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Hardware Hacking

How Do I Disable My Gadgets' LEDs? 259

pHatidic writes "My college dorm room is never dark, even with the lights turned off. This is because of LEDs. Between the Airport Express, laser printer, surge protector, and Logitech mouse there is the constant nuissance of light polution. The powerbook has to take the cake though, with a green LED built into the power adapter and a white pulsating LED indicating it's in sleep mode so bright that I can actually detect it even with my eyes closed. Short of actually unplugging all of my devices every day, is there any way to disable all of these LEDs so I can actually get some sleep?"
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How Do I Disable My Gadgets' LEDs?

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  • ...but this will solve all your problems [mimialamode.com]. And it looks cool, too!
  • by photon317 ( 208409 ) on Monday August 30, 2004 @10:31PM (#10114732)
    Cheap, Effective.
    • So is a hammer. Or a pick-axe.
    • by TheWanderingHermit ( 513872 ) on Monday August 30, 2004 @10:51PM (#10114862)
      And if the tape doesn't block it out by itself, you can use it to tape a piece of paper or cardboard over the LED.

      Or, if you prefer (as I do), use the "handy man's secret weapon": duct tape. Duct tape fixes everything.
      • And if one layer of tape don't work...
        use two. or three. The thicker, the better.

        Personally at home, I have an AC in my room with a freakin bright green LED displaying the temperature and functional mode, and also a rechargable mouse with a bright green battery.

        I have a sock hanging over the AC, and an old Best Buy Receipt folded in half, then half again over the mouse (happens to be the receipt for the mouse...)

        Those work wonders. Really. Now the noise of the AC could use some work, but I don't have a w
    • by HotNeedleOfInquiry ( 598897 ) on Monday August 30, 2004 @11:04PM (#10114945)
      Q) How to darken LED's
      A) Black electrical tape
      Mod) +4 insightful
      Need I say more...
    • Tape over your eyes.

      Cheaper, effective.
      • by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Monday August 30, 2004 @11:53PM (#10115210)
        Comment removed based on user account deletion
        • Its also a good way to get drunk for free. If you walk into a hospital emergency room, proclaim to the nurse "I drank some wood alcohol", you're in for a ride.

          While being transported to the nearest detox center by ambulance, you will be constantly fed grain alcohol to avoid the wood alcohol from being absorbed.

          I know if I do it from my place, I get a free ride to toronto (a good solid 2 hours) and all the booze I can drink for those 2 hours. Strangely, I have yet to do it.
    • What about taping your eyelids? Less tape!
    • by Idealius ( 688975 ) *
      Actually, speaking from experience black electrical tape may not be the best solution.

      A. Not aesthetically pleasing.

      B. Black electrical tape is known to come off of smooth objects with little effort if the object is exposed to a reasonable amount of heat. Eighty+ degrees Fahrenheit if I were to guess. Hopefully you don't keep a computer in that hot of an environment, though! (unless you get lucky you college nerd; queue drum line.)

      C. This kinda goes with A. When you take black electrical tape off of some
      • by Andy_R ( 114137 ) on Tuesday August 31, 2004 @05:45AM (#10116306) Homepage Journal
        The problem here is that black electrical tape is designed to be an electrical insulator first and black second.

        Pop down to your local photographic supplies shop and get some black photographer's tape. It's designed to stop photons, not electrons, it's a lot cheaper, it's not as gooey and stretchy, and it's better at coping with heat.

        Oh, and solving the "black tape electrical goo" problem mentioned in the parent post isn't that hard, it dissolves pretty well in lighter fluid.
        • Oh, and solving the "black tape electrical goo" problem mentioned in the parent post isn't that hard, it dissolves pretty well in lighter fluid.


          Yeah, 'cause once you've got the goo from the tape on your expensive electronics you're certainly gonna wanna douse it all in lighter fluid.

          I suggest leaving it plugged in and turned on while you're applying the lighter fluid. Send us pictures. =)

        • Oh, and solving the "black tape electrical goo" problem mentioned in the parent post isn't that hard, it dissolves pretty well in lighter fluid.
          As will many plastics, paints, and coatings. Use WD-40 instead, it's not quite so destructive on the appliances.

