Innovators vs Copiers: HP vs Dell 392
eaglemoon writes ""The days of engineering-led technology companies are coming to an end," Mr. Dell declared. The NY Times outlines a modern version of a classic innovation theory. Who gets to win in the marketplace - the innovators who invest in R&D like crazy or those that just take cost out of standard products? The current fight between Dell and HP over the printer business is a great natural experiment in verifying this theory." The article does a good job of stating what the real contest is - it's the different theories of corporate structure that's being tested.
When you're a commodity-oriented company... (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure, there's something to be said for running a solid business around commodity products, even if they do cost a lot (compared to say, paper plates). It really is a good business to be in. The printer business, which the article focuses on, fits Dell's ideas pretty well.
But when I look for a new computer to buy, I look to Apple and I look at Dell. There's a big difference there.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:When you're a commodity-oriented company... (Score:5, Insightful)
Building a limited lifetime into a product is hardly innovation. A plastic shell, cheap plastic parts, built-in print heads--they all lead to a consumer purchasing a new one.
The problem you describe, however, was one of the issues faced in the 1930s. Clothes washers and dryers in particular, had been in high demand. Thus, the companies kept ramping up production. Nobody expected the market to get saturated...
I think it's a problem all durable-goods manufacturers face. Especially those whose new product concepts' markets havn't been saturated yet.
Re:When you're a commodity-oriented company... (Score:5, Insightful)
I think you hit the nail on the head.
Dell's real observation is that computers (at least PCs) aren't a high-tech industry anymore.
Howerver, surely Dell's "The days of engineering-led technology companies are coming to an end" guideline is not at all the case for companies that are still in a high tech sector [dfj.com]. One of the carbon-nanotube companies [eetimes.com] may very well replace Intel in post-silicon computing. One of the robotics [packbot.com] companies may replace much of the military. Surely these are "engineering led".
But in their market, I must agree with Dell that I don't see a "engineering-lead" Wintel-box company in the near future.
Re:When you're a commodity-oriented company... (Score:4, Insightful)
I vehemently disagree.
The Silicon Valley venture capital community has the financial (Kleiner, Redpoint, Brentwood, Benchmark, Draper, etc), and intellectual (Stanford, Berkeley, both next door) to hold it's own against any of those far east conglomerates or wealthy corporations. Furthermore, they have as one of their primary goals to take on this kind of high-risk/high-reward R&D.
Consider just one of these VC firms [kpcb.com]. These guys are the force behind AOL, Amazon, Genzyme, Cell Genesis, Electronic Arts, Cryogen, Genentech, Google, Macromedia, Nanogen, Netscape, Pharming, Rambus, Sun, Sybase, Zetacore, etc. They certainly have the resources to accomplish "real innovation and significant research", and they have the track-record as an existance proof.
Even when the big corporations do high-tech research these days, it's often through a venture arm [intelportfolio.com] investing in small organizations or a venture-funded spinoff (Affymetrix from Affymax, etc).
Re:When you're a commodity-oriented company... (Score:5, Interesting)
I have used some other cheap printers, most of them end up in the trash can after 9 months, it is cheaper than trying to fix them. Every HP we have used has lasted a long time and we have had few problems, all we do is switch ink cartridges. I have no doubt Dell will be cheap, but I doubt they will have the same quality as HP. In the end, they will probably end up in the trash bin. Cheap crap doesn't inspire customer loyalty.
That is the bottom line for me, not whether one innovates or not. I really don't care who makes the product as long as it works and works well under demanding circumstances and the print out looks good. That is why HP is the leader IMHO.
Re:When you're a commodity-oriented company... (Score:5, Insightful)
At work we recently bought some printers for $600 each, with an option to buy a $200 service contract.
We saved money by just buying an extra printer. If anything bad happens we'll just toss one and immediately substitute the spare. It is cheaper that way.
Same goes for super-fancy hardware. Which is better, a 99.999999% reliable server for $100,000, or 10 99% reliable servers for $5000 each? If it breaks, just throw it out (granted, servers aren't an ideal comparison since the data on them might be priceless, but it works just fine for most hardware).
If having a plotter goes down will cost you tens of thousands of dollars, then you should have more than one of them.
