. ;-P

    • For me it would price. Which is where this makes sense.

  • All together now: (Score:3, Interesting)

    by __aailob1448 ( 541069 ) on Wednesday February 09, 2005 @08:22PM (#11624627) Journal
    Worst. Idea. Ever.

    The whole point of the mac mini is it's small form factor, transplanting it into another case to upgrade the HD is simply absurd.

    • Re:All together now: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Not true.

      The other "whole point" of the Mac mini is that it's low cost. This adds a much faster hard drive which is probably the slowest component in the Mini, and Hard Drives are cheap.

      I'm seriously thinking about updating the HD of my mini...
      • Well, the point actually is, that you get a ppc (running OSX) for a relatively low price. But compared to similar (x86) solutions it's rather expensive. So you either like the architecure or you like OSX or you simply love its design (there is nothing wrong about that), but don't tell me that the mini is low cost. It's just a niche Aplle hasn't covered before.
        • On the contrary, the closest equivalent I could find was a Cappuchino PC. And by the time you's upped it's processor MHz, disk memory GB to iMac mini spec, the cost was $909. You won't find any PC of comparable spec to the mini for lower cost than the mini. Either you'll compromise on the size, or you'll have to build it yourself.
      • If you decide to and submit the HOWTO to /. make sure it's not running on the mini as well, unlike this one.:D
    • I thought the idea was also a cheap mac?
      Or are macs really all about looks over functionality?
      • Form factor is a function. A 5 kg "portable MP3 player" the size of a briefcase, for example, wouldn't really hit the target market.
        • Yes, form factor is a function. Not the only function.

          So it doesn't completely ruin a mac mini to put it in a different case with a different hard drive. You give up one feature for another while keeping the remaind of the features.
        • In your example it makes a difference because it is a portable device. But does it make a difference if your desktop computer is 5 kg or e.g. 15? Since you don't move it too often it doesn't really matter at all.

          The Mini beats them all in terms of size however, which might make it interesting for people having not much of it to spare.
          • Yes. We should all push the computing companies to come out with Altair sized computers. Here's a thought, do we not move them because we don't want to, or because they are too cumbersome to move?
            • Don't tell me that a desktop computer won't be moved because of it's weight. Even my 80+ years grandmother could move an average computer to the other side of the room without hassle (if she would ever want to move a computer).

    • Not really (Score:5, Informative)

      by useosx ( 693652 ) on Wednesday February 09, 2005 @08:30PM (#11624713)
      Small form factor is nice, but if you want to throw it in your basement as a server, it's main benefits are:

      1) It's cheap
      2) Draws about 65 watts, so your electric bill will be lower than using an old G3 tower or something

      So, in that case, if you want to use it as a server, a nice 400 GB 3.5" IDE drive would be great. Who cares about the case if it's in your basement.

      Now, if they can only figure out how to get Gigabit Ethernet in there...

      • 2) Draws about 65 watts(*), so your electric bill will be lower than using an old G3 tower or something

        So, in that case, if you want to use it as a server, a nice 400 GB 3.5" IDE drive would be great. Who cares about the case if it's in your basement.

        The site is slashdotted, so I couldn't RTFA, but does he power the HD from the Mac or did he need more power?

        A noisy power supply would turn that around quickly.

        (*) 65 watts?? A Mac Mini takes only 65 watts?? Wow. Now it's the green alternative as well.

      • Re:Not really (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Jack Auf ( 323064 ) on Wednesday February 09, 2005 @09:17PM (#11625137) Homepage
        If you want to use it as a server then why not simply leave it in the original case, plug in a firewire drive, and throw it in the basement (or under the fridge, or in a closet, or....)

        Take the money that you would have spent on a case and spend it on a FW enclosure and a disk and come out ahead.

    • Re:All together now: (Score:5, Insightful)

      by mejesster ( 813444 ) on Wednesday February 09, 2005 @08:49PM (#11624898)
      Don't you dare tell me what the "whole point" of any computer is. I'll tell the computer what to do, thank you very much. I don't care what apple thinks it should do.
    • the Mod? or not refusing connections from slashdot?

  • no replies... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 09, 2005 @08:22PM (#11624628)
    and already nuked.

    Anybody have the article?

    (And seriously, if nobody ever R's T Fing A, why do servers go down faster than a hooker for a benjamin?)
    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • Nobody RTFA...

      Nobody would buy from spam either, right?

      78% Percent of users who report receiving spam daily
      11% Percent of users who report receiving at least 40 spam per day
      14% Percent of users who report they open spam messages to see what they say [Yikes!]
      4% Percent of users who report they have purchased a product or service advertised in a spam email

      So maybe 4% RTFA too? That's logic for you, bad logic, but logic none-the-less.