          Um, spray WD-40 on a rag and wipe with the rag, don't spray it directly on your toys (I didn't think I'd have to mention that, but then I remembered the original question).
        • Oh, and solving the "black tape electrical goo" problem mentioned in the parent post isn't that hard, it dissolves pretty well in lighter fluid.

          The best product for dissolving glues or other adhesives without damaging plastics is this stuff called Bestine, which I believe is actually hexane. It's sold in art supply shops as a thinner for rubber cement.

          Gotta be careful with it as it's highly flammable, but there's nothing else like it. Wipes away stuff that would otherwise be a major pain in the ass to
      • A) Elctrical tape come in colors. White, Red, Green Etc.

        B)Electrical tape is designed for heat very well. It's probelm is that it does like to stretch.

        c) Lighter fluid, or another other cleaning solution(including fresh tape)

        My router and cable modem lights boher me. they both have tape on them I haven't had any of the probelm you say. (A) is easy since everyything is black anyway (b) I use good electrical tape, not the $.50 roll stuff but the $3.00 a roll stuff (C) Electrical tapes greatest secert i
      • I was introduced to gaffer's tape by a theater geek. This stuff makes ordinary tape look like tissue paper. It's stronger than duct tape, sticks better to coarse surfaces, handles temperature and moisture well, peels off cleanly, and it's normally found in a matte black cloth color. It's also expensive, $10 for a big roll is about normal.

        Trimming electrical tape with scissors is trivial, to fit the exact shape of the LED you're covering. Until I unplugged the bulb, it was the only thing keeping me sane whe
    • by Neon Spiral Injector ( 21234 ) on Tuesday August 31, 2004 @12:31AM (#10115364)
      I used to deliver news papers. There was an older couple on my route that tried the tape over the blinking 12:00 on their VCR. Only I guess they didn't have electrical tape, and used Scotch Invisible Tape instead. So instead of blocking out the light they just sort of diffused it. I could no longer make out the digits, but there was a soft pulsing blue rectangle very noticable from across the room.

      So remember, the tape you use must be opaque.
    • Seriously. You'd think he'd be a little more creative being a nerd. This is about as bad as that "How do I wash my LCD screen?" post.
    • blindfold.
    • Cheaper. More effective.
    • Get some old write-protect tabs for 5.25" floppy discs. Basically they look like little rectangular shiny stickers about 1x2 cm. I have tonnes of them in a box, and most old-times will still have a collection of stickers and labels for which they have no use. Paste a tab onto the sticky side of a small piece of masking tape. Put the masking tape over the LED such that the shiny tab part is covering it.

      Thus the reflective part effectively blocks pretty much all the light, reflecting it back into the surf

    • I think the real question is, how did this fellow get into college if he can't come up with the tape solution himself? :)
  • Cut or hide? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by dtfinch ( 661405 ) * on Monday August 30, 2004 @10:33PM (#10114748) Journal
    Though I can't make any guarantees, I don't think it'll break anything to cut the power to the LED's in the vast majority of cases. But if you'd rather be safe, a very popular and respectable choice, paint or masking tape ought to do the job.
  • ... nuff said.

    Why do people insist on running things 24x7...

    gus
  • by psyconaut ( 228947 ) on Monday August 30, 2004 @10:34PM (#10114756)
    Simple, elegant, no cost involved! :-)

    -psy
  • One way I solved... (Score:5, Informative)

    by atgrim ( 103715 ) <vinrod&speakeasy,net> on Monday August 30, 2004 @10:36PM (#10114766) Homepage
    my light pollution issue was to connect everything to multiple surge protectors. My 21" monitor, system, speakers and sub, camera adapter and charger are connected to a strip on my desk. My wife has all of her gear coneected through a strip on her desk. Then I have the electrical board which contains the DSL modem, D-Link router and NGear switch on it's own strip. At night or if I am going away for a few days, everything goes through a shut down. Boxes go off then all the strips are turned off. Light goes away, and the crickets come out because the noise pollution has gone away as well :-). A definite side benifit that I have noticed over the few months I have been doing this is that my eletrical bill has decreased significantly. Anyway, that what I do and it works for me. Maybe you can experiment a bit and see what might work for you. Cheers.
  • One idea (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Izanagi ( 466436 ) on Monday August 30, 2004 @10:41PM (#10114791) Journal
    Get a night mask.
  • Bluetack (Score:2, Insightful)

    by soccrates ( 634152 ) *
    Since tape is a little harder to cover the small LED's _only_ without making it look ugly, just whop a little bit of bluetack over it.
    Aesthetic Geek.
  • Pop it open, take out the LED.

