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The Courts Government Hardware Entertainment Games News

Sony Ordered to Pay For Dual Shock Tech 46

Posted by Zonk from the oh-that-was-yours? dept.
GamesIndustry.biz is reporting that a ruling against the Japanese software giant has been handed down in the case of Immersion vs. Sony. Immersion sued the company over the force feedback effect experienced in the dual-shock controller, which it has a patent on. From the article: "Now a Californian district court has ordered Sony to pay a 1.37 per cent license fee based on sales of the PlayStation console and of the named videogames, to be paid quarterly effective from July 1st."
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Sony Ordered to Pay For Dual Shock Tech More

Sony Ordered to Pay For Dual Shock Tech

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  • Ditch it (Score:3, Interesting)

    by BlackEyedSceva ( 798150 ) on Friday January 14, 2005 @02:49PM (#11365936)
    Anybody think they will just ditch the technology in the next Playstation?
    • no. they'll just invent a way to get around the patent somehow..

      or they'll just license(this is basically a license anyhow now..), like ms.

      anyone got some deeper info to the patent? and are you infringing only if you are seller of the pad with little motors AND seller of software that makes those little motors spin?

    • Re:Ditch it (Score:3, Interesting)

      by tprime ( 673835 )
      Or, because this is only a US court, Sony might decide to remove the forced-feedback component from the controllers sold in the USA while still selling them in Japan. They have split markets in the past with the Playstation and other electronics, I don't know why they wouldn't consider it in this situation.

      If this happens, the market for imported PS3 controllers will be a big one.

  • Does anyone know... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Heftklammerdosierer! ( 846009 ) on Friday January 14, 2005 @02:49PM (#11365940)
    Immersion holds patents for force feedback technology which cover certain aspects of the rumble effect used in game joypads

    to which aspects this refers?

    • Re:Does anyone know... (Score:2, Informative)

      by neura ( 675378 )
      Quote from Gamespot.Com article:

      The company holds patents for what it calls "vibro-tactile" technologies that make the video game player feel as if he is "touching" an object in the game.

      http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/09/23/news_610 82 98.html

  • Hmmmmm..... (Score:4, Funny)

    by Lobo ( 10944 ) on Friday January 14, 2005 @02:52PM (#11365972) Homepage
    I wonder what effect this will have on the sale of women's "Adult Toys"?
  • This judge is saying that 1.37% of the fun of a Playstation is linked to force feedback? I find it more annoying than anything, and I generally turn off vibration. I imagine Sony probably will just drop it...but this begs the question...aren't all the other vibration controller manufacturers then also guilty of this?
    • I find it more annoying than anything, and I generally turn off vibration.

      I tend to agree with you here. I don't find that it adds much to the game.

      From the article
      Immersion holds patents for force feedback technology which cover certain aspects of the rumble effect used in game joypads, and also named Microsoft as a defendant in its original lawsuit in 2002 - but the Xbox manufacturer settled out of court in July 2003 by signing a licensing agreement with the firm.

      So other vibration controller manuf

    • Re:So... (Score:5, Informative)

      by tprime ( 673835 ) on Friday January 14, 2005 @03:26PM (#11366389)
      xBox already settled with Immersion to the tune of $26 million

      http://news.com.com/Microsoft+settles+suit+with+Im mersion/2100-1041_3-5056455.html

      • Re:So... (Score:4, Informative)

        by KDR_11k ( 778916 ) on Friday January 14, 2005 @04:04PM (#11366957)
        ... and Nintendo has patented rumble before Immersion has.
        I've compared the patents the last time something relating to Immersion was posted, Immersion has patents for all kinds of variations of controllers (e.g. a controller with two analog sticks and two rumble motors as seen here, a joystick with rumble, etc) but Nintendo holds the patent for rumble with a single unit in a gamepad or something like that. Immersion's patents even reference Nintendo's patents for prior art but claim that because they cover different input devices they aren't conflicting with N's earlier patents. I'd call that a trivial step up but whatever.

    • Re:So... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 14, 2005 @03:39PM (#11366590)
      I find it more annoying than anything, and I generally turn off vibration.

      It depends on how it's used. If it just shakes when something blows up, big whoop. But it can be used to communicate various things to the player better than just visual and audio cues in some cases. I can immediately come up with three games that used vibration to good effect in different ways.

      In F-Zero X for the N64, the rhythm of the pulses told you how well you were sticking to the track. Actually being able to feel the track beneath you made it easier to use slides and maintain control through difficult turns.

      In Rogue Leader for the Gamecube, there was so much green laser fire flying around that it was sometimes hard to tell whether you were actually being hit, but the controller shook every time you were. Sure, sound effects clued you in as well, but I always noticed and reacted to the shaking first, almost reflexively.

      In the Wind Waker, the opportunity for a counterattack was marked by both an icon on screen and a quick thump of the controller. I almost always nailed the timing because I felt the controller vibrate well before I noticed the icon. Plus, I never needed to actually watch for the icon, so I could concentrate on the action.

      I think the key is that the rumble should be subtle enough that you don't really think about it during gameplay any more than you think about what you see and hear. If it shakes enough for you to notice, it can only be a distraction that pulls you out of the experience.
      • In addition to those examples I find it pretty useful in driving games that lack true forcefeedback. Being able to feel the tires begin to reach maximum grip in a turn seems to help me react better then just the audio would. I agree though that it's overused in some games. If they use it sporadically it packs more punch.