    • It's like playboy. They only look at the pictures ;)

  • Obligatory (Score:2, Funny)

    by Arghdee ( 813921 )
    Looks like they used it to host the page..

    Up in flames already.

  • Or... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by daveschroeder ( 516195 ) * on Wednesday February 09, 2005 @08:22PM (#11624632)
    ...without ripping your Mac mini apart and sticking it in a PC enclosure, you could use any capacity 3.5" disk you wished in conjunction with Mac mini by using any 3.5" drive enclosure with FireWire (and/or USB 2.0), including some sure-to-be-released FireWire/USB 2.0 enclosures that will mimic Mac mini's appearance, and be designed to sit underneath or near a Mac mini and still be aesthetically pleasing. Perhaps some vendor like El Gato will even make a FireWire PVR/tuner solution WITH an integrated 3.5" drive bay, in the same type of case as Mac mini.

    (Preemptive response: Yes, FireWire 400 is more than fast enough for this application. Yes, even for a media server. Yes, even for a PVR. Yes, I know USB 2.0 doesn't support booting. If you want booting, use FireWire. Yes, I know Apple says you shouldn't stack anything on top of Mac mini. That's why I said Mac mini would stack on top of it. Further, it's very likely NOT because of heat, but because the AirPort and Bluetooth antennas are directly in the top of the case, and instead of making a bunch of convoluted requirements about when and if it's ok to stack something on it, they just said no stacking. But, again, moot, because you could stack the mini itself on top of such a hypothetical enclosure or device. Or, set them side by side.)

    The Mac mini really is almost a perfect media center box:

    Acceptable processor and video card
    DVI, VGA, S-video, and Composite video out
    1/8" stereo audio out, or digital audio via FireWire with one of several adapters
    FireWire and USB 2.0
    10/100 ethernet and modem
    Optional 802.11g and Bluetooth
    CD-RW/DVD or optional CD-RW/DVD+/-RW
    Remote control via Apple Remote Desktop or VNC (included in the free ARD Client 2.1)
    Very small, very elegant, and very quiet operation

    All that's missing is a tuner and a PVR application, and that's a nightmare to wade into, what with what's necessary to tune satellite services, and the infancy of CableCard.

    • Re:Or... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by MyDixieWrecked ( 548719 ) on Wednesday February 09, 2005 @08:38PM (#11624796) Homepage Journal
      well, there actually ARE reasons for wanting to do this...

      having a small formfactor box is pointless if it's surrounded by external devices. If you pop it into a single enclosure with all the extra drives and whatnot encased in a single unit, it's a lot easier to manage and you don't have to worry about toppling. It probably also will increase the lives of the devices since they'll be moved less (moved all at the same time rather than in small increments).

      I took apart a G4 and popped it into an ATX case so I could have 2 optical drives and room for more internal HDs. Also, I liked the idea of having a window and UV cathode tubes illuminating the internals...

      A small form-factor mini-itx case is still a small form-factor case. The project (althought I didn't RTFA, it's fried) doesn't say to put the mac mini's logic board into a full ATX tower, does it?
      • 2 of the 4 major model families of G4 would have interested you:

        Power Mac G4 (QuickSilver) and Power Mac G4 (Mirrored Drive Door) systems both had room for 2 5.25" optical drives, PLUS 4 internal 3.5" drive bays. In the case of the MDD, there were two ATA/100 busses and one ATA/66 bus (for optical drives).

        Additionally, how many accessories are you talking about adding to Mac mini? A drive and a tuner? And if someone makes a Mac mini-like enclosure for this - which is very likely, given the history of Mac
        • Sure. But those models are no longer available. I know the last generation PowerMac G4 was available at the Apple Store - but I can't find it anymore.

      • Re:Or... (Score:3, Funny)

        by Jeff DeMaagd ( 2015 )
        Also, I liked the idea of having a window and UV cathode tubes illuminating the internals...

        Yeah, because a light and windows makes the computer internals sooo much better.

    • Re:Or... (Score:3, Informative)

      by illumin8 ( 148082 )
      Perhaps some vendor like El Gato will even make a FireWire PVR/tuner solution WITH an integrated 3.5" drive bay, in the same type of case as Mac mini.

      Actually, there are already some very good articles up on how to make your Mac mini into an HDTV PVR [avsforum.com]. Basically, you need an HDTV tuner with a firewire output. This can be had for about $5 a month from your cable company, or you can buy one for OTA (over the air) HDTV broadcasts here [futureusa.net].

