Philadelphia Considers Free Citywide Wireless Access 480
The Associated Press is running an story about Philadelphia's city goverment seriously considering creating the world's largest hotspot.
"For about $10 million, city officials believe they can turn all 135 square miles of Philadelphia into the world's largest wireless Internet hot spot....the city would likely offer the service either for free, or at costs far lower than the $35 to $60 a month charged by commercial providers"
ME Benifits (Score:5, Insightful)
I know there is going to be many people that narrow mindedly say that the dollars could be spent on the poor or in some other avenue of no return. The city leaders have struck upon an idea that will actually revolve into a massive savings, data collection, data manipulation, data optimization threshold that will in turn benefit the entire population - it just wont be a direct "ME" benefit to everyone. I'm actually quite interested in seeing how this pans out.
Re:ME Benifits (Score:5, Funny)
Hey! I read water meters for a living, you insensitive clod!
Seriously, I think that's probably the biggest stumbling block to remote meter reading! All those unionized meter readers who would suddenly be out of work.
Re:ME Benifits (Score:2, Informative)
Re:ME Benifits (Score:2, Informative)
Re:ME Benifits (Score:3, Funny)
Seriously, I think that's probably the biggest stumbling block to remote meter reading! All those unionized meter readers who would suddenly be out of work.
Better keep the meter readers un-ionized, I for one wouldn't want any negative substances in my drinking water...
Re:ME Benifits (Score:2, Interesting)
All of which require people to do the work, they aren't simply "buy something big and expensive made somewhere else". So they'd be able to transfer the meter-readers to new jobs, some of which might be more interesting.
The money isn't going to vanish. Even if they stop taking it in taxes, there'll probably be more people going o
Re:ME Benifits (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:ME Benifits (Score:2)
And that would eliminate someone's job (and in the case of a city it's likely someone's family member's job). That just shouldn't happen in this period in time and it probably won't happen.
Re:ME Benifits (Score:3, Insightful)
Time to read Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand.
Re:ME Benifits (Score:2)
Re:ME Benifits (Score:2)
Re:ME Benifits (Score:3, Insightful)
Over the long term, increasing productivity is the strongest factor in determining a country's overall wealth.
Re:ME Benifits (Score:3, Interesting)
Also, however, there are savings to the consumer. Look at the gadgets and gizmos that are commonplace in most US homes
Re:ME Benifits (Score:3, Interesting)
You must have missed the N'Awlins part. We have the largest river in North America flowing through town. And enough rain to float the city, most years.
Won't be worried about water here until the next Ice Age, when the North American plate tilts under the weight of the glaciars enough to reverse the flow of the Mississippi.
Itemized billing for residential water won't actually prevent people
Re:ME Benifits (Score:3, Funny)
And then we can ban all cars and hire people to carry us around on litters. Or, better yet, we can just follow moveonplease.org's advice and create a federal bureaucracy so large it has to hire everyone in the country. Then we'll have full employment and no one will ever lose his job for anything other than unacceptable efficiency.
Re:ME Benifits (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:ME Benifits (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:ME Benifits (Score:2)
Yeah, its got to be cheaper to give a each of blue collar guys laptops with wireless connections vs their clipboard that they give to one person with a computer.
I have never, ever experienced any cost savings due to more efficient technogagets in terms of lower bills (that goes for "tax cuts" as well).
Re:ME Benifits (Score:3, Interesting)
However that's a non-starter in most occassions. The safety regulations & liability when it comes to any type of electronics are pretty severe. Putting a device requiring voltage into a currently mechanical water meter would require at the very least a huge amount of vetting and more likely simply wouldn't be doable at all.
From the standpoint of cost savings, however, a number of people here are missing the larger picture. Having those
Re:ME Benifits (Score:5, Interesting)
This is back of the envelope:
Let's say one guy can read 6 meters per hour (intentionally low)
In a full day's work, he can read 48 meters.
He works 5 days/week, 4 weeks/month, so that's 960 meters per month.
We'll say he gets paid $15 (intentionally high)per hour.
That's $2400 for reading 960 meters, or $2.50 per meter.
In order for the wireless self-reporting meters to save the city money, they need to have a monthly cost (including the amortized costs of purchase and installation) of less than $2.50--and even less if the meter-reader can check more than 6 meters in an hour or gets paid less than $15/hour. I really don't see how you'd get millions in savings from this. Furthermore, you still need someone to go out and check on the wireless meters that don't report in (for example, because the owner unplugged it). For the time being, I think some jobs are still best left to people.
(There are still probably lots of opportunities for savings and improvement, such as the traffic examples you cited. I just took issue with the wireless meter-reading part.)