  • License fee on particular games? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by UWC ( 664779 ) on Friday January 14, 2005 @03:02PM (#11366105)
    According to the article, there were about 40 video games listed in the initial suit that purportedly violated the patents. Does anyone know what in the games violated the patents? Would it be any game that utilized the rumble feature? If that's the case, Immersion is wanting fees for not only the hardware that includes the feature, but also for software that has the audacity use features included in the hardware?

    Also, weren't there questions the last time this made Slashdot about the validity of Immersion's patents? Prior art in the N64's rumble pack or something? I don't recall. Also, did Immersion ever do anything with the idea, or just get a patent and sit around waiting for market saturation of the feature?

  • Where is Nintendo in this? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by xenocide2 ( 231786 ) on Friday January 14, 2005 @03:11PM (#11366226) Homepage
    Nintendo was probably the first to market with a rumble device, with the release of Star Fox 64 in 1997. The articles say the lawsuits are over force feedback, which could mean many things. The technical term would be some form of variable resistance applied to the joystick or something, but rumble features are often considered "force feedback." The PS2 has pressure sensative face buttons, which could cause one to contemplate. The Immersion website seems to promote the rumble aspect of force feedback, so clearly Nintendo could be liable.

    Immersion's gone after the other big two (sucessfully), is Nintendo next? Perhaps, but Nintendo's no slouch when it comes to patents themselves, and perhaps Immersion doesn't wish to lose their own patent viability in a court battle with Nintendo. I wonder, if the Immersion and Nintendo patents are similar, if Nintendo can sue for damages and a share of the wealth...
    • Immersion's patents are a trivial step up from Nintendo's rumble patents by referencing different controller types and claiming that's enough to differentiate themselves from N's prior art. In other words Immersion's patents specifically exempt Nintendo as Nintendo was there first and trying to lay claim on N's rumble would invalidate Immersion's patents as N held the patent first.
      • Heh heh, I wonder if Nintendo could, in turn, sue Immersion for sueing Sony and Microsoft over something that's really feels like it's more oriented towards Nintendo's patents?

        Probably not, but it'd be good because they'd effectively be taking Sony's money.
    • Guys, Nintendo can't claim prior art anyway. If you read this Immersion Technologies Press Release about Gamecube [shareholder.com] then you'll see that Nintendo has liscensed the patents already. You're right, Nintendo is no slouch about patents, but with how they go after them, they know better than to try and get around them.

      I believe immersion holds the patents for all the original force-feedback stuff coming out for computers back in the later 90's too.
      • Good link, but apparently you didn't read it. It says that Logitech has licensed technology that will be used in a steering wheel controller which will come out for Gamecube. The article has nothing to do with Nintendo or first party gamecube controllers.
  • What the heck is a "1.37 per cent license fee"? Is that 1.37 cents per console/controller sold or a typo and 1.37 percent of some unspecified number?

    • Re:How Much? (Score:2, Informative)

      by Headcase88 ( 828620 )
      It's 1.37%, so for every $100 Sony makes off of the stuff they're getting sued over, they must hand over 1 dollar and 37 cents to Immersion.

      According the article, this is about $27 million a year.

  • Immersion patents (Score:3, Informative)

    by xgamer04 ( 248962 ) <<xgamer04> <at> <yahoo.com>> on Friday January 14, 2005 @05:01PM (#11367838)
    I dug up these three patents that Immersion Corp apparently holds: 6,366,273 [uspto.gov] 6,271,833 [uspto.gov] 6,184,868 [uspto.gov].

    I think that something this simple really shouldn't be given a patent. But since it has, I think I'll patent "audio notification of consumable liquid boiling point" and charge all tea kettle manufacturers exorbitant licensing fees :P

    PS: This is not a seriously researched opinion, IANAL, etc.

    • Re:Immersion patents (Score:3, Informative)

      by cgenman ( 325138 )
      In simpler terms, patent 1 is a vibrating joystick, patent 2 is a force-feedback joystick (over 2 busses, yadda yadda), patent 3 I think it a vibrating joystick but it could be describing a really excited bug.

      In other words, yes, it is a bogus patent.

  • DIY rumble seat (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Mostly Monkey ( 454505 ) on Friday January 14, 2005 @09:30PM (#11370527)
    One of the niftiest things I picked up on while setting up my home theater were some bass shakers. Once set up correctly it causes your chair or entire couch to rumble along with your subwoofer. All you need is a cheap pair of transducers (speaker core without the cone) like the Aura Bass shakers ($30ish a pair) and a cheap amp to drive them ($50 or so if not free. Preferably one that has an output level control for tweeking the amount of shaking). Attach them securely to the framework of the seat and split your linelevel subwoofer output to feed both the sub and the amp for the shakers. The sub output will only send low frequency signals so you don't have to worry about the couch shaking during dialog or other higher frequences.

    There's a huge thread about it at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&t hreadid=330436/ [avsforum.com].
    • Hmmm, I would have thought that that was on-topic. Perhaps I should have called it a "forcefeedback" seat since that seems to be the current description of rumble effects. *rolls eyes*

  • First...This is bad. Patents are great, but did this company actually make these products that use their patent? Patents should be like trademarks, in which you actually have to use it, and produce it, with PROOF, to keep it. Terrible news.

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