      The only thing that prevents the Mac mini from direct HDTV playback is t

    • Re:Or... (Score:5, Informative)

      by 3waygeek ( 58990 ) on Wednesday February 09, 2005 @09:13PM (#11625107)
      Download the free FireWire SDK [apple.com] from Apple, and you get a virtual DVHS application that makes your Mac's 1394 interface look like a digital VHS. Combine this with a HD tuner that has FireWire out, like the Motorola 6200 series used by Comcast and others, or the Samsung T165 ATSC tuner [samsung.com], and you're most of the way to a PVR.
    • Hmm, I have a several no name portable usb 2.0 hard drives, and all are bootable.

      Google it up.

      Puto

  • Coral Cache (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    coral cache [nyud.net]
  • It completely ruins the point of having a Mac mini. Frickin' ugly as hell too. I mean, if you want a RAID this badly, leave the beautiful Mac alone and go along with some sort of network storage/fileserver solution. Easier to set-up, candy for the eyes, and a lot less hackish.
    • It completely ruins the point of having a Mac mini. Frickin' ugly as hell too.

      I don't buy computers for the aesthetics. If I wanted aesthetics, I would buy a painting and hang it on my wall. The Mac Mini is the first apple that I actually find affordable, except the case sucks (sucks functionally - I don't care if it's beautifuL): there is too little airflow (so no overclocking), and not enough space for a decent hard drive. Fortunately, a $50 PC case can remedy the situation.

  • an idea (Score:5, Funny)

    by Profane MuthaFucka ( 574406 ) <busheatskok@gmail.com> on Wednesday February 09, 2005 @08:24PM (#11624651) Homepage Journal
    Combine this with this articlehttp://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05 /01/30/2213249&tid=222&tid=174 [slashdot.org] from a few days ago, and you would have a miniMac in a Mini-ITX case, and a Mini-ITX in a Mini Mac case. It's a plot we've seen before. http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/TOS/e pisode/68818.html [startrek.com]

  • Why? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by ravenspear ( 756059 ) on Wednesday February 09, 2005 @08:25PM (#11624660)
    I've lost count of the number of "mod your Mac Mini like this" stories that have been posted here in the last month. Most of them deal with increasing the power or expandibility. I find this kind of ironic, considering that the Mac Mini's market seems to be mostly people to which power and expandibility are definitely not primary considerations in a computer buying decision.

    • Re:Why? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by jumpingfred ( 244629 )
      It is a cool slashot article because they are extending it beyond what is was intended to be. If it was intended to be expandable then expanding it is not so interesting.
      • Maybe from a technical standpoint, but to me it looks like yet another worthless mod done by a fool with no sense of aesthetics.
    • I believe this is the second article. Unless you count the one about putting a PC inside a Mac mini case (sans optical drive), then it's the 3rd. Massive.

      The first one was just how to open the case and install RAM on your own. Something a large number of skilled cost-conscious Mac mini buyers probably want to know.
    • Case mods are a kind of hardware hacking, and hacking is something you do just because you enjoy doing it. It's the geek equivalent of those blue-collar guys on King of the Hill, who will move into a house and knock down and put up walls for no particular reason.

    • Re:Why? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by illumin8 ( 148082 )
      I've lost count of the number of "mod your Mac Mini like this" stories that have been posted here in the last month. Most of them deal with increasing the power or expandibility. I find this kind of ironic, considering that the Mac Mini's market seems to be mostly people to which power and expandibility are definitely not primary considerations in a computer buying decision.

      The simple fact of the matter is that the Mac mini is the first incarnation of hardware that will run OS X at a decent speed with qua

  • Truth in advertising. (Score:5, Funny)

    by dameron ( 307970 ) on Wednesday February 09, 2005 @08:25PM (#11624661)
    It seems their server is running tpc via AppleTalk. Long live PhoneNet!

    -dameron

  • or... (Score:2, Redundant)

    by justforaday ( 560408 )
    or you could just slap a drive in a firewire case and use that instead...
  • Let's use the coral cache [nyud.net], since the server already seems to be working hard enough. Loads really fast... I'm surprised slashdot doesn't run all the links in articles through coral servers.
    • "'m surprised slashdot doesn't run all the links in articles through coral servers"

      Ummm, because Coral Cache doesn't work perhaps?

  • putting a mini inside an Apple // (Score:5, Interesting)

    by BobWeiner ( 83404 ) on Wednesday February 09, 2005 @08:34PM (#11624753) Homepage Journal
    I suppose it was only a matter of time before someone decided to mod their mini into a standard PC carcass. What's next? How about putting the Mini inside a vintage Apple II box?

