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AMD Portables Hardware

Photos and Commentary On AMD's PIC 394

Posted by timothy from the such-a-cute-box dept.
vincecate writes "I just purchased a brand new AMD PIC which has been on Slashdot and LinuxDevices. I have opened it up and put some pictures and comments on the web. Some interesting things are that the system uses only 8 watts, the Windows CE does not want you installing any software, you can not get to the BIOS settings, and I was not able to boot Linux." (He was able, though, to boot Linux from an IDE device on a mini-ITX system also based on the Geode processor.)
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Photos and Commentary On AMD's PIC More

Photos and Commentary On AMD's PIC

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  • Geez... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by k4_pacific ( 736911 ) <k4_pacific@yahoo . c om> on Wednesday December 08, 2004 @09:27AM (#11031564) Homepage Journal
    "Windows CE does not want you installing any software, you can not get to the BIOS settings,"

    It might as well not even have a keyboard or monitor port. Yeesh.

    • Re:Geez... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by NanoGator ( 522640 ) on Wednesday December 08, 2004 @09:43AM (#11031693) Homepage Journal
      "It might as well not even have a keyboard or monitor port. Yeesh."

      Didja read the bit about who the target audience is and what it does do?

      • Re:Geez... (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Vo0k ( 760020 )
        Yep. Putting things simply, it's a crippled Microsoft demo almost-giveaway product.

        They use it to show Windows and MS products. People CAN'T use it for anything else. This way if they want more, they need to pay real money and next time they buy something "bigger" they certainly won't get any fancy "linux" or "Mac", because they know Windows already.

        Remember, the first one is free.
        • "They use it to show Windows and MS products."

          AMD is pushing MS's products?
          • AMD is providing hardware platform and providing a method to hide Microsoft...

            What is being sold?
            Is it a small, minimalistic platform by AMD, running third party (Microsoft's) OS?
            Or is it crippled WinCE bundled with a third party (AMD) platform it can run on?
        • Free like beer, yes; but not FREE like nux.

  • Put ReactOS on it. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by isolation ( 15058 ) on Wednesday December 08, 2004 @09:28AM (#11031568) Homepage
    seeing as it has limited hardware or software support under Windows CE if they must have a Windows-like OS then we could get ReactOS running on it.
    • One would question why they went with Windows CE. Microsoft must have given them an amazing price otherwise it simply would have eaten up too much of the $195. I'm guessing MS is selling them copies at less than $5 a pop, but who know.

      Wouldn't this truly be something much better suited to use Linux or some other freely available OS?

      I'll answer my own question (as it is obvious): Yes.

  • Linux on PIC (Score:5, Informative)

    by MoxFulder ( 159829 ) on Wednesday December 08, 2004 @09:31AM (#11031597) Homepage
    This article on LinuxDevices [linuxdevices.com] discusses the possibility of installing Linux on the PIC.

  • how about a useful link... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Lumpy ( 12016 ) on Wednesday December 08, 2004 @09:32AM (#11031603) Homepage
    Like where to buy one?

    I would certianly like to get one to tinker with and make do things that are against the wishes of the manufacturer.
    • same here...i am also interested in buying one since they are low power, fanless, and would make a good hardware/software hacking project :-)

  • Boot problem (Score:5, Insightful)

    by spotteddog ( 234814 ) on Wednesday December 08, 2004 @09:36AM (#11031642) Journal
    The problem booting from the CF card is probablly just a partition type or signature thing. It would be interesting to hook the hard drive from the PIC up to a working Linux box (as hdb or hdc) and poke around to see how it is partitioned. Maybe a block copy from the hard drive to the CF would create a booting CF based system. Granted it still would be running WinCE, but it would be a start.....

  • Cryptographic BIOS? (Score:5, Informative)

    by reality-bytes ( 119275 ) on Wednesday December 08, 2004 @09:39AM (#11031661) Homepage
    Apparently, the BIOS is designed by General Software [gensw.com] for AMD and features a 'cryptographic handshake' between BIOS and O/S.

    The Boot Security Application is a firmware application that establishes trust between platform hardware and the user application, preventing operation of systems compromised by unauthorized tampering with BIOS, OS, or application with cryptographic signatures on all trusted objects.