Re:ME Benifits (Score:3, Informative)
So I guess there is savings in doing it automatically, but none of that will be included in savings for citywide wireless access.
Re:ME Benifits (Score:3, Interesting)
How about spending the money on schools? On inproved health care? On the public transportation system?
Or do these things just benefit the poor or will have no return?
>into a massive savings,
They are spending $1.5 million a year to maintain the network and there is no mention on how they can make up the savings. So I'm not sure where you got this from
Citywide WiFi? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Citywide WiFi? (Score:5, Informative)
health risks? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:health risks? (Score:5, Insightful)
If health groups have concerns about the ill effects of city-wide wireless access, let them prove that it causes ill effects. Otherwise, let innovation occur.
Re:health risks? (Score:2)
...how do you prove that you can't prove a negative??
Re:health risks? (Score:3, Insightful)
Hospitals probably aren't too worried about wireless networks based outside the physical confines of their building. Hospitals usually have a lot of concrete in them, and they attenuate things like cellular and WiFi signals pretty well. They get bent out of shape with cell phones because you're bringing an active rad
Re:health risks? (Score:2)
Re:health risks? (Score:3, Informative)
Yo (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Yo (Score:2)
Re:Yo (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Yo (Score:2)
Wow, this will attract more professionals, the pie guy will need a web developer.
mini-dialog (Score:4, Funny)
Graduate 2: "San Francisco is nice. Lots of tech there. Great weather. Lots of tech in northern Virginia. Or maybe Austin?"
Graduate 1: "Philly! Let's be successful bachelors in Philly!"
Graduate 2: "Um, dude, Philly is dirty. Auto insurance rates are sky high. It's been voted as the fattest city in the country. Summers are hot and humid, winters are cold and crappy. Their sports teams can't ever seem to get to the big game. The people are a bit rude...they even throw snowballs at Santa Clause."
Graduate 1: "They have WiFi"
Graduate 2: "I'm there!"
The previous dialog has been provided as a reality check for bright-eyed and bushy-tailed graduates and professionals. WiFi will not increase the quality of life in a city and draw people to it.
2008 newspaper headline (Score:4, Funny)
-psy
Re:2008 newspaper headline (Score:2)
-psy
I always wonder about... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:I always wonder about... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:I always wonder about... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I always wonder about... (Score:3, Informative)
So, there's a way that the authorities could trace some offence back to you if you committed it over a link from an Internet cafe that you paid for in cash?
Re:I always wonder about... (Score:5, Informative)
Regards,
Steve
Re:I always wonder about... (Score:3, Informative)
Finally, the Americans start to get it. (Score:5, Insightful)
The only way you can improve technology is by getting the public sector involved in a defining leadership role. If you leave it to the corps, they'll keep you at the horse-and-buggy stage forever, just to keep robbing you blind.
Let's hope this signals a trend.
Re:Finally, the Americans start to get it. (Score:4, Insightful)
And why we are still fighting infections with plain old penicillin, I mean the Drug Companies aren't making better drugs since they can string us along.
My, I still have to take injections of Testosterone rather than having some fancy new patch or gel that doesn't fry my liver since the good people at Watson http://www.androderm.com/p/what_is_androderm/inde
If only the government would get involved so our technology could be as advanced as the Welfare and Housing Developments in the inner cities are...
I'm not advocating war in Iraq (Score:3, Insightful)
>Those third-world "sweatshop" workers chose what they're doing, because the alternative (subsistence farming) is worse. It sucks to be them, but without capitalism it would suck to be them even more.
Who gets to decide what the "alternatives" are? In this case, the power isn't in the hands of those making the "choice" but those who decide what the "choice" is.
>Starvation, you say? Sorry, but big bad capitalist agribusiness has boosted food production well beyond any l
Freedom of use when it is city owned? (Score:5, Interesting)
I suppose that you get what you pay for when you are using a city-wide network (at ~$15) but shouldn't we be offering this without restriction on what you can visit?
Re:Freedom of use when it is city owned? (Score:2)
Then...
1) Get yourself a dedicated access line;
2) Set up Squid;
3) Use the free POPs now set up by the city, charge a small fee for "unfiltered" access;
4) Profit!
I'd love to have that contract (Score:4, Funny)
What do you bet that someone with really good connections gets the contract?
Free (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Free (Score:2)
Re:Free (Score:3, Interesting)
It's been been done before [manchesterwireless.org].
