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Wireless Networking Hardware IT

Belkin Offering Pre-802.11N Products 213

Posted by CmdrTaco from the bytes-in-the-backyard dept.
redshield3 writes "Belkin is offering what it is calling "pre-802.11n" products for mass consumers now. CompUSA is reportedly carrying these items in stores. They claim 800% range improvement over 802.11g as well as full backwards compatibility and the ability to continue pushing out n-speeds when a 802.11g or 802.11b device is introduced to the network."
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Belkin Offering Pre-802.11N Products More

Belkin Offering Pre-802.11N Products

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  • Pre? (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 09, 2005 @12:32PM (#11304410)
    Surely that makes it 802.11M?

  • My Clients don't complain about speed (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 09, 2005 @12:33PM (#11304414)

    however wifi range is a constant headache for me
    • This Belkin unit is the sweetest network device I've had the pleasure to work with. The range is phenomenal and the speed (with multiple devices connected) is very nice, too.

      I confess, I've been a long-time fan of Belkin wireless products (it's about all the gear I've used of theirs). I buy Belkin WiFI products first; Netgear if Belkin isn't available; Any other brand just dissappoints.

      Mi dos centavos.
      • I could never buy another Belkin product after their spyware [theregister.co.uk] bullshit.

        Why in the world would I want to trust them? They've shown contempt for the consumer.

        • Well, that was software (parental control, no less) working in conjunction with the router -- not the router itself -- to blame. The customer paid the typical price of "free" commecial software.

          So, Belkin is into spyware. Who [microsoft.com] isn't [cnn.com] these [yahoo.com] days [aol.com] in [ebay.com] one [amazon.com] form [google.com] or [us.gov] other [slashdot.org]?

          Why in the world would I want to trust them? They've shown contempt for the consumer.

          Better start stockpiling your dollars under your bed. Who you gonna trust?
    • Same here - no complaints about performance. When you uplink is only 15Mbps, 802.1b is fine for the most part. Coverage concerns come up.

      The only person who thinks that we need to have G/A/whatever else is my boss, who I think looks at wireless speed like others look at big stereo speakers - overcompensating for something else :)

  • Fry's Electronics (Score:5, Insightful)

    by azadam ( 250783 ) on Sunday January 09, 2005 @12:33PM (#11304415)
    I saw one of these on the shelf the other day. The price wasn't much higher than for 802.11g options.... my biggest question would be whether a firmware upgrade would necessarily be able to bring these into full 802.11n compatibility once the standard is ratified?

    It would suck to end up locked into a dead-end solution like that, but if it can be patched to become standard.... I might think about trying it out.

    • Re:Fry's Electronics (Score:5, Informative)

      by kanweg ( 771128 ) on Sunday January 09, 2005 @12:37PM (#11304440)
      Well, it seems to work for 802.11g now, which will continue to work once 802.11n is ratified. So, if it isn't much more expensive, you haven't lost much, do you?

      Bert

    • Re:Fry's Electronics (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Araxen ( 561411 )
      They are not guaranteeing that they will be firmwire upgradeable. There are 2 standards at the moment and if the wrong standard is chosen and ratified the pre-N stuff will non-firware upgradeable.

    • Re:Fry's Electronics (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Jeff DeMaagd ( 2015 ) on Sunday January 09, 2005 @01:28PM (#11304715) Homepage Journal
      I think the firmware should be upgradeable, the question is whether Belkin should be trusted. I've avoided buying any of their products after they've made a firewall that deliberately served up adware.
      • Agreed, Belkin is a shoddy company.
      • That firewall of which you speak advertised a Belkin service, it didn't serve serve adware, which is advertising software which becomes installed on one's local machine.

        Also, the option to disable this was one of the first things on the first page in the setup utility.

        If someone even went into their device's config to perform the most basic securing, they'd see the options to adjust this readily available.
    • I got one of their Pre-N routers last week, and I like it quite a bit. The range is awesome, the web-based intergace is great, and the WAN port has a programmable MAC address. I'm enjoying my new router quite a bit.
    • As far as I know, the two standards competing for the 802.11n title are hardware-incompatible, so you can't firmware from one to the other (like the US Robotics/Flex debacle with 56K modems). I'm thinking that the release of these pre-n products is a bid to get an installed base of one competing standard to aid in justifying the award of the 802.11n name.