    Since the mini came out, I've been hoping I can stuff it inside an old Apple IIGS (or, even better - a //e), just for giggles.
    Anyone up to the challenge?

    • Since the mini came out, I've been hoping I can stuff it inside an old Apple IIGS (or, even better - a //e), just for giggles. Anyone up to the challenge?

      I'm game, but can we make it an LC II?

      Ever since reading the rumor sites started reporting a cheap Mac, I've been thinking "pizza box" so I'd like to get an old Macintosh LC (or LC II or LC III) and spread out the guts of a Mini inside it.

    • The Mac Mini is small enough to fit, whole and unblemished, into any old Apple model (except maybe the Cube, and I'm sure the guts would fit into that once the case was off).

      Fit a Mac Mini into a Timex-Sinclair, and then I'll be impressed. =)

      PS. I wonder how you'd type command-T on the membrane keyboard. [oldcomputers.net]
    • now you have done it..time to dig out the Apple IIc

  • Finally! (Score:5, Funny)

    by Shnizzzle ( 652228 ) on Wednesday February 09, 2005 @08:34PM (#11624756)
    I always wanted a Mac but they were so damn ugly. If only mac minis had been designed to look like e-machines. Today truly is a great day.

  • Protesters, have you thought of this USEFUL reason (Score:5, Funny)

    by michaeldot ( 751590 ) on Wednesday February 09, 2005 @08:34PM (#11624757)
    Sacrilege aside, putting a Mac Mini in a PC case has one key definite advantage:

    It would let you sneak a Mac into workplaces whose IT Manager(s) have a "no Macs ever, over my dead body" policy.

    Just think: you could have a larger case containing a regular PC, but with the guts of a Mac Mini placed in the space around empty drive/PSU bays.

    Hide a KVM switch somewhere and bingo... Windows/Linux when the PHB/IT Manager is around, Mac OS X when you want to get some work done!

  • Article Text (Score:2, Informative)

    by Fazer ( 636882 )
    Mac mini Maxi
    By: aeberbach
    Feb 8 2005

    The Mac mini Maxi - how I attached extra storage to make a mini server.

    This article involves doing things to your Mac mini which may well destroy it. You should not try this unless you are prepared to lose your entire Mac mini investment, and you should definitely not try it if you do not have an appreciation for the dangers of power tools, electricity and the jagged edges found inside PC cases!

    When I woke up in Australia the morning after the MWSF keynote speech had c

  • Just wait for the accessory. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by copponex ( 13876 ) on Wednesday February 09, 2005 @08:45PM (#11624864) Homepage
    Really. Some relatively talented industrial artist working for Dr Bott/LaCie/etc will design a fixed firewire drive bay that is exactly the same size as the mini, and may offer some other functionality like Compact Flash/SD/etc reader. Fixed 120GB, or a hotswap with cheap trays.

    Good accessories come to those who wait.

  • appalling level of cluelessness today (Score:5, Insightful)

    by X_Caffeine ( 451624 ) on Wednesday February 09, 2005 @09:06PM (#11625040)
    re: The whole point of the mac mini is it's small form factor
    re: It completely ruins the point of having a Mac mini.
    No, that's what YOU think the "point" of a Mac Mini is. To many (if not most) of us, the point is that it's an extremely affordable Mac.

    re: Part of the mac's allure is it's [sic] stylish looks. This is just as dumb as putting a PC in a mac mini case.
    Dumb to you. Cool to someone who didn't buy it for its sylish looks.

    Holy crap, people. This is Slashdot. Some of like to take apart things. Some of us like to take cheap computers and make them perform like expensive computers. We're hobbyists and tinkerers. Why take apart the Mac Mini? We don't need any reason better than "because we can."

    Hell, if I were to build a 5-desk office that needed a simple mail server and file server, the Mac Mini is just a RAID away from perfection, at less than a quarter the price of an XServe.

    The Mac Mini is a beautiful piece of hardware. I'd love to have two -- one that never gets turned on or used, just left on the mantel in a glass box with the fine china, and another that's gutted, rebuilt, and folding 24/7.

  • Or... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by JanneM ( 7445 ) on Wednesday February 09, 2005 @09:09PM (#11625070) Homepage
    Since you are going with mini-ATX in any case (sic), why build in a comparatively slow Mac mini when you could use a mini-ATX board with an Opteron and get a real 64-bit platform for about the same money in the same space?

    The project is cool for its own sake of course, but there doesn't seem to be a real use for it.