Re:Free (Score:3, Interesting)
Cities often spend money to improve their image and attract business, because they think it's a good investment. At least this benefits everybody and contribues to commerce in a reasonably direct way. In short, I'll take citywide WiFi over a tax break for Wal-Mart any day.
I suppose.. (Score:4, Interesting)
What about the security aspects though?
And who will be in charge of the usage of the acounts, monitoring of traffic, etc. to make sure the l33t kids down on 14th street aren't trying to knock over the DOD or the Pentagon? Not to mention, keeping up all the wireless devices on security updates, and latest antivirus patterns to make sure it doesn't turn into a network of zombies that ensure a cyber terrorist attack?
just my
Wow (Score:3, Funny)
Knowing the history of Philadelphia, this will come out 5 years after Longhorn and/or Duke Nukem and cost $3.5 billion New World Dollars (the currency established in 2045).
Re:Wow (Score:2)
I second that. I can give two examples showing why:
Circa 1870, the city started construction on City Hall. They didnt finish until around 1900. A few blocks away, a banker built one of the city's first "skyscrapers" (a 10-story building that I dont think exists anymore) in under 10 years during that 30 year window. It really woke t
...Free? No. (Score:2, Interesting)
Okay, so that's Grand Haven, Philly... Any others?
One city at a time...
authenitcation system? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:authenitcation system? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:authenitcation system? (Score:2, Insightful)
Anyways, wireless networks in which you have to sign up for such as this one will be. Generally redirect all traffic through an access port. In such you will have to login to the system in order to gain access. Your login will be tied to any activity that you engage in. Of course one can hack the system theoretically, but it would be on the level of difficulty of hacking any other wireless system in which you are not given access too. Therefor I don't see the dangers in this as opposed to any
Ashcroft will love this... (Score:4, Funny)
Uh.. (Score:4, Interesting)
Actually, my department is going to be starting a pilot for the employees, now whether this will feed into the 'big one' or not stands to be seen.
They don't know what they are saying! (Score:4, Interesting)
The city's chief information officer, Dianah Neff, is quoted in the article:
[Emphasis added]
I have never seen a wirless dial up modem before, have you? I also hope they don't plan on using Blue Socket [bluesocket.com], out of personal experiences of a much smaller installation attempt.
On a side note, I don't think I want to sit on the front porch for too long in Philadelphia. That might be a big health risk! Shouldn't they fix those issues first, before they worry about being at the forfront of wirless access?
Jeez, it's just a phrase... (Score:4, Insightful)
When was the last time you saw, let alone used, a rotary dial phone? Outside film and television, the last time I saw or used one must have been close to 15 years ago.
In fact, I bet if you gave anyone under the age of 20 such a phone and told them to dial 911 (999, 112, or whatever) then they wouldn't have a clue how to do it.
Dialling, per se, is obsolete. However the language is still with us, and likely will be for a very long time.
Re:They don't know what they are saying! (Score:2)
sw33t (Score:2)
No mention of security in the article, but I would hope they use some kind of encryption, else the script kiddies will have a field day getting a city's worth of passwords out of Philly.
Unwired City? (Score:3, Interesting)
Of course, the pansy-assed white folks there can't cook, there are still a few places to get a decent meal.
Wardriving Video (Score:2)
Economics (Score:2, Insightful)
There's nothing magical about the state - it cannot provide wifi somehow far more cheaply than it costs commerical providers. Indeed, the state strongly tends to be *far* less efficient than commerical providers because it has access to public funds and so doesn't have to worry about being efficient in the way a commerical com
free broadband access will make USA more liberal (Score:5, Interesting)
But when anyone with a camera, free editing software, and some time and actors can make a movie, then upload it onto p2p, where it could be watched on free or very cheap p2p, that is going to mean that more leftist, liberal, progressive ideas are going to be propagated into American minds.
Right now, the mainstream media/Hollywood is liberal in the social sense (i.e., gay and minority rights, abortion, etc), but they are quite conservative in the economics
But free broadband would disrupt the media/entertainment distribution machine, thus allowing penetration for more liberal, leftist ideas.
I am all for it!
Re:free broadband access will make USA more libera (Score:4, Funny)
Re:free broadband access will make USA more libera (Score:3, Interesting)
On the other hand, this would also give the aspiring Rush Limbaughs of the world the ability to get their message out there.
Fine. Problem is that when it comes to widespread mass media, there IS no TRUE liberal counterpart to Limbaugh. Air America? Please! That is just the Democratic party talking there, and the Democratic party aint leftist, at least not when it comes to economics.