This is just like the difference between just-in-time and just-in-case. If not having an item will hinder your ability to get one item out to market, then make it just-in-time. If not having one item will shut down every assembly line in your plant and take a month to replace, then keep a few spares just-in-case.
Re:When you're a commodity-oriented company... (Score:5, Insightful)
And when the second problem develops? What about the third? Note that having a replacement handy is not neccessarily a replacement for a warranty, thats just bad math.
Which is better, a 99.999999% reliable server for $100,000, or 10 99% reliable servers for $5000 each?
Thing will depend on your usage. Is this an application you need uptime for? Can you effectively cluster the multiple boxes Will the performance scale effectively? These are very important questions that could easily make that $100k server a bargain and those $5,000 servers a money pit.
If having a plotter goes down will cost you tens of thousands of dollars, then you should have more than one of them.
I think you missed the posters point. Buying a $6,000 plotter that has to be replaced every 1.5 years is more expensive and troublesome than buying a $10,000 plotter that runs reliably for 4 years. Wasting Space (which costs money) on a spare in the closet is not a genius plan. Buying a workgroup class printer which can be shared, costs less per page, and is more reliable/maintainable/etc. is probably a far wiser plan, although certainly there are circumstances when this is not the case.
Contingency planning (Score:3, Insightful)
It comes down to a cost/benefit equation. What can you least afford: to have money invested in backup equipment/parts or to miss the deadline and possibly the business due to equipment failure.
If it's going to cost you tens of thousands of dollars then you would have two plotters running in the first place, and be able to switch queues should one device go offline. Both devices would be on a on-site-warranty contract, and you would place a call as soon as the first device went down. You would have schedule
Re:When you're a commodity-oriented company... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:When you're a commodity-oriented company... (Score:5, Insightful)
Two words: ink cartridges.
Re:When you're a commodity-oriented company... (Score:3, Interesting)
What would grocery stores do if people stopped farming? Michael Dell is arguing for the seperation between innovation and manufacturing not the end of innovation. Sort of like MIP's model for CPUs vs. Intel's. Not that I agree (MIPS and Intel being a case in point) but....
Re:When you're a commodity-oriented company... (Score:4, Insightful)
And what's wrong with this? This is the best position for them to be in. They can sell the occassional replacement printer at or below cost, and then sell ink cartridges for $50 each (which cost $1 to make). By not manufacturing very many printers, which cause them a loss, and selling tons of cartridges, which have a huge profit margin, they'll have a huge profit and their stock will go through the roof.
Of course, if consumers were smart enough to refuse to buy into this business model, maybe we'd have better printers and cheaper ink, but I'm sure a P.T. Barnum quote would explain this phenomenon nicely.
Re:When you're a commodity-oriented company... (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe I should make a statement about what the US would be like if we instituted Sharia (strict Islam) law, like many Americans want. Just because you hear one freak say something doesn't mean it's representative of the group.
Re:When you're a commodity-oriented company... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:When you're a commodity-oriented company... (Score:4, Insightful)
The innovator will have the first shot at the market. This means that they can charge premium if they want.
The copier comes later, and must compete on price. Dell is doing that okay for now, but how are they going to do once big boys like Walmart have their game down?
The innovator at least can hit the market hard, and get a little profit until everybody else jumps in. They can also profit from licensing patents to others, so even if they lose the marketing war later on, they can profit from the copiers' volume. However for the copiers, they must outmarket or underprice every other copier in the market.
Dell's been doing a good job of marketing sofar. We'll see how they deal with Walmart's muscle considering their many distribution points. I think Dell is in big trouble.
They should also be very afraid if the thin client makes inroads in the home user market. Then people will end up buying their next computer at the supermarket, throwing it into their shopping cart alongside the box of cereals and toothpaste. Not that far fetched.. in a year or two, the cost of the hardware to build a thin client good enough for the average (non-game-playing) end user would be less than the cost of an imported wheel of cheese.
Re:When you're a commodity-oriented company... (Score:5, Insightful)
"The days of engineering-led technology companies are coming to an end," Mr. Dell declared.
It doesn't then follow that Dell will prosper. I bought my last computer at Walmart [walmart.com] for $200. That should worry him.