    Problem solved.

    Or masking tape, that works.
  • I remember an /. poll asking how many LEDs were on right then, or something, and a good percentage (myself included) answered 50+ (or whatever the highest option was, who wants to dig it up?). Two or three Apple products making light is nothing.
  • Black Sharpie marker (Score:5, Informative)

    by n1ywb ( 555767 ) on Monday August 30, 2004 @10:51PM (#10114868) Homepage Journal
    I've used a black Sharpie marker on LEDs before. It dims the LED and it's not very noticeable, a lot less ugly than duct tape or any kind of tape. Plus you can wash most of it off with rubbing alcohol if you ever want it bright again.
    • I discovered the hard way that certain plastics don't take well to being scrubbed with rubbing alcohol. I haven't figured out exactly which ones they are what with the not wanting to ugly-fy every tenth gadget I own. (Not that I own ten. Sigh.)

      That said, don't waste your money on rubbing alcohol. Everclear is cheaper. And it's not denatured, so it won't kill you as quickly should you have to resort to drinking it in a pinch.
  • " Short of actually unplugging all of my devices every day, is there any way to disable all of these LEDs so I can actually get some sleep?"

    Try a night-mask.
  • by gnovos ( 447128 ) <gnovos@nospAm.chipped.net> on Monday August 30, 2004 @10:53PM (#10114880) Homepage Journal
    duck tape
    • You probably meant "duct" tape. Unless of course you were referring to that special tape huntsmen use to secure their birds to the wall for display...
      • Re:two words (Score:3, Informative)

        by morzel ( 62033 )
        No... Parent poster was actually referring to "Duck Tape [ducktapeclub.com]" (ie: Duck Tape brand duct tape).

      • Re:two words (Score:3, Informative)

        by clambake ( 37702 )
        You probably meant "duct" tape. Unless of course you were referring to that special tape huntsmen use to secure their birds to the wall for display...

        Or I meant duck tape [octanecreative.com] which is a perfectly valid, if somewhat COMPLETELY CORRECT, way to reffer to what the heathens call duct tape.
  • Mr. Silly Question Poster, meet Mr. Electrical Tape. and Mr. Duct Tape. and Mr. Sticky Note. and Mr. Ragged Piece of Paper Taped Over the LED. and Mr. Some Random Object Propped Up In Front of the Damn Thing.

    Is this a mental agility test where you name as many ways as you can in 60 seconds? This is not a difficult question. I mean, tape a gerbil down there. Set a crystal turning via a little motor and get some psychedelic room effects going. Set up mirrors to direct the lights to your roomate's side of t
  • with a soldering iron. That's what I did to my PowerMac's white LED. Damn thing was WAY too bright, and I didn't like shutting down since bootup took too long (especially when I needed to shoot off multiple "I woke up late" emails :)

    It's rather like a vasectomy for a Mac, moreso since it's reversible.
  • If you don't want to go cutting into the LED's heat them until they die. Of course you could just wire in extra voltage until the LED's fail. Either way you're likely to damage your electronics in the process, and are better off just using black tape.

  • by EvilJohn ( 17821 ) on Monday August 30, 2004 @11:20PM (#10115047) Homepage
    Find a roll of Gaffer's Tape. Electrical Tape and Duct Tape both use heavy residue adhesive that can be a pain to remove from plastic. Try using some Gaffer's tape instead. It's far easier to clean up after.
  • The most offensive LED equipped product I own is a logitech 5.1 channel speaker system... the center channel speaker has a fricking blue laser beam aimed at my left eye.

    Gah! My EYE!
  • Send them all to me. If my roommate can put up with xscreensaver illuminating the room all night, a few LEDs wouldn't hurt any.
    • xscreensaver is cool, and the new RSS ports are even cooler, until you accidentally leave on the fireworks one with audio one night.... while the computer is plugged into your sound system instead of headphones. Yea... whoops.
  • by limekiller4 ( 451497 ) on Monday August 30, 2004 @11:57PM (#10115228) Homepage
    Worst. Story. On. Slashdot. EVER.

