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Hardware

Ultimate Cooling System 208

Posted by CmdrTaco from the break-out-the-thermal-underwear dept.
OCGeek writes "This should be interesting for the overclockers as VR-Zone has an article up on building a cascade cooling system that cools chips down to -110C. The guide shows you the components that are required for the cascade cooling system such as the compressors, condensers, refrigerants, evaporators, heat exchangers, oil separators etc. and the tools you would need. It allows hot chip like Prescott to reach over 5.1Ghz and ATi Radeon 9800 XT card to reach over 660Mhz core."
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Ultimate Cooling System More

Ultimate Cooling System

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  • They should of started (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 21, 2004 @10:40AM (#8627326)
    ..by overclocking the server

  • Standard response to the "why bother" crowd. (Score:5, Funny)

    by baryon351 ( 626717 ) on Sunday March 21, 2004 @10:41AM (#8627328)
    1. Because it's possible
    2. It's kinda cool (literally0
    3. It keeps overclockers off the streets
    4. It gives us something to do
    5. It's just interesting
    6. Performance!

    • Re:Standard response to the "why bother" crowd. (Score:5, Interesting)

      by danamania ( 540950 ) on Sunday March 21, 2004 @11:26AM (#8627586)
      This has me thinking. Sometimes I do that =)

      But seriously. Anyone seen sites with info on overclocking ancient CPUs? I remember once seeing a 486 overclocked well over 100MHz, perhaps into the 200MHz range, through refrigerated cooling. To me, that's as interesting as getting 5GHz from a brand new CPU.

      Any 50MHz 68000s? A 300MHz Pentium I? 250MHz from a PPC601?

      A 50MHz Commodore 64, even? :)
      • They say that Intel is still manufacturing 386 processors for those who want them, but using a much smaller scale (perhaps 0.2 micron or whatever) because that's the only fabs they have nowadays. These small-scale 386es sound like they'd be easily overclockable. Similarly, someone posted on Slashdot recently about Overclocking the Genesis / Mega Drive [slashdot.org] because later models have a better m68k CPU than needed.

        • They say that Intel is still manufacturing 386 processors for those who want them, but using a much smaller scale (perhaps 0.2 micron or whatever) because that's the only fabs they have nowadays.

          What they say is true :-)

          Intel calls them mature processors, and they are now sold to the embedded market. You can still buy a 486 [intel.com], a 386 [intel.com], or even a 186 [intel.com].

    • Why bother?!?!

      d00d, you can get 5 extra FPS in quake!

      you'll pwn everyone!

    • Re:Standard response to the "why bother" crowd. (Score:5, Funny)

      by eclectro ( 227083 ) on Sunday March 21, 2004 @01:24PM (#8628330)
      1. Because it's possible
      2. It's kinda cool (literally0
      3. It keeps overclockers off the streets
      4. It gives us something to do
      5. It's just interesting
      6. Performance!

      7. Because liquid nitrogen is "so yesterday".

      8. The angst of our inability to get a date is so great that we do not limit ourselves to one form of technology anymore.

      9. We won't be happy until we force our CPUs into Bose-Einsten condensate [physicsweb.org] so we can laugh in the face of the uncertainty principle and thereby squeeze another 3fps out of quake.

      10. We want to have intelligent discussions with our computers like on the Starship Enterprise (see #8 above).

      11. When our friends and family ask us to fix their computers, we'll be able to take care of their fridge and air conditioning too.

      12. Human Cryogenics should not be limited to rich people and baseball players.

      13. So we can have our own sperm bank, not so much for future generations but so future scientists can map our DNA to understand us.

      14. Blue screen of death??? HAAAA!!! Blue screen of COLD!!!
    • 7. Because I'm too cheap and too short-sighted to buy a PowerMac G5.

  • Blasphemy! (Score:1, Insightful)

    by _Sharp'r_ ( 649297 )

    Wouldn't it be cheaper and easier to just buy a multi-processor box, rather than invest in all this gear to make one cpu run even twice as fast?

    I mean, there's only so far Hyperthreading will take you...

    • Re:Blasphemy! (Score:4, Insightful)

      by LordoftheFrings ( 570171 ) <(null) (at) (fragfest.ca)> on Sunday March 21, 2004 @10:46AM (#8627350) Homepage
      For the ATI radeon overclock, no. For raw CPU power, probably, but a video card (generally speaking) needs to be fast on its own. I don't think you CAN piggyback a whole bunch of video cards to gain such speed improvements. Hell, I bet with a 660mhz core, that card could run Doom3 at 3 fps! That's INSANE.