Re:When you're a commodity-oriented company... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:When you're a commodity-oriented company... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:When you're a commodity-oriented company... (Score:3, Funny)
Frankly I can't really imagine needing or wanting "support" on most products. If I really need to fix a perplexing problem... well... that's what the internet is for.
Re:When you're a commodity-oriented company... (Score:5, Interesting)
This reminds me a lot of IBM and their IBM Compatible PC days. It's exactly what Dell is doing is what allowed others like Compaq to grow into the PC market. They took what was compatible to the IBM sys arch and built around it. Eventually IBM started playing the engineering-led game where they wouldn't release specs until they had their IBM PCs on the market then the PC-Compatibles could go after it. Innovators are kind of setting themselves up for competition like this when they're keeping the innovations a secret. Back to Compaq, for a while they innovated the items that were sold with their PCs but just like Dell they pushed it back on the MFGs to do the R&D.
Look where Compaq is now. In the belly of the beast that said Dell isn't doing anything. It's just distributing other people's products.. That's what Ms Fiorina said and that is exactly what Compaq was before HP bought them up.
Mr Dell watch out. Your company might be next.
Innovators Rule (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Innovators Rule (Score:3, Interesting)
Innovators Rule - within a patent system (Score:5, Insightful)
Innovators Rule - Provided they can outlast the drain on their development dollars and recoup the investment. I think Iridium was a good test for that. The people that bought them out for 10 cents on the dollar are making a killing now.
I know this ain't the politically correct thing to say on /., but:
Without those legal protections, the intellectual property of innovators is essentially worthless.Re:Innovators Rule - within a patent system (Score:5, Insightful)
The process of selling something by clicking a mouse button should never, ever have received a patent.
But by all means software should be able to be copyrighted and where you can make it work, it should be able to be a trade secret also.
Re:Innovators Rule - within a patent system (Score:4, Insightful)
missing something here.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:missing something here.... (Score:3, Insightful)
read: There will always be innovators and there will always be Microsoft.
All kidding aside, this is nothing new. Xerox invented. Apple copied Xerox, and Microsoft copied Apple. It's the same with Japanese automobile makers. The innovator usually never reaps the rewards because the true potential of their innovation is only realized by an outside pair of eyes.
Re:missing something here.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Japanese automobile makers led in the development of fuel-efficient, low-polluting engines. Look at how long it took GM, Ford, and Chrysler to sell cars with engines that had 3 or the now standard 4 valves per cylinder.
Japanese automobile makers took American quality control approaches, and actually applied them. And made better cars.
My next car (my current ride has an American brand, was built in Kansas City, but was based on a european design; I've had it for 7 years, and it was 9 months old when I bought it. 150,000 not-so-trouble-free miles.) will be built in Kentucky or Ohio.
Re:missing something here.... (Score:3, Informative)
After WW2, Dr. Deming [deming.org] was sent to Japan to help in reconstruction. In America, Deming's ideas were universally ignored. The Japanese were led to believe he was the US's leading quality engineer.
And the rest, as they say, is history.
Re:missing something here.... (Score:3, Funny)
Your current ride is a 1997 Ford Contour SE, with a 2.5 liter V6 engine and an automatic transmission. You've had the head gaskets replaced, and the blower motor resistor pack replaced (twice). You've also had warped brake rotors and replaced the O2 sensor
Re:Incorrect assumptions... (Score:4, Informative)
For a good history of Apple, I'd suggest "Infinite Loop" by Malone, IIRC.
Re:missing something here.... (Score:5, Insightful)
I disagree with the first part, but agree with the reason. Take PK-ZIP, Ethernet, RS-232, and Eclipse for example. Their creators released the specifications to the world. Suddenly, their product is compatible with a lot more machines out there, so people will buy products centered around it.
In fact, that's one of those business models that was mentioned in the OSS compatibility handbook [
The point is, innovation can survive in a copycat-filled world. You ju
Remember how the biz/tech press makes its money (Score:5, Insightful)
May 27, 2004: "Michael Dell announces that sleeping with underage gerbils is the only path to transformative strategic insights."
May 28, 2004: "Carly Fiorina declares death of gerbil-inspired strategy and outlines new meerkat-based inspiration management system."
Who needs the Enquirer?