    Here you go, skippy. Get yourself some index cards. Cut off enough to cover twice the length they'll need to cover the LEDs. Fold in half. Now cut off a strip o duct tape and apply half of it to an edge of the paper. Tape just above LEDs.

    Now you have something that you can use to cover the LEDs at night by slipping out the bottom part of paper. During the day you can slip the edge of the index card up to hide it.

    What? Did you really think that someone was going to track down the arcane (if even possible) instructions on quieting your lights for a myriad of unrelated devices? Holy crap.
  • How about turning all of that stuff off at night? Do you really need to use your laser printer while you're sleeping? It'll be quieter in your room, to boot!
  • by rusty0101 ( 565565 ) on Tuesday August 31, 2004 @12:58AM (#10115457) Homepage Journal
    First of all we have the responses that say 'Do what you told us you don't want to do. Turn the stuff off."

    Next up are the 'Cover those lights with some sort of tape that will leave a residue that pretty much can't be washed off.' with variations such as 'use a black sharpy or other marker'

    Of course you have the other variations on this, such as the 'post-it' notes, or other obstructions directly attached to the device.

    Lastly you find the people advocating taking the equipment appart and (in most cases) desoldering the led's, or clipping their leads.

    So, Rusty0101, what kind of solution do you have?

    Regardless of whether the monitor you have is a flat panle LCD, plasma, or CRT, in most cases you don't need it on when you are trying to sleep, and if it isn't integrated into a computer you want left on 24x7, you can probably turn it off.

    For the equipment that you want placed up high, but don't want to see the lights from, get the rough dimmensions, then head to a dollar store, or possibly a household goods store, and pick up some opaque storage boxes to put them in. Plastic and cardboard are often opaque to light, but transparent to microwave frequencies, so your 802.11abg equipment should continue to run just fine. If you are concerned about heat, place a piece of black paper over the equipment and leave the box top off. Remember to lable the box so you know what's in it, and if there is room for other stuff as well.

    That nice bright light on the front of the laptop? While you are at the dollar store, pick up a plate holder. When you are done with the laptop for the day, and fold it up, set it in the plateholder so that the front led is facing down, (behind a book or something.) If you have a power book, or something with leds at the back of it instead, find (or get your craft inclined so to make) a laptop sleeve that you put your laptop in, and which wraps around any plugs that generate light.

    Base computers? If you assemble your own, you know how to disable the leds on the front. This doesn't help for those nice self lit cooling fans, but we'll get to that. Ok for those, get the dimensions of your pc, and make a wooden box with a light baffled slot at the top back of the box, open most of the bottom, and get a 9" fan fitted to that opening, drawing air from below. Filter this properly so you are not picking up all kinds of dirt. Make sure that the holes for cables is also light baffled, and can be accessed easily with the top of the box off. I personally recomend lining the insides of this box with egg separators to baffle the noise as well, but that's your business.

    Mice. Get or make a black box, just large enough to drop the mouse into, and just deep enough to hide the led. Replace your mouse with a trackball. Replace your mouse with a Wacom tablet, and do not leave the mouse thingie on the tablet. (usually this activates a 'sensor' led on the tablet which is otherwise off.)

    Printers: see monitors or base units. My own experience is that the Samsung ML-1750 turns all leds off when in sleep mode, which it automatically goes into about ten minutes after it is done printing. Ink jets have such a short expected lifetime these days, I am not opposed to covering the leds with something you can easily peel away to see what is happening when needed.

    If you are handy with tools, you might be able to make a roll top 'top' for your desk that would hide all of this for you on demand, and if you used light enough materials it would not cause signal degredation for things like wifi equipment.

    As a last option, if you have a closet, or can make a large enough storage cabinet for your dorm, get a 'long' kvm extension and only have the mouse, keyboard and monitor sitting on the desk, everything else tucked away. Just make sure that the closet does not get too hot, and do not throw dirty clothes and stuff on top of your electronics. So it isn't the best gaming option? So what. you are looking for a peaceful way to get some sleep.

    -Rusty
    • ... if this guy does not want to do the obvious: turn the damned stuff off.

      Sometimes you may want to do something stupid, that does not mean other people should aid you in your pursuit of stupidity.
    • Mice. Get or make a black box, just large enough to drop the mouse into, and just deep enough to hide the led. Replace your mouse with a trackball. Replace your mouse with a Wacom tablet, and do not leave the mouse thingie on the tablet. (usually this activates a 'sensor' led on the tablet which is otherwise off.)