  • Old News (Score:5, Informative)

    by beaverbrother ( 586749 ) on Sunday January 09, 2005 @12:33PM (#11304416)
    This is not new news, they were advertising them in november.

    • Re:Old News (Score:3, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      This is not new news
      You must be new here.

    • November? (Score:3, Funny)

      by HermDog ( 24570 )
      Heck, we were using pre 802.11N stuff back in the late 80s. It was so 'pre' it would only work reliably if you plugged the other ends of the antenna into other machines in your network.

  • Real-world speed, though (Score:4, Interesting)

    by invisik ( 227250 ) * on Sunday January 09, 2005 @12:34PM (#11304425)
    So what is the real-world speed of these rated-108mbps devices? Half? Third? Anyone tested one yet?

    -m

  • Here's what they're claiming (Score:4, Informative)

    by scubacuda ( 411898 ) <scubacuda@gmaiREDHATl.com minus distro> on Sunday January 09, 2005 @12:34PM (#11304426)

    Advantages
    • 800% greater coverage than standard 802.11g - Belkin Pre-N provides the industry's best wireless coverage, extending your range with improved reliability and fewer drops.
    • 600% greater speeds than standard 802.11g - Belkin Pre-N provides the industry's fastest wireless connection for gaming, streaming video, Voice over IP, and moving large files efficiently and quickly between all the devices in your networked home.
    • Improved performance of standard 802.11g and 802.11b networking devices - Using a Belkin Pre-N Router or Card with an older 802.11g or 802.11b networking product increases wireless coverage up to 20%.
    • Improved resistance to wireless interference - Belkin Pre-N products sense potential interference and dynamically shift to the clearest wireless channel available.
    • Belkin Pre-N products do not drop to the lowest networking speed in a mixed-mode environment - If a standard 802.11g or 802.11b device is introduced into a Belkin Pre-N network.
    • The Belkin Pre-N product will not drop to the standard 802.11g or 802.11b speeds - Belkin Pre-N products will continue to transmit at a link rate of 108Mbps, a result competing products cannot achieve.
    • Advanced Security - Wi-Fi® Protected Access (WPA) support provides enhanced encryption protecting your wireless network.
    • Pop-up Blocker - 6 months of free pop-up, adware, and spyware stopper
    • Web Content/Parental Control Filter - Web Content/Parental Control Filter 6 months of free built-in parental Control/Web Content Filter provides over 50 fully configurable filters that allow you to block websites and images.


    Are they using real "n" technology? Or is it just their particular flavor of "n"?

    • The N standard isn't even finalizd yet. The problem is -- when someone goes ahead an releases hardware when the standard isn't written, it ties the hands of the working group writing the standard. If I were them I'd tweak something to make the belkin shit (and yes, its shit) worthless :)
      • The firmware upgradable, so unless they made some huge changes to the standard I think Belkin is going to be fine.

        Belkin isn't exactly a huge player anyways. They have a decent market share, but one would assume that Cisco/Linksys and Netgear are much bigger players.
        • My experience with Belkin is this: I have an 802.11b router (that I got well after the 802.11b standards were eatablished). It never did work right. Tech support was useless. The firmware is, in theory, upgradeable. I waited for a firmware fix. Finally I found new firmware on the Belkin site; but it is for version V2 of the router model that I have. I, and many others, have version V1 of the hardware. No firmware fix is available, we're just screwed. I see no reason to expect Belkin to do better on a techn
          • Last I was reading of pre-N stuff (a co worker was interested in it) they haven't even settled what frequencies N will use, or how wide the signal will be, these are some pretty big changes that could be made.

  • Bad luck in past (Score:2, Interesting)

    by andywebz ( 794668 )
    I've had bad luck in the past with pre-standard equipment, but this one sounds pretty good. It seems to only be missing one of the features of the n standard. I thought N had essentially "wireless switching", in that the wireless bandwidth was not divided when multiple connections were established. If everything else lives up to their hype, this could be a good stop gap solution until the standard equipment comes out 3rd quater this year.