Innovators? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Innovators? (Score:4, Interesting)
For instance, the HP Laserjet 3330mfp. It's a multifunction device just like everyone else's. Only... you can throw an IP print server on it, and make ALL of its functions available to everyone on your network. Oh, and ALL of its functions work simultaneously. So one of your users can be faxing through the unit while another is scanning from the glass and a third is printing.
In a world full of USB-only multifunction devices where you're lucky if you can share the printer function peer-to-peer due to proprietary "status monitor/sender" panels and such (Canon L6000 for instance CANNOT be redirected), this product is astonishingly innovative.
I should state that I am an HP-authorized warranty repair tech. I don't work for HP, but I do service their gear.
Then who will innovate? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Then who will innovate? (Score:4, Interesting)
There are at least 2 companies that will innovate. IBM and Apple are all about it. And in many ways for years they have come up with many of the computing advancements that a few years later show up for the rest of the market.
Re:Then who will innovate? (Score:3, Informative)
Dell makes printers? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Dell makes printers? (Score:2, Informative)
New logos (Score:5, Funny)
Blah blah lamesness filter blah blah blah.
VC input (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:VC input (Score:3, Insightful)
Unless the economy happens to be in an investment frenzy, which is cyclical. Just ask the dot-com losers...
"...once I built a dot-com, made it run, brother can you spare a dime?"
And whose technology will they copy? (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually... (Score:2, Funny)
HP? An innovator? (Score:4, Insightful)
HP was always known for not jumping on latest technologies and only entering market once it is well established, improving on existing technologies. I mean these are the people who passed on original Apple designs and were still proud of it when Apple became successful. They were by far not the first ones to enter laser printer market. It was part of their philosophy.
Now they are the innovators. Curious times. But then again, if Microsoft can claim to be innovators, HP is way ahead of them there.
-Em
Re:HP? An innovator? (Score:3, Insightful)
for creating new microchip designs, amazingly reliable and fancy sensors, and more. They lead in fields where others refused to go (medical, industrial, and nuclear control systems).
Now HP's marketting team sucked ass, but that's a bit different.
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:HP? An innovator? (Score:4, Funny)
Mature products (Score:5, Insightful)
The innovation was in creating products that filled a formerly unidentified need. Those lovely early HP calculators are an example. The first reliable laser printers are an example. The personal computer is an example.
When each of these was being developed, the technology industry - heck the whole personal computer industry - was in its infancy, and just about anything with a semi-conductor as "innovative".
Those are now mature products, which is where companies like Dell appear. Their role is not to address needs that other companies haven't seen, but to build a business that exploits mature technology with identified market.
Innovation will come from left field, and will involved products or processes that few of us will see coming.
Re:Mature products (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Mature products (Score:3, Informative)
There were reliable laser printers before the Apple LaserWriter, but the LW was designed from the ground up to support networking and Postscript-based text and graphics. The digital components were 100% Apple-designed with help from Adobe.
The LW is important because it enabled, in 1985, offices of Macs to cheaply network their m
Thank God I've still got my LaserJet III (Score:5, Insightful)
I hate to see HP forced into competition with a company like Dell. Dell is the Walmart of computer hardware, it's cheap, it probably works okay for a while, but but eventually it's gonna crap the bed and you'll have to buy a new one. HP stuff USED to last forever, but now they're starting to sell wally-peripherals as well. It all goes back to our disposeable culture. But some of us (like me) would much rather pay a little more for something that will last a lot longer, or even pay a little less for something that's already old but that will STILL last a lot longer (like my LJ III).
On Dell's reliability. (Score:3, Informative)
Some of the machines are over three years old.
I'm impressed. I may not like Dell as a company, but as far as making a reliable product goes, they've done pr
Re:Thank God I've still got my LaserJet III (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Thank God I've still got my LaserJet III (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm still happily using a IID so I can save paper by printing on both sides.
Re:Thank God I've still got my LaserJet III (Score:3, Insightful)
Dell is the Walmart of computer hardware, it's cheap, it probably works okay for a while, but but eventually it's gonna crap the bed and you'll have to buy a new one.
It is the Walmart, but it wasn't always. Dell used to make a fine machine back in the day, say prior to 2001 or so. They had some particularly nice workstations that we used for CAD engineering.