      • Re:Blasphemy! (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Naffer ( 720686 )
        Troll? Honestly guys....
        a video card (generally speaking) needs to be fast on its own. I don't think you CAN piggyback a whole bunch of video cards to gain such speed improvements
        This statement is absolutly correct. For gaming, the video card is of incredible importance. In most modern games it is the limiting factor, not the CPU. You'd see much more of a performance increase overclocking your video card by 30% then your CPU by 30%.

      • Re:Blasphemy! (Score:2, Interesting)

        by tylernt ( 581794 )
        Early in the 3D hardware days, you could use two cards to double performance. One card did the even scan lines and the other card did the odd scan lines. Not sure if this was possible with all games but it certainly was with Descent and/or Descent II.

        With all the hubub about video performance these days, I wonder why it's not still done today. Probably had scalibility factors...?

        • Re:Blasphemy! (Score:3, Insightful)

          by jrockway ( 229604 ) *
          Well, first of all there's only one AGP slot :) Next, I think it would be inefficient for two cards to sync their memory, hence defeating the purpose of drawing even and odd scanlines. By the time both cards had the same internal state, a single card could have drawn four more frames (or something).
        • Wasn't this done as recently as the Voodoo 5?

          If you consider that recent.

    • I mean, there's only so far Hyperthreading will take you...

      And, by extension, there's only so far that multiple processors can take you.

    • Re:Blasphemy! (Score:2, Insightful)

      by TyrelHaveman ( 159881 )
      If you have two 3.2 GHz processors, you can't run at 6.2 GHz... you can just run two things at the same time at 3.2 GHz. This means dual processors only benefit a single program (such as a game) if it multithreaded. In that case you could probably have some noticable improvements, but not the same as running a single 6.2 GHz processor for sure.
    • You missed the point. It's a hobby.
    • even just getting tanks of liquid nitrogen would be cheaper ($0.60 per liter [osustores.com]), easier (just insulate the box and set it up to drip over the cpu) and would make your cpu much colder (down to about 77K...as opposed to 163K)

      • Re:Blasphemy! (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Darth Fredd ( 663620 )
        Yes, but don't forget about condensation. You need some sort of super-dehumidifier, or a solution such as that used by Tom's Hardware several months ago (when they booted a P4 to 5ghz). Too lazy to link/whore karma.
        • well, you wouldn't need a super-dehumidifier. if it's insulated/sealed (except for a small hole to release pressure) condensation shouldn't be a problem. the nitrogen itself is dry, and what little moisture remained could be taken care of with some dessicant

  • ??? Profit? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by fuzzy12345 ( 745891 ) on Sunday March 21, 2004 @10:45AM (#8627345)
    There's software guys, hardware guys, and now, HVAC guys??

    This seems a little complex and extreme for the home builder. Maybe a specialty co-lo opportunity, though? "Icebox netbox"? No good for gamers, of course. But for others who need MIPS for problems that can't be parallelized...

    • Re:??? Profit? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by ipjohnson ( 580042 )
      Would you really want to be processing large amounts of data through a machine that is overclocked? How can you say the data is reliable when you're pushing your gear way out of spec.

      • Re:??? Profit? (Score:3, Insightful)

        by jrockway ( 229604 ) *
        How can you say it's reliable when it's IN spec? Original pentium, anyone?
        • That's silly -- the Pentium bug was a fluke.

          Overclocking your machine is pushing it beyond what is considered a 'safe' level of operation for a few extra megahertz.. you greatly increase the risk of it breaking.

    • Well, for really fast real-time monitoring and control applications, if you need to reduce your latencies to an absolute minimum this might be a way to go. Sometimes you just want a single fast CPU. At that point, however, you're probably better off performing the task with dedicated hardware, ECL or something.
  • I've always wondered this but nobody's ever given a satisfactory answer to "why not".

    Why not overclock network cards as well as CPU and graphics cards?

    think about it

    If I can get 10mg from a normal network card and overclock it for say 15 even if I need shorter cables, that's only shorter than maximum isn't it? So instead of 30ft cables I might be limited to 20ft. Big deal in a home network, NOT. I could overclock some more of my machines and have them all going at 15mg, and get better network speeds. I'm
    • With a network card you can just add another and bridge them or buy one with 4 maybe 5 nics on one PCI card. I used to do this at home when I had an old pcmcia wired nic and one built in to get 200 megs from the raid server, but that beast died a terrible death and I use wireless now. What do you do that needs 200 megs+ ?
    • Why not overclock network cards as well as CPU and graphics cards?

      Two reasons: First, you'd have to overclock every network card by exactly the same amount, or they'd not be able to communicate. Second, the limiting factor is the ability to get a signal through the cables; unless you're going to have LN2 jackets around all your cables, there's not much you can do about this.

    • Re:Why not overclock other things? (Score:1, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Because 'overclocking' a 10megabit (not mg. that's nicotine) network card to a massive 15megabits is pointless when you can buy a new 10/100 card for $15.