    This sounds like a horrible lock-in to Windows CE ie: "We only want you to run what we want you to run"

    However, in the same document:

    Supporting both Linux and Windows, the Boot Security Application requires the user application running under Linux or Windows to periodically (as defined by a policy established by the ODM/OEM in the system registry) request security challenges and provide challenge responses, convincing the Boot Security Application, which represents the hardware and firmware, that the application is genuine. Similarly, the Boot Security Application responds to out-of-band challenges as requested by the user application, to convince the user application that it is running on genuine hardware and firmware.


    So it now looks more like; "You can run another O/S but only if all the software is registered with us first"

    The first line of attack with getting Linux running on an AMD PIC would appear to be by simply contacting General Software and asking if they are willing to provide some advice (Its worth a try).

    • Re:Cryptographic BIOS? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Lehk228 ( 705449 ) on Wednesday December 08, 2004 @09:49AM (#11031737) Journal
      sounds to me like the point is to provide some serious virus/trojen/spyware hardening for sale in an environment full of new users and poor availability of tech support.

    • Apparently, the BIOS is designed by General Software

      Is this the company that also developed the famous "General Protection Fault"?

    • Re:Cryptographic BIOS? (Score:2, Insightful)

      by anum ( 799950 )
      I suspect that they (AMD) don't want you to think of this as a general purpose PC but rather more like an embedded internet device. In other words, it is designed to always run in kiosk mode. It may limit its funtionality but it should also limit problems like spyware and mainstream apps that need a lot more horsepower than this thing has.

  • PIC? (Score:5, Funny)

    by gUmbi ( 95629 ) on Wednesday December 08, 2004 @09:39AM (#11031662)
    Did anyone else think 'programmable interrupt controller'? It's too early...

  • Reason why you can't fiddle with it (Score:5, Interesting)

    by magarity ( 164372 ) on Wednesday December 08, 2004 @09:40AM (#11031670)
    Look at the target market kids; some village in inner Mongolia or northeastern India saves up to buy a computer with the help of a government grant. The first thing that happens is someone accidentally screws up the BIOS settings or downloads and installs some flakey software. Wanna guess how easy it is to get a tech out to fix it? Be serious and stop your whining about WinCE and no BIOS access. It obviously isn't for you. The thing's capabilitis in terms of software/firmware were very carefully considered in light of its target demographic.

    • Re:Reason why you can't fiddle with it (Score:5, Interesting)

      by WARM3CH ( 662028 ) on Wednesday December 08, 2004 @09:55AM (#11031797)
      I agree. The design goals of this device is clearly are: Providing minimum requirments to access and browse the net, and do basic word processing and that's all! It should not require any service, patches for a long time. Many slashdotters many nor realize that design of such a system is quite different from normal PCs and is a completely different beast. You need a system to do something very basic, only do this job and do it right with no future need for any chagnes. This is logical to lock it in a way that making any changes to it be very difficult. Not only to protect it from the users, but also from all unknown possible future threats on the net. You can imagine millions of such simple machines round the world and far from any service center can be a very good target for spammers, black-hats and anyone who needs a hord of zobie machines. How would you design such a thing if you needed to do it with such a tight price limit?
    • I fully understand that reasoning. My question is, why not have the maker put a custom version of Linux on it and lock that down? I don't see the need to require the Microsoft tax on something that needs to be as inexpensive as possible, especially considering the target demographic.
      • What makes you think that Microsoft is "taxing" these boxes?
        Microsoft (and just about every other large company in the world) is more than willing to SUBSIDISE projects like this for market penetration. I wouldn't be suprised to find out that MS has at least helped with design if not funding.
        Remember, this box is intentionally limited. Consider it a teaser or loss leader. The first one is free...

        • Re:Reason why you can't fiddle with it (Score:4, Funny)

          by justins ( 80659 ) on Wednesday December 08, 2004 @10:33AM (#11032170) Homepage Journal
          Consider it a teaser or loss leader. The first one is free...

          Right. Becuase once they're hooked, those sub-Saharan Africans will be ready to shell out the big bucks for all sorts of software and electronics. AMD and Microsoft will have them right where they want them.

          Come on.
          • those sub-Saharan Africans will be ready to shell out the big bucks

            But when the kids (which are the gross majority of the population in many developing countries) grow up and specify computers for business & government, the seed will have been planted. The market for high-margin products in target countries might be small now, but it has huge potential for growth. Developed countries have most of the computers they need & only replace them every few years.