You wrote:
But I don't think that the general public has any problem getting messages from either the left or
$10 Million? (Score:3, Interesting)
The article says that they would use houndreds to thousands of wirless access points. Let's assume that they end up using 10,000 access points:
$10,000,000 / 10,000 access points = 1,000 $ / access point
Does it really cost $1000 for hardware and installation if you do it 10,000 times?
Re:$10 Million? (Score:5, Interesting)
Port Blocking (Score:2, Interesting)
Municipal ISPs (Score:2)
I wish that my city would do this. Most of the ISPs in Toronto are so problematic and greedy*, it would be great if there was a government-owned ISP that provided DSL and WiFi access. Of course, it would have to have very progressive privacy policy. ;)
It would be a lot cheaper (assuming the city wasn't in it to make a profit), and it could run at a loss - that is, if a resession hit and the local cable monopoly started raising prices and cutting service, the government-owned ISP could keep high-tech busine
Center City or all of Philadelphia (Score:2)
Re:Center City or all of Philadelphia (Score:3, Informative)
> considered Philadelphia as well
No there aren't. The City of Philadelphia is very well defined. The "suburbs" (Delaware, Chester, Bucks, and Montgomery counties) obviously wouldn't be subject to this legislation because the City Council and John Street only have jurisdiction over the city itself. Now, whether they chose to apply it just to Center City is a different story, but there are no "suburbs that are considered Philadelphia." Either you live in
Love to be a fly on the wall at comcast right now (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Love to be a fly on the wall at comcast right n (Score:3, Insightful)
I dunno--suppose an entire city were to buy their broadband access through them...those wireless access points have to connect to the Internet somehow, though some sort of provider.
Plus, the expensive and inconvenient hassles of tech support get offloaded on to the city.
wardriving? (Score:2)
What about the ISPs? (Score:2)
Obviously there will still be a market for business, people requiring higher bandwidth, etc., but I would think the majority of people would switch.
Keep government out! (Score:2)
I hate to see this happen -- how many ISPs will initially get badly hurt only for the public to find out that the public wireless network won't handle the bandwidth.
If my ISP gave me the same service as my city clerk's office did, I'd dump it.
In action in Chaska, MN (Score:3, Informative)
Service was poor to nonexistant for the first three months. But as more residents bought in to the idea and turned on their bridges, access speeds and reliability greatly improved. Now its much faster than dial-up and I can even play a few games online.
It will never happen. Ever. No, really. (Score:5, Interesting)
They own some of the Philadelphia sports teams and refuse to sell the home game broadcast rights to satellite providers for any price-- so if you live in Philadelphia and want to see televised Flyers and Sixers home games you must have Comcast cable, period.
RCN tried to start offering cable TV, internet and phone service in Philadelphia a few years ago, and Comcast used their influence to throw up so many roadblocks, that RCN gave up and went away.
They do not, and will not, stand for something endangering their revenues on their home turf.
~Philly
Just wanted to add this link.... (Score:3, Interesting)
U: phelps123
P: 321joe
(Thanks to BugMeNot for the login credentials)
~Philly
Re:It will never happen. Ever. No, really. (Score:3, Informative)
That's entirely not true. Both my mother-in-law and my wife and I have RCN cable, internet, and phone in Philly. Granted, their service is not available anywhere more than a few miles outside of the city, but to say that RCN "gave up and went away" is a complete fallacy. This is a shame because RCN's internet ser
Big Brother is sniffing you? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Big Brother is sniffing you? (Score:3)
Seriously though, you need to ensure your own security on a public network, just like the internet.
Corporate Lobbyists and Lawyers will kill it (Score:3, Interesting)
The upshot is that if Verizon (or the industry generally) feels threatened, they will just buy some state legislators and pass a state law prohibiting it.
My city has this already (Score:3, Informative)
Only $10 million? You get what you pay for! (Score:3, Interesting)
Wite tapping? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Wite tapping? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:if its free..... (Score:2)
Re:if its free..... (Score:2, Redundant)
Re:Well... (Score:5, Insightful)
So you are saying that none of the taxpayer's money should be spent on projects that actually benefit taxpayers? All of it should rightly go to crazy people that live in boxes and welfare leeches?
The chronically homeless and poverty stricken are generally the result of societal influences, and are not something that can be solved simply by throwing the city's budget at it.
I am sure there is a hefty portion of the budget already going towards various programs, but most of them are likely stopgap measures instead of education about birth control and financial planning, two of the largest (legal) hurdles faced by those below the poverty line.
Re:No such thing as "free" (Score:2)
I *do* live in a large city, and if they wanted to blanket it with tax-supported wireless I'd be all for it. The average yearly tax increase would probably be less than a year of residential broadband.
Re: (Score:3)