      If it's a USB mouse - unplug it. It'll just work when you plug it back in.

  • by JeffHunt ( 129508 ) on Tuesday August 31, 2004 @01:01AM (#10115466) Homepage
    It's DUCT tape, not DUCK tape. Get it f***ing right! It's good for DUCTS, not DUCKS, you sniveling... you... um, you...

    Arg, I can't even finish this. That's how annoyed this makes me!
  • Whenever I use electrical tape, it eventually peels off since it's only a little piece. That and it leaves a pretty gummy residue that takes a bit of goo gone to remove.

    I actually have started using velcro tape pieces. It doesn't show as much since its not reflective and just leaves a little fuzzy divot and when I've peeled it off after a year, it didn't leave any residue (it more just popped off like rubber feet do that are on a device for a long time).

    For that matter, spare rubber feet work pretty wel
  • Hm... (Score:5, Funny)

    by angst_ridden_hipster ( 23104 ) on Tuesday August 31, 2004 @01:19AM (#10115523) Homepage Journal
    I see a lot of suggestions to use tape: electrical, duct, gaffer's, etc.

    I don't know what's the matter with you kids these days.

    When I was in college and being kept awake by the glow of all those vacuum tubes, I'd attack them relentlessly with a big can of black enamel spray paint. Sure, made it harder to identify which tube blew when stuff shut down. But you can generally tell by the temperature, if you hold the tip of your finger to the side of the tube. And a good spray of enamel keeps the light way down. Remember to turn the machine off before spraying, though, because most spray paints use a flammable propellant, and those tubes can get hot under heavy use.

    The tube machine, needless to say, was a huge improvement over the machine I had in my room the previous year. I set up a web server on my Burroughs Mark II. That machine didn't have any lights of any sort, but the fuckin' racket the relays would make! Especially when someone tried to download some ASCII porn, and it used ever one of the memory cells in the 4kb array. If you haven't heard 4096 relays clattering at once, you don't know what noise is!

    (and if you actually believe any of this, you kids are worse off today than even a old curmudgeon like me can imagine)
  • We didn't have time for sleep! Get back into that deathmatch private and let me hear your war cry! AAAARRGGHH!!!
  • by Celt ( 125318 ) on Tuesday August 31, 2004 @01:55AM (#10115695) Journal
    Well it is...
    Cover lights in tape
    or
    open device, disconnect lights

    Why is /. posting a question that a 10 year old could answer, even a 5 year old might suggest the tape as a idea.

  • by Yaztromo ( 655250 ) on Tuesday August 31, 2004 @03:33AM (#10115983) Homepage Journal

    Here are your options, in a nutshell:

    • Remove power to the devices in some manner,
    • Remove/disable all the LEDs,
    • Shield the LEDs,
    • Shield your eyes.

    That's it, unless you can find a way to install some form of ultra-massive gravity in your dorm room that causes all light to bend towards it (and away from your eyes), although on second thought this would probably destroy all your stuff in the process.

    Yaz.

  • by Trikenstein ( 571493 ) on Tuesday August 31, 2004 @03:40AM (#10116004)
    First he'd gather supply's / components!

    And you know he's racing the clock!

    He looks at the LED timer counting down!

    EL EEEE DEEE's!

    Rush to the pile of refuse that is always there!

    Rumage thru it!

    Find prizes of sheet of 100 mil opaic plastic, 2 pieces of conduit and / or rigid plumbing pipe, one of which will slide freely within the other, also one end cap that perfectly fits the larger pipe!

    Rush to work bench that is always there!

    Find hammer, diagonal cutters and a square heavy piece of steel that will function as an anvil!

    Rush to wall where compressed gas that are always there!

    Its either acetylene, oxygen or nitrous, doesn't really matter which!

    Gather all materials in center of room!

    Rip button off shirt!

    Use hammer and square piece of steel to grind button into powder!

    Put endcap on larger diameter pipe!

    Put smaller diamete pipe inside larger diameter pipe!

    Scrape ground up button into pipes!

    Look around and realize there's something missing!

    Rush to pile of refuse again and rummage for a rag!

    Spread sheet of plastic on ground!