What meaningless blather. I've owned several Dell computers, and they've all lasted beyond my needs (e.g., still have a 1995 200MHz P2 running at
Software Patents (Score:2)
Clearly the only incentive for HP to be "innovators" is to be able to market the product without competition for a period of time. How are we opposed to patents, but yet I'm sure most of us will go with HP on this issue, not Dell.
Does the issue have to do with the scope of software patents? And what will likely be the inability of patent offices to find "prior art"?
I'll tell you where... (Score:2, Insightful)
Same place as they are today.
Patent the printer, copyright the printer driver.
But patent the printer driver? Only someone not versed in the art of software development would say something so ridiculous. And I think I'm putting that very kindly.
HP invents? (Score:3, Interesting)
HP's test equipment is nice, and HP printers are great. I actually liked Compaq's x86 servers, and hated Compaq's non-business desktops. Never liked HP desktops, never seen much in the way of HP servers outside of the HP-UX systems. Hockey-PUX is wacked, I'd prefer Solaris or IRIX.
Toss the Dell servers in the trash where they belong, give me a used Compaq server over a new Dell rackmount turd any day. I guess Dell desktops are okay, but you really get what you pay for.
I'm not quite sure why Dell is so popular. Poor Gateway, why are they failing when Dell manages to ship such low grade product and run such poor customer service. And where did Austin, Northgate and Swan go.
Re:HP invents? (Score:3, Insightful)
Who will win? (Score:5, Funny)
IMHO, the key to it all...... (Score:4, Insightful)
Failing this there is a natrual advantage to innovators in legal regimes that allow local embryonic development without legal hassle (inventors get to eat)!
Three Phases of Competition (Score:5, Interesting)
A company needs to pick which phase it will focus on in and stick to that. If HP wants to be an innovation company, they need to know when to bail out of a market with no innovation left (like printers).
Re:Three Phases of Competition (Score:4, Informative)
Deskjet 5850 - Built in Wired/Wireless printing [hp.com] Who else offers this?
PSC Photosmart 2510 - Wired and Wireless Printing Scanning Faxing Memory Card uploading [hp.com] Same here? And don't say there's "no demand" for it. Don't.
Photosmart 7960 - 8 Ink printing system [hp.com] AND features the Number 59 GRAY ink cartridge [hp.com] for AMAZING printouts with 3 levels of gray. Amazing.
Well? All I see is innovation.
Re:Three Phases of Competition (Score:3, Interesting)
At best the inclusion of wireless in a printer is "differentiation". HP didn't invent wireless networks. The wire or lack thereof is not the main purpose of a printer, so at most, it's a reason to pick one printer over another one that both do the main thing I want (print) well.
The Innovators should always win (Score:5, Insightful)
Without companies like HP that can afford to dump large sums of money into innovation, the industry would be pretty stagnant.
That's exactly why patents exist...to promote innovation....and to protect the innovators from someone who could just take the technology the innovators worked so hard to develop, then mass-produce it for less (and without the R&D cost), effectivly putting the innovators out of business.
"Commodoties" got "invented" first (Score:4, Insightful)
Dell and MS are leeches, and as such they work. Now, without any hosts, leeches die.
"/Dread"
(*) I use the term loosely.
Not exactly fair to MS and Dell (Score:3, Interesting)
That's a funny way to look at the free market and public domain. Companies that want to innovate do so, or try to do so, and their R&D costs are reflected in the cost of their products.
This is where intellectual-property protections come in. In the absence of any such, some copycat would soon (this "soon" will be important later) undercut the innovator and destroy him in the market. But in markets where there is
If true, new use for patents... (Score:5, Interesting)
It's the mentality of the Dell's that are hurting us. Innovation is required. Yet, to compete with the Dell's, innovation (and R&D) often suffer because R&D costs money. The companies that truly innovate, that really study and work hard with R&D, will have a harder time in our current greed-driven, shareholder value is the only goal mentality market place. Why? Because the R&D takes money from profits, making margins smaller. Therefore, the copycats (Dell) have better margins because the ride the coat tails of the innovator, without having the spend the money to innovate.
Cyclical Business Models (Score:3, Interesting)
Dell is one of the last great US manufacturers -- everyone else has contracted everything out and become a drop-shipper.