      Unless you really do have some way of getting 15mg of nicotine out of your network card, in which case I wish you the very best at your new addiction

    • Re:Why not overclock other things? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Sunday March 21, 2004 @10:58AM (#8627406) Homepage Journal
      Or you could just upgrade to a 100Mbps network. Or, 1000Mbps. Much easier than trying to overclock.

      The bottleneck is usually not the network card, it's the internet connection, or the rate at which you're going to utilize data (say when streaming.)

      The only time overclocking helps is when you've identified a processing-time-related bottleneck.

      Incidentally usually a 10baseT network maxes out at about 8Mbps with no collisions. Many of the older 10baseT devices were only capable of pushing a megabit or so. So, just getting a more efficient network card and somehow prioritizing up network traffic will already provide you more bandwidth.

    • Re:Why not overclock other things? (Score:5, Funny)

      by DrunkenTerror ( 561616 ) * on Sunday March 21, 2004 @11:04AM (#8627437) Homepage Journal
      Woohoo, that's hilarious. Awesome post my friend.

      "...and I got my harddrives up to 21.2K rpms. You should hear her boot up, man... It's like something out of a freakin' movie... and I uped the voltage on the monitor, too. I gotta wear welder's glasses to freakin' check email, d00d... It's the best," said the greasy yongster between mouthfuls of pizza.

      "Hey, did you up your typematic rate on the keyboard yet?" his friend asked excitedly. "One guy on the forums got his up to 1200 csp. That's uber as shit..." His words trailed off as the nubile 17 year-old waitress passed the geeks' table.

      "..." remarked Pete, the greaser.

    • Why not overclock other things?-User. (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      "Why not overclock network cards as well as CPU and graphics cards?"'

      Hew! Why not sound cards, so that only our dogs can hear them?

      Or our TV cards so that we can watch TV faster.

      Or our mice so that darn cat's unable to catch it.

      There are some things that overclocking will really do nothing for, and just increase cost and complexity.

    • Re:Why not overclock other things? (Score:5, Funny)

      by Tandoori Haggis ( 662404 ) on Sunday March 21, 2004 @11:11AM (#8627482)
      How do you overclock the user?

    • A 4 inches hard dick are'nt good. Push your errection potential to limit OverCock it to 12 inches then.

    • Overclocking a modem (Score:5, Funny)

      by avij ( 105924 ) * on Sunday March 21, 2004 @02:07PM (#8628513) Homepage
      I was a sysop for a BBS back in the dark ages before Internet, and one of users once asked me if it was possible to overclock a modem to get higher speeds. I promptly answered: "Do you have an external modem? Good, just replace your current transformer with something that gives you more volts for your modem." He thanked for advice and logged off.

      He never called back.

      Why yes, I do like reading BOFH stories [ntk.net], why do you ask?
  • I remember reading about something similar to this using florinert and liquid nitrogen. It must be nice to have more money than sense, because for the amount of money they spend on the cooling equipment, they could have bought "bleeding edge" hardware. But I am not an overclocker either.
    • I remember this article too. Do you happen to remember the part where they realized that florinert has a rather high solidifying temperature? As I recall, the liquid nitrogen turned the heniously expensive florinert into florinert gel that ended the experiment.
    • Um, there are no 5.1GHz Prescotts for sale anywhere, nor are there likely to be anytime soon. Essentially they were achieving something that could not be purchased for any amount of money off the shelf.

      I had my overclocking phase, but realized that I really wasn't getting that much more out of it that justified the time and energy expended and the issues that I had to deal with.

    • The ./ article [slashdot.org] and the site [akiba-pc.com]

  • Google Cache (Score:4, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 21, 2004 @10:50AM (#8627370)
    http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:M3MveYmm8lQJ: www.vr-zone.com/%3Fi%3D618%26p%3D1++site:www.vr-zo ne.com+cascade&hl=de&ie=UTF-8

  • Michael's computers... (Score:5, Funny)

    by YahoKa ( 577942 ) on Sunday March 21, 2004 @10:54AM (#8627388)
    Sounds suspiciously like they stole the technology from Michael's computers...
  • 11 comments and the site is down. guess that cooler failed the test!
  • I have done something similar but I used a fridge cooling coil on my cooling mount on the processor, I gained up to 4ghz on my rig... was pretty fun

    although, the computer isn't really mobile having a mini-fridge's heating coils/compressor outside of the case!

  • What about thermal stress? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Too much cold can be just as bad as too much heat..
    • Thermal stress is about temperature gradient. If you don't cool evenly then yes the thing might just shatter. Since semiconductors are designed for good thermal flow in the first place this shouldn't be a problem, so long as you aren't just plunging the thing from +250 to -100 instantly.
  • A system that cools to -110C does really seem "ultimate" to me since absolute zero is -273C.
  • Because that system is toast. And smoking. And there's a puddle of liquified metal under the rack.