            Think long term....
      • I don't see the need to require the Microsoft tax

        No one in the Linux community is up for spending megabig bucks subsidizing low cost, low power PC hardware for the third world as a tax incentive or philanthropic gesture. Even at this thing's low base cost it still needs a display, kb, mouse, a way to get electrical power; nevermind a 'net access method and associated fees. All this adds up and the really poor people of the world could use a little help. So putting an MS product on it draws in a certai
    • Ofcourse, so installing a free operating system, say Linux, on a micro-budget PC was automatically discounted as "unreasonable" during their "carefully considered" design phase. What happens if/when there are 10 millions of these in some rural part of India and/or China, all susceptible to the same Zhombie Boxen WinCE virus and Beowulf Spam Cluster. I will tell you what. Everybody wonders why they get more spam now than ever.
      //RANT
    • It obviously isn't for you. The thing's capabilitis in terms of software/firmware were very carefully considered in light of its target demographic.

      Certainly true and certainly sounds reasonable. But in the bigger picture, these sort of locks are the kind of things the corporations that be would like to implement in all hardware/software. Is it really a service to the developing world to provide them computers where only the manufacturer has the root password?

      If they can get a zillion of these systems ou

  • flash drives and longevity (Score:4, Interesting)

    by MORTAR_COMBAT! ( 589963 ) on Wednesday December 08, 2004 @09:41AM (#11031674)
    I remember several years ago I was boasting about running some of my servers from Flash IDE drives, and I immediately was blasted with comments like: "yes, but you can only write to the Flash disk so many times before it fails". Any comments on that? Was that ever the case, and if so, is it still the case?
    • This thing would be ideal for kiosk or net-cafe type usage (low power, minimal moving parts), and in that sort of environment, the writes would be minimal, so I'd expect the flashcard's life expectancy to be fairly good.

    • The article mentioned this thing having a Seagate 10Gig Hard drive... I didn't see anything about a flash drive?
    • Depending on whose number you believe, flash drives are good for about 100k writes... not that such a number tells me how long it would last. Anyway, I'm working on a CF-based server, but the CF will be effectively read-only, as the file system will mount into a ram-drive... for what I'm needing, I don't need any additional writes (or I can mount a network drive or something).

    • Re:flash drives and longevity (Score:5, Informative)

      by The_countess ( 813638 ) on Wednesday December 08, 2004 @09:57AM (#11031822)
      you can change a bit of a flash drive about 100.000 times. for everyday use this is more then enough but linux changes a lot of things quite often so it wears out relativly quickly. there are however specialy distributions for flash drives that change verry little, and work almost exclusivly in RAM.

  • This would make a GREAT car computer (Score:3, Interesting)

    by TheUnFounded ( 731123 ) on Wednesday December 08, 2004 @09:42AM (#11031682)
    I'm planning my Senior design for next year, and it looks like its gonna involve a computer in a car (I know, original, eh?). The problem was going to be selecting the parts that'd be cheap enough and portable enough.

    This would be IDEAL; basically a hopped-up PDA with a regular full screen interface available. BUT: I don't want to run CE!! I know the poster hasn't been able to, but if anyone knows of a hack that has managed to put Linux on this beastie, please post!!
    • Why don't you just make a bong out of a kidney dialysis machine? Or play baseball with donor kidneys? These are boxes for poor people. They're not made for students in their expensive colleges to do "cool" projects. You are all concerned about your "Windows CE vs. Linux" choice, whereas the intended customers for this machine are more worried about feeding themselves and not getting shot at.

  • Why no Linux? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by ajs318 ( 655362 ) <sd_resp2NO@SPAMearthshod.co.uk> on Wednesday December 08, 2004 @09:45AM (#11031713)
    I'm highly disappointed that AMD isn't offering a Linux-based version, especially as there is no good reason not to -- Linux already can do everything this device is supposed to be able to do.

    This is merely more evidence supporting my theory that Microsoft are paying companies sizeable -- and very illegal -- cash bribes to actively not support other operating systems.

    • Re:Why no Linux? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by dave420 ( 699308 )
      Because no-one will support a linux install on the box, most likely.

      They use Windows because Microsoft will support the installations. They will custom-write a version of their own OS, and ensure it's as hardened as possible. Who's going to do that for a linux port? Which company is going to write the "encrypted handshake" software for Linux? Exactly. With no central "linux" organisation, no-one can do this work.