    • Re:Bad luck in past (Score:4, Interesting)

      by LWATCDR ( 28044 ) on Sunday January 09, 2005 @01:08PM (#11304598) Homepage Journal
      If the 802.11n does make these no compliant you could pick them up cheap for say a point to point connection. If fact if the real 802.11n does not work with them it could even be a plus.

  • I spy... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Realistic_Dragon ( 655151 ) on Sunday January 09, 2005 @12:36PM (#11304437) Homepage
    ...another wireless standard significantly harmed by not-quite interoperable implimentations produced by ass-hat vendors.
    • you're not wrong. at least let's hope this time around they make the relevant stuff flash-upgradable so that when the spec is ratified it doesn't just sit on it's old "pre-N" spec...

      -- james

  • Linux (Score:4, Interesting)

    by maeka ( 518272 ) on Sunday January 09, 2005 @12:38PM (#11304448) Journal
    But can they run Linux? http://www.linksys.com/products/product.asp?grid=3 3&scid=35&prid=601 [linksys.com]

    • Re:Linux (Score:3, Insightful)

      by scubacuda ( 411898 )
      Not sure why this is considered "off-topic." I think it's a good question. Does Belkin let you hack up their OS like Linksys? Cause if so, I'd like to see someone implement the "wireless switching" that 802.11n is supposed to have.

      • Re:Linux (Score:3, Insightful)

        by maeka ( 518272 )
        My point exactly.
        Open source firmware can greatly expand not only the feature set of a piece of hardware, but also its useful lifespan. For a perfect example just take a look at all the features added by Svesoft's firmware for the WRT54G series. (please let's not get into a debate over Svesoft's source publishing practices, I just used them as an example, there are many active projects modifying Linksys firmware)
        Because of Linksys's use of a Linux based firmware we are not dependent on them to patch vulne

  • Stuck at Pre-N (Score:2, Redundant)

    by IO ERROR ( 128968 ) *
    The question to ask is, are these things field upgradeable when the 802.11n standard is final? The site doesn't answer this question. You could be left with a very expensive b/g router/AP.

    • Re:Stuck at Pre-N (Score:5, Informative)

      by eggboard ( 315140 ) * on Sunday January 09, 2005 @01:06PM (#11304590) Homepage
      When 802.11n is ratified possibly as late as Nov. 2006, it will likely include speeds at least twice as high as the Belkin product. There are a few different MIMO proposals under consideration, and they will likely be merged with faster speeds and options as optional and a lower speed and tech as mandatory.

      But the problem with Belkin and other MIMO solutions is that even if they turn out to be fully 802.11n compatible, they won't do the highest possible speeds. Those highest speeds will likely not cost any more (and maybe less) than the pre-N/MIMO stuff costs today.

      So EVEN if you'll be able to upgrade MIMO now to 802.11n in 2006--and that's a huge if and no companies are promising this even in the slighest--you won't get the real speed bump that 802.11n promises.

      If you don't need 50 to 70 Mbps of real throughput on your network today, stick with cheap, interoperable 802.11g.
    • Whoever wants to update their g network to pre-n will be more then willing to update their pre-n with real-n in 2007.
  • There are a plethora of articles out there right now describing the chance you take buying "pre-N" wireless gear. Since there is no N standard yet, none of these companies can claim with any certainty thier product will be N compatable. If you buy one of these products, go in expecting that it won't work with true N when the spec is actually released.

  • SHIT! We're running out of ending letters! (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 09, 2005 @12:53PM (#11304521)
    What will happen when we get to 802.11z?
  • Linksys WRT54GX: http://www.linksys.com/products/product.asp?prid=6 70&scid=35 [linksys.com] is a unofficial pre-N router.
    Anyone want to take a guess why 802.11n takes 3 antenna and 802.11g has two or one?

    • Re:Linksys' Pre-N Router (Score:3, Informative)

      by Chmarr ( 18662 )
      Because 802.11n takes advantage of spatial multiplexing to increase throughput, and that requires multiple antennas.

      The OTHER way to increase throughput is making the protocol more efficient (which 'n' does, as well, which is why belkin is claiming a 600% increase, rather than a 200% increase), or increasing the utilised spectrum (which 'n' does not do).