    Anyone got another link?

  • This reminded me of another extreme hobby, BBQ lighting [ambrosiasw.com] by George Goble [archive.org], who also happens to be a systems engineer (go figure).

    To do something just to show that it can be done is one thing, but I don't think anyone should seriously consider doing this for any other reason than to merely say "I did it".

    And for those asking "why so cold", I can answer that one, it has to do with total thermal inertia, and thermal gradients. Basically, the larger the temprature difference, the faster heat will attempt to

    • Re:BBQ anyone? (Score:1, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      your explanation of low temperature benefits deserves a "C" at best.
    • Wasn't there an episode of Home Improvement where Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor lit a barbecue grille with LOX like that?
    • Some years ago tried overclocking a '486 by watercooling it. I soldered two brass tubes to a copper plate and mounted it to my CPU. Worked very well: the processor stayed at or below room temperature (the tank was open with sponge top and a small DC fan: it was essentially an evaporative cooler) and I got about a 30% boost. Not bad for the time. Had to remember to fill the tank every few days, though, but considering the price of the things back then (and the real value of the extra performance) I consi
  • This is the ultimate cooling system:

    1. Walk up to Tyra Banks.
    2. Drop "How would you like to be a model?" on her.
    3. Seek shelter.

  • Why not use backside thinning (Score:5, Interesting)

    by G4from128k ( 686170 ) on Sunday March 21, 2004 @11:12AM (#8627488)
    These techniques seem like brute force schemes to deal with the thermal resistance of chip packages -- you have to cool the heatsink to -110C in order to keep the "intel inside" at less than +60C). Why not use backside thinning [arizona.edu]. to bring the hot circuits of the processor within microns of a high coolant flux chamber. Backside thinning could get the coolant to within 10 microns of the junctions. If the CCD people can thin a massive 2k x 2k CCDs (the die is bigger than 1" square), I'm sure an enterprising overclocker could thin a Pentium.

  • why bother? (Score:5, Funny)

    by attonitus ( 533238 ) on Sunday March 21, 2004 @11:21AM (#8627551)
    For cheap [winnipeg.mb.ca] cooling for 6 months of the year, just move to Winnipeg [umanitoba.ca] and stick your PC on the porch.

    Won't work in the summer, but you'll be too busy trying to scrape mosquitos out of your cooling fan to care.

  • Isn't it a bit dangerous to cool a chip to -120?

  • too many components... (Score:3, Funny)

    by yulek ( 202118 ) on Sunday March 21, 2004 @11:37AM (#8627649) Homepage Journal
    if you have a million components and each of them has the probability of failing once in a million... you have a problem.

    that's why i like heat sinks. they can only fail if you fuck up their installation. or if the fan fails. or if the power to the fan fails... hmm...

  • Tom's Hardware reaches 5.25 GHz (Score:3, Interesting)

    by deja206 ( 711205 ) on Sunday March 21, 2004 @12:03PM (#8627802) Homepage

    Now this [tomshardware.com] is the ultimate cooling system... =)

    The last part of the video (the flower thing) is even scary!

  • The only... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Creepy Crawler ( 680178 ) on Sunday March 21, 2004 @12:49PM (#8628138)
    The only way to cool is not to get hot.

    Go C3.

  • Beyond design limits? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Leomania ( 137289 ) on Sunday March 21, 2004 @12:59PM (#8628196) Homepage
    While I don't work at a microprocessor company, I do work on the physical implementation of mixed-signal ASICs and I'm surprised these CPUs can work at -110C. As I recall even military limits only go down to -50C (at the maximum allowable voltage, usually no more than +10% of nominal) for design timing closure; beyond this (higher voltage and/or lower temperatures) the flip-flop to flip-flop paths may get fast enough to result in a "hold-time violation" . This is when the signal from one flip-flop reaches a downstream flip-flop so quickly that it is registered one clock-cycle early (basically, it is captured on the same clock edge as it was launched). This is most critical on timing paths with no combinational logic (occurs often in shift registers and cross-clock domain synchronizers) and is further complicated by clock distribution networks that take advantage of "useful skew" to borrow time from one timing path for use on another. I'd be surprised if even CPUs were designed with enough hold-time margin built-in to handle -110C.

    The other variable is the fabrication process corner, so assuming the CPU isn't on the edge of being "fast" there could be some hold-time margin on a given chip to allow this kind of cooling to result in a working processor. Still, I'm kinda surprised it works at that temperature with any reliability.

    - Leo
  • Ultimate Cooling System ???

    Yeah right. There's no way this thing can top a quality speed-demon from Michael's Computers.
  • I posted this at "2004-03-20 14:04:14", I usually don't whine about it but as it is the second time in a row in a short time =).

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