      Don't be disappointed with AMD - these boxes aren't for you. You're already on the inter

  • Windup power supply? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Ironsides ( 739422 ) on Wednesday December 08, 2004 @09:48AM (#11031734) Homepage Journal
    Considering that companies make Windup radios and flashlights [windupradio.com] I wonder if they could make a similar generator for the AMD PIC. Given, that the monitor would require more power, but the windup might supply enough wattage for the PC itself.
    • If there was enough current available to run the monitor it would be somewhat pointless to wind up the computer itself. Now a two-tone LCD display for it would be pretty nifty with a hand crank generator

  • Beginning reverse engineering (Score:5, Informative)

    by DanMc ( 623041 ) on Wednesday December 08, 2004 @09:49AM (#11031743)
    I think the first thing to do is take the WinCE drive and put it on a PC and make a 'dd' backup. Poke around, analyze it. Does it have a traditional partition table? dd clone onto a CF disk and see if it boots WinCE in the PIC?

    If there really is a well designed "OS Handshake" to boot, try to work around it. Can you let WinCE complete the handshake, then use something like 'bootlin' to bootstrap linux? I think there was an evolution of bootlin into the windows days but can't recall it's name.

    • These machines aren't for you. Just like you don't eat someone else's subsidised soup, you shouldn't buy this PC. Yes, it's cheap, but you can afford to buy a proper one. The people these boxes are intended for can't. If you take one, it means someone who needs one can't.

      that'd be cool with you?

      • There's no stamp on it that says, "Poor People Only". Besides I'm quite confident that the company would be happy to make more. He's not robbing a charity, he's purchasing a product. It just happens to be aimed at low cost markets.

        Just because I can afford an expensive product I should choose it over a cheaper one? That's not very resonable... especially since these folks are trying to satisfy their curiosity about a new piece of hardware.

        • These PCs are part of the 50x15 initiative [amd.com]. They're intended for poor countries. Any of these machines that get eaten up by rich people looking to play is as ridiculous as me washing my car in blood plasma.

      • Jeez Dave420 - smoke a bowl.
        • Monday was the first day the PIC was available in Anguilla and I bought the first one ...The PIC is a very low power system ... This is like 100 watts less than some other machines we have. At island electric rates this should save more than $200 each year, if the machine is on all the time.

        Quit repeating yourself - we all know it is your opinion that this device is only for 3d world people and that you think that 3d world residents are too unsophisticated to use technolog

  • Not meant to last (Score:4, Insightful)

    by rexguo ( 555504 ) on Wednesday December 08, 2004 @09:51AM (#11031760) Homepage
    I saw a Lithium CR232 battery in one of the photos. By making it hard to remove and voiding the warranty by opening it up, this thing is not meant to last for more than a couple of years for the regular Joe.
    • I could be meant as easy revenue in the repair department. There's nothing like charging someone $80 to remove some screws and change a battery.
      Of course by the time the battery dies the warranty will be dead too.

  • why called PIC? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by kcelery ( 410487 ) on Wednesday December 08, 2004 @09:51AM (#11031769)
    PIC seems to be a registered trademark of MICROCHIP, this is extracted from one of their web page:

    About Microchip Technology

    Microchip Technology Inc. (NASDAQ: MCHP) is a leading provider of microcontroller and analog semiconductors, providing low-risk product development, lower total system cost and faster time to market for thousands of diverse customer applications worldwide. Headquartered in Chandler, Arizona, Microchip offers outstanding technical support along with dependable delivery and quality. For more information, visit the Microchip website at www.microchip.com.
    ###
    Note: The Microchip name and logo, PIC and MPLAB are registered trademarks of Microchip Technology Inc. in the USA and other countries. PICDEM is a registered trademark of Microchip Technology Inc. in the USA and other countries. I2C is a trademark of Philips Corporation. SPI is a trademark of Motorola. Windows is a registered trademark of Microsoft. All other trademarks mentioned herein are the property of their respective companies

  • Install LinuxBIOS (Score:5, Informative)

    by LuxuryYacht ( 229372 ) on Wednesday December 08, 2004 @09:53AM (#11031777) Homepage
    LinuxBIOS supports the AMD Geodes. You'd have to do a little hardware hacking (flash in a socket, to allow recovery from a bad LinuxBIOS image) to get the first working image of LinuxBIOS working. After that it's just re-flash and you're up and running with LinuxBIOS!

    www.linuxbios.com

  • Shouldn't they be able to make this cheaper? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by slusich ( 684826 ) * <slusich@gmRASPail.com minus berry> on Wednesday December 08, 2004 @09:54AM (#11031785)
    $185 still seems like a pretty high price for something designed to provide access to the third world.
    Seems like they should be able to design a cheaper unit for this.