If you look at the great manufacturing businesses of the past, you'll see that once demand starts to get quenched, the business dies. Dell has a need to push out huge amounts of product to make up for the deflationary PC industry... which is a strategy that will eventually catch up.
Dell printers...??! (Score:5, Informative)
I have a laser printer--but Canon seems to be the best deal in inkjets right now. Black carts for most of their printers are only like $7.
One little thing ... (Score:3, Interesting)
However, one thing I noticed many years ago, when Dell first became known, was that they built their PC cases with simple one-screw-and-open panels pretty much by default. This was a stark constrast to the cases you'd get from any other PC maker. What a joy to be able to easily access the innards of the PC. I think a lot of companies make cases this way now. I'm not sure that Dell started it, but they were the first I'd seen do it and Compaq and HP definitely were *not* at that time ...
Re:One little thing ... (Score:4, Interesting)
IBM had handles on some of their systems, and they were ridiculed because that must have meant that they needed to be carried in to service...
Dell wasn't the first, but it sure was a kick in the butt to the other manufacturers.
Re:One little thing ... (Score:3, Interesting)
So IBM hired temp workers to come in and assemble the printers manually. What they discovered was that parts that had been designed for automated assembly made it even easier for humans to put them together. It even made it easier for the printers to be repaired in the field. Their
Short-sighted (Score:5, Insightful)
Thinking like this stagnates the industry. Copying existing technology is easy money, but don't forget that some aspects of PC design are nearly 25 years old. The market is ripe for something new...and the company that comes up with something other than a variation on a theme will make lots of money in the long run.
This is the same kind of thinking that has CIOs everywhere shipping jobs off to outsourcers; they figure one sysadmin is much like the other. Technically they are, but if you train your staff well, they learn much more about your core business than any outsourcer would.
Especially in tough times, it's tempting to cut R&D budgets. However, comapnies that abandon basic research do so at their own peril!
apples and oranges... (Score:5, Interesting)
Dell has sold printers for a long time. As far as I can tell, they target buyers who like to buy everything through one web site. The peripherals they sell are nothing special, and the prices aren't that good, but it's easy and convenient to buy everything with one click.
People who want the best are usually willing to shop around for it. Hopefully HP won't be run out of business if Dell is successful in undermining their market, and the next time I want a good, dependable printer I won't have to buy a re-branded Lexmark or some other similar junk.
Re:apples and oranges... (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't think that will be a problem. Dell is another middleman. I have an HP722 and Laserjet III. My wife bought a new DEL computer and the companion all in one printer. The cartridges for both are about the same price. I can get the HP carts with no postage and no wait just down the street. S&H makes the dell carts cost more. The DEL carts are about 1/4 the size of the HP carts. The DEL carts don't mention anywhere (website included) what the estimated yield or amount of ink is. It's obvious to anyone replacing a printer that the DEL with the itty bitty carts is no bargan. My HP 722 printer and Laserjet is on the local network using a Hawking printservers (great investment!). The DEL printer is now just a scanner for the wife's computer. We have no plans on replacing the cartridges when they expire. (added bonus, the HP black cart is easly refilled). The DEL all in one could not be used as a replacement for the HP inkjet on my network because it has drivers for WIN 2K and WIN XP only. That means it is incompatible with both our laptops, and 2 other PC's on the network. None of them run the required OS. DELL printers are not a high volume (or moderate volume) cost effective printing solution. DELL printers may be OK for the lady of the house to print the occasional E-mail, and scan a baby photo, but little else. More cost effective printing can be found almost anywhere else. DELL is not competitive in printing value.
Unless HP goes for smaller carts at higher prices, they have no worries from DELL.
This is why Dell (Score:4, Informative)
Only IBM and HP qualify as such to me in the PC based server world...
We recently had to scramble to do a firmware fix for a customer who had bought Dell servers rather than the HP ones we recommended...
The fault? A bug in Dell's RAID card firmware that would cause the card to eventually destroy the data beyond repair... A bug of the type that would NEVER get out the door in a HP or IBM product... Then there was the server that had the power supply defect that smoked and died... Dell does not do anywhere NEAR the quality control HP or IBM does.