    • improved diversity

      "Anyone want to take a guess why 802.11n takes 3 antenna and 802.11g has two or one?"

    • With 3 antennas, you can phase the array to create directional lobes on the fly, and the 'appearance' of a stronger signal in a specific direction. It also means with almost certainty, that you cant swap the antennas on board for offboard higher gain antennas, as the entire package is tuned to the antenna geometry.

  • Same Song, Nth Verse (Score:2, Insightful)

    by fatman22 ( 574039 )
    We went through this with 56K modem and 802.11g standards. A vendor's marketing department tries to get the jump on everyone else by introducing equipment that is "pre-standard". People buy them to get the latest whiz-bang capability and either don't care about the consequences or are too clueless to understand them. If the approved standard turns out to be what the equipment uses then the company is home free with an existing market share. If not then marketing beats on engineering to put together a minimu
  • Other manufacturers (Sun, Rio, etc) have released product with a full set of 'features' that, when you go to use them, return a message such as "This feature not yet implemented".

    At least there is some effort to tell people that these aren't up to snuff yet.

    And wouldn't it just be a huge marketing blitz if everyone bought these and they pulled the Sun Microsystems "Oh, you mean you're going to make us support that feature? That'll cost ya..."

    Sorry I'm a bit bitter at manufactures pulling this and I thin
    • It probably is (deceptive advertising is already against the law) but unless somebody hits them with a big lawsuit and wins, they won't see any reason to change their behavior. Their tactics work, they make money, the shareholders are happy. That's the downside of cut-rate products, cutthroat competition and concomitant low margins ... companies are highly motivated to, shall we say, push the envelope on ethical practices because even a slight edge on the competition really helps the bottom line.

  • Old news (Score:2, Informative)

    by MHobbit ( 830388 )
    NetGear or Linksys already made Pre-802.11N equipment.

    I hope that Linksys will give free firmware updates being how good they are right now.

  • Remember Belkin's popups? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by havaloc ( 50551 ) * on Sunday January 09, 2005 @01:16PM (#11304649) Homepage
    Remember, this is the same Belkin which randomly tried to sell you Censorware [slashdot.org].
  • Walter Mossberg, technocurmudgeon for the Wall Street Journal, loved the Belkin pre-N products (WAP and PC Card). They eliminated all the usual dead spots in his home. He even went so far as to say that if you need the improved coverage and speed now, screw the fact that it might become obsolete with the official N spec release.
  • what will Apple call it? Airport Extravagant? Airport Extra Extreme? Airport Groovy?

    For the backward compatibility concerns I'm sure if we found the thread where Apple inroduced the Extreme family of routers in '02 or '03 whenever it was we'll find all sorts of 'how will they update em'

    So far, I've had no problems with my TiVos, ThinkPads, Powerbooks, and iMac's attaching in B and G modes to them so they must have figured it out.
  • How can they claim "WiFi Certified" at the begining of the advert for a "pre-n" product. Is this even legal?
    • It's like buying a car that was "certified pre-owned". The term implies that the vehicle was checked by some organization responsible for such things, but in reality it just means it is "certified" to be a used car. Same thing here, the implication is that it's "WiFi Consortium Certified", but in reality it just means that it is certified to be WiFi.
    • Sure. This router is not 802.11n compatible, but it is 802.11g compatible, and thus it can be Wi-Fi certified. The Wi-Fi Alliance doesn't care if a product has non-standard extra features (MIMO in this case) as long as it is compliant with the current standard (802.11g).
  • There's not much of an advantage to using this. Current Broadband is not fast enough to come close to needing this for internet. On the other hand for big bulk transfers from machine to machine on the network it would very handy or for streming from machine to machine (Airtunes). Right now though, I will stick with my g AP....of course I said that about my B AP last year....right before I got my WRT54G! :D

  • More free internet! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Sax Maniac ( 88550 ) on Sunday January 09, 2005 @01:55PM (#11304876) Homepage Journal
    I can't wait.

    My niece was visiting, and for whatever stupid reason, her middle school requires everyone have a laptop. (Insert rant about kids and computers here; apparently, using IM to chat about cute boyz is a new class they didn't have when I was in school. But I digreess.)

    I like to offer my net connection to guests so they can chat on vacation. So I point her to the nearest wall socket and ask if she needs a cable.