  • It's the software, stupid... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by martin-k ( 99343 ) on Wednesday December 08, 2004 @09:59AM (#11031838) Homepage
    *I* find the software on the PIC much more interesting than the hardware. But that's maybe because we wrote it... :-)

    See English [softmaker.de] or Portuguese [softmaker.de] article about the SoftMaker apps on AMD's PIC.

  • Personally, I'm of the philosophy that "if you made it, you can unmake it". I'm sure you can find a way to hack it and get a different OS on it, or add components.

    You just need to try harder :)

    • If you can't boot anything other than WinCE or XP Embedded, then it becomes a little harder at the minimum. Combine a goof-ball video adapter and sound adapter with no available specs and you've got a doorstop instead of a hacking project.
  • From the article:

    Another thing that causes computer failures on tropical islands is bugs or gecos getting inside.

    I didn't know they ported the GECOS operating system to X86. Thought it only ran on Honeywell and GE mainframes from the 70s.

    • I think he's referring to the GECOS field in /etc/passwd entries. By implication, he means that Unix getting inside the PIC is a bug.

      Heretic!

  • AMD is already exploring PIC Linux (Score:5, Interesting)

    by taj ( 32429 ) on Wednesday December 08, 2004 @11:18AM (#11032706) Homepage
    Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:06:53 -0600
    From: "Hale, Brad"
    To: Trent Jarvi
    Subject: RE: PIC Linux

    Trent, thanks for your interest in AMD's PIC. We have not entered an
    exclusive agreement with Microsoft and are currently working with a number of
    Linux developers for future support. Please check back on AMD's web site for
    future announcements regarding Linux support.

    Regards,

    Brad Hale
    Business Development
    Value Platforms
    Advanced Micro Devices
    (XXX) XXXX-XXXX

    -----Original Message----- ...

  • This thing is the future of computers (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Garak ( 100517 ) <chrisNO@SPAMinsec.ca> on Wednesday December 08, 2004 @01:18PM (#11034093) Homepage Journal
    This thing really is the future of computers. I know alot of geeks don't really want hear that.

    There really isn't any need for a large HD, 3d video, fast processor, upgradablity, etc... in an office PC or even a home PC. Something like this little box is all you need. Legacy free, simple, cheap, etc...

    The only software an office PC really needs is a webbroswer and all the applications can be webbased. This kind of goes back to the mainframe style computing of the 70's. Current broswers are not really suited for this but you get the idea.

    Once standards get alittle more defined there will be no need to upgrade a computer. Things are already leveling off in proformance. Its just the big companys trying to maintain upgrade cycles to keep the revenue streams going thats fueling faster processors.

    A PC for the people will just be a small box like this with a few USB ports, maybe USB 3.0 will become the standard. With a simple standardized interface so that no 3rd party drivers will be needed. No internal HD. Lots of ram, OS in rom, most apps will be internet based. This requires alot of future looking standards to be put in place.

    If so someone wants todo video editing, the video editing software will run right on the camcorder, they just plug the camcorder into the usb port and go. No need for the video files ever to see the PC. The DVD burner will be built right into the camcorder, this will be pushed by the copyright lobbist. Same goes for music...

    If someone wants to Play games they buy a console or play webbased games(kinda like flash games but with 3D maybe). The game console may not connect to the TV, it may just plug into a USB port.

    All these changes are going to be fueled by a few things.
    1) Copyright, PC's with HD's and burners make media copying to easy.
    2) People want simpler computers, the adverage person dosn't want to have to worry about upgrading or installing software or drivers. People want true plug and play. For this to work we need strict standards.
    3) Security - If you can't install any software than worms and virus can't install them selfs basicly. Its the only real solution to todays virus/worm/spyware problems.
    4) Price - people want cheaper PC's, by removing the drives and other moving parts PC's become cheaper and last longer.

    The only place left for us geeks will be on high priced servers where all the web/net based applications are done.
    • Alittle more to add to this rant...

      The PC could basicly just become an ethernet switch that connects the display, input devices(keyboard and mouse), speakers(with built in DAC and amp), and other media devices together. You just login to your ISP's 'mainframe' and your desktop is basicly just a trusted webpage from which you could use a webbroswer to browse to untrusted sites. You should beable to login to the trusted 'mainframe' from any computer anywhere in the world and have all your desktop settings,

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