Dell appeals to those who buy strictly on price.
You get what you pay for.... HP ProLiant is by far my favorite server line, and it's not really that much more expensive than Dell.
Re:This is why Dell (Score:4, Interesting)
The fault? A bug in Dell's RAID card firmware that would cause the card to eventually destroy the data beyond repair... A bug of the type that would NEVER get out the door in a HP or IBM product...
Don't be so sure. A few years ago my research group got a couple of brand new, top of the line RS6000 workstations. Set them up, ported the various apps and started running.
Oops, they fell off the network. Hmm. Only way to get it back was to reboot. They promptly fell off the network again. Anytime you tried to move a big file between machines they'd die.
IBM had removed a hardware check for malformed packets in the latest and greatest ethernet cards. Hey- they had software correction in the firmware, that would work fine. Except that nobody had actually bothered to test it, and it didn't work in some cases.
I agree IBM is better than some of the competition, but I don't trust anyone.
If HP is such an inovator of technology (Score:2, Flamebait)
Classic balance of power (Score:3, Interesting)
Michael Dell says that his company is not a technology company, it's a logistics service provider. He's right, of course. Logistics become a key issue when products become commodities. Ironically, the frantic race to hardware performance only stresses the critical importance of the logistics.
HP isn't really in the printer business (Score:3, Insightful)
If I were HP, I would be very concerned about my cost structure right now. Dell is a reseller of commodity products. Yes they do some R&D but realistically they mostly just manufacture and resell products developed elsewhere. In a battle of selling commodity products, Dell's cost structure is just better. Dell actually gets paid days before they have to pay for products and they have only a few days of inventory on hand at any time. HP does pretty well with commodity products but they are much more similar to IBM than to Dell with multiple divisions, heavy R&D, high end servers and support organizations. This isn't a bad thing necessarily but it does mean that they may eventually have to exit the low end printer business if it becomes any more commoditized much like IBM has had to move upmarket in PC and focus on business customers.
Fortunately for HP, they do have a great brand, strong R&D and a pretty substantial computer business of their own. HP is hardly defenseless. But if this becomes a pure cost battle, HP probably will lose. I think the most interesting part of this battle will be to see how much brand matters here.
Re:Retail/VAR vs Online (Score:3, Interesting)
Regarding PC line R&D, laptops are still hard. They are the last bastion of high-QA client side systems. Get something wrong with the HDD mount and your AFR (annualized failure rate) goes from 20% to 60%, and there go your profits and customer happiness. Servers are the other area. But even there, Intel likes to help. Indeed, o
Dell are innovators too, (Score:3, Informative)
because the word "innovate" means to introduce changes and new ideas [emphasis mine] [cambridge.org]. Both HP and Dell are innovators.
What HP supposably does, or used to do, and Dell doesn't do, is invent, which means to design and/or create something which has never been made before [cambridge.org].
Innovators will cease to exist if invention or discovery never happens, as there will not be any new idears or changes to introduce.
Mr Dell has made a common mistake, most people aren't aware of the difference between innovate and invent.
HP stopped innovating in printers... (Score:3, Insightful)
So, this contest doesn't mean what you think it means.
sPh
Re:HP stopped innovating in printers... (Score:3, Insightful)
Take that innovation.
Inkjet printers are dead (Score:4, Interesting)
So I threw out my last POS inkjet printer years ago, and got a real laserprinter (HP LaserJet 4000TN) instead. The pinnacle of b&w printing. Fast. Stunning quality. Toner cartridges so large that one will last me around 10 years at my current rate of consumption.
And colour? If I want that, I put it on a floppy and get it printed at the photoshop down the street. 60c canadian (about 40c US) for a 4x6 printed on real kodak photo paper, by a real dye sublimation printer that costs as much as a fancy car.
Innovation? (Score:4, Insightful)
Dell *DOES* innovate! (Score:3, Insightful)
Dell pioneered just-in-time manufacturing -- they didn't ask for parts for your computer until they had your order in had. No inventory to store means no warehouse to pay for!
Wal-Mart innovates, too. There's a reason their IT department is one of the biggest in the world. They want to know what each store has on each shelf. Again, they're trying to minimize total cost.