    "No, I'm just using the wireless connection. There's like 2 or 3 of them."

    Of course, at the time, I didn't have a wireless connection. But a few of my neighbors do: LINKSYS, LINKSYS, and, uh, LINKSYS.

    So, I'm all for more range. More free net access! And, this means I don't have to let anyone's spyware-ridden box on my home network when they visit.

    • Yeah, no kidding. In my neighborhood the number of active APs at any given time fluctuates between two or three and thirty or so. Some of them I swear are mobile, since I'll see a contractor van of some kind doing work in the area and an access point will appear, and disappear when they leave. Only one of the regulars is even secured.

  • Consumers? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by DroopyStonx ( 683090 ) on Sunday January 09, 2005 @02:03PM (#11304921)
    Anyone else disturbed by the fact that people are referred to as "consumers"?

  • BZZZZTTTTT! (Score:5, Informative)

    by Sai Babu ( 827212 ) on Sunday January 09, 2005 @02:06PM (#11304941) Homepage


    How many read this and said, WOW, I can go a km instead of this lousy 125m range I've got now?

    Visiting the parent referenced product description we learn that the statement, "They claim 800% range improvement over 802.11g" is
    UNTRUE!

    What they claim is 800% coverage improvement over 802.11g.

    The most gross correction comes if you note:
    The volume, or coverage, in which the thing will operate may be 800% greater, but volume goes as a cube of length (distance, range, radius, depending on contextual semantics). So your 800% coverage improvement translates to a 200% range increase.

    Add to this the myriad of devilish details which arise in any product comparison and the real world reange increase may be well less than times two.

  • Don't buy from Belkin (Score:3, Interesting)

    by cabalamat2 ( 227849 ) on Sunday January 09, 2005 @02:08PM (#11304948) Homepage Journal

    Remember, these are the guys who tried to sell you deliberately non-working kit [cabalamat.org].

    I don't buy from Belkin. I hope you choose not to, too.

  • Does anyone know if any of the 802.11n products have non-ndiswrapper drivers?
  • I saw these in the store the other day at either Staples or Best Buy. I hadn't heard of them before so I took a pretty good lock at the box. It sure did sound promising... the quotes speeds and more importantly the quoted distances were really impressive. The price was a little bit high, I think it was 125 for the card and 125 for the router, but give them a few months and I'm sure it'll be cheaper.

    I'm excited about distance improvements moreso than speed. Soon I'll be able to steal wireless connection
  • linky [wifinetnews.com]

    The worst part, in my estimation, is that this generation of MIMO technology isn't what the final 802.11n specification will look like. So purchasing MIMO today except for specific applications in which you need substantially higher throughput and range from a single device over interoperable, certified 802.11g means you're buying a dead-end device.

  • Linksys has the same thing (Score:3, Informative)

    by Wesley Felter ( 138342 ) <wesley@felter.org> on Sunday January 09, 2005 @03:14PM (#11305314) Homepage
    The WRT54GX [linksys.com] uses the same chips if you'd rather buy from Linksys than Belkin.
  • That's all very well. However, does anyone remember why we don't like Belkin? The fiasco with their redirecting routers a year or so ago? I swore them off back then. It's hard not to buy Belkin though, they have some great rebate deals, but I've stuck to it so far.

    • I have not looked up the reference, but I seem to recall that there is another reason to dislike Belkin and not purchase their products.

      If I recall correctly, Belkin was using Free Software components in one of their routers. They refused requests to make the source code for their router software available. This cause a bit of an uproar on Slashdot. There were some complaints lodged with Belkin, if I recall (I wrote them). I don't know if they reformed or not.

      As a result, for low end home routers


  • ... sounds huge but could be as "little" as 1.52x in the +X, -X, +Y, -Y and +Z directions. With antennas that don't radiate appreciably outside the horizontal plane it could be as much as 1.68x. ("Coverage" probably infers either the area or volume of signal).

  • 'CompUSA is reportedly carrying these items in stores'

    Reportedly? We've been carrying these things for quite a long time now, a few months at least. They generally take up 90% of the Belkin area, and usually there's a table on the floor near networking with Pre-N equipment piled high on it.

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