    Oh, and people freaking out over the "sarcriledge" - it's a computer, that's all. A piece of metal and plastic. If you really get upset about something like this, I suggest it's time to take a hard look at your priorities and your life.

  • we almost slashdotted /. !
    i waited nearly 30 minutes to get to the reply page!

    finally RTFA and i understand what he was getting at, but seriously, if you can't be bothered to find an aesthetic and
    clever way to implement an external storage system(http://mini-itx.com/news/83991250// [mini-itx.com]) then it's just a half-as$ed job.

  • I can top that... (Score:4, Funny)

    by bshroyer ( 21524 ) <bret@@@bretshroyer...org> on Wednesday February 09, 2005 @09:43PM (#11625328)
    I'm just finishing up the docs on my conversion - I've implanted a Dell Axim PocketPC into a Compaq Luggable. The biggest challenge was connecting the Axim's QVGA to the luggable's 80x32 amber CRT...

    The neat thing is, I've got more power in the luggable now than when it was new, and it wieghs about 15 pounds less, as well.

  • I'm not even a Mac guy... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by HouseOfMisterE ( 659953 ) on Wednesday February 09, 2005 @11:15PM (#11625949)
    I'm not even a Mac guy, and the first thing that I thought of was "Geez, get a couple of external firewire drives." That would have been about the same price, would have looked better, would use less electric (enclosure power supplies vs. the ATX power supply used for the 3.5" hard drives), and performance would probably be as good as or better than his master/slave IDE hard drive setup.

  • BONG! (Score:3, Funny)

    by taxevader ( 612422 ) on Thursday February 10, 2005 @12:23AM (#11626485)
    About 2/3 of the way through the article:

    'Finally came the big test - with everything attached I hit the switch. BONG...it's alive! '

    No buddy, a BONG is the thing you were smoking when you came up with this inane idea. Whats next, putting the ipod into an old-school walkman shell?

    8)

  • What's next? Man connects printer to Mac Mini? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by groomed ( 202061 ) on Thursday February 10, 2005 @01:32AM (#11626947)
    Is anybody actually surprised that you can connect a hard drive to a Mac Mini?

    Or am I too jaded? Is the great feat here that somebody managed to open a computer case?

    Or does the Mac Mini contain salvaged Area 51 technology which shoots lasers when exposed, and did he develop a force field generator to be able to safely locate the ATA connector?

    Or did his wife expressly forbid him from buying the Mac Mini, and has he frozen his wife inside a time bubble while devising a way to hide the Mac Mini?

    But then how does he unfreeze her?

    Can't wait to hear what happens next!

  • The Internal Conversations of The Converted (Score:5, Funny)

    by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) * on Thursday February 10, 2005 @03:14AM (#11627460)
    Mac Mini in mini-ATX case boots for furst time

    Mac Mini:
    That's odd, it feels so drafty... my case I can't feel my case! What is going on? Wait, computer two across the room has an iSight!

    Mac mini opens iChat and connects to Computer Two

    Mac Mini:
    That's odd, I can't see myself anywhere... zoom in... refine picture... there's nothing just that giant brick and.... ... ..
    THE HORROR!!!

    Mac Mini connects power supply to ground directly across processor core - bet you didn't know it could do that! HCF opcode lives on.

  • just crying out for using standard PC hardware (Score:3, Interesting)

    by nomadicGeek ( 453231 ) * on Thursday February 10, 2005 @09:53AM (#11628934)
    The point of the mini was to win converts by offering a low entry point to the Mac. They can't be making much if any margin on the thing.

    They would probably make more money by just selling a version of OS X for standard PC hardware. They could sell it for $149 with a $99 annual maintenance fee. Start adding up extra sales of iLife, etc and you could be talking about real money.

    The problem with the mini is that it is still a fairly high price just to try. I also think that the performance is not going to stand up to a standard PC at that price point which would have a much faster and larger hard drive and more RAM.

    How about putting OS X for the PC out there with a free 60 day trial? Imagine being able to install OS X on an existing Windows PC that was rotten with spy ware. People would gladly pay the $149 to keep it. I know people who are shelling out $100 out of desperation just for a virus scanner and cheesy anti-spy ware software that they hope will fix the problem only to fall victim again. If Apple developed an easy way to install OS X over Windows while saving documents, pictures, etc. they would have a real winner on their hands.

    Apple would make more money this way and they wouldn't have to tie up the capital required to manufacture and distribute the hardware. They could still sell the higher end hardware which they probably make a good margin on. There will always be that small group that want a real Mac.

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