    Fill pipe inside of pipe with gas from cylinders!

    Look at EL EEE DEEE timer!

    Time's almost up!

    Reach in pants pocket and take out Swiss Army Knife! (the model with the cross)

    Set Swiss Army Knife on sheet of plastic!

    Look at EL EEE DEEE timer!

    Time's all but gone!

    Reach in other pant's pocket!

    Take out wad of duct tape!

    Look at EL EEE DEEE timer!

    We're into single digits!

    Rip off piece of duct tape!

    Rush to EL EEE DEEE timer!

    Cover EL EEE DEEE's with duct tape!

    Problem Solved!

    /cue MacGyver music

  • by Trikenstein ( 571493 ) on Tuesday August 31, 2004 @04:35AM (#10116112)
    Get a very fat hamster for each device.

    Set a very fat hamster next to each device, positioning the very fat hamsters between you and the devices.

    Very fat hamsters work cheap.

    Very fat hamsters are glad to get the work.

    There are 2 potential problems when working with very fat hamsters.

    1) You have to keep very fat hamsters seperated or they will form a very fat hamster union.

    2) Very fat hamster crap.

    Oh, one other thing.

    You have to position your very fat hamsters close to the light source.

    If you position your very fat hamsters too far from the light source they will cast very fat hamster shadows on your dorm room wall.

    This has the potential of scaring the crap out of your college boy self.

    *This message brought to you by the Very Fat Hamsters of America Foundation*
    *Where our motto is "We don't move"
    "At All"*

  • Bluetak; used for everything from McGyver repairs to posters.
  • If your roommates are anything like my kids (1 and 3 years old), they'll push any buttons and lights and such that they see on your computer, doing things like turning it off, resetting it, opening the CD tray (which they'll then break), etc.

    Electrical tape (duct tape works nicely too) over the buttons can help obfuscate their existence, saving both your data and cup holder^H^H^H^H^H^H^H ^H^H^HCD tray, and yet since YOU know where the buttons are, you can still push them through the tape.

    At least un

  • Make a fort (Score:5, Insightful)

    by blogan ( 84463 ) on Tuesday August 31, 2004 @07:12AM (#10116622)
    In college, I had the bottom bunk, so I just hung blankets from the bunk and had a place to sleep that was darker than you could imagine. My roommate could still have the lights on and it didn't affect me.
    • In college, I had the bottom bunk, so I just hung blankets from the bunk and had a place to sleep that was darker than you could imagine. My roommate could still have the lights on and it didn't affect me.
      This was modded funny, but it's right on. I saw this done by several people I knew in college. Sleeping patterns of two roommates frequently don't line up, so getting sleep when you want it is hard. The blanket thing is so easy (if you have bunk beds) and works great.
  • I put Blue Painter's Tape over the blue searing, eye-blinding, Power LED on my ReplayTV 5040 box. It didn't "block out" the light completely, but it softened it enough that it's no longer annoying.
  • Place a curtain divider between your bed and your computer area. Place it on a rail like a shower curtain so you can open/close it. The ladies will love it to.
  • Low tech solutions like electrical tape are fine, but the original poster is looking for something a bit more sophisticated. Originally appearing in the Journal of Irreproducible Results [jir.com], and reprinted here [beyond-the-illusion.com], the DarkBulb may be just the ticket.
  • ...My father's inability to program the time on his new VCR he purchased in 1991 resulted in a very excellent low tech solution.

    He took a couple of pieces of black electrical tape, cut them into equal sizes, and affixed them to the front of the VCR. It was just enough to complete cover the blinking 12:00...12:00...12:00...12:00.

    It's almost art now...so I don't have the heart to set the time for him.
  • I don't have this problem but I am sympathetic as if I had had in my dorm room as much junk as I now have in my house....

    But what really annoys me is unnecessary beeping from appliances. For example, my microwave has an LED display but beeps every time I press a button. My digital kitchen timer does the same. Etc. I appreciate that the audio-feedback is useful to people with low vision, but I just wish the manufacturers would put a "quiet" switch on the back, so that (for example) microwave and timer b

  • Short of actually unplugging all of my devices every day, is there any way to disable all of these LEDs so I can actually get some sleep?"
    No. Commit suicide immediately.

Do you suffer painful hallucination? -- Don Juan, cited by Carlos Casteneda

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