The Slashdot crowd cares more for performance, but remember that there are many more customers who care about COST innovation.
Re:Dell *DOES* innovate! (Score:4, Interesting)
I think Dell is just as concerned about performance as cost, it's just that Dell is a management company and HP is (was?) an R&D/engineering company.
Most interesting thing of all to me is that the two compete in the same market while coming from such totally different business plans.
Let's not get cocky, Mr. Dell (Score:5, Interesting)
Disclaimer: I've got an MBA ('m also a programemr).
Dell's quote is this: "The days of engineering-led technology companies are coming to an end."
It looks like the basic opinion on this here at /. has broken down into two camps:
Fact is, both of those are right. It is shortsighted; but within the short-run time frame -- and the business sphere HP and Dell are operating in right now -- he's exactly right. Hell, HP knows it, too -- that's why they're in trouble and know it.
As the article points out, there are two types of companies: innovators and copycats. In the short run, the copycats will always eat the innovator's lunch. Naturally. They've got lower start-up costs, lower R & D costs, lower overhead all around. Thus, they undercut the innovator's price and outsell them.
This trend is accelerated when quality becomes fairly consistent accross the board. That is, when the copycats are still ramping up, their quality is poor. Thus, in the old days you would hear, "Spend the money for the HP -- brand X is cheap but sucks." You don't usually hear that, anymore, regarding printers. Sucks for HP.
But here's the kicker: when the Next Big Thing comes around, who will it come from? Dell or HP? Yep, HP. Innovators will survive not by getting pulled in to a lowest-price mud-fight -- no, they'll survive by innovating their way out of trouble. In fifteen years, do you think HP or Dell still be here? My money's on HP. Dell's a great commodity company: pretty good boxes, cheap. So was Tandy, and where are they?
It's the same thing with IBM. IBM has been a leader in nearly every single office productivity market they've competed in for, what, like 50 years? Typewriters, word processors, servers, PC's, etc. Big Blue has out-lived nearly every competitor who was at one time undercutting their market. Why? Because they innovated into the next Era -- and the copycats got caught in a mass extinction.
It's evolution on a corporate scale, baby. Those that adapt to the changing market, survive. Those that don't, don't. HP and IBM change the marketplace. Dell just hangs on and hopes they don't change it too much.
So Mr. Dell's right, for now, and doomed, eventually.
Slashdoters need better position on Patents (Score:4, Insightful)
A position of equity which suggests that all people are entitled to equal degrees of intellectual freedoms and rights without regard to the ability to pay for legal protections should be the foundation of thought in IP.
Allowing money to dictate the outcome of IP conflicts is dangerous to the last bastion of American productivity - ideas.
AIK
The Big Problem is ... (Score:5, Insightful)
HP seems to be following the path of Polaroid and Xerox, once great innovators who have been mismanaged to oblivion.
Dell is worse with Lexmark (Ugh!) printers, but that does not exonerate HP from destroying a once great brand.
Limits of Innovation (Score:3, Insightful)
You may be on to something here...
What is really ironic (Score:3, Interesting)
What we are seeing is an industry that is rapidly becoming as bad as the US auto industry in the 60's and 70's: crank out the crap then walk away from the customer as fast as possible.
My prediction is that there is a great opportunity here for true innovators who care about great products to step in and blow them out of the water.
The next great business model will not be created by monkeying Dell or HP. Look at how the US auto industry was gutted in the 70's and 80's.
Dell: the Wal-Mart of computers (Score:3, Insightful)
Dell now sells a ridiculously large amount of computer equipment: $11 Billion last quarter, $44 Billion on an annualized basis. They sold as much stuff as Microsoft last quarter, and they made 50% less. They've cut the monopoly premium to 50%, with margins of about 23%.
Plus, there's no reason to think they're going to stop anytime soon. They are the low-cost provider, period.
New technology? Probably not. But they sure are a cheap place to get boxes.
"Dude! You're getting a Lexmark!" (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Tough times (Score:3, Interesting)
Dell printer starts to run low on ink/toner. Poof! Windows comes up, ink/toner low, with a direct link to Dell's website to buy another pack. It could even be built into the driver interface so you give your credit card info, and it automatically orders when it goes low.
I don't have a Dell anything, so forgive